Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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Have we ever discussed taunt + s-toss deo-d? s-toss allows it to outduel most BP users, most notably espeon, and taunt allows it to immediately threaten everyone else anyway due to bypassing everything but magic bounce. Resisting stored power and being able to take hyper voices somewhat well is also pretty notable.
+1 4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 281-331 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
I don't know if that is 'somewhat well', Espeon with 12 boosts (+4 Def&Speed with 2 CM's, probably not the hardest to get) and Sylveon at +1 pose pretty good threats to Deo-D. Scolipede doesn't need any boosts to outspeed, and if it passes +1 speed to Espeon on taunt then you've got a decent trouble on your hands, since it can begin setting up CM. Also, +1 smeargle outspeeds so it can spore you if they pass on a predicted Seismic Toss.

Seismic Toss however does allow it to take on BP subs, since most of them are less than 100HP. So I guess I can see it as a troublesome pokemon for BP to face, but probably not all that hard to work around if it comes in a bit too late.
 
  • Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame? I believe that Full Baton Pass teams are a problem for the developmenet of the metagame
  • If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?I think that baton pass users that have abilities such as Speed boost or Prankster push Baton pass over the edge
  • Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable? I think that banning individual pokemon would make it manageable, but I would not recomend it. Many Baton Passers, are also perfectly viable in other roles.
  • Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass? No.
  • Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course. Yes, I support the indroduction a complex ban (like PokemonX+AbilityZ)
 
  • Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
    • Only if the team is not prepared for basic threats. For the real reason, we must investigate the part Baton Pass played in the previous generations.
      • Was it an issue for previous generations? No.
    • There are two things to understand with Baton Pass teams, without Magic Bounce and Speed Boost, the team is doomed to fail. Outspeeding the opponent is key.
    • Espeon was the vital part of Baton Pass in the previous Gen, where it also had access to Magic Bounce, however people were still able to get around it.
      • Mega Absol does bring the same ability to the team, adding team variance. However it does not wield Stored Power so is somewhat “less” of a threat.
    • Ninjask provided the Speed Boost passing of the previous generations, however it was easily countered due to its low defences and low health. If the Baton Pass team cannot out-speed the opposing team, they will definitely fall. This is because they are able to avoid damage.
      • This is where Speed Boost Scolipede has made its mark. Much better bulk and thus is not scared out as Ninjask was.
    • The only difference between the last generation and the mega-game are Megas and Speed Boost Scolipede.
    • The best things against Baton Pass (please note that I use Ninjask here because Scolipede’s bulk will generally resist most of the below tactics):
      • U-turn and Volt Switch – Nearly all top level OU teams have Pokemon with these moves on them. On the first turn, for example, you see Ninjask in play, it substitutes and you can break the Sub with one of the above moves, leaving it vulnerable to:
      • Priority Moves – Nearly all top level OU teams have at least one Pokemon which can fill this role. Bullet Punch or the equivalent will destroy Ninjask due to its fragility and their ability to ignore speed. If you scare Ninjask out, this allows you a chance to setup Stealth Rocks (if you are careful). This cripples Ninjask’s ability to setup next time it comes in. Scolipede only looses 1/4th of it’s health in comparison.
      • Prankster are less effective as you risk being switched in on with Espeon or Absol, however this requires the Ninjask to switch out directly. Speed is key in Baton Pass and you will now have to play around your opponents team to get Ninjask back in safely.
      • Early Taunt – As above.
      • Trick Room – as above, Speed is Key. If the team has a Ninjask active at the same time as Trick Room, it will just work in the Trick Roomer’s advantage.
      • Perish Song – Either destroys the Pokemon or breaks the Baton Chain.
      • Multi-hitting moves – typically effective against the weaker members of the team (Smeargle and Prankster Volbeat) who rely on Sashes to stay alive.
      • Haze – removes all of the team’s heard earned boosts in one easy turn.
      • Infiltrator and Sound Based Attacks – Baton Pass hide behind substitutes however due to the new Gen abilities, we have a way of combating the hiding Pokemon. Unfortunately sound doesn’t work on Mr. Mime.
    • If you count all of the Pokemon who have access to the above moves and abilities, there are a lot of ways we can deal with Baton Pass in the current Mega-game. Pokemon is not an easy game, people need to be prepared. I don’t think it’s much to ask of people, is it?
  • If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
    • Possibly Scolipede for the key reason is that it has more bulk than Ninjask. The original version of Baton Passed relied on Ninjask (as described above) creating the required speed boosts. However it is incredibly fragile.
    • Now that Scolipede is available, people don’t have to worry about switching it in and out all the time.
  • Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
    • The individual Pokemon are not over-powered and should definitely not be banned. Possibly a complex ban stopping their use of Baton Pass with their appropriate ability? However without their ability I cannot see them being used in a Baton Pass team.
  • Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
    • Definitely not: the move is fun to use and can be effective in the Competitive level. The ability to pass boosts adds more variety to the metagame. The key might be using it on a limited scale: I see nothing wrong with baton passing a pure +6 speed or attack boost to a Pokemon who can use it.
    • The opponent NEEDS to have something in their team which can counter this as most Pokemon have the ability to boost to the high levels: this just allows a bit more variety.
  • Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
    • Unsure if this is possible but is it possible to put a limitation on how many Pokemon in a team have the move? If only 3 or 4 have it, it will cause the Team to adapt.
    • Possibly banning the combination of Speed Boost Scolipede + Baton Pass as, outside of Megas, he is the only real difference between this generation and last.
 
