Battle Tree Discussion and Records

Ok guys I am about to head to the move tutor in ORAS with Metagross.

My team will typically be Chomp + Fini/Suicune and the Gross.

Bullet Punch
Iron Head
Zen Headbutt
Ice Punch or Thunderpunch?

Ice will hit the grass types that are annoying along with Dragons/Birds/Ground stuff.

Thunder hits bulky Water types (which Fini stalls out anyway) and Birds.

Initially I was thinking Thunder but Ice has better coverage I think.
 
Ok guys I am about to head to the move tutor in ORAS with Metagross.

My team will typically be Chomp + Fini/Suicune and the Gross.

Bullet Punch
Iron Head
Zen Headbutt
Ice Punch or Thunderpunch?

Ice will hit the grass types that are annoying along with Dragons/Birds/Ground stuff.

Thunder hits bulky Water types (which Fini stalls out anyway) and Birds.

Initially I was thinking Thunder but Ice has better coverage I think.
Devil's advocate here. Why not both and drop Zen Headbutt? What does it hit that Chomp and the Tapu can't? I've got both on my Mega-Meta. Though I forgot Iron Head (oh well) and I'm running Meteor Mash/Hammer Arm/Thunder Punch/Ice Punch.
 
Why not try running a physical protean Greninja to catch your opponents off guard. It has very good physical movepool, with moves such as Ice Punch, Gunk Shot, Night Slash, Power Up Punch, Acrobatics, you name it. You can also try using it as a hazard user with toxic spikes, though there are better options since it is very frail...
There are so many things wrong with that, so let me start with the biggest: The AI doesn't predict your actions. It reacts to them after you do them. The AI will not predict your Surf and switch to a Water Absorber, it will make that switch the turn after. Second, the AI doesn't try to guess your set or anything. It knows your set already, and reacts based on what happened last turn. Even if it was possible to catch the AI off-guard, it wouldn't even matter. Lastly, that set isn't effective. Gunk Shot and Acrobatics have harsh drawbacks and everything else you listed is just too weak. Special Greninja does everything much better.
 
Devil's advocate here. Why not both and drop Zen Headbutt? What does it hit that Chomp and the Tapu can't? I've got both on my Mega-Meta. Though I forgot Iron Head (oh well) and I'm running Meteor Mash/Hammer Arm/Thunder Punch/Ice Punch.
This idea. I like this idea.
 
You know, after my agonizing trainwreck Super Multi run, I feared I was never going to break 50. I tried, quite a bit in fact, wracking up over 695 BP over the course of a week or so, but something would either blindside me, my AI partner would screw me over yet again, or I'd choke and shoot myself in the foot. I kept getting close, sometimes getting to the high 40's, but never broke.

Until now.

CY3G-WWWW-WWW6-2YZF

This was a long time coming, and I feel amazed and happy to have finally gotten a stamp in the Super Battle Tree. I will admit I got very lucky with Blue's team layout and not having to deal with a rampaging Megatar, but the victory feels so good. I doubt I'll ever reach a streak into the hundreds with my shabbily cobbled rain team, but for Doubles, it did its job well and supported itself nicely.

Kingdra (Timid)
Choice Specs
Scald
Hydro Pump
Draco meteor
Ice Beam

Politoed (Modest)
Fightinium Z
Ice Beam
Focus Blast
Hydro Pump
Scald

Tapu Fini (Naive)
Leftovers
Moonblast
Surf
Ice Beam
Grass Knot

Mimikyu (Naughty)
Lum Berry
Play Rough
Swords Dance
Shadow Claw
Leech Life
 
Ok guys I am about to head to the move tutor in ORAS with Metagross.

My team will typically be Chomp + Fini/Suicune and the Gross.

Bullet Punch
Iron Head
Zen Headbutt
Ice Punch or Thunderpunch?

Ice will hit the grass types that are annoying along with Dragons/Birds/Ground stuff.

Thunder hits bulky Water types (which Fini stalls out anyway) and Birds.

Initially I was thinking Thunder but Ice has better coverage I think.
You should try putting Hone Claws into that set as well. It will not only make Gross more powerful, but it will allow Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt to always land (Execept if your going up against Double Team Rotom, Minimize A. Muk, or any other evasion stall sets).
 
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What's a good sweeping partner for a Toxapex/Gliscor core? One that a bit more uncommon or fun than M-Scizor, M-Gyara, etc? Just want to try something I haven't used much before so it doesn't have to be too optimal.
 
