Battle Tree Discussion and Records

[TimG57867]

Just looked at lolnubs team and I must say I am impressed! I haven't touched my Doubles Streak in Sun in a while but his team reminds me of mine in how, rather than using Whimsicott as Lvl 1 bait, I made it a competent at Lvl 50 to support Lele before going down. I always puzzled as to how to more consistently put down Trick Room but Knock Off is not something I thought of. Combined with Psychium Z and Taunt on Lele I could shut down a lot more Trick Room leads. Now I want to revisit my team and see how Knock Off on Whimsicott and my Lele can mesh to take out all the Trick Room leads. I am still gonna use Blastoise and Kartana though.

NoCheese Edit: This video goes through battle 2005.

There’s the stream from last night; I thought it was the easiest run of battles of the three streams. It definitely helped having the gang from Discord cheering on and keeping things interesting enough that 2 straight hours of Sun/Moon’s legendary theme didn’t become musical torture!

Battle #1993 was probably the most interesting one of the stream. Scarf Entei provided an opportunity to show that while 5 PP Choice users are among the biggest threats to the team, ‘biggest’ is a relative term. At full health with a Substitute, 9 turns of boosts, the potential for a free hit on the switch-in, and the option to use Protect on the first turn against the unknown set, Glalie would need a bad matchup plus bad Moody boosts for me to even have to switch in Mimikyu, at which point whatever the Red Card dragged in would have to be a bad matchup for both Mimikyu and Glalie. Honorable mention: later in the stream I switched back and forth between Durant and Mimikyu to waste all of Accelgor-4’s Protect PP and Entrain it eventually.

Spectacular work! 5 PP users are the bane of my existence. I need to start considering just boosting on the lead and hitting the mon that switches in. Having to gamble with the Red Card all the time can be dicey and it'd be great to cripple/K.O a Pokemon if the lead has to dip too early.

 

[Smuckem]

Reporting a completed streak of 177 wins in Sun Super Doubles, using the same QR team as reported in my last post

OVERDOSE

https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/rentalteam/sm/BT-4D54-A86D

I named the specific combination of 'mons used as such because it centers around utilizing Hyper Voice spam, with Tailwind support; Sylveon is there to throw some powerful opening shots if something immediately threatens MegaMence and needs to be taken out or at least weakened for a backup to come in and take out. Azelf is here as offensive coverage that the rest of the team lacks or, in the case of Flamethrower, doesn't find many opportunities to use. Buzzwole provides the physical offense, pairs with MegaMence/Zaelf for EQ usage, and is the safest switch-in due to its inherently solid Defense and Assautl Vest. Defensive synergy is a little poor with the team, so usage mainly revolves around making the Turn 1 really count and leaning on RNG a lot more than a good team should. Still, as previously stated I wasn't looking to achieve any streaks; rather, I was looking to corroborate or refute PikaCuber's recent double TR leads research, by finding a sample battle featuring these. I didn't find it, and my have missed a prime chance to possibly capture a double Z-Stone leads sample. What I did get, however, was a new best featuring a QR team not created by a Smogonite (if anyone recognizes the Trainer ID or IGN, let "James" know Smuckem thanks him and to drop on by to explain the overall team better). Blaziken was not used due to having a couple of shaky-accuracy moves; Slurpuff was not used due to me being a little bored with the whole Belly Drum sets you tend to see out of this thing.

The usage of double STAB Hyper Voice leads is a destructive sound that overwhelms opponents, and it reminded me of another such sound, one from many years ago...