I vote simply for a maximum of three BP'ers per team. You can still have the ultra-strong core of Scolipede/Espeon/Sylveon, but all your supporting teammates can no longer continue the chain. It limits your support of the core basically, doesn't affect quickpass, drypass, or non-pass strategies, and leaves BP chains still usable. IMO, it seems like the best solution. We could also try a limit of 4 if 3 is too little. (I doubt it though.)

Edit:

Ermagherd... we. are. passed that. Stop bringing up counters, because at least 75% of them don't reliably work, and (probably) all of them have been discussed.
Those 3 aren't very good together alone because Aegislash and Talonflame give them huge trouble and disrupt the set up pretty easily. I've been trying those exact 3 out the last few days and the only way to win using BP is if they make a dumb mistake.
 
  • Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
    • Only if the team is not prepared for basic threats. For the real reason, we must investigate the part Baton Pass played in the previous generations.
      • Was it an issue for previous generations? No.
    • There are two things to understand with Baton Pass teams, without Magic Bounce and Speed Boost, the team is doomed to fail. Outspeeding the opponent is key.
    • Espeon was the vital part of Baton Pass in the previous Gen, where it also had access to Magic Bounce, however people were still able to get around it.
      • Mega Absol does bring the same ability to the team, adding team variance. However it does not wield Stored Power so is somewhat “less” of a threat.
    • Ninjask provided the Speed Boost passing of the previous generations, however it was easily countered due to its low defences and low health. If the Baton Pass team cannot out-speed the opposing team, they will definitely fall. This is because they are able to avoid damage.
      • This is where Speed Boost Scolipede has made its mark. Much better bulk and thus is not scared out as Ninjask was.
    • The only difference between the last generation and the mega-game are Megas and Speed Boost Scolipede.
    • The best things against Baton Pass (please note that I use Ninjask here because Scolipede’s bulk will generally resist most of the below tactics):
      • U-turn and Volt Switch – Nearly all top level OU teams have Pokemon with these moves on them. On the first turn, for example, you see Ninjask in play, it substitutes and you can break the Sub with one of the above moves, leaving it vulnerable to:
      • Priority Moves – Nearly all top level OU teams have at least one Pokemon which can fill this role. Bullet Punch or the equivalent will destroy Ninjask due to its fragility and their ability to ignore speed. If you scare Ninjask out, this allows you a chance to setup Stealth Rocks (if you are careful). This cripples Ninjask’s ability to setup next time it comes in. Scolipede only looses 1/4th of it’s health in comparison.
      • Prankster are less effective as you risk being switched in on with Espeon or Absol, however this requires the Ninjask to switch out directly. Speed is key in Baton Pass and you will now have to play around your opponents team to get Ninjask back in safely.
      • Early Taunt – As above.
      • Trick Room – as above, Speed is Key. If the team has a Ninjask active at the same time as Trick Room, it will just work in the Trick Roomer’s advantage.
      • Perish Song – Either destroys the Pokemon or breaks the Baton Chain.
      • Multi-hitting moves – typically effective against the weaker members of the team (Smeargle and Prankster Volbeat) who rely on Sashes to stay alive.
      • Haze – removes all of the team’s heard earned boosts in one easy turn.
      • Infiltrator and Sound Based Attacks – Baton Pass hide behind substitutes however due to the new Gen abilities, we have a way of combating the hiding Pokemon. Unfortunately sound doesn’t work on Mr. Mime.
    • If you count all of the Pokemon who have access to the above moves and abilities, there are a lot of ways we can deal with Baton Pass in the current Mega-game. Pokemon is not an easy game, people need to be prepared. I don’t think it’s much to ask of people, is it?
  • If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
    • Possibly Scolipede for the key reason is that it has more bulk than Ninjask. The original version of Baton Passed relied on Ninjask (as described above) creating the required speed boosts. However it is incredibly fragile.