What's a good sweeping partner for a Toxapex/Gliscor core? One that a bit more uncommon or fun than M-Scizor, M-Gyara, etc? Just want to try something I haven't used much before so it doesn't have to be too optimal.
If you don't mind a double EQ weakness, M-Lucario is fun! He is a glass cannon but it is very satisfying.
 
Intro:

Hello to all the die-hard fans of the Battle Tree (…and Maison, Tower, Subway) and creative win streaks!
This post will focus on a streak of 68 wins for the Battle Tree Super Multi Records with Real Live Person.


Proof.jpg
Team Report:
For many months, we both struggled to find the right team to make a record run with.

In the end, PokeBank allowed us to import our team from years past that we used in the Battle Subway and Battle Maison. One combo my friend and I used a ton back then was with lead-offs that use Discharge and Earthquake.

Side note: This team would have been nice to have when completing Orre Colosseum in Pokémon XD: Gale of Darkness. Those battles with all the hax, the one and done loss mechanic, and the tough match-ups created the most salt and frustrations found in any Pokemon game. Yet, beating Cipher Admin Eldes made conquering the Orre Colosseum that much sweeter. For proof of its challenge see article by Minority Suspect here, http://www.smogon.com/ingame/guides/xd-orre.
Back to the Battle Tree report…

We wanted our team to: be built around fast and offensive lead-offs that use Discharge and Earthquake to wreck opponent, have back-ups resisting their weaknesses with priority moves or moves nullifying set-up mons, and use no mega/z-move powered pokemon. Also important for all team members to carry Protect to aid scouting and stall out weather/trick room.

Our Discharge and Earthquake users ended up as Zapdos and Garchomp. Both are fast at 102 and 100 base speed, dish out plenty of damage with spread moves they are both immune to, and are immune to a now-nerfed Gen VII but still annoying paralysis.
Most of the time, Zapdos and Garchomp with Life Orbs equipped sweep clean-through teams with their spread moves. But they can also KO other threats with either single-target moves or one single-target/double-target moves (thunderbolt/dragon claw, thunderbolt/earthquake, discharge/iron head, discharge/dragon claw). We ran hidden power ice on Zapdos to hit grass types and mons 4x weak to ice (Mence, Lando, etc.). *Worth mentioning that getting a double paralysis from discharge and cleaning up with earthquake NEVER ceases to be satisfying.
If we could not make Zapdos and Garchomp work from the start (“I see you dual ice leads, fast rock-slide flinching leads, and fast dragon attackers”), our team can rely on protect and/or switching in back-ups.

Back-up one was Scizor, which fills numerous roles and doesn’t need much explanation. It has priority bullet punch to knock out frail threats and can get chip damage with it to pick up needed KOs. Technician-boosted Bug Bite does work and eats berries. Scizor also has numerous resistances and key ones needed for team synergy (ice, dragon, fairy, psychic) and holds the Lum Berry to cure anything.

Back-up two was a personal favorite because I never thought it could or would be used in a Tree, Maison, Tower, Subway streak (“correct me if I’m wrong). This mon was (“drumroll…….”) Tentacruel!
It looks sick, can get your mons sick (see “sludge bomb”), and can burn you (see “scald”). But wait, there’s more…….Tentacruel became the unsung utility player of our team. For starters it has a great set of resistances to the point that it almost resists every other weakness on the team (fire, ice, fairy), takes neutral damage from dragon/rock, and carries other nice resists (water, fighting, poison). Scald prevents frozen shenanigans and can stop non-guts attackers in their tracks. Clear Body prevents its stats from being lowered to keep it functioning as the tank it is (“still low base defense…”). And it’s not a slow tank either with it sitting at base 100 speed to pick up KOs or damage slower threats. Also it holds the Black Sludge to recover HP and punish mons that may trick items on to it. Haze laughs in the face of set-up mons and resets the stats of an intimidated Garchomp or Scizor.


Here’s the in-depth set breakdown.....................

