Battle Tree Discussion and Records

I was wondering about a certain facet of the mechanics of Co-op Multis now that USUM has arrived:
has anyone checked to see what happens if you play multis with one player on SM and the other on USUM, and then it rolls one of the sets that changed from SM to USUM (for example, Electivire3)?

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Worldie said:
....still does not justify using ice types though :(
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I got to thinking if enough Trainers over the years have been able to justify the usage of a cold shoulder, so I got to checking the leaderboards:
- Frontier: 15 Ice-types
- Subway: 21 Ice-types
- Maison: 41 Ice-types (this includes a few 'mons rotated in for semi-random streaks)
- Tree: 3 Ice-types (so far)

Quite difficult, but doable.
 
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Smuckem said:
I got to thinking if enough Trainers over the years have been able to justify the usage of a cold shoulder, so I got to checking the leaderboards:
- Frontier: 15 Ice-types
- Subway: 21 Ice-types
(to be updated as I keep flipping through the leaderboards)
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Those were the times before fairy types existed and ice stab was actually solid to deal with dragons :P
 
Worldie said:
Those were the times before fairy types existed and ice stab was actually solid to deal with dragons :P
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That's why fairy-laden Maison by and far has the most (41 though, seriously? damn Smucks lol) And I don't remember anyone bringing ice STAB purely for dragons, when there are enough special sweepers out there that learn Ice Beam and use it well.

Many of them have individual uses, though, you know that. Even if the ice typing isn't what gives them most of their niche, they're still ice pokes. Frost Breath is a critical part of GG's star player moveset, something he wouldn't have if he were using Drapion instead.
 
Today I defeated Red in Ultra Sun's Super Multis with a team almost identical to Echskiry's, but I lost midway in my first try due to HAX since Mimikyu failed a Play Rough on a Porygon2, which procceeded to paralyze it with Thunder Wave and, if it wasn't enough yet, it even lowered its Sp. Def. with Shadow Ball. I really hate miss moves, so in my second try I replaced Ghostium Z by the brand new Mimikyum Z, and this time it worked wonders ignoring Play Rough's 10% chance to fail. It OHKO'd things like Lapras at +2 and left others like Avalugg with its HP in red, easy target for a boosted Shadow Sneak.

Now I'm trying to get the Super Multis' stamp. The trainers I've recruited so far are promising, like Cynthia or Anabel, but some set or ability in some of their Pokémon are not the best to work with. Most decent guy I've found is Cook Julien/Sly, which leads with Scarf Typhlosion and then Air Balloon Magmortar. I remember some of the records in XY's Battle Maison's Super Multis included Scarf Typhlosion on the AI's lead, so I'm trying to support it with Mega-Charizard Y (Heat Wave, Solarbeam, Dragon Pulse, Protect) and Garchomp (Swords Dance, Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Rock Slide). The latter currently holds a Lum Berry, but I wonder if I could use Groundium Z? Just to prevent hitting Typhlosion and Magmortar once if the Balloon is broken. I wish I had a better fourth Pokémon than Magmortar, but it should at least also benefit from Drought.
 
VenusaurOmega said:
Today I defeated Red in Ultra Sun's Super Multis with a team almost identical to Echskiry's, but I lost midway in my first try due to HAX since Mimikyu failed a Play Rough on a Porygon2, which procceeded to paralyze it with Thunder Wave and, if it wasn't enough yet, it even lowered its Sp. Def. with Shadow Ball. I really hate miss moves, so in my second try I replaced Ghostium Z by the brand new Mimikyum Z, and this time it worked wonders ignoring Play Rough's 10% chance to fail. It OHKO'd things like Lapras at +2 and left others like Avalugg with its HP in red, easy target for a boosted Shadow Sneak.