    • Now that Scolipede is available, people don’t have to worry about switching it in and out all the time.
  • Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
    • The individual Pokemon are not over-powered and should definitely not be banned. Possibly a complex ban stopping their use of Baton Pass with their appropriate ability? However without their ability I cannot see them being used in a Baton Pass team.
  • Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
    • Definitely not: the move is fun to use and can be effective in the Competitive level. The ability to pass boosts adds more variety to the metagame. The key might be using it on a limited scale: I see nothing wrong with baton passing a pure +6 speed or attack boost to a Pokemon who can use it.
    • The opponent NEEDS to have something in their team which can counter this as most Pokemon have the ability to boost to the high levels: this just allows a bit more variety.
  • Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
    • Unsure if this is possible but is it possible to put a limitation on how many Pokemon in a team have the move? If only 3 or 4 have it, it will cause the Team to adapt.
    • Possibly banning the combination of Speed Boost Scolipede + Baton Pass as, outside of Megas, he is the only real difference between this generation and last.
You know that big *** list you made of counters? Every single one except Trick Room has already been discussed, and Trick Room doesn't exactly need discussion.
  • Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame? I believe that Full Baton Pass teams are a problem for the developmenet of the metagame
  • If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?I think that baton pass users that have abilities such as Speed boost or Prankster push Baton pass over the edge
  • Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable? I think that banning individual pokemon would make it manageable, but I would not recomend it. Many Baton Passers, are also perfectly viable in other roles.
  • Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass? No.
  • Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course. Yes, I support the indroduction a complex ban (like PokemonX+AbilityZ)
And you too. And everyone else new to the thread. Please, PLEASE read at the VERY LEAST, the last ten pages of the thread before you post in here! We have 75 pages of thread, and you know why we aren't getting anywhere? Because people keep getting sidetracked by posts from people new to thread who didn't bother to read any of it! SO GET UP TO DATE BEFORE YOU POST! I haven't even been here the whole time, and I'm getting sick of people posting the same things that 50 other people posted!
Edit: And yes I realize that you would have to read some to see this post.
 
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toshimelonhead

Honey Badger don't care.
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I think HO can adapt to BP just fine. Taunt Bisharp actually works quite well against BP since it's not natural for Espeon to bounce it back and it gets plenty of chances to switch in against Sylveon, Scolilpede, and some Vaporeons. Thundy-T and Red Card are also quite effective.

Other styles I'm not so sure. Hard for stall to work against BP since stall uses hazards and status for damage and BP has no problem with those.

(EDIT): 1000th post, so as celebration, here is a BP replay.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113762331
 
You know that big *** list you made of counters? Every single one except Trick Room has already been discussed, and Trick Room doesn't exactly need discussion.
And since people keep bringing up Trick Room, allow me to dispel any idea that Trick Room can beat Baton Pass. With Trick Room, you have 4 turns of reversed speed tiers (the first turn is the turn that TR is set). The turn you set up Trick Room is the turn they substitute, and then they just begin stalling out your turns by passing to an appropriate counter. You have Reuniclus out? They let you break the sub and bring in their Special Wall. So now you can either do negligible damage, or switch out to a pokemon that can handle the pokemon in front of you, but wait, they substituted on the switch. And there goes your Trick Room cycle. So no, Trick Room does not do well against Baton Pass. At all.
 