Team Build - Dr. J:
Garchomp @ Life Orb

Ability: Rough Skin

Nature: Adamant

EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP

-Protect

-Dragon Claw

-Earthquake

-Iron Head

Scizor @ Lum Berry

Ability: Technician

Nature: Adamant

EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe

-Superpower

-Bullet Punch

-Bug Bite

-Protect

Team Build - Lancer:
Zapdos @ Life Orb

Ability: Pressure

Nature: Modest

EVs: 252 Spa / 252 Spe / 4 HP

-Thunderbolt

-Protect

-Hidden Power Ice

-Discharge

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge

Ability: Clear Body

Nature: Bold

EVs: 120 HP / 200 Def / 108 Spa / 80 Spe

-Sludge Bomb

-Scald

-Haze

-Protect



Threat List:
  • Faster Ice pokemon that know blizzard/ice beam/icy wind!
  • Rotom-Heat
  • Rotom-Ice
  • Mega Charizard X
  • Mega Metagross
  • Aerodactyl
  • Entei
  • Salamence
  • Salazzle
  • Red card holders that switch in Tentacruel into earthquake or Scizor into discharge!
  • Archeops
  • Wide-Guard users that prevent Discharge and Earthquake
  • Choice-Scarfed Garchomp
  • Flygon
*There are other threats Lancer and I forget about but they are out there.


The Losing Battle:

Facing Trainers Susanna and Dooley, who lead Flygon and Garchomp. Turns follow…

  1. Our Garchomp/Zapdos both use Protect
    • Garchomp uses Outrage - Protect saves Garchomp
    • Flygon uses Rockium Z powered Stone Edge - hits Zapdos who has 66% left
  2. Dooley Garchomp uses Outrage - hits traded in Scizor who has 68% left
    • Zapdos uses Hidden Power Ice - OHKO Flygon
  3. Dooley Garchomp uses Outrage - Protect used by Scizor
    • Charizard uses Charizardite X and uses Dragon Dance
    • Zapdos uses Hidden Power Ice - OHKO Garchomp
  4. Scizor uses Bullet Punch - chips Metagross
    • Charizard X uses Flare Blitz - KO Scizor
    • Metagross uses Metagrossite and uses Zen Headbutt - KO Zapdos
  5. Charizard X uses Dragon Rush - OHKO Garchomp
    • Metagross uses Zen Headbutt - Protect used by Tentacruel
  6. Charizard X uses Dragon Dance
    • Metagross uses Zen Headbutt - OHKO Tentacruel
Cue the paragraph summary…………

Tough matchup for us for many reasons. Each lead pokemon has two sets of moves that can OHKO our Garchomp/Zapdos leads and Dooley’s non-mega Garchomp can 100% outspeed us. Figure we should scout their sets with double Protect. Determined their sets by this, with scarfed Outrage Garchomp being able to heavily damage 3 of our 4 mons and Flygon threatens Tentacruel with Earthquake. So we take out Flygon turn two and know we can take out Garchomp turn 3. Unfortunately in goes Susanna’s Charizard (see threat list), which is dangerous because it: can become Charizard X, can clean up Garchomp/Scizor, and has dragon dance to sweep. Worst case, it is Charizard X so we cannot 2HKO it with Zapdos and Scizor. Have to just take out Garchomp as planned. We are now up four to two mons at this point, but slowly begin to realize the opponents’ team could to lead to our demise……… Which is confirmed by their last mon, Metagross, which can: mega evolve to outspeed Zapdos/Tentacruel, 2HKO a 100% Zapdos, and OHKO Tentacruel. At this point, best plan is to chip Metagross with Scizor and hope for a Zen Headbutt miss on low health Zapdos. This doesn’t happen, so we now go from four > two mons to now two mons = two mons. Win condition is straightforward:
  • Charizard X must miss 75% accurate Dragon Rush on Garchomp
  • Mega Metagross targets Tentacruel using Protect
  • Garchomp wins the match with Earthquake!
Unfortunately, win condition does not occur and Tentacruel is swiftly KO’d next turn by Mega Metagross.

Conclusion:

Time to work back up to a 100+ win streak goal........

Lancer and I wish good luck to our fellow record streak chasers for all areas of the Battle Tree!

*Last thing, if there was anyway to win this battle assuming the same pokemon/movesets are used, please feel free to let me know.
 
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Level 51

the orchestra plays the prettiest themes
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Hello, I'm back, but with nothing too earth-shattering. Reporting a lost streak at a final tally of 232 wins in the Super Doubles Battle Tree.