Now I'm trying to get the Super Multis' stamp. The trainers I've recruited so far are promising, like Cynthia or Anabel, but some set or ability in some of their Pokémon are not the best to work with. Most decent guy I've found is Cook Julien/Sly, which leads with Scarf Typhlosion and then Air Balloon Magmortar. I remember some of the records in XY's Battle Maison's Super Multis included Scarf Typhlosion on the AI's lead, so I'm trying to support it with Mega-Charizard Y (Heat Wave, Solarbeam, Dragon Pulse, Protect) and Garchomp (Swords Dance, Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Rock Slide). The latter currently holds a Lum Berry, but I wonder if I could use Groundium Z? Just to prevent hitting Typhlosion and Magmortar once if the Balloon is broken. I wish I had a better fourth Pokémon than Magmortar, but it should at least also benefit from Drought.
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Groundium-Z is a good option for Garchomp. I question the value of Mega Charizard Y - while Sun does support the two allied Fire-types, it also leaves your team with 3 Fire-types all sharing weaknesses to Water and Rock, with similar offensive coverage. I think building to cover the AI partner's weaknesses and let the AI support your team, rather than committing too hard into supporting the AI partner is preferred - personally, I had success with Scarf Bulu (Jolly) alongside an AI partner's Scarf Entei, for Grassy Terrain support and fast, strong STAB moves against Rock- and Water-types that Eruption does poorly against. Groundium-Z Garchomp seems like a good idea, as Typhlosion and Magmortar both are weak to opposing Fire-types, which Tectonic Rage (or EQ if Air Ballon is intact) will remove.
 
Did someone call for Charizard Y + Eruption expert? P

If you have Typh-3 as you say, go for it, but make sure to include an alternative for the AI changing weather or Typhlosion being stupid and locking into Focus miss (It will do it, believe me).

The main issue **in multis** is that since you aren't able to predict what Typh will lock in, you are at risk of having it be useless if it locks into anything that's not Eruption, plus you'd not be able to focus fire a target. Feels quite risky.
 
ReptoAbysmal said:
That's why fairy-laden Maison by and far has the most (41 though, seriously? damn Smucks lol)
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TBF, there's skewing there thanks to me using one or two from my Bench, you using four or five in your semi-random runs, turskain using Abomasnow for his semi-random run, GG using...that thing he uses several times over, and people in Singles swearing by Cloyster hype in the early parts of the Maison thread.
 
I'm parking the Mind Blown shenenigans for now.

I've run like 150+ battles at this point, always failed to break past 40.

Blace has some perks over the standard Eruption spam, but also downsides that sadly outweight the pros.

PROS
- Immune to Fake out
- Guaranteed to die after 2 turns
- Mind Blown doesn't lose BP on low HP, if anything it gains power second turn due to the potential Beast Boost
- Provides a very fast (outspeeds everything bar Aero-1) Knockoff or Trick to rid of potential setuppers or opposer Scarfs
- Provides a decently powerful stab Shadow Ball which can also kill things after Beast Boosts
- Basically anything will target Blace over Charizard outside of fighting / normal attacks

CONS
- You are forced to Protect Charizard turn 1 or 2. It doesn't 1hko Chari turn 1 even with a crit but severely dents it. Turn 2 with a Beast Boost WILL kill Charizard with a crit or if chip damage happened
- The backline needs to be able to swap into Charizard if Protect turn 2 is not an option or it dies turn 1, forcing into Telepathy or strong resists. Flash Fire not really applicable as that'd be pushing the stacking of weaknesses.
- Istantly dies to Sucker Punch
- As above... it dies turn 2 or 1, no matter what. Which is both a bless and a curse. You avoid those low HP locked Eruptions that do no damage, but at same time you can't keep it around more than 2 turns


Overally... disappointed. I was hoping better but I just couldn't find a Backline that can deal with the turn 2 Mind Blown without just taking a massive amount of damage or being useless.

(that is, until someone gives me some Wide Lenses...)
 
Anyone made Buzzwole work in tree? Just soft reset for a shiny for the first time and got it after about an hour and a half, fortunately synced the Adamant nature, so it's just begging to be used now.
 
Toyed with Iron Ball Buzzwole extremely briefly, so it already isn't going to be what you want, but it hits hard as all fuck and gets +4s for every Fell Stinger it lands. You really only need that first one, anyway. I loved it.
 
ReptoAbysmal said:
Toyed with Iron Ball Buzzwole extremely briefly, so it already isn't going to be what you want, but it hits hard as all fuck and gets +4s for every Fell Stinger it lands. You really only need that first one, anyway. I loved it.
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I'm definitely going to give it a whirl, wants speed control so Tailwind/TR seems like a must. Will go from there. Gets Drain Punch via move tutor now, so more possibilities.
 
paperquagsire said:
AV buzzwole with drain punch and leech life seems like a bulky, self healing machine of destruction
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I was thinking of that exact same thing myself, dual STAB healing moves is pretty appealing.