Those 3 aren't very good together alone because Aegislash and Talonflame give them huge trouble and disrupt the set up pretty easily. I've been trying those exact 3 out the last few days and the only way to win using BP is if they make a dumb mistake.
So say we try three. It turns out that it fails miserably now. What do we do? Raise it to four. If that is too OP, then we find another solution. Simple as that. Except the other solution.
 
I think HO can adapt to BP just fine. Taunt Bisharp actually works quite well against BP since it's not natural for Espeon to bounce it back and it gets plenty of chances to switch in against Sylveon, Scolilpede, and some Vaporeons. Thundy-T and Red Card are also quite effective.

Other styles I'm not so sure. Hard for stall to work against BP since stall uses hazards and status for damage and BP has no problem with those.
The thing about modern stall teams is that they tend to be moving away from being full stall with just 6 defensive team members, because it isn't really as effective as it used to be (against all playstyles) and you often just need something on your team that has a direct and powerful offensive presence. Using your defensive mons to weaken and wall your opponents walls and attackers and paving the way for a sweep from your sweeper gives the team more utility and another win condition. Therefore, stall teams doing this have a much easier time against baton pass than they otherwise would, as they have something to punch holes in the BP team and act as a win con, while also having support like a Haze user, etc.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113941040 (me on an alt)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113950969 (next game the BP player played against was another stall team, who was also following the tend of having at least one offensive member)
 
Speed Boost + Magic Bounce/ Absolite is ONLY seen on BP teams. There's no other reason to have that combo
I'm not talking about both on the same team.

Before full BP chains, lead Swords Dance/Baton Pass Scolipede with either Sub/Protect and an attack/Spikes was pretty common. Much safer way to set up an Azumarill than Belly Drum since Speed Boost let him outspeed more often early game (so he doesn't have to rely on Aqua Jet) while Swords Dance let him run 4 attacks.

And before the huge OU speed creep this gen — Greninja, Talonflame, other priority users like Bisharp and Azumarill jumping into OU — Espeon was "fast." Calm Mind/Baton Pass with 2 attacks was pretty standard; switch Espeon in when you predict hazards, then dry BP if their Poke can hurt you or Calm Mind on the switch. Also Espeon laughs at Sableye and Whimsicott.
 
I don't think BP teams are such problems. There are a lot of answers to that. 1) Travenant ( curse go through sub and can be Batton passed) 2) Skarmory ( or any other things that can learn whirlwind or roar) 3) Attack that hit many times ( Cloyster, Breloom, Mega-Heracross ...) 4) Offensive pressure ( bring in a thing that outslow and have good priority-> you're slower, destroy sub, attack him w/ priority when sub is down)
 

Galladium

Banned deucer.
I don't think BP teams are such problems. There are a lot of answers to that. 1) Travenant ( curse go through sub and can be Batton passed) 2) Skarmory ( or any other things that can learn whirlwind or roar) 3) Attack that hit many times ( Cloyster, Breloom, Mega-Heracross ...) 4) Offensive pressure ( bring in a thing that outslow and have good priority-> you're slower, destroy sub, attack him w/ priority when sub is down)
We have already discussed counters and are now talking about ways to nerf Baton Pass. What's more, none of the counters you've mentioned work, for a number of reasons. I understand that you're new, but please read the rest of the thread before posting next time.
 
Taunt Bisharp actually works quite well against BP since it's not natural for Espeon to bounce it back and it gets plenty of chances to switch in against Sylveon
+1 0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 274-324 (101.1 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Bisharp: 202-238 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Do you even know what a Sylveon is to begin with? The only way you're threatening him with a Bisharp switch is if you can outspeed him (unlikely unless you used another taunt user to deal with batonpede) + no sub up + no iron defense + no sp atk boosts + he used wish on the switch...
 
Baton Pass are more an uncompetitive startegy than a broken one.

And starting here, we have to differenciate a "broken" and a "uncompetitive" strategy because even though we can have gthe two cases at once, it's not the same.

A broken pokemon is a pokemon that alone has no counters and has very unreliable checks that centralizes the metagame around him.

An uncompetitive startegy is an startegy that with the right support is difficult to counter by commopn pokemon in the metagame and requires many unconventional ways to defeat them that may not be present on a team.

Normally, for an starategy to be really uncompetitive, has to be succesful.

