Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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This is a simple post to show my own opinion on this matter, not intended to cause offense or to be a troll post.
  • Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
At my own level, I have not seen any Baton Pass Teams that worked properly, however, from looking at some replays and spectating, I can see that this may become a problem in the future. It is my understanding that the Metagame should be free to evolve based on play and current dominant strategy, which would seemingly suggest that this is simply another dominant strategy that the game should evolve around, however, In this case, there is so little room for variation in counters to this, due to the aforementioned Scolipede and Espeon, as well as Sylveon, that, if left unchecked, would cause the metagame to become these teams, counters to these teams, and nothing else. Even then, the specific counters to these may not be viable except in combating this, and as such, the Baton Pass Chain may still work.
  • If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
I believe the main problem here is not Baton Pass, nor is it the Pokemon that are able to use it. While Espeon and Sylveon are relatively safe to set up with and Scollipede can boost tremendously in a single turn, these on their own can be dealt with in a number of ways. The Problem is when these Pokemon, and a few others combine. The entire chain, once complete, can allow practically anything to sweep entire teams with ease, let alone some of the more powerful pokemon that don't need the boosts. It is My Opinion that the chains themselves hold the problem, not simply Boost Passing.
  • Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
While I do think that this would work, I also feel that such a ban would cause a lot of frustration, and is going too far to ensure that this style does not destroy the metagame. There are other, less extreme solutions.
  • Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
Again, I feel that this would be taking the ban too far. The Move itself has other uses, such as the previously stated Pursuit escape, or Simple passing of boosts, which is it's main use. Again, the problem comes from the chains of boosts, getting something to levels not meant for man t comprehend.
  • Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
I feel a semi-complex ban is appropriate here. If we simple neuter the numbers of Pokemon that can carry Baton-Pass, we can stop the entire play-style without having to attack the usability of certain Pokemon within the current Metagame.

As such, I propose a limit on the Number of Pokemon carrying baton pass, whether this be 1, 2 or more is fine, however, I do not think any more than 3 should be able to carry the move. I feel a Maximum of 2 different Pokemon should be able to carry Baton Pass at any given time.
 
You lead with anything, I lead with Scarf Galvantula
I am obviously doing sticky web, so you switch in Espeon.
Instead I do Bug Buzz, because your move was so obvious.

How's Espeon looking now?
Chillin cause instead of switching in espeon, they switched in Zapdos, murdered galvantula, defogged your web away and went right back to boosting
 
I don't understand the backlash on nerfing baton pass. It has always been a situational gimmick, now with scolipede it has become tough to deal with. It is so random that you really dont expect baton pass while teambuilding. Carrying moves to counter this seems like dead-weight most of the time.
 
This game demonstrates how Scolipede can set up multiple times with ease, and issue an effortless victory.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113618218

These next gameplay videos shows how Scolipede overcomes offensive pressure by the likes of Mega Heracross, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, etc, and again how easily Scolipede can rebuild the chain. (All mistakes are my own.)http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112746268http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113611192

Scolipede makes it "not fun" and tanks x3 Shell Smash Cloyster. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112747406

Scolipede embarrasses x3 Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112746268
"set up multiple times with ease" = Had to baton pass just speed boosts in the first time, was against a scarfed hydro pump in the second... both of which could be easily done with a Ninjask.
"how Scolipede overcomes offensive pressure from M-Pinsir and Talonflame" = Scolipede wasnt in the field when neither of these appeared. "Seeing a Scolipede counter and leading with something else" doesnt equal Scolipede overcoming offensive pressure. Also your opponent used Stealth Rock against a Scolipede... pretty sure that counts as a big mistake too.
"tanks x3 shell smash cloyster" = lost over 50% health from an unboosted move, baton passed before any shell smashes happened, then the cloyster did negligible damage because he got burnt before attacking and even missed the third rock blast. Cloyster didnt even get a third shell smash by the way.
"embarasses 3x dragon dance Char-X" = Couldnt keep sub up against a 1x dragon dance, but then the opponent decided to randomly use more dragon dances instead of breaking more subs, dooming himself. Again, Scolipede didnt even face a 3x dragon dance.
Are you just posting lots of replays in the hopes of no one bothering with them and going "woah, Scoliped tanked +6 Cloyster? Scolipede
OP!" ?