Also considering defensive Sub/Bulk Up for singles tree, can setup on a lot of physical attacking mons.
 
Statistically, if you depend on either a 10% flinch rate OR for an opponent's 90% accurate move to miss, within one turn, what are the odds that (failing to get the flinch plus move connects) you'll lose? It's well over 80% unfavorably, is it not?

I had spent a great deal of time replaying and replaying a round of battles out of necessity, because my "best" option at the time, lead Terrakion4, simply could not win a battle in which the opponent lead Mawile3 and carried a Mimikyu3 (Fairium Z variant) as backup. My other two pokemon could not defeat Mawile plus Florges and still be able to break Mimikyu's disguise while surviving the Twinkle Tackle afterward.

Changing Terrakion for another pokemon was out of the question because the two opponents before Veteran Xio used teams that were cleanly beaten by it, particularly a lead Zard Y; never mind the fact that the next best option was a Swampert1 with no water move. This was also the first round out of five, and I didn't want to change such a solid poke like Terrakion and come to find out it would have handled everything else easily. I was getting extremely aggravated by the situation, as the opponent would not change; I just had to find a way to come out on top. But once I resigned myself to those odds, it just became a matter of patiently trying and retrying. Though I did bitch loudly to NZtechfreak about it.

The one thing working in my favor was that sand was automatically generated for every battle. This meant that if I could kill Mawile unscathed, Florges could not OHKO me with any of its moves barring a crit, while a 2HKO was easily within my own grasp. Both Florges and Mimikyu were also much more susceptible to Rock Slide. Even if Terrakion were to die, I simply needed to break Mimikyu's disguise or hit Florges once before doing so, and I had it in the bag. Latios3 (Specs) and Mow Rotom3 (Grassium Z Leaf Storm, Will-O, Volt Switch, Shadow Ball) could handle the remaining two, not necessarily smoothly, but surely.

And after a solid hour or more of attempts, bones were thrown my way. Many, many bones. Needless to say, I got my King's Rock flinch with Earthquake and killed Mawile. But what about those other bones?

-Mimikyu loses Disguise to Earthquake and also flinches
-Rock Slide flinches Mimikyu once again
-0/0 Florges makes a lovely opponent for Terrakion especially in sand, with the SDef and extra damage per turn

So my manageable scenario became my best case scenario before my very eyes. I couldn't believe my luck. I was more than willing to sack Terrakion just to give Latios two clean turns before getting destroyed itself (Specs Psychic was doing nearly 50% to Florges, sand would push it over) and thereby leaving Rotom to either Bloom Doom Mimikyu to oblivion or finish off Florges, whomever came in last.

And I was glad I held onto Terrakion, because just as I'd anticipated, the remaining four rounds were generally easy pickings for it, especially with that sand. Giovanni packed Kangaskhan4 and, even with the intimidate from lead Arcanine, was easily dealt with (albeit not without some bloodshed. Terrakion died a hero.) That victory was sufficient to reach Rank 50, so I'm finally done with that challenge until January when the global mission wants us to return. However, they'll need to provide something besides FC because, just by playing the Agency EXCLUSIVELY, I finished with over 100,000 FC, which is more than I ever had in Moon and more than I know what to do with.

But I've got a lv100 Mega Lucario as my designated poke, which should help NZ quite a bit, as well as anyone else who wants to get into that side challenge and is looking for assistance. I can't wait for Smuckem to start playing it, since it seems like basically everything he likes about using facility sets.
 
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Nice man! Lucario will be appreciated, for sure. I've already had one trio of battles where I had to replay in the hopes of an opposition move missing in order to win, sometimes all you can do with the limited number of mons available to you.
 
ReptoAbysmal said:
Statistically, if you depend on either a 10% flinch rate OR for an opponent's 90% accurate move to miss, within one turn, what are the odds that (failing to get the flinch plus move connects) you'll lose? It's well over 80% unfavorably, is it not
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81% so not really. 10% of the time you get a flinch and win, and 9% of the time the opponent moves and misses.
 