Baton pass teams are not broken because the metagame are (as afar as I'm aware) revolved around it. The problem is that if you face a full BP teams the match is decided on Turn 1 the majoprity of the time If you miss predicted, the opponent isn't likely to win. And if he lose to a BP teams, wit will probably done 6-0. There are clear counters of this startegy.

We know why BP is uncompetitive: Speed Boost Scolipede + Magic Bounce Espeon are the element that makes the strategy uncompetitive. The rest of the team can be dealt by almost every type of team except full stall (who has many problems vs a lot of teams). the solution should be involved those cheap strategies.

I find out the magic solution to this:
You can't have a pokemon with Magic Bounce and/or Absolite and more than 2/3 Baton Pass members in the same team. I don't suggest only one to allow the startegy of Baton Pass for evading Pursuit on Espeon.

With this nerf, Baton Pass can be defeated by:
-Roar, which is common in the metagame and can be adapted to some pokemon if needed to make all the boost lost.
-Whirlwind, with the same effect than Roar but with the bonus of Mr. Mime not being inmune to it
-Taunt to make the Bp teams unable to setup anymore and being forced to switch out (losing all the boosts). If someone is using Mental Herb, try to do twice.
-Encore, another great tactic to deal with Baton pass because it encores the user into one move and has the advantage of being more uncommon. Be aware of Mental herb.
-Haze is the perfect counter of BP teams (even now) but Haze is too rare in this metagame since Gen IV.
-perish Song gives a timer to Bp teams. Good idea to pair it with a ghost, Poison or Steel attacks or very strong physical attacks that are not resisted by Psychic or Fairy (specially for Mr. Mime).
-Toxic Spikes could be a deal to temporary deal with Baton pass but the startegy is counter by Substitute and Scolipede can absorb it easily.
-Priority moves except Sucker Punch are the real bane of Baton Pass. Many of the above starategies (except pseudohazing) with prankster are extremely dangerous against those teams. But apart of that, attacking priority moves are a big deal against BP teams, specially moves with strong priority.
-Critical Hits: Even though it's not reliable, it's one of the best ways to stop a chain because it loses all the defense boosts are ignored being able to KO the BP users.
-Prankster: Pokemon with Prankster can annoy to end and they absolutely don't care about Speded Boost because they go first regardless making a great stop of BP teams.
-Infiltrator: this abiulity makes that you bypass the Substitute of a BP team with any move. User of this are Chandelure, Noivern and Crobat, among others.
-Other sound moves (in particular, Bug Buzz, Boomburst and Hyper Voice): those are countered by Mr Mime but there are a great way to deal those teams because they bypass Substitute. Bug Buzz is used on Volcaroina, but can be effective on pokemon like Galvantula, Venomoth, Yanmega or Vivillon. Hypr Voice come in two ways the pixilate version (sylveon and MGardevoir, specially the latter) and the standard version (Meloetta). Boomburst Exploud is a very efective mthod of desaling with BP teams.
This are the ways that are more realible to stop a BP team. Without Magic Bounce, all of these strategies are reliable.
 
I'm not talking about both on the same team.

Before full BP chains, lead Swords Dance/Baton Pass Scolipede with either Sub/Protect and an attack/Spikes was pretty common. Much safer way to set up an Azumarill than Belly Drum since Speed Boost let him outspeed more often early game (so he doesn't have to rely on Aqua Jet) while Swords Dance let him run 4 attacks.

And before the huge OU speed creep this gen — Greninja, Talonflame, other priority users like Bisharp and Azumarill jumping into OU — Espeon was "fast." Calm Mind/Baton Pass with 2 attacks was pretty standard; switch Espeon in when you predict hazards, then dry BP if their Poke can hurt you or Calm Mind on the switch. Also Espeon laughs at Sableye and Whimsicott.
Stuff like that is fine. A Speed Boost+Magic Bounce/Absolite ban should only be on the cards when both are present on the same team imo
 

Albacore

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Those 3 aren't very good together alone because Aegislash and Talonflame give them huge trouble and disrupt the set up pretty easily. I've been trying those exact 3 out the last few days and the only way to win using BP is if they make a dumb mistake.
You do know you can also have other members on your team, right? Covering stuff like Talonflame and Aegislash is what those are for. You don't hear people saying that VenuTran cores are unviable simply because Kyurem-B, Pinsir, and Landorus can break through them. And although Talonflame is a problem, I don't find Aegislash to be much a threat unless it carries Flash Cannon or Iron Head, both of which are rare. But if you really have trouble with it, just pack a decent counter, it's not that hard.