Scolipede is not broken because you can easily kill it at turn 1, just dont click the replay guys believe in me pls : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112291911
 
Ok I've only posted a few times but have read a lot of this thread. To me it seems the biggest problem is scolipede's ability to pass +2 defense and +2 speed. Why not ban Iron Defense? Nothing else but Scolipede uses this move. BP should be easier to handle without that Dfense boost
 
Ok I've only posted a few times but have read a lot of this thread. To me it seems the biggest problem is scolipede's ability to pass +2 defense and +2 speed. Why not ban Iron Defense? Nothing else but Scolipede uses this move. BP should be easier to handle without that Dfense boost
Aggron, Mew, Bronzong, and even Durant can use ID effectively. So an ID ban most likely won't be considered.

I'd like to get back on track and return to the most important point. If we're going to cap Baton Pass users, should the cap be 2, 3, or 4?
 
"set up multiple times with ease" = Scolipede is not broken because you can easily kill it at turn 1, just dont click the replay guys believe in me pls : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112291911
I've looked at this video. Whoever was using Scolipede there, I'm sorry to say, was clearly not experienced enough to make your statement valid. A good player would know that Nidoking has fire attacks and would work around it via Protect and Subsitute. While it might not have been able to setup defences, that was not the time to do so. They should have setup the speed first and passed accordingly. Please show us a video vs. someone who is more experienced with a Baton Pass team


Aggron, Mew, Bronzong, and even Durant can use ID effectively. So an ID ban most likely won't be considered.

I'd like to get back on track and return to the most important point. If we're going to cap Baton Pass users, should the cap be 2, 3, or 4?
4. 3 or less has already been established cripples the team too much. We were looking to nerf Baton Bass, not throw it back to UU
 
"set up multiple times with ease" = Had to baton pass just speed boosts in the first time, was against a scarfed hydro pump in the second... both of which could be easily done with a Ninjask.
"how Scolipede overcomes offensive pressure from M-Pinsir and Talonflame" = Scolipede wasnt in the field when neither of these appeared. "Seeing a Scolipede counter and leading with something else" doesnt equal Scolipede overcoming offensive pressure. Also your opponent used Stealth Rock against a Scolipede... pretty sure that counts as a big mistake too.
"tanks x3 shell smash cloyster" = lost over 50% health from an unboosted move, baton passed before any shell smashes happened, then the cloyster did negligible damage because he got burnt before attacking and even missed the third rock blast. Cloyster didnt even get a third shell smash by the way.
"embarasses 3x dragon dance Char-X" = Couldnt keep sub up against a 1x dragon dance, but then the opponent decided to randomly use more dragon dances instead of breaking more subs, dooming himself. Again, Scolipede didnt even face a 3x dragon dance.
Are you just posting lots of replays in the hopes of no one bothering with them and going "woah, Scoliped tanked +6 Cloyster? Scolipede
OP!" ?

Scolipede is not broken because you can easily kill it at turn 1, just dont click the replay guys believe in me pls : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112291911
I disagree Scolipede doesn't die in turn one unless you have out a special attacker, Talonflame, Pinsir. If those are not out Scolipede doesn't usually die
 
I've looked at this video. Whoever was using Scolipede there, I'm sorry to say, was clearly not experienced enough to make your statement valid.
Thats the point...
The re-posted replay is almost as bad as saying Scolipede tanks 3x shell smashes when it lost over 50% hp from a single unboosted move and never faced the Cloyster again.
 
Has the possibility of limiting the number of boosted stats on a single Pokemon be discussed?

Explanation for why I think it's a better choice than other solutions:
Capping the number of Pokemon with Baton Pass on a team creates confusion over whether the cap should be 2, 3, or 4, and may not fix the problem (as Baton Passers can still boost their speed, both of their defenses, their attacking stat of choice (almost always SpA), and avoid phazing, even with just two, and it gets worse at 3 and 4) and also makes baton pass teams impossible (as 2 members isn't a team, and 3 or 4 members is overpowered and is still able to be just as matchup-based as before). Banning Baton Pass also makes BP teams completely impossible. Implementing complex bans such as Speed Boost + Magic Bounce or Magic Bounce + Stored Power also likely doesn't fix the problem, as it creates emphasis on Pokemon even less viable on regular teams, such as Smeargle + Mr. Mime, or is sidestepped by a combination of Agility Zapdos, a physical defense booster, Sylveon, and Espeon.

