I would expecially point out that Lightning Rod would block your own Volt Switch, so Koko would need to have U-turn instead.
And since tree runs megas and stuff, for example a Mega-Alakazam tracing Lightning Rod can result in a pretty big disaster.
Mega-kazam is often a big problem for Fake out leads because you are in a situation where if it's Specs Alakazam and is Inner focus, you might waste fake out completely, but if you don't fake out and it's Mega, it can trace one of your abilities, expecially dangerous on things like immunities to your stab or Beast Boost / Speed Boost.
Yes i know, i have him on my threat list ;) Definitely one of the most terrible threats that can show up. Thats partly the reason for Landorus' and Steelas EVs, it makes Lando survive Psychic from the Specs set and Steela can OHKO it. While the situation against the Mega is different, it still may help making decisions when an unknown set appears.
Thanks for your comments!Since your team is using 2 of the Pokémon I've been using a ton recently, I thought I could give my comments on this. First, I think the team looks really fun to use, and I'd be totally willing to try it out. However, I don't have a Tapu Koko with HP Ground, nor an Impish Celesteela. I'm not sure how big of a deal that is, at least for testing, because from my understanding, my Careful Celesteela could be fine there, and I'd be kind of curious to hear what HP Ground on Koko is for specifically?
HP Ground is mostly a filler, i considered it mainly against A-Marowak, because he walls my leads badly and can OHKO my whole team.
At some point i even considered Pelipper in the back, because of the Fire Weakness :D Helping Hand + HP Ground OHKOs, altough one never wants to do this. It also may help against Electric Types and stuff, but i guess its one of the moves that get usage every 100 battles.
My Celesteela has this physical investment because it is supposed to counter EQusers and Grounds, but in the first place this shouldnt matter that much.
One thing I've noticed from using Specs Koko is that locking yourself into anything else than your 2 STABs to OHKO a threat in front of you can be very detrimental if using that move again on the following turn doesn't score you another OHKO. If you lack a switch-in for what's coming, it's really awkward and makes the quick KO not worth it. That's something I noticed from having Grass Knot in the first 100 battles, and every time I actually used it, I instantly regretted it on the following turn. Personally, I would probably never run Grass Knot on Specs Koko again, at least not in Doubles. If anything, I feel like Volt Switch could have more utility than both Grass Knot and HP Ground, but I'm not sure exactly what both aim at accomplishing for the team other than offer coverage, so maybe I'm wrong.
I think at this Electric team it is very important, and also i dont think Koko has much better alternatives.
I don't doubt Raichu's damage output if it can get a couple of Lightning Rod boosts, but as you mention, Ground-types are scary, and teams that feature a lot of them at once are extremely common (Hikers tend to have that a lot). They tend to be very bulky, so despite having Grass Knot / HP Ice in your lead, the lead would still lose to them in most occasions. Landorus and Celesteela are both great against these teams offensively, but my biggest concern would be the lack of Rock resist, since a lot of them have EdgeQuake coverage, and Sand Force boosted Stone Edge is no joke even for Celesteela. If I didn't have Swampert to tank Rock-type moves, I don't think my team could have gone that far, I feel like it was a crucial necessity - but since I had rain this is different, and I shouldn't compare the 2 teams too much.
Yes, no Rock resist hurts. When facing EQusers, it often may be the best to double switch out. I hope since the AI loves OHKOs it shows no reluctance to use EQ, so they chip eachother down in this turn, and i can clean up with the back - optimally.
As Worldie pointed out, I would also be concerned about Trick Room (especially when paired with Ground/Rock spam, which is fairly common), but Trick Room trainers might be manageable depending on the situation.
Hopefully. Wide Guard may help to stall out some turns.
In any case, just from the fact it looks like a lot of fun, I'd gladly give that team a try if you don't mind me having a few different things on it.
Feel free! I'm more than happy that one wants to give it a try :)
Edit: One last comment, I think Leftovers > Electric Seed on Celesteela, because 1. Electric Seed almost forces you to stay in, otherwise your item is just wasted, while Leftovers is good at any time and 2. You can get boosts from Beast Boost anyway to become really tanky. The instant extra bulk is very useful at times I'm sure, but Celesteela is such a useful pivot, I'd value the possibility of switching around more.
Yes i came to the same conclusion.