If you haven't been winning matches with a BP team of 3 users, you simply haven't been playing very well, or your team isn't very good.
 
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Not that I overly bother with OU myself, but I like to read it from time to time in case of changes that could affect the lower tiers, or interesting uses for lower tier mons. That said, this thread has my interest because of the concept of how to nerf full BP teams.

The way I see it, the broken aspect of these teams is the ability to create unbreakable chains, and as a result, any ban implemented should prevent any baton pass chain from continuing unbroken. While people have made the argument HO has pokemon at its disposal to stop baton pass from setting up easily, balance, stall and a number of other strategies do not have this luxury in their playstyle, and therefore, the nerfs should allow those teams to have at least a plausible chance of winning against BP.

In my mind, the following bans should take place
-The move baton pass is illegal on any pokemon with the following abilities: Magic bounce, soundproof, suction cups
-The move ingrain is banned
-The move stored power is banned

The first two points should be fairly obvious. Those abilities plus baton pass effectively create either unbreakable or near unbreakable chains that require severe team building constraints in order to bypass. The important part of the ability/BP bans is that the BP chain should not be allowed to continue without a chance to break it, but it can finish at a recipient with one of those abilities provided the recipient does not have the move baton pass.

e.g this is acceptable
Player A has a scolipede with +2atk and speed. Player B has a heatran with roar. Player A uses baton pass to pass to suction cups octillery.

This is fine because despite suction cups preventing roar from working, Player A cannot baton pass any further. At this point he/she must actually try to win with the boosted octillery rather than preventing the chain from being broken and making an even more overpowered sweeper. With the nerfs I have suggested, player B is far more likely to have had chances to break the chain before getting to the final recipient, so that they don't have to face down an incredibly boosted pokemon unless they actually get outplayed as opposed to "look at opponent's pokemon, can it phaze me? How can it do so? select appropriate passive response and cause it to fail".

Ingrain also needs to go based on the reasons above. despite only smeargle abusing it, it has no competitive basis in the metagame outside making unbreakable BP chains. This is not acceptable, and therefore needs to be removed.

A ban on stored power might seem harsh, but I would disagree. Stored power (In OU) Would really only be used for the purposes of receiving huge boosts from baton pass to make an attack that has power beyond anything in the game, as well as bypassing the few checks that normally could withstand a boosted attack. This in particular is a needed nerf from stall's perspective so as to allow unaware users the ability to check BP without having to handicap themselves with poor move choices.

I think BP could still be viable, though it would need to undergo major changes in order to succeed. They can still run taunt to prevent roar and such from working, BP to faeries to prevent dragon tail, Steels to prevent clear smog etc. Where they would now struggle is
-4MSS: Taunt costs a valuable moveslot that would otherwise be used for boosting, an attack, or substitute, since BP is always a required move. This would greatly hinder the abilities of pokemon to contribute to the chain.
-Hazard prevention: Without magic bounce, BP now needs yet again to find additional free moveslots for either rapid spin or defog if it wants to pass without being affected by hazards, again forcing 4MSS on the team.
-The ability for the opponent to effectively switch against them: Since taunt isn't a permanent passive ability to abuse, it is possible for teams to switch out their taunted phazer to something else that can phaze. This forces BP again to have to consider their passes more carefully so as to have a fresh taunt user to come in against the phazer, and additionally not be crippled by any possible attacking move (e.g discharge, scald, dragon tail). Additionally, BP would need to carry a hazard setter so that opposing teams cannot just switch for free to get around their taunt users.
-Bypassing unaware users: Somewhere on the team there must be at least one pokemon capable of defeating unaware clefable/quagsire regardless of boosting.

It also seems that these bans would be the easiest to implement in terms of complex banning. currently the complex ban only affects 3 pokemon in the game (espeon, Mr. Mime and M-absol), and can be updated as more generations occur, should more pokemon like this be made. This to me seems a lot easier than enforcing a limitation on baton pass users , though I admit I have no idea which would be easier to code into Pokemon Showdown.