How it would work:
Unless it has been proven to be just as bad or kill Baton Pass completely, I think we should cap the number of stats able to be boosted (or possibly just changed, I don't think it really matters) on a single Pokemon to 3. This way, Baton Passers have to choose between boosting their Speed and their defenses, their Speed, one of their defenses, and their attacking stat, or their attacking stat and their defenses. If they choose the first, their attacks are noticeably weaker and easier to be walled, and they can also be killed easier by Stall with Trick + Status Orb. If they opt for the second, their other defensive stat is less and you can muscle through them a lot more easily with a hard-hitting attacker in that stat. Finally, if they pick the latter, you can outspeed them and wear them down a lot quicker. If we cap the number of stats that can be changed at all, they could also be affected negatively by moves and abilities that drop the opponent's stats (although this would make Shell Smash confusing, so it probably shouldn't be done).

Example:
If you didn't understand the middle part or what I meant by capping the number of stat boosts, here's some exemples:

Pokemon 1 has x4 Speed, x2 Special Attack, and x4 Special Defense. It can continue to obtain boosts in these three stats, but it cannot obtain boosts in Defense or Attack.

Pokemon 2 has x1.5 Speed, x2 Special Attack, x2 Special Defense, and x2 Defense. This is impossible with the clause.

Pokemon 3 has x2 Speed, x2 Special Attack, x2 Attack, and x0.75 Evasion. This is possible if it's only a cap on stats that can be boosted, but not possible if it's a cap on stats that can be changed.
 
Scolipede is not broken because you can easily kill it at turn 1, just dont click the replay guys believe in me pls : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112291911
A player with a 1045 ranking with Pidgeot (unusable outside RU and unviable outside NU), Lapras (unviable in higher tiers), Venomoth (usable but I doubt is viable) and Omastar (barely viable and in other conditions) ptoves that Bp teams aren't broken.

In general, to prove that the team can deal with BP with a replay, better have:
-A good rating. 1400-1500 is enough.
-Your team being composed of viable pokemon.
-Not having unusable pokemon. And yes, I make a difference between unusable and unviable.

And a remainder, any nerf that we are doing to the OU metagame aects any lower metagame behind it.

Also, Baton Pass usage:
OU: 1,67%
OU ased on 1760 stats: 2,23%.
 
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So say we try three. It turns out that it fails miserably now. What do we do? Raise it to four. If that is too OP, then we find another solution. Simple as that. Except the other solution.
Or go the other way and slowly take one away
You do know you can also have other members on your team, right? Covering stuff like Talonflame and Aegislash is what those are for. You don't hear people saying that VenuTran cores are unviable simply because Kyurem-B, Pinsir, and Landorus can break through them. And although Talonflame is a problem, I don't find Aegislash to be much a threat unless it carries Flash Cannon or Iron Head, both of which are rare. But if you really have trouble with it, just pack a decent counter, it's not that hard.

If you haven't been winning matches with a BP team of 3 users, you simply haven't been playing very well, or your team isn't very good.
...

Thanks for going out of your way to try and insult me, it really helps prove your point...

Anyways, yeah in a perfect world they would send out Aegislash and you would just switch to a counter, but you forget that they are human, not AI. They will not sit there and let you kill their Aegislash,especially after seeing the team preview and that your team most likely uses the BP strategy. Esp/Scol run the risk of taking a SE priority hit if you try to pass any stats to switch out which forces you to use a raw switch. And if you just used Sub, ID, CM without passing it, you essentially just wasted a turn while they're Aegislash/talongflame has a free turn to Swords Dance, Shadow Ball, Brave Bird, etc. on your switch.

And besides all this theory crafting, my original intention was to state that limiting BP to only 3 per team is a huge nerf because it only takes 1 pokemon to counter all 3. So please, if you respond, respond to what my original post was about and not our pretend, "what if", battle scenario. Thanks
 
In general, to prove that the team can deal with BP with a replay, better have:
-A good rating. 1400-1500 is enough.
-Your team being composed of viable pokemon.
-Not having unusable pokemon. And yes, I make a difference between unusable and unviable.
- 1400~1500 is not enough, try 1760+
- One replay is useless and wouldnt prove a team can deal with BP. We're way past that point and Haunter has already stated that multiple times.
- That replay was re-posted(from a dozen or so pages ago) as sarcasm, since all the replays I quoted are also either horribly mislabelled or won through consecutive bad plays by the opponent.
- Reading the thread helps a lot.
 