Video: WPXW-WWWW-WWW6-2Q36

"Hey, hey? You don’t have any regrets? Right? You’ve got no regrets, right?" - Youngster Napoleon

Similar team to my last streak, with a few rather minor adjustments. For the most everything plays the same way, but I'll point out the changes here:
Mone Mone (Pheromosa) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 SpA / 244 Spe
Naughty Nature
IVs: 8 HP / 8 Def / 8 SpD
- Lunge
- Low Kick
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Minor adjustments to this set: 252 Spe hits a stat of 203, but there are no Pokemon at a stat of 202 in the Battle Tree, so it's safe to drop by one point of Speed to gain a little extra power on Ice Beam. Furthermore, people didn't like the fact that I used a 0/31/0/31/0/31 Pheromosa in my last run, so I grabbed a copy of turskain's legitimate (soft-resetted for by him) Pheromosa (also comes with nickname).

Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 4 SpA / 4 SpD / 68 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Substitute
- Protect

Unchanged. I considered briefly using Taunt over Substitute on Tapu Lele, but I figured I wouldn't know when to use Taunt anyway because it's so hard to figure out whether that opposing set you're staring down is the Double Team / Trick Room version of it or not.

Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 20 SpA / 236 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Protect

Giving mixmence a shot in the Battle Tree! Transferred from my Top 8 Singapore MSS team from VGC 2016, I decided to try Hyper Voice as an alternative form of spread damage which doesn't have to be Protected or Wide Guarded against by my ally. It was generally intended to finish off things at lower health, such as the Jolteon which both my leads just barely fail to KO, as well as things with Focus Sashes; furthermore, the chip damage from Hyper Voice really helped to put things into KO range of Tapu Lele's Psychic, which does 90% to a surprising number of things. The set worked out alright, and I didn't really miss Dragon Dance, but I feel as if 20 SpA is just way too little investment; on the other hand, I don't want to curb the damage output of Double-Edge and Earthquake just for the sake of a single, weaker move which I never really intended to be dealing much damage anyway. Perhaps an adjustment for another time.

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpA / 36 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Wide Guard
- King's Shield

Unchanged.

It's quite ironic that I lost to the very trainer who I so enjoyed quoting in my last post, and to the very same set that caused my last loss, Zapdos-2. I suppose it seems that the Battle Tree does have a sense of humour, after all.

So what contributed to my loss this time? Was it that the supposed improvements to the team actually made it worse, contributing to a winstreak of less than half my record? I'd argue against this proposition, even though the empirical data (from two samples, lol) seems to show otherwise. After my first loss to Zapdos-2 I put a lot of thought into movesets which could potentially curtail the effects of Double Team / Minimize users on this team. This is what I came up with:
  • Taunt on Tapu Lele: usually if I can hit a Double Team user with Tapu Lele it would be more of a step in a positive direction than hitting it with Taunt. Besides, Substitute is good.
  • Confide on Mega Salamence: always hits, but doesn't really do much towards beating the Double Team user. Slows down my loss at best, and if the RNG wants me to lose Confide isn't going to stop it - critical hits exist too.
  • Toxic on Mega Salamence: probably the best option of the lot, but I tunnel vision'd myself into Hyper Voice, and thus managed to convince myself that if I could hit Toxic I may as well go straight for an attack on them. Ha ha, logical fallacies are funny.
This has been the first time where I feel like I've been well and truly "haxed" out of the Battle Tree, and boy, it feels bad - but even so I put the word "haxed" between two inverted commas, knowing that I can't even sincerely accurately push all the blame to the random number generator in this instance. In this battle Zapdos-2 got 9/10 avoids at a mere +1 evasiveness, which is pretty darn unlikely (approx. 0.002956% of my luck being at least this bad, for reference), but there was an element of human error involved. I suppose I was just unlucky in this run that my fateful encounter with Zapdos-2 had to come at #233 instead of at #486 or higher.
  • I didn't pay attention to turn 1, and thus didn't know that Zapdos was Zapdos-2 until my Psychic missed it on Turn 2 (which is why I Protected Pheromosa on Turn 2)
  • I could have used Psychic on Zapdos on Turn 1 to scout its set (of Napoleon's two Zapdos sets, one outruns Tapu Lele and one does not), after which I could have blown it away with a Shattered Psyche.
Hey, hey? You don’t have any regrets? Right? You’ve got no regrets, right?