Basically, banning ingrain, stored power and baton pass with an ability that can limit phazing allows BP to continue to function, but not in such a way so that BP can win/lose at the team preview.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
We're attempting to make Baton Pass manageable, not completely unviable. If we banned Magic Bounce, Ingrain and Stored Power we might as well ban the strategy as a whole. I'm conviced that the best solution is to limit the use of the move Baton Pass to a given number of Pokémon on each team. What I'm really not sure about is whether that number should be 3 or 4.
 
The goal is to make Baton Pass, as a strategy, more manageable. Establishing a Baton Pass clause will kill the Baton Pass chain archetype (the concept of a chain), and turn the strategy into a 3 Pokemon half-pass/quick-pass team. (Scolipede, Smeargle and Espeon, or a combination of Scolipede, Espeon and Smeargle/Vaporeon/Sylveon/Mr Mime.)

Banning Espeon or Magic Bounce will utterly kill Baton Pass chains, and arguably even half/quick-pass strategies, for fear of Taunt and phasing, etc.

The Baton Pass chain archetype is not uncompetitive or broken in nature. It is a legitimate strategy that should remain intact, and players should be allowed to play a chain style at their own peril. However, what makes the playstyle uncompetitive is chiefly Scolipede. Scolipede propogates uncompetitiveness on several accounts.

The first, with respectable bulk and speed, and between Protect and Substitute, Scolipede acquires 2-4x Speed effortlessly, while simultaneously boosting Def trivially. Even physical kings are suddenly worthless in the face of an easy x2-3 Def boost. D-Dancing Dragonite or Mega Charizard X are laughably tanked and outpaced at x2, and under the worst circumstances, Scolipede can simply Baton Pass out into a counter.

The second, his sheer versatility and overwhelming support for the chain. While Scolipede commonly runs Iron Defense, he is free to run offensive support with Swords Dance, and can viably sweep on his own between Earthquake and Megahorn, or ensure a better Pokemon can. Toxic Spikes means the chain can dance around and even stall if necessary, and Spikes wears down the opposing team and more allows the chain to OHKO any threat.

The third, his ability to easily set up a second and even third time, and provide second and third chances to facilitate sweeps.

While Scolipede has counters, he can easily avoid checks and counters like hyper offensive presence such as Pinsir and Talonflame. Behind a Substitute, Scolipede can even Baton Pass safely from either of these two offensive threats. Suspecting the typical Scolipede lead, the Baton Pass user can instead lead with Vaporeon, and Acid Armor until Scolipede wishes to enter.

Taunt and phasing, Encore, etc., can stop Scolipede's shenanigans, but due to the nature of Speed Boost, he is welcome to Pass to a counter like Magic Bounce, and reenter at a more opportune time.

By himself, Scolipede takes autonomy from the game, and ensures the entire chain will have speed initiative with no effort, skill and little knowledge of the metagame. Without Scolipede, Baton Pass chains must spend 2-4 extra turns to boost speed via Agility among a special user, making it far more difficult to attain speed initiative, nevermind defensive boosts. (Remember, speed initiative for the entire team means all of Baton Pass' conventional counters are countered.)

Smogon has no desire to blanket ban Baton Pass, or otherwise kill the archetype, and wishes to avoid complex bans unless absolutely necessary. Scolipede would be banned not for brokenness, but uncompetitiveness, and removing autonomy from the game. And his ban would effectively make the Baton Pass playstyle more manageable.

I wish to share some Baton Pass gameplay, under my test account "Its a Genjutsu". I do not claim flawless play, nor do I mean these videos are proof by themselves, but rather the gameplay illustrates Scolipede's general uncompetitiveness and overwhelming support, able to setup and begin a new chain a second or third time, and reducing Baton Pass chains' standard counters into nothing more than whimsical fantasy.