Haven't viewed this post in a while, but last time I checked there was a strong argument stating that Baton Pass needed a nerf because of its over-centralizing effect on stall teams. Baton Pass is generally considered too powerful against stall teams, which is why it is in need of a nerf.

If this truly is the reason we are nerfing it (not because we dislike it or think its cheap), then we need to focus on making it weaker against stall specifically. This is my suggestion:

Ban the use of Ingrain on Smeargle.
This has been done before in gen 3 and was a great way to reduce the effectiveness of Baton Pass chains then.

Why it works to make Baton Pass weaker against Stall should be rather obvious. Without Ingrain, phasing is a reliable way to beat Baton Pass teams. Now, before you go on and complain about Soundproof or Magic Bounce, please hear me out:

Currently Skarmory, Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, Snorlax, Sigilyph, Volcarona, Aerodactyl and Crobat are all viable users of Whirlwind (some of the latter may not be the best options on stall teams however, so lets focus on the first 4).

Skarmory, Hippowdon, Mandibuzz and Snorlax are all great stall pokemon and great users of Whirlwind. Their only counter on a Baton Pass team is Espeon, who can reflect their phasing. However, each of these Pokemon can beat Espeon in a 1 on 1 situation because they are physical attackers. Espeon cannot stay in to Calm Mind and will eventually die to powerful physical attacks like Brave Bird, Earthquake, Knock Off, and Return. The end result is that mispredicting a few Whirlwinds with Espeon, will quickly lead to a dead Espeon and the Baton Pass team is defeated.

Ahh, but you Espeon can setup against any of the above after a few Defensive boosts! ... So why does Espeon have defensive boosts? Leading with a phaser gives you a huge advantage against Baton Pass teams, if they try to boost, you phase them. If they try to Baton Pass to Espeon, you hit Espeon hard. The match is no longer an auto win, its a skillful mind game that both teams are involved in. If you let Scolipede get boosts, you will be in trouble, so you need to play smart and phase early and often.

Lets look at another great option for stall teams, Red Card. Currently Red Card is best used on Sturdy users like Foretress, Donphan or Skarmory, all of which are gladly placed on a stall team. Now typically Red Card is rendered useless because it isn't activated when you get 1hko and Ingrain prevents phasing anyway. But, without Ingrain, Stall teams and reliably beat Baton Pass. Now, before you go on and complain about how simply phasing a team resets them and doesn't beat them, please hear me out:

Seismic Toss and Nightshade are both common moves on stall teams. They are able to deal significant damage to all Baton Pass users except Vaporeon. Simply spamming Seismic Toss will force the Baton Pass team to take significant damage while acquiring boosts. On the special side, setting up 3 Calm Minds requires Sylveon to take 3 hits at least (assuming you used Vaporeon to pass a sub and protect it on the switch). Another 2 Calm Minds can be acquired from Espeon or Mr. Mime. Now, the Baton Pass is ready to sweep, despite the majority of its team being at relatively low HP. Assuming you need at least 3 Calm Mind boosts to reliably 2hko Chansey, Sylveon and Espeon are probably relatively low health. Now, if you introduce the idea of Red Card at this point, the game is easily won. Sturdy survives the Stored Power, phases the team, and now they must start again. This time, they cannot beat the Seismic Toss / Nightshade spam. Specially, they cannot get enough special boosts to be able to defeat Chansey or Blissey.

Lastly, we should give special mention to Deo-d, who can work well on stall teams. The combination of Knock Off / Seismic Toss + Taunt is a great way to shut down Baton Pass teams. If they switch in Espeon, they will face dying to Seismic Toss before they can Calm Mind enough to kill Deo-D. If they switch out, they face being Taunted. Once Sylveon or Vaporeon is taunted, the stall team can switch to a defensive counter, and start playing aggressive (i.e. putting down hazards or statusing the threat, specifically Sylveon who can hurt Deo-d with Hyper Voice). At this point, the Baton Pass team will likely switch out, to which you ultimately bring back in Deo-D and repeat the process.