With respect to Tapu Koko, both Thunder and Nature's Madness seem questionable. Thunder gives you 10 more base power on Gigavolt Havoc, but leaves you with a pretty dead move afterwards, since Thunder's accuracy makes it a huge liability outside of a dedicated rain team. And HP halving effects like Nature's Madness are difficult to take advantage of, since they don't speed any KOs until you turn a hypotehtical 4HKO into a 3HKO. (The 3HKO being 1. Madness, 2. Madness, 3. move that normally only 4HKOs and can do the final 1/4). This is a narrow situation. I guess Koko can set things up for its partners too, but the situations where a partner can only win if Koko has previously halved the foe's HP with Nature's Madness, rather than hitting it with one of its other moves that turn or just straight switching, are also limited, especially with a well-built team. I'd suggest going with Thunderbolt over Thunder, and accepting the slightly weaker Z-move for the greater overall reliability. Grass Knot seems like a good option to replace Nature's Madness, since it can do a lot of damage to big Ground-types that your Electric-type attacks can't touch.Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nature's Madness
Tapu Lele @ Assault Vest
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpA
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Ball
Kangaskhan-Mega (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Sucker Punch
- Power-Up Punch
So this is my team, I've reached ~50 wins with it. Any help?
Glad I could help a little bit! Congrats on the stamp, that one is a pain to get.Just got my Super Multi Battle stamp for 50 wins after about a week. I'd like to thank Torqan for the general team setup, since it was convenient as I already had Wally, Thundurus, and I could breed a Magikarp up. I used his Thundurus-T/Mega-Gyarados sets as they were (with subpar IVs). Wally had a Garchomp-3 and Magnezone-4. This was really a very tedious challenge to go through, and it involves a ton of luck, so I'm glad it's over. Not much info to talk about since it's almost the same team, most of the problems can be identified at first glance, and most is already known, but I'll do my best.
BRUH (Thundurus-Therian) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 17 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
Torqan summarized this Thundurus-T well in the original post. He is a powerful nuke that hits a lot super effectively and doesn't get hit by EQ. Garchomp's Earthquake damage lets Thundurus get easy kills most of the time. I leveled and hyper trained his SpA and Spe before the winning run, as I was tired of barely missing KOs on Ice types with Flash Cannon, and found that the extra 7 SpA and 1 Speed would make enough of a difference. Volt Absorb shenanigans with Gyarados were cool to use. I did notice that Alolan Golem-1 would keep ramming into me with Galvanized Double-Edges when it popped up, so I guess the AI doesn't understand that specific interaction.
Mr. fish (Gyarados) @ Gyaradosite
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Fang
This Gyarados has some bad IVs that I didn't really care to fix at. Ice Fang is nice for taking down other dragons. I don't have the specific Mega Gallade synergy that Torqan talked about, but Magnezone did take some pressure off Mr. fish sometimes. Mega evolving at the right time is something to keep in mind. The worst is when there's an enemy about to use Rock Slide or Stone Edge and Garchomp's busy Earthquaking.
Garchomp-3 @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Fire Fang
Solid guy, does great damage sets up a lot of kills with Earthquake. Usually uses Earthquake which is fine, but he seldom switches out if the enemy is immune. He has done it sometimes and even acknowledged Levitate, so who knows. Seems to use Fire Fang against 4x effective mons and Outrage if there's a dragon or EQ isn't the best choice according to its AI decisions. I've seen this guy use Crunch once. Sand Veil can be fun against a sand team opponent.
Magnezone-4 @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
- Flash Cannon
- Tri Attack
- Volt Switch
This is where my team diverges from the strat I took, featuring this magnet guy instead of Mega Gallade. I'll take a mon with 4 attacking moves any day. I'd prefer Sturdy but Magnezone is actually pretty durable with its HP investment and Assault Vest. It even survives some Earthquakes if spread. Pretty good bait and hits hard too. Magnezone is the most likely to be in the situation where the AI has to win on its own. It has always lost.
Some pains included Dragon-types that I couldn't OHKO, Garchomp would try to target with Outrage, and end up with a coin flip. I found that some Ice types like Beartic/Glaceon/Glalie/Froslass barely survived Flash Cannon/would just outspeed Thundurus and usually retaliate with Blizzards or Ice Beams. Rotom-Frost basically gets a free Blizzard. Fairies at least tended to use Dazzling Gleam which never KOed Garchomp thanks to spread damage.