This game demonstrates how Scolipede can set up multiple times with ease, and issue an effortless victory.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113618218

This gameplay shows how Prankster Taunt Sableeye is no guarantee counter of the chain, nor a counter in general (that is, able to switch in and defeat). This also shows priority like ExtremeSpeed and Sucker Punch failing to "counter" or overcome.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113232428

These next gameplay videos shows how Scolipede overcomes offensive pressure by the likes of Mega Heracross, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, etc, and again how easily Scolipede can rebuild the chain. (All mistakes are my own.)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113611192
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113242095
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113234813

Haze Quagsire isn't a counter; he can't switch in and win, he is worn down or otherwise dies to even unboosted Sylveon, and while he ignores stat-changes, Stored Power's sheer power is capable of destroying him. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113623014

Scolipede makes it "not fun" and enables the team to tank x3 Cloyster. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112747406

Scolipede embarrasses x3 Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112746268
 
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If we reduced the Baton Pass to only 4 members, it would still make the stragety playable. Adding an additonal ban of Ingrain with Baton Pass makes sense, as once you have the Magic Bouncers out of the way, you do have the option of Roaring/Whirlwinding out the oppisite side. It's ashame though, as I can't see smeargle being used much then.

Definately in favour of banning Scolipede with Baton Pass. He is the big difference between this generation and last. Getting people to go back to using Ninjask means they have to think about dealing with threats more carefully again.

If you replaced the Scolipede in the above teams with Ninjask, do you think that it would reduce the effectiveness of the tactic?
 
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Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
is a Contributor Alumnus
Definately in favour of banning Scolipede with Baton Pass. He is the big difference between this generation and last. Getting people to go back to using Ninjask means they have to think about dealing with threats more carefully again.
Scolipede with baton pass is a legit quickpass strategy with access to SD and Speed Boost. So vehement no to the direction being anywhere near that.
 
Scolipede with baton pass is a legit quickpass strategy with access to SD and Speed Boost. So vehement no to the direction being anywhere near that.
Smogon bans uncompetitive/broken Pokemon, regardless of their other sets or niches. They also avoid complex bans at all costs, and instead bans individual Pokemon. (e.g. Mega Gengar [not Shadow Tag], Blaziken [not Speed Boost].)
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
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There are numerous ways to go about nerfing full baton pass chains, such as limiting Baton Pass to one/two pokemon per team or to ban the combinations listed in silenced's post (aside from maybe exchanging Suction Cups with Speed Boost as no pokemon have access to the combination of baton pass and Suction Cups wheras both Scolipede and Ninjask get Speed Boost + BP), although this does have major issues as Speed Boost + BP is a viable strategy outside of full teams and Espeon is also good as a sole passer. But, lets face it, banning BP + Soundproof would have almost no effect on the metagame as Mr. Mime is the only user of the combo and it has no use outside of full teams - a roll which is negated as soon as Smeargle sets up Ingrain and starts Quiver Dancing/Shift Gearing/Shell Smashing.

However, I feel that the best way to start to go about easing our way into a full-on nerf for Baton Pass chains is by banning a combo which was banned in the lower tiers in gen 5: SmashPass - one of the biggest controvosies in competitive pokemon history. I would be all for banning it in every tier but Ubers this gen as, when successfully set up, it has versatility in who you then pass to: a physical attacker, a mixed attacker or a special attacker. Combine it with White Herb and it gives you the best boosting move in the game (aside from Power Herb Geomancy which is so dumb, but Smeargle can't afford to forgo Focus Sash to set it up and Xerneas is uber anyway, making it less broken) simply for its versitility about who you then go into, and with Gorebyss being a staple on BP teams for its ability to pass it while still being bulky enough to take at least one hit, restore its defenses with White Herb and then BP out into a a pokemon to either set up further, sweep with Stored Power or a physical/special cleaner who is often found at the end of BP chains. QuiverPass and, to a lesser extent, ShiftPass (Shift Gear + Baton Pass) are also very controversial combinations, and I would be for suspect testing the former and putting a close watch on the latter (ie. not suspect testing it straight away, but seeing if it starts seeing a role in BP teams which becomes overpowered in a metagame without SmashPass - being its replacement on the physical side)

The main issue that makes full baton pass teams controversial (which has already been covered many times in this thread) is that the archetype basically makes it so that either your teambuilding is limited by it or you need a crit/completely idiotic opponent to beat it. This means that the only true counters to the strategy are Haze, Clear Smog and Prankster Taunt, all of which are situational as a: Espeon needs to not be on the field when it comes in (for Prankster Taunt) and b: you need to actually get onto the field in the first place - a +2 Hyper Voice from Sylveon is nothing to scoff at.
 
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