In conclusion: If you want a simpler solution to nerf Baton Pass we need to solve a simpler problem. If Baton Pass is overpowered because of its unfair advantage against Stall teams, we should focus on making it weaker to Stall teams. This is most easily done by following the precedent set in Gen 3, and Banning the use of Ingrain on Smeargle. This allows Red Card and Phasing to be used in conjunction with Seismic Toss and Entry Hazards to beat Baton Pass. See above for details.
 

Jukain

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Hey um seeing garbage like this
I've looked at this video. Whoever was using Scolipede there, I'm sorry to say, was clearly not experienced enough to make your statement valid. A good player would know that Nidoking has fire attacks and would work around it via Protect and Subsitute. While it might not have been able to setup defences, that was not the time to do so. They should have setup the speed first and passed accordingly. Please show us a video vs. someone who is more experienced with a Baton Pass team



4. 3 or less has already been established cripples the team too much. We were looking to nerf Baton Bass, not throw it back to UU
If it is broken and happens to be unviable after we ban it, it doesn't matter.
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
I don't think many people are complaining because they think Baton Pass is impossible to counter. I see a few people claiming that baton pass is broken because it beats stall teams or offensive teams or whatever. Baton Pass is not countered by teams. Baton Pass is countered by individual pokemon.

A whole style of team being hard countered by a few individual pokemon, e.g prankster taunters or anything with haze, is a major problem. The fact that baton pass is so easily countered prevents it from becoming particularly common. It remains at that point where it just rare enough that it might not be worth preparing for. If it becomes much more common than that, it will quickly become bad. The result of all this is that a match involving baton pass is pretty much over before it starts, the result being determined essentially by luck. If it's not over before it starts, then more often than not, the result is still determined by luck, as one player just repeatedly goes for crits. Altogether, I don't think this is fun for anybody, other than those who enjoy the suffering of others (then again I suppose that is most of us).

A game involving baton pass is essentially an entirely different game. It bears little resemblance to ordinary pokemon matches. In preparing for it, we must weaken our teams for matches that are actually fun and not predetermined.

As for how to deal with baton pass, my preference would be for a simple ban on the move baton pass, although I suppose I shouldn't let my distaste for smashpass affect me. If we are not to limit smashpass teams in any way at all, I feel the limit has to be 3 baton passers. Running two smashpassers and something like a dual screens espeon with baton pass is not unheard of either, so I don't know if including espeon in the ban is likely to be useful. Scolipede much the same, as it is viable as a non-passer, or a short passer, and has an inferior but not that inferior replacement in ninjask.
 
We want BP to be usable, but not overpowered. It's not like SwagPlay where the only options were to ban Swagger or make a ridiculously complex ban. It's more like the Leppa+Recycle thing, where we Haunter made a questionable ban in lieu of banning Slowbro, Gothitelle, etc. Of course, almost nobody is advocating a straight ban of BP.

I've been playing with an alt with teams of 2-5 Baton Passers. 2 is far too weak, as expected. 5 is OP, but we're all in agreement on that. The question comes down to whether 4 should be allowed. I was able to win ~55% with 4BP and ~40% with 3BP at around 1400 on the ladder over about fifty battles each, basically following a flowchart.

As for how to deal with baton pass, my preference would be for a simple ban on the move baton pass, although I suppose I shouldn't let my distaste for smashpass affect me. If we are not to limit smashpass teams in any way at all, I feel the limit has to be 3 baton passers. Running two smashpassers and something like a dual screens espeon with baton pass is not unheard of either, so I don't know if including espeon in the ban is likely to be useful. Scolipede much the same, as it is viable as a non-passer, or a short passer, and has an inferior but not that inferior replacement in ninjask.
Smashpass is viable in its own right, which is one of the reasons BP will end up staying in some form. Ninjask is weak enough that a Scolipede ban would cripple BP teams.

Either ban 5 Baton Passers AND ban Ingrain Smeargle or ban 4 Baton Passers. BP will remain viable in both cases.
 
Haven't viewed this post in a while, but last time I checked there was a strong argument stating that Baton Pass needed a nerf because of its over-centralizing effect on stall teams. Baton Pass is generally considered too powerful against stall teams, which is why it is in need of a nerf.