Rock types were another underlooked threat that were relevant if EQ didn't take them out. They can easily take out Thundurus and Gyarados, and usually pack a ground move that destroys Magnezone. Also Fake Outters and Trick Room teams just put a wrench in strategies in general. Also, Porygon2's bulky Ice Beam/Blizzards suck, Rotom forms other than Mow can be annoying, Mega Tyranitar survives an EQ/Flash Cannon, Tauros Giga Impacts hit hard, Wacan Braviary exists, and other Garchomp-3s add even more RNG.
Miscellaneous stuff: Sometimes Garchomp triggers a Marowak's Red Card and the Marowak slams Magnezone with Bone Rush. Landorus-2 getting locked into Earth Power can be fun thanks to my team being both Flying-types so Gyarados can set up once the other trainer is dealt with. A specific example of Magnezone "baiting" was a Mega Sceptile opting to Earthquake instead of finish off low HP Thundurus, allowing Thundurus to Sludge Bomb and Magnezone narrowly surviving.
Videos: 8YBG-WWWW-WWWG-QVMS - Winning battle. Easy Red/Blue sets to deal with
3MPG-WWWW-WWWG-QVPM - Battle 49, just surprisingly simple compared to everything else. The rest of the stuff I saved was losses and I ended up filling up my videos so eh.
This has been an interesting learning experience, Tree is serious stuff. Also used a QR Rental Team by Level 51 from here for the Super Doubles stamp so thanks!
I think this loss involved key plays that would not be optimal in most circumstances:We chose to not Mega our Kang so Flame Body had a lower change to activate. You don’t have to have a lot experience in the tree to guess that we still got burned. Hyper Voice from Mega Mence failed to KO the Virizion and dented the Talonflame who used its Sitrus.
lolnub said half-jokingly that Virizion can crit its Sacred Sword. Jinxed it. Kang goes down and Aegi comes in. [We high five to celebrate the call out, not knowing that this was to be our last battle]
Hyper Voice kills both opponents and Aegi King Shields to keep itself in shield form.
Outcomes what will be our demise. Raikou and Rotom-Heat.
Because Aegi had just King Shielded, we had to attack. Sucks to be us, it was Rotom-Heat-4 with Firium-Z [Here’s that super effective Z-move that we were talking about in Aegi’s write-up]. That spelled the end of Aegi and now it was Mence and Fini vs two Electric types.
GG, no RE (at least in the near future). We brought it back to a situation where Fini had to dodge a Thunder from Raikou, but it still hit its mark.
First off, you're absolutely right, we've made some pretty sub-optimal --- I would even call it huge critical mistakes --- during the battle we lost.I think this loss involved key plays that would not be optimal in most circumstances:
1. Keeping in Kangaskhan against Virizion/Talonflame on Turn 1 - neither foe threatens Mega Salamence once intimidated, and both are likely 2HKO'd by Hyper Voice and outsped on Turn 2 with Gale Wings being gone by then. Switching in Aegislash on Turn 1 would at worst end up with Aegislash tanking a -1 Flare Blitz before the leads are taken out - but more likely Talonflame would use Swords Dance or a different attack in this situation.
2. Using King's Shield on Aegislash when double KOing Talonflame/Virizion with Hyper Voice - this one's more ambiguous, but I think purposefully entering Blade Form is overall more consistent, since it keeps King's Shield as an option for the back-ups, allows Blade Form baiting, and still retains the option of double protecting to take on the back-ups in Shield form if desired.
I've been struggling with proper lead preservation plays myself recently and this warstory reminded me of my own losses, heh.