I can't really be sure of the exact sets used, but as best as I've been able to suss out, what I ended up using was:

Salamence (F) (Lvl.50) @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 248 Spe
IVs: 31/0/31/31/22/31
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Flamethrower
- Tailwind
- Protect

Sylveon (M) (Lvl.83) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 244 Spe
IVs: 31/0/31/31/31/31
Modest Nature
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Hyper Voice
- Swift

Azelf (Lvl.50) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
IVs: 31/31/31/30/31/30
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot
- Energy Ball

Buzzwole (Lvl.65) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef
IVs: 31/31/31/14/31/31
Adamant Nature
- Ice Punch
- Superpower
- Earthquake
- Leech Life

Because this team relied on just powering through things and, in some cases, MegaMence staying alive long enough to get Tailwind, with only the nuance of Intimidate and "Protect/Sylveon takes out threat" to make it happen, this team had plenty of threats: anything that threatened the one-shot on MegaMence and was not Fairy-weak, Cursed Bodies (disabling whatever Sylveon did Turn 1 would hamper momentum), Flare Blitz (a number of the users of that move were capable of one-shotting Sylveon), physical Z-moves in general (a good number of these could one-shot Sylveon as well), Thunder Wave (any potential users as leads would virtually force the Turn 1 exposed Tailwind as MegaMence would get paralyzed, allowing for the rest of the team to hopefully take over), and Steel-types (as you can imagine, Hyper Voice as a whole doesn't work so well against these).

- Blue Battle (Exeggutor2/Alakazam3/Pidgeot/Gyarados) -- A scary start with MegaZam scoring two straight KOs, one horseshit crit and one earned, to put me behind and force me to go with nothing but brute force throughout, hoping to simply outlast him. Sylveon carried the load here, eliminating three and leaving Pidgeot weakened enough for Buzzwole to finish off (although Buzzwole caused a crucial shift in momentum by surviving Pidgeot's Hurricane with 10 HP, which led to the KO).
K7CW-WWWW-WWWS-CEGU
- Battle 65, vs. Naya (Cresselia4/Hydreigon3/Dragonite/Garchomp) -- Cress sets TR...and inadvertantly screws her team over, as this gives Sylveon a speed advantage to wipe her out and eliminate the Dragons with ease. More an amusing anecdote than anything else.
7NBG-WWWW-WWWS-CEJY
- Battle 101, vs. Perri (Slowking3/Slowbro2/Florges2/Musharna3) -- Slowbro2, in the hands of Perri specifically, was the cause of the worst experience I have had as a Smogonite, and seeing it here gave me flashbacks. I managed to pull through fine with the standard play, but mainly because I was forced into it and, had that cursed Quick Claw activated, would have started a quick slide towards oblivion. Thankfully, the backline was much more benign on this occasion. Many thanks to SadisticMystic for convincing me in real time that, frankly, I didn't have a choice but make the standard play.
86VG-WWWW-WWWS-CEP6
- Battle 150, vs. Sina (Drampa/Oranguru/Lilligant/Abomasnow3) -- my easiest Sina Battle in quite a while, it was refreshing for this normally tough Trainer to actually be manageable for once.
G65W-WWWW-WWWS-CETM
- Battle 172, vs. Xio (Shiinotic/Florges/Mimikyu3/Mawile) -- this battle snuck up on me as my closest battle until the loss; Xio is always an issue because her roster makes it a crapshoot as to whether or not MegaMence can set Tailwind and be sacced, or attack...and be sacced. I chose to Tailwind this time, and though it paid off, there were scary moments after Mence went down. I won this battle because, for once, Play Rough's accuracy screwed the AI as opposed to the climber...
H5SG-WWWW-WWWS-CF5Q
- Battle 178, vs. Leena (Jolteon3/Greninja4/Weavile4/Ribombee3) -- Setting Tailwind is often the only way to survive the Speed Trainers--I still need to find a witty name for that collective Trainer class--but here, it became impossible to do so because things threatening MegaMence were present at all times. Protean, Pickpocket, two 'mons downed thanks to Yawn, and an Ice Punch freeze combined to just blitzkrieg me. Despite that, the RNG was merciful enough to me through this run that I still managed to get this down to a 1v1 before said blitzkrieg struck this run down.
U4WW-WWWW-WWWS-CF69