If this truly is the reason we are nerfing it (not because we dislike it or think its cheap), then we need to focus on making it weaker against stall specifically. This is my suggestion:
Ban the use of Ingrain on Smeargle. This has been done before in gen 3 and was a great way to reduce the effectiveness of Baton Pass chains then.

Why it works to make Baton Pass weaker against Stall should be rather obvious. Without Ingrain, phasing is a reliable way to beat Baton Pass teams. Now, before you go on and complain about Soundproof or Magic Bounce, please hear me out:

Currently Skarmory, Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, Snorlax, Sigilyph, Volcarona, Aerodactyl and Crobat are all viable users of Whirlwind (some of the latter may not be the best options on stall teams however, so lets focus on the first 4).

Skarmory, Hippowdon, Mandibuzz and Snorlax are all great stall pokemon and great users of Whirlwind. Their only counter on a Baton Pass team is Espeon, who can reflect their phasing. However, each of these Pokemon can beat Espeon in a 1 on 1 situation because they are physical attackers. Espeon cannot stay in to Calm Mind and will eventually die to powerful physical attacks like Brave Bird, Earthquake, Knock Off, and Return. The end result is that mispredicting a few Whirlwinds with Espeon, will quickly lead to a dead Espeon and the Baton Pass team is defeated.

Ahh, but you Espeon can setup against any of the above after a few Defensive boosts! ... So why does Espeon have defensive boosts? Leading with a phaser gives you a huge advantage against Baton Pass teams, if they try to boost, you phase them. If they try to Baton Pass to Espeon, you hit Espeon hard. The match is no longer an auto win, its a skillful mind game that both teams are involved in. If you let Scolipede get boosts, you will be in trouble, so you need to play smart and phase early and often.

Lets look at another great option for stall teams, Red Card. Currently Red Card is best used on Sturdy users like Foretress, Donphan or Skarmory, all of which are gladly placed on a stall team. Now typically Red Card is rendered useless because it isn't activated when you get 1hko and Ingrain prevents phasing anyway. But, without Ingrain, Stall teams and reliably beat Baton Pass. Now, before you go on and complain about how simply phasing a team resets them and doesn't beat them, please hear me out:

Seismic Toss and Nightshade are both common moves on stall teams. They are able to deal significant damage to all Baton Pass users except Vaporeon. Simply spamming Seismic Toss will force the Baton Pass team to take significant damage while acquiring boosts. On the special side, setting up 3 Calm Minds requires Sylveon to take 3 hits at least (assuming you used Vaporeon to pass a sub and protect it on the switch). Another 2 Calm Minds can be acquired from Espeon or Mr. Mime. Now, the Baton Pass is ready to sweep, despite the majority of its team being at relatively low HP. Assuming you need at least 3 Calm Mind boosts to reliably 2hko Chansey, Sylveon and Espeon are probably relatively low health. Now, if you introduce the idea of Red Card at this point, the game is easily won. Sturdy survives the Stored Power, phases the team, and now they must start again. This time, they cannot beat the Seismic Toss / Nightshade spam. Specially, they cannot get enough special boosts to be able to defeat Chansey or Blissey.

Lastly, we should give special mention to Deo-d, who can work well on stall teams. The combination of Knock Off / Seismic Toss + Taunt is a great way to shut down Baton Pass teams. If they switch in Espeon, they will face dying to Seismic Toss before they can Calm Mind enough to kill Deo-D. If they switch out, they face being Taunted. Once Sylveon or Vaporeon is taunted, the stall team can switch to a defensive counter, and start playing aggressive (i.e. putting down hazards or statusing the threat, specifically Sylveon who can hurt Deo-d with Hyper Voice). At this point, the Baton Pass team will likely switch out, to which you ultimately bring back in Deo-D and repeat the process.

In conclusion: If you want a simpler solution to nerf Baton Pass we need to solve a simpler problem. If Baton Pass is overpowered because of its unfair advantage against Stall teams, we should focus on making it weaker to Stall teams. This is most easily done by following the precedent set in Gen 3, and Banning the use of Ingrain on Smeargle. This allows Red Card and Phasing to be used in conjunction with Seismic Toss and Entry Hazards to beat Baton Pass. See above for details.
After reading what Hiphiphooray said, I have to agree with him. Banning ingrain on Smeargle has practically no collateral damage and allows the full baton pass teams to still exist, while opening the strategy to common answers and some interesting mind games. The idea revolved in just protecting stall teams from BP, but the tools are far from exclusive to stall.