I believe abilities are randomly determined, and not related to which set you're facing, aside species that always announce ability not having one (Tyranitar without either Sand Stream or Unnverve) signaling that it's Zoroark.Battle No. 158 against Punk Guy Dustin: 2K5G-WWWW-WWWH-KBL3View attachment 102919
Intimidate teams can be difficult for this team, as my Pheromosa is effectively neutered by -2 Atk. Here I should've noticed that Gyarados didn't have intimidate, which usually means it is a non-mega Dragon Dance set (can someone back me up on this? Not sure if that is accurate). I could've used Psychic on Gyarados to lock into the more powerful move and get the kill with Pheromosa. I guessed that Manectric would Overheat into Pheromosa, so I planned to protect and attack with Tapu Lele. Instead it used T-bolt on Lele and paralyzed her. This was very worrysome as this team relies on speed, and Lele was essentially dead weight. I tried to put some damage on Tauros as the evasion boosts were becoming an issue, but no such luck. I brought in Aegislash for Lele, and switched out Pheromosa for Salamence because I thought I was at -2 Atk. I now knew that he has Tauros-4, meaning he could only attack with earthquake. I should've realized this sooner and left him be. Instead I used Hyper Voice with Shadow Ball to KO Manectric, but left Aegislash vulnerable. I started in on Scrafty with Hyper Voice since I couldn't KO with Double-Edge at -1 Atk, but I left Aegislash wide open for a dark STAB. Really careless play that could have cost me more than it did. Thankfully, I was able to just spam Wide Guard to never get hit by the Tauros Earthquake, guaranteeing the win after I knocked out Scrafty.
Here is the losing battle. I played this poorly.
Losing Battle No. 173 against Scientist Cal: MQNW-WWWW-WWWH-KBLT
Double trick room setters is a nightmare for this team. I could only take out one, and I was hoping for Oranguru to be the Z-move set. But I guessed wrong and unfortunately locked Tapu Lele into Energy Ball way too early. Oranguru gets off the Trick Room and the fun begins. I made the huge mistake of not protecting Pheromosa and gave her up for free. Really huge blunder. Energy Ball into Wishiwashi does nothing due to Rindo Bery, and for some reason I switch out Lele giving up any pressure I had. I bring in Aegislash to deal with Oranguru...but I forget that he is part Normal. So instead I blow my Z-move on Wishiwashi. In the end, Lele just couldn't take down the Slowking alone. Overall a close but really sloppy fight that I deserved to lose, but hey thems the breaks.
Thanks for the response! I definitely like the idea of switching into Salamence, that makes a lot of sense. I have read a lot of team reports praising +Speed Pheromosa, and I did try running a Naive set after this streak. I often felt like I was lacking power without the attack boost. A couple sets I struggled with and checked calcs for after the change were Mega-Aggron (85% 2HKO -> 8% 2HKO) , Bronzong-4 (97% 2HKO -> 45% 2HKO), Empoleon-4 (50% OHKO -> Misses OHKO), Incineroar-3 (Guaranteed OHKO -> 56% OHKO), Lickilicky (62% OHKO -> 12% OHKO), Porygon2-3 and -4 (45% 2HKO -> .4% 2HKO), PorygonZ (81% OHKO -> 37% OHKO (although Lele OHKOs clean so not as much of a problem)), Mega-Slowbro (75% 2HKO -> 5% 2HKO), Mega-Latios (Guaranteed OHKO -> 56% OHKO (Lele Moonblast is 98% OHKO), and probably most importantly Oranguru (68% OHKO -> 18% OHKO). Granted none of these are a dealbreaker by any means, but they all can cause a huge headache. I have tossed around the idea of running Low Kick and High Jump Kick to compensate, but that is another set of headaches. Mega-Alakazam is a huge risk for PheroLele, but thankfully I've only managed to drop one good streak to him. I've been lucky enough to be able to deal with him with my back two. And with more careful planning my back two should be able to deal with most of these threats without having to give up my precious, precious Attack boost.I believe abilities are randomly determined, and not related to which set you're facing, aside species that always announce ability not having one (Tyranitar without either Sand Stream or Unnverve) signaling that it's Zoroark.
Both Gyarados3 and Gyarados4 are Dragon Dance sets with a Jolly nature, and bad match-ups for PheroLele teams. I'm not sure how they should be approached - if Phero were running a +Speed nature, it would outspeed these at +1 and be able to get a move off before they attack or DD again. It's been a long time since I used these leads, but my personal preference would be going for a Speed-boosting nature on both Scarf Lele and Pheromosa, from having seen +Speed Lele proving itself on Josh's Sharkanine and theorymoning Speed boosts from Beast Boost to be more consistently useful than Attack boosts (outspeeding whole Tree at 1HP after a KO vs possibly being outsped by Scarfers with an Attack boost that doesn't help any in that situation). Naive/Hasty Pheromosa also outspeeds Mega Alakazam, a key threat against Tapu Lele teams.