So what's next? My mind is racing with future ideas, as always. All of these are meant to facilitate my continuing search for that double TR leads sample battle, so I'm still not looking for extensive streaks for now; i just want to try fun ideas during the search. Since this loss, I've already concocted and committed to using:
- assembling a team of Imperfects based off of the Tree's Speed Trainers, a good number of which I already have ready to go
- continuing the motif of QR teams featuring Slurpuff: https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/rentalteam/sm/BT-4AB2-B75A
- re-engaging The Room, specifically with the goal of using three members of ReptoAbysmal's current best Tree team, and MegaWile's slot being occupied by a number of different goons, mainly TR-optimized Tapu Bulu
- copying, for the most part, Josh C.'s current project ('tis a secret!)

I just want that fucking sample battle, so I'm receptive to trying anything out--throw ideas out, I'll listen! (as long as it's not USUM-exclusive; remember, this is regular Sun I'm using)

 

[GG Unit]

Spectacular work! 5 PP users are the bane of my existence. I need to start considering just boosting on the lead and hitting the mon that switches in. Having to gamble with the Red Card all the time can be dicey and it'd be great to cripple/K.O a Pokemon if the lead has to dip too early.

Of course, getting a free ~300 BP hit (with Smeargle’s attack and accuracy likely to be positive, so essentially a OHKO against anything that doesn’t resist Dark) rather than a plain old Frost Breath, which might not be boosted or even hit, on whatever comes in after a 5 PP Choice user switches out is basically the entire appeal of using Smeargle over Glalie. Even with Glalie I haven’t had a battle where I switched to Mimikyu turn 1 against a potential 5 PP Choice user so yeah, the less you do that the better.

 

[TimG57867]

Of course, getting a free ~300 BP hit (with Smeargle’s attack and accuracy likely to be positive) on whatever comes in after a 5 PP Choice user switches out is basically the entire appeal of using Smeargle over Glalie. Even with Glalie I haven’t had a battle where I switched to Mimikyu turn 1 against a potential 5 PP Choice user so yeah, the less you do that the better.

Note taken.

Oh I just remembered. To anyone interested in trying Durant-Moody strategy and not using Acupressure Drapion, I'd advise starting at battle 11 or 21. Turns out there's one little thing in those meme trash stages that's actually pretty scary and can't be worked around with a Durant lead: Toxic Spikes. Only set 1 Pokemon get it so it's irrelevant at higher stages. But it can actually be a problem if a T-Spikes mon leads since they'll have layer up before Mimikyu can come out and Taunt. If you're unfortunate enough to encounter this like I did when I started my new run with the Smeargle squad from the get-go where a punk led with T-Spikes Tentacruel, switch to Smeargle immediately after the Truant. Because of the way T-Spikes works, you have to get Smeargle poisoned beforee a 2nd layer gets set or else you'll get badly poisoned and probably lose. But if you get regular poison and don't sub, Smeargle can hang on for about 16 turns before the poison kills. With how weak enemy mons are at that level and immediate use of Coil, you stand a good chance of taking out all the enemy mons before the poison takes you out.

 

[Chanderule]

Thinking about attempting doubles with Chomp and Mega Gard, any tips on the other two Pokemon? Kartana?

 

[Worldie]

You're wanting either fake out, redirect or some form of speed control to help M-Garde speed tier and Garchomp goodbutnotgreat's one.

Incineroar happens to bring fake out, Intimidate and a optimal switch in resisting all Garde's weakness btw.

 

[Chanderule]

You're wanting either fake out, redirect or some form of speed control to help M-Garde speed tier and Garchomp goodbutnotgreat's one.

Incineroar happens to bring fake out, Intimidate and a optimal switch in resisting all Garde's weakness btw.