It is relatively less complex of a ban than limiting the amount of baton passers in a team and also saves the trouble of going in extensive test to find which is the optimal number of passers to allow. Ban Ingrain on Smeargle.
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Banning Ingrain on Smeargle does not fix the problem, since Espeon is the main reason why you can't phaze in the first place. Also, 3 BPers can still shit on defensive/Stall teams by themselves, especially since they now have room to run a couple wallbreakers or whatever to deal with specific threats.

I personally think we either need to Ban the combination of Baton Pass + Speed Boost + Magic Bounce on the same team or Limit the amount of Baton Passers to 2.
 
I have seen many baton pass, one in particular struck me. Geomancy Smeargle with Dark void and Cotton guard that boost all your stats and pass on the baton container Espeon who owned the stored power and dazzling gleem. If you want you could also make a chain with Scolipede who was irondefense before moving on Smeargle or always on espeon but I was just scared. Whereas the opponent player prepares the team so that it can not undergo Taunt by Sableye or Thundurus that you might find in these situations having to stop doing so that the chain is fulfilled. in any case, the danger is always espeon which is sending back potential T-Wave or taunt. Ever since I saw such a thing I keep in team Tyranitar with Dragon tail in such a way as to break any chains at the start.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
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Haven't read most of the thread, but has anybody mentioned haze at all? It goes through subs and is a simple solution to BP. Unaware quagsire can come in on a boosted attack and just haze them away. And if you're really afraid of BP you can bring prankster murkrow w/ haze for priority.
Yes they have. Quagsire can still die to Stored Power after enough boosts gives it a certain BP (can't remember how much but it was like 150 or something, which takes like 5 turns to get) or Sylveon's Hyper Voice (2HKOs Quagsire) and Murkrow is shit.
 
The debate now is whether to nerf BP chains or make them irrelevant in this meta. A cap at 4 will cause the former, and a cap at 3 the latter; of course, both caps would need suspect testing and Smogon would need a way to track BP teams' W/L.

A game involving baton pass is essentially an entirely different game. It bears little resemblance to ordinary pokemon matches.
So the choice to either nerf or cripple BP chains depends on whether the community wants a traditional meta (what it's had since RBY) or the new, exploit-a-game-mechanic meta.
 
Ok I've only posted a few times but have read a lot of this thread. To me it seems the biggest problem is scolipede's ability to pass +2 defense and +2 speed. Why not ban Iron Defense? Nothing else but Scolipede uses this move. BP should be easier to handle without that Dfense boost
When suggesting potential solutions, it's important to consider whether or not they make a significant difference to the problem at hand. The problem is not Scolipede alone, and removing iron defense would by no means be a "nerf". It's also a bit unreasonable, since iron defense is not even close to broken (perhaps one of the furthest things away from it). A ban such as this would also set a precedent justifying the banning of all set up moves, including dragon dance, calm mind etc. The Pokemon community and 99% of competitive players would not want that to happen.
 

Punchshroom

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As for how to deal with baton pass, my preference would be for a simple ban on the move baton pass, although I suppose I shouldn't let my distaste for smashpass affect me. If we are not to limit smashpass teams in any way at all, I feel the limit has to be 3 baton passers. Running two smashpassers and something like a dual screens espeon with baton pass is not unheard of either, so I don't know if including espeon in the ban is likely to be useful. Scolipede much the same, as it is viable as a non-passer, or a short passer, and has an inferior but not that inferior replacement in ninjask.
You say this, and yet you still look at the limitation of BPers? Have you considered my clause?

Not that I don't see any flaws with my clause. For some reason the upper mods want to keep ChainPass around, which my clause effectively kills instead of nerfing, but I won't argue against it. There is also the fact that it alters game mechanics, which is a bit frowned upon aside from Sleep Clause, which does exist due to Nintendo's VGC rules and stuff. The biggest difference between my clause and the limitation of BPers per team, aside from game mechanics changing, is that the limitation of BPers at least allows ChainPass to still be usable, albeit manageable (apparently the optimal number is still not set in stone, as I predicted). Whether you are fine with ChainPass staying in the meta is up to you.
 
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