I suppose this is, all in all, just a matter of fatigue - recently I haven't been feeling quite as enthusiastic about climbing the Battle Tree as I did before, and in fact around battle #230 I almost fell asleep in my chair, prompting me to get a cup of ice water to wake myself up (the ice tasted like plastic, by the way) so I could carry on in my "grind towards 500" that never was. I've also been distracted by PS! and Discord and other stuff which is far more interesting than sitting in front of the Battle Tree spreadsheet looking up sets over and over and over again, and I often miss turns happening on my 3DS because I'm getting a drink or eating chocolate or doing something on Discord - so at the end of the day I suppose I just don't have the mental discipline to really go for those record-breaking streaks. I'm not exactly sure how I managed to sit in my room for hours on end doing like 80~90 battles a day en route to 485; maybe that was just a different me who actually cared about getting a huge streak in the Battle Tree.

That's all I have for now. I'd say that I'd see everyone back atop the Tree, but I'm not so sure now. Until a potential next time, signing off. ~
 

Smuckem

Resident Facility Bot Wannabe
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Back-up two was a personal favorite because I never thought it could or would be used in a Tree, Maison, Tower, Subway streak (correct me if I’m wrong). This mon was (“drumroll…….”) Tentacruel!
As far as I can tell, it has not been used for any leaderboard-eligible streaks. That is not to say it hasn't been used for Maison trophy runs...I would have to go through each entry in the Maison Trophy Hall of Fame to be sure. Still, fantastic work!
As was pointed out to me by turskain, one other person has successfully used it to a streak:
Chinese Dood's 349-win Subway Singles streak
Still, fantastic work!

I'm definitely stealing this team for my eventual Multis stamp run.
 
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Devil's advocate here. Why not both and drop Zen Headbutt? What does it hit that Chomp and the Tapu can't? I've got both on my Mega-Meta. Though I forgot Iron Head (oh well) and I'm running Meteor Mash/Hammer Arm/Thunder Punch/Ice Punch.
This idea. I like this idea.
The main perk to Zen Headbutt is outspeeding and OHKOing Mega Blaziken before the Speed Boost activation and killing it. It also allows you to quickly dispatch Mega Heracross without sacking Metagross in the process (you must have both good damage and at least one flinch to ensure Iron Head kills it before it finishes gross.)

Mega Heracross is a problem for your team in general if you're looking to KO it without sacking something. It survives 252+ Moonblast from offensively oriented Fini and easily OHKOs with Bullet Seed, while max defensive Fini is not completely safe from an OHKO, either. While an OHKO on standard Chomp (assuming Scarf) is unlikely, it inflicts 89% minimum with Pin Missle and it's not safe to switch either teammate into it. If it comes in second while Chomp is movelocked into Quake, you're losing something. Zen Headbutt on Megagross alleviates much of this. In general I'd prefer being able to sack the many bulky-ish Fighting types without taking my chances or relying on Fini to always be there to smooth it out (Conkeldurr4 is another giant thorn for Zen-less Megagross and easily outdamages it.)
 
The main perk to Zen Headbutt is outspeeding and OHKOing Mega Blaziken before the Speed Boost activation and killing it. It also allows you to quickly dispatch Mega Heracross without sacking Metagross in the process (you must have both good damage and at least one flinch to ensure Iron Head kills it before it finishes gross.)

Mega Heracross is a problem for your team in general if you're looking to KO it without sacking something. It survives 252+ Moonblast from offensively oriented Fini and easily OHKOs with Bullet Seed, while max defensive Fini is not completely safe from an OHKO, either. While an OHKO on standard Chomp (assuming Scarf) is unlikely, it inflicts 89% minimum with Pin Missle and it's not safe to switch either teammate into it. If it comes in second while Chomp is movelocked into Quake, you're losing something. Zen Headbutt on Megagross alleviates much of this. In general I'd prefer being able to sack the many bulky-ish Fighting types without taking my chances or relying on Fini to always be there to smooth it out (Conkeldurr4 is another giant thorn for Zen-less Megagross and easily outdamages it.)
So for that team would you sacrifice Bullet Punch for one of Hammer Arm/Ice Punch/Thunder Punch? They're not running Hammer Arm which I really like on my Mega-gross and I like the coverage of the two elemental punches.

Also, what do you think of Iron Head over Meteor Mash?
 