Thanks, and is Kartana a good Mon for that team? Maybe with Tailwind

 

[Coeur7]

EXCISED

 

[Worldie]

I don't see how you would have "stolen" the idea from anyone: the whole point of both the tree thread and discord would be to share experiences / ideas for others to use or improve :P

I'd never accuse anyone of stealing a idea, if anything I'd be proud of having come up with a pairing that makes sense for once lol

 

[DK Quagmire]

Just started playing this again and faced Kukui at battle 20 in super singles. I noticed something was wrong with a Pokemon in the battle tree spreadsheets, (Battle tree look up) based on the moves his lead Incineroar was using.

The Pokemon in question is Incineroar 3. (The only one that makes any sense) its holding a Firium Z, but the list says its moveset is:
Darkest Lariat. Throat Chop. Earthquake. Outrage.

Well this incineroar i fought was able to use the Z move Inferno overdrive on me, while i was using protect to scout. and kept spamming the move Flare Blitz like no tomorrow.

The spread sheet titled USUM battle tree informant has the moveset as this:
Darkest Lariat. Throat Chop. Earthquake. Flare Blitz.
However the spread sheet titled Battle tree + Battle royal + Battle agency data, is still saying that Incineroar3's last move is Outrage.

Not sure if anyone else has picked up on this, but thought i would let you guys know about this, as Kukui definitely used Inferno overdrive and Flare blitz on 2 consecutive turns.

 

[atsync]

Just started playing this again and faced Kukui at battle 20 in super singles. I noticed something was wrong with a Pokemon in the battle tree spreadsheets, (Battle tree look up) based on the moves his lead Incineroar was using.

The Pokemon in question is Incineroar 3. (The only one that makes any sense) its holding a Firium Z, but the list says its moveset is:
Darkest Lariat. Throat Chop. Earthquake. Outrage.

Well this incineroar i fought was able to use the Z move Inferno overdrive on me, while i was using protect to scout. and kept spamming the move Flare Blitz like no tomorrow.

The spread sheet titled USUM battle tree informant has the moveset as this:
Darkest Lariat. Throat Chop. Earthquake. Flare Blitz.
However the spread sheet titled Battle tree + Battle royal + Battle agency data, is still saying that Incineroar3's last move is Outrage.

Not sure if anyone else has picked up on this, but thought i would let you guys know about this, as Kukui definitely used Inferno overdrive and Flare blitz on 2 consecutive turns.

It sounds like you might have been looking at the wrong tab. At the bottom of the spread sheet there are multiple tabs and one is for SM tree (which has the Outrage set) and the other is for USUM (which has the Flare Blitz one).

 

[J1l7]

damn. hatched a shiny tyrunt.
also got a 6 iv one as well.
so i will use tyrantrum(shiny will be strong jaw) and a rock head one(option)
then will breed a chansey.
but what for the third member?

 

[Chanderule]

I guess something to not be steam-rolled by fighting, maybe Lele?

 

[TimG57867]

damn. hatched a shiny tyrunt.
also got a 6 iv one as well.
so i will use tyrantrum(shiny will be strong jaw) and a rock head one(option)
then will breed a chansey.
but what for the third member?

Tyrantrum in Singles, huh?

If you plan to use Head Smash I suggest otherwise. Terrible PP and it's gonna miss at a bad time sooner or later.

Hmm, you're gonna have Chansey so most special attacks shouldn't of an issue. Here are threats I forsee:

1. Most Fighting types. Whatever your 3rd is, it needs to be able to handle these.
2. Steel types. Aside from Earthquake, you won't be able to hit these very well and you don't want to overrely on Chansey.
3. Physical walls. Tyrantrum's middling initial speed tier means you can't really boost your Attack with moves effectively without support. So enemy mons with a lot of defense straight up will be annoying.
4. Fast Physical Attackers. And of course since Tyrantrum isn't particularly fast, strong mons which are faster and don't care about Chansey will be annoying. Despite Tyrantrum's Defense stat, it's typing will leave it open to a lot of stuff.
5. Mawile. If it comes out at the right time, it could give your current core problems.
6. Status/Hax. Tyrantrum is slow initially so will be frequent. Chansey has Natural Cure but fully utilizing it means switching her out for another mon which I don't think Tyrantrum will want to do too offen.