Edit: after a discussion on Discord, against Gyarados lead there's the option of switching Pheromosa out for Salamence on Turn 1:
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 118-140 (81.3 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gyarados is most likely to use Dragon Dance, and getting rid of Pheromosa's Attack drops while keeping its Sash is not a bad option - locking Lele into Psychic when there's a possible Mega Gyarados on the field can be a risk, so Moonblast (or Dazzling Gleam if it were on the set) is the move that retains the option to deal damage to Mega Gyarados on Turn 2. From there, if it's Tauros3 using Giga Impact, this set has to recharge, and if it's Tauros4 the offense is low and Gyarados can be doubled into after. Tauros3 might also use something else but from my experience it has a preference for Giga Impact in the absence of strong super-effective choices.
Since my Arcanine is Timid, I left him at 0 Speed EVs to sit at 126. With a little effort I could have bumped him up to 129 to sit in an empty tier outspeeding Pelipper-4, Cobalion-1, and Virizion-4, but I was not particularly worried about anything between 126 and 128. I kept my HP EVs the same despite not being at a calc that means anything to my team, but his bulk is great, sitting at 197 HP and 144 Defense (with slightly less Defense EVs). In order to make up for not having a Modest nautre, I put 132 EVs in Sp. Atk to catch Mega-Mawile and Mega-Metagross with Burn Up.Josh C. said:The idea for a Burn Up Arcanine first came to fruition when turskain brought it up on the Discord server. At this stage the last member needed to be something that could handle the likes of Scizor and Ferrothorn, so a reasonably defensive Arcanine with Intimidate and Helping Hand support seemed ideal. Rather than simply using Flamethrower however, I was excited to get a little creative and test how much mileage I could get out of its newfound toy. Here's the two main reasons why Burn Up is good:
1. Thanks to its impressive 130 Base Power, I was able to focus on a more defensively oriented EV spread with minimal Sp. Attack investment; just enough to secure OHKO's on Mega Metagross & Mega Mawile. Yeah, I still need to run a Modest nature, but Calm/Bold would require significantly more SpA EVs and therefore less to dump elsewhere.
2. Burn Up's side effect makes Arcanine typeless after use, meaning he is now hit neutrally by every type and can't use Burn Up a second time (this resets upon switching out). In conjunction with the defensive investment, Sitrus Berry recovery, Toxic and Protect, this means he can actually 1v1 a slew of Water-types and other bulky annoyances that he is faster than, stalling them out if needed. Having to switch out Arcanine to use Burn Up again isn't great, so you need to make the most out of when and who you target with the move; by playing smartly enough however, you can still switch Arcanine out safely and preserve another Intimidate/Burn Up for later. Just be wary of that typeless status if you do stay in, since Ice or Grass moves will now deal neutral damage, for example. On the flipside to that, if I ever need to HH EQ while typeless Arcanine's on the field...
252 Atk Garchomp Helping Hand Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 156 Def Arcanine in Psychic Terrain: 96-114 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
... a very good chance of putting him into Sitrus Berry activation range from full HP.
Arcanine sits at 124 Speed with the EVs, allowing him to outspeed a large portion of things on the bulkier side up to Tyrantrum4, the majority of which he'd either Burn Up on or try for a last-ditch Toxic. Here's some calcs:
I did actually end up trying a second run with this team and used Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, Shadow Ball, and Protect. I think that's probably going to be the best set I can find. Unfortunately I used up all of my luck in the first run and bombed out somewhere in the mid 30s. Decided that was a sign I should probably abandon that team for now.It's noteworthy that while it doesnt offer any answer to Steel types, Dazzling gleam can be learned by Alakazam and does offer acceptable coverage vs dark types. Not great, but it's something.
Care to explain how you have Seismic toss, a gen 3 tutor move, on a pokemon with its Hidden ability?Battle Tree Super Doubles 1.000 wins
Dusclops @ Eviolite
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 Sp.Def
- Trick Room
- Night Shade
- Seismic Toss
Thank you for pointing that out, it's a mistake in my write-up.Care to explain how you have Seismic toss, a gen 3 tutor move, on a pokemon with its Hidden ability?