There are so many things wrong with that, so let me start with the biggest: The AI doesn't predict your actions. It reacts to them after you do them. The AI will not predict your Surf and switch to a Water Absorber, it will make that switch the turn after. Second, the AI doesn't try to guess your set or anything. It knows your set already, and reacts based on what happened last turn. Even if it was possible to catch the AI off-guard, it wouldn't even matter. Lastly, that set isn't effective. Gunk Shot and Acrobatics have harsh drawbacks and everything else you listed is just too weak. Special Greninja does everything much better.
dammit, you got there before I could, but one thing I'd like to add: toxic spikes is nigh-useless in 3v3 where the AI only rarely switches, hazards in general don't do much and attempts at hazard-shuffling sets don't often make for high streaks (certainly not higher than standard special Greninja can achieve on its own) since it means you waste a teamslot on the hazard-shuffler, where a teamslot is more important on 3v3 than 6v6.

You said Gunk Shot and Acrobatics have harsh drawbacks, this is true, but I just want to say that Gunk Shot's is that it has piss-poor accuracy which is a terrible, terrible idea for (almost) any move played in the Battle Tree.
It's almost like KingAmphy456 doesn't realize the Battle Tree is an ingame facility and not some sort of PvP place but that's just my impression
 
dammit, you got there before I could, but one thing I'd like to add: toxic spikes is nigh-useless in 3v3 where the AI only rarely switches, hazards in general don't do much and attempts at hazard-shuffling sets don't often make for high streaks (certainly not higher than standard special Greninja can achieve on its own) since it means you waste a teamslot on the hazard-shuffler, where a teamslot is more important on 3v3 than 6v6.

You said Gunk Shot and Acrobatics have harsh drawbacks, this is true, but I just want to say that Gunk Shot's is that it has piss-poor accuracy which is a terrible, terrible idea for (almost) any move played in the Battle Tree.
It's almost like KingAmphy456 doesn't realize the Battle Tree is an ingame facility and not some sort of PvP place but that's just my impression
:mad:First of all: when I was describing that set, I was describing it as if it were to be used on online battling and kinda got off topic. And yeah, the set isn't that great, and now I have no idea why I tried running one in the 1st place when its Sp. Atk is alot better, but it has been done before from what I heard. And just to let you know, i've gotten up to an 89 win streak on BT Super Singles with Tapu Koko, Garchomp, and M. Lucario.
 

Smuckem

Resident Facility Bot Wannabe
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
:mad:First of all: when I was describing that set, I was describing it as if it were to be used on online battling and kinda got off topic. And yeah, the set isn't that great, and now I have no idea why I tried running one in the 1st place when its Sp. Atk is alot better, but it has been done before from what I heard. And just to let you know, i've gotten up to an 89 win streak on BT Super Singles with Tapu Koko, Garchomp, and M. Lucario.
Word, good luck and good fortune with making that last step to the leaderboard. And if not...there's always the alternative list you'll end up on.
 
So for that team would you sacrifice Bullet Punch for one of Hammer Arm/Ice Punch/Thunder Punch? They're not running Hammer Arm which I really like on my Mega-gross and I like the coverage of the two elemental punches.

Also, what do you think of Iron Head over Meteor Mash?
Absolutely keep Bullet Punch. I would personally get rid of Hammer Arm and an elemental punch for Iron Head and Zen Headbutt myself, but there are pros to be had from running both. If I got rid of one it would probably be Thunder Punch if only because Fini is a very reliable answer for waters, and Zen Headbutt is still able to kill things that Fini would not, like Tentacruel and Toxapex.

Iron Head versus Meteor Mash comes down to how you feel about that 90%. All Meteor Mash really brings to the table is that (albeit great) hax boost, which statistically is rarer than the flinching, which will also screw the opponent more if MM doesn't OHKO them.

My mention of Zen Headbutt was just meant to be food for thought. I don't have an established streak in singles and my mega of choice would more than likely be Salamence (I think the Mence/Aegis core is more sound.) I do think it's more helpful to have guaranteed OHKOs on strong pokes than some additional coverage which, in the likes of the more prominent bulky waters, is still not going to be enough to OHKO. Zen Headbutt will not have you checked nearly as hard as with some fire types Gross may find itself against after a really shitty battle, also. While Thunderpunch is more helpful against something like Zard Y, it's still not a guaranteed OHKO either way, so the loss is not gigantic. Like I said, food for thought. Since Zen Headbutt is easily relearnable, I would suggest keeping your moveset as is and seeing what kinds of battles are repeatedly not going your way and then make changes and considerations.