Those are just few issues I can think of. You're third mon and the sets you run will need to be able to handle most of these issues in some compacity. A good special attacker that can get around Fighting and Steel types or another wall that can debuff and handle status while stopping most physical attackers would probably be your best but.

That said, even with good teammates, I don't think Tyrantrum will bring enough to the table to consistently contribute in singles. Its speed tier, bad special bulk, lack of recovery, lack of effective debuff options, and defensive typing will hinder it a lot.

Have you considered Doubles? Mons like Tyrantrum struggle in Singles due to being too slow to strike first and not having the most convenient ways to recover health and debuff opponents. But in Doubles it's a lot easier to patch up a lot of its issues since it'll always have teammate alongside it.

 

[J1l7]

was doing strong jaw. third is a special mega gengar with perish trap, protect and disable.if i were to switch chansey it would be to gengar and chansey will have sub. the one problem i have is to reach the 107 speed.Whoever is kind enough to do the eving and gives it back(i had problems of peeps stealing my mons before...) will get a surprise
edit: huge thanks to smuckem for not only agreeing to ev the chansey, but is also breeding a timid one and will help me with my dex.The surprise was... a ha gligar, a ha decidueye and ub's

 

[Worldie]

To be honest you're likely better off going the mimikyu/durant route if you want to use a subpar mon like Tyrantrum. Get Sub up, Ddance and then try to kill things with... idk, Crunch?

That's likely your best bet.

 

[TimG57867]

To be honest you're likely better off going the mimikyu/durant route if you want to use a subpar mon like Tyrantrum. Get Sub up, Ddance and then try to kill things with... idk, Crunch?

That's likely your best bet.

This is probably the only way to make it work in singles. I'd run Jolly/Adamant with Max Speed and Attack with Leftovers and Protect, Substitute, Dragon Dance, and Crunch for moves. Without tools like Moody to boost stats every turn, Power Trip to hit STUPID hard, Frost Breath to bypass damage modifiers, and no way to boost Evasion, Defenses, or Accuracy, you're gonna be a lot more hax/priority/matchup prone compared to more conventional Truant sweepers, but this should allow Tyrantrum to do something.

 

[DK Quagmire]

I considered Tyrantrum back in ORAS Super singles. I tried it, but it ultimately lost around battle 37/38, after a string of misses. Head Smash is fun but 8 PP is awful.
I'm trying to use Venomoth again. I got a 260 Super Singles streak in ORAS using Venomoth, which I posted in Smogons Battle Maison thread.
It's only hard counters was anything with Soundproof. Stuff like Bastiodon and Electrode I could easily PP stall to win, but Abomasnow was always a problem for me. In fact my losing battle had me face an Abomasnow, and that was when I took my long hiatus to cool off from that.

Now i'm back, and i'm using the Durant/ Mimikyu strats, (RIP Prankster Pokemon) and i'm trying out Signal Beam as my main attack move over Bug Buzz, to see how that does.
So far not too much difference. Against a Togekiss on like battle 8 Signal Beam was a 3 HKO at +6 Tinted Lens. Bug Buzz would of easily been a 2HKO. But hey! Now I don't have to worry about soundproof!

 

[J1l7]

i got a porygon 2 that ill use in doubles instead of chansey(when i get my team for that ready, after singles and multi's.

 

[a loser]

Lost at 78 wins in USUM Super Doubles last night. Looked like I was going to make 90 with this until Slowking4 tanked Thunderbolt and set Trick Room.

The Team

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Taunt
- Protect

Greninja @ Electric Seed
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: X SpA
- Acrobatics
- Rock Slide
- Waterfall
- Shadow Sneak

Incineroar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Darkest Lariat
- Flare Blitz
- Fake Out
- U-turn

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Air Slash
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam

I definitely see my weakness to Rock, but that didn't trouble me too much in 79 battles. Trick Room isn't fun, but normally I can double target the setter and knock it out.