Even better, thanks for clearing it up! What was annoying was that the battle beforehand, I had consecutively flinched a Mega Camerupt four times and was then slain by the Mawile. Felt like the RNG was trolling me big time because that Camerupt was royally fucked whether it flinched or not.

I know you've documented a lot of bizarre behavior GG, so what do you make of a Blissey4 that comes in on Latios- fresh after its teammate was KO'd- and immediately switches back out into an Infernape4 and lets it get obliterated? I had to redo that battle repeatedly because of both difficulty with Blissey4 and the battle after it. ........and it made that choice every single time. Come in as Blissey, switch to Infernape, let it get killed. It made no sense but the fact that those turns were practically scripted regardless of Latios' HP (on some occasions Latios would have fainted immediately if Infernape had come in and used Fake Out) gave me the impression that the AI "calculated" the value of that switch.

Its only damaging move is Mud Bomb, but it could have still used Toxic or tried to set up on me. Coming in before Infernape was obvious if the move I used was Psychic, which it walls. But why on earth does it then just swap its psychic-weak teammate in and sack it? Sand was also active for this, so it would faint the moment the turn ended.
 
ReptoAbysmal said:
I can't wait for Smuckem to start playing it, since it seems like basically everything he likes about using facility sets.
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Singles as the only available format kinda dampens my enthusiasm for this, if I'm being honest. Fortunately, having fifty-something Friends on my List should help fill up my ranks and help me along, when the time comes. The actual collection aspect of this might be a bigger motivation for me to try Agency than the combat, really--why raise an Imperfect Army when my fellow Smogonites can simply gift me Replicates, albeit for one facility and one format only?

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Besides, I'm been keeping busy in SM Tree in the meantime. In the past couple of weeks, I've tried E R U P T I O N, Prep the Bulu, Team Brexit V2, and a fourth mystery team that will remain a mystery for the time being. I've hovered between 60-80 with most of these teams (though I did have one flop at 43 wins), and the mystery team got me past 100 for the first time since I did so with Sacha's QR team (the 169 wins). Yes I suck, but I'm still enjoying the experience trying out a few teams that have gotten a couple of my fellow Trainers some valuable victories and achievements. As of the time of this post, I'm trying something new out that has gotten me back to 50--it turns out that one of the Q.R.T.O.O.'s teams was actually worth a shit: https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/rentalteam/sm/BT-4DF1-9F34

(this team is featured and linked to on Stunfisk's Battle Tree Rental Team Compilation Thread; the creator made it exactly to 50 wins with this team; hopefully I can push it a little harder than that. Props to whoever made that thread, as they seemed to have stumbled upon this thread and linked to several entries on the QR3, thereby spreading those teams to at least one other corner of the land. Also, props to Skullkid and Frozocrone for going on that thread and sharing their knowledge with the folks over there.)
 
Ah, I hadn't considered that. You may also be fairly displeased to learn that if these people don't regularly come to the festival plaza WHILE YOU'RE ONLINE and refresh an arbitrary invisible timer, they'll eventually be blocked from your use, regardless if they're your VIP or not. So your success is pretty dependent on your friends. Having said that, if you're able to grind for a bit each day, it can still be a blast.
 
Playing around with Dragonite in the Tree again and I normally run

Dragonite @ Lum berry
Adamant 252 attack/ 252 speed/ 6 hp
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Punch
-Dragon Dance

I’m going to play around and use Roost instead of Fire Punch and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on a different EV spread such as investing in HP over speed since I have Roost to set up Dragon Dances.
 
You want to run at least 196 speed to get the jump on Tyranitar2/3 at equal boosts so you can OHKO them at +1. I wouldn't recommend dipping into Attack either, so the best(for now) EV spread is 52/252/4/4/196 Adamant. As for PP Ups, you want to always use them on recovery moves if you can.
 
HeadsILoseTailsYouWin said:
You want to run at least 196 speed to get the jump on Tyranitar2/3 at equal boosts so you can OHKO them at +1. I wouldn't recommend dipping into Attack either, so the best(for now) EV spread is 52/252/4/4/196 Adamant. As for PP Ups, you want to always use them on recovery moves if you can.
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Awesome thank you for the advice.
 
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