The team feature is Acrobatics Greninja, who comes out first with Tapu Koko and gets a defense boost and 110 BP Acrobatics. Greninja is great when hitting super effectively but otherwise can leave more to be desired since its only hitting with base 95 Atk. Rock Slide for spread damage coverage and flinches and Shadow Sneak for picking off foes or chipping fast threats like Raichu-Alola in terrain. Waterfall is there but I'm open to changing it. I guess my physical options are Low Kick, Gunk Shot, and Return.

Koko hits really hard with Terrain and LO boosted Thunderbolt. Dazzling Gleam is for Dragons and spread damage when needed. Taunt is there just in case but I don't use it much.

Incineroar is nice for Fake Out and Intimidate and AV helps it tank some hits. Darkest Lariat for consistent 85 BP and hitting through defensive boosts on stallers.

Charizard-Y made the team when I started having trouble with sand teams and bulky Rock types. But I'm open to suggestions on this team slot.

So, any thoughts on how to improve this and get to 90 wins? Thanks in advance!

 

[Worldie]

There's a lot of improvements you can be doing there, and one of them is significantly change Greninja's set. Not using Mat Block is almost a crime, and you're relying on an inaccurate Rock Slide which could really be lot of other things. (Greninja also gets U-turn, btw, if you really fancy preserving it without using sash).

It does feel you are particularly vulnerable to lead Aromatisse4, Slowking, or Oranguru (all potentially immune to taunt while threatening to set TR) showing up with another threatening lead as you have no way to KO them without double targetting, as well as a significant vulnerability to Fake out leads, as well as particularly obnoxious combinations from Raz/Granville/Plumeria and their speedmons that can outspeed & threaten your lead very hard.

If Charizard's role is to check bulky rocks, you definitely want something that's not vulnerable to electric (as well as not dieing to anything with Rock in its name). I'd suggest you Lando-I but it's unlikely you have access to a gen 5 one, options could include Garchomp, Megagross, (Mega)Latis, MegaScizor, etc.

 

[a loser]

There's a lot of improvements you can be doing there, and one of them is significantly change Greninja's set. Not using Mat Block is almost a crime, and you're relying on an inaccurate Rock Slide which could really be lot of other things. (Greninja also gets U-turn, btw, if you really fancy preserving it without using sash).

It does feel you are particularly vulnerable to lead Aromatisse4, Slowking, or Oranguru (all potentially immune to taunt while threatening to set TR) showing up with another threatening lead as you have no way to KO them without double targetting, as well as a significant vulnerability to Fake out leads, as well as particularly obnoxious combinations from Raz/Granville/Plumeria and their speedmons that can outspeed & threaten your lead very hard.

If Charizard's role is to check bulky rocks, you definitely want something that's not vulnerable to electric (as well as not dieing to anything with Rock in its name). I'd suggest you Lando-I but it's unlikely you have access to a gen 5 one, options could include Garchomp, Megagross, (Mega)Latis, MegaScizor, etc.

Honestly I completely forgot about Mat Block. That won't protect from Fake Out, right? What is the main purpose of using it? As for U-Turn I've considered it, but that would take away the defense boost from the seed.

Agreed with Charizard and the terrain. This has led to issues against Electric spam teams. I don't have gen 5 Lando-I but I might try out some of those options you mentioned.

 

[Worldie]

Mat Block doesn't block from priority or status, its main usage is basically guarante an attack (or a setup) to your other lead against anything that is slower than Greninja (which is a significant portion of the game).

 

[Mike81401]

I'm surprised there isn't a Battle Tree VR yet. It might help new players learn what mons are best for the tree (along with set recommendations). Just my 2 cents tho.

 

[Worldie]

I'm surprised there isn't a Battle Tree VR yet. It might help new players learn what mons are best for the tree (along with set recommendations). Just my 2 cents tho.

There isn't because it's not realistic to create / maintain. There's too many factors at play and lot of mons only work within certain comps.