Still, Hammer Arm is going to fuck Megagross more than helping it because of the speed loss. Base 110 hits some really, really important marks for Metagross and its typing, and you do not want to checkmate yourself with a speed drop against things it otherwise would have easily finished without attacking second. Fighting is a good offensive type but still redundant given the dual typings it faces and the kinds of muscle it's already bringing to the table.
 
Absolutely keep Bullet Punch. I would personally get rid of Hammer Arm and an elemental punch for Iron Head and Zen Headbutt myself, but there are pros to be had from running both. If I got rid of one it would probably be Thunder Punch if only because Fini is a very reliable answer for waters, and Zen Headbutt is still able to kill things that Fini would not, like Tentacruel and Toxapex.

Iron Head versus Meteor Mash comes down to how you feel about that 90%. All Meteor Mash really brings to the table is that (albeit great) hax boost, which statistically is rarer than the flinching, which will also screw the opponent more if MM doesn't OHKO them.

My mention of Zen Headbutt was just meant to be food for thought. I don't have an established streak in singles and my mega of choice would more than likely be Salamence (I think the Mence/Aegis core is more sound.) I do think it's more helpful to have guaranteed OHKOs on strong pokes than some additional coverage which, in the likes of the more prominent bulky waters, is still not going to be enough to OHKO. Zen Headbutt will not have you checked nearly as hard as with some fire types Gross may find itself against after a really shitty battle, also. While Thunderpunch is more helpful against something like Zard Y, it's still not a guaranteed OHKO either way, so the loss is not gigantic. Like I said, food for thought. Since Zen Headbutt is easily relearnable, I would suggest keeping your moveset as is and seeing what kinds of battles are repeatedly not going your way and then make changes and considerations.

Still, Hammer Arm is going to fuck Megagross more than helping it because of the speed loss. Base 110 hits some really, really important marks for Metagross and its typing, and you do not want to checkmate yourself with a speed drop against things it otherwise would have easily finished without attacking second. Fighting is a good offensive type but still redundant given the dual typings it faces and the kinds of muscle it's already bringing to the table.
I appreciate the insight. Currently running on ThunderPunch, Ice Punch, Iron Head,and Bullet punch. Ironhead and Ice Punch have been the most useful so far, and Ice Punch saved my ass against a late Latios.

ThunderPunch, admittedly, has been the least useful so far. I have used it a few times and it is fine but Zen Headbutt could replace it.

I am not sure if the move relearner in Sun and Moon can re-teach tutor moves that you have known before tho, so I am hesitant to get rid of it.
 
It cannot; the SM move relearner is for level-up moves and egg moves obtained no earlier than XYORAS. Which is precisely why I said to keep both punches until he felt it was time to get rid of one.
 
Super Doubles streak came crashing to a halt at match 73. This was a combination of me playing poorly and lacking anything to solidly deal with a certain mon...

ATUG-WWWW-WWW6-37WY

In hindsight, I should have targeted the Suicune right off the bat since Pelliper is nothing more than a glorified annoyance, but something told me to deal with the weaker link first. Then came the Carracoasta, which I feared would be the SS variant so I targeted that, and then the Megapert showed up and I knew I had shot myself in the foot. Fini's death before being able to break through Suicune was what sealed the deal.

Oh well, at least this is the farthest I've ever gotten in a Battle facility in any game, and I'm happy about that.
 
Welp I'm up through 71 with this team in Super Singles. Taking a break. These games are stressful.

Metagross is really fun but I'm not sure if he is a slightly worse Scizor. His coverage is great along with his resistance to Dragon, but there are a lot of speedy EQ users that I am running in to now that he cannot one shot. I might switch back to Scizor moving forward, even though he has been a lot of fun.
 
*taptap* Is this mic on? Oh shit it is... *tries to runaway*

I have been a looooooong long time Smogon lurker (meloveyoulongtime), first time poster. I have a 108 Singles Streak. Here goes: (All bottle capped)

Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Hasty Nature
252 Atk, 252 Speed, 4 Sp.Atk
-High Jump Kick
-U-turn
-Poison Jab
-Ice Beam

My Scout/Wall-Breaker(phys)/Revenge Killer. Azelf was too weak. Deoxys-A too strong. Pheromosa is fucking goldilocks with amazing coverage. With lead all-out-attacker Pheromosa follow this format:
-If weak to HJK and lacks protect and is weak to it, use it. (Like T-tar)
-If low defense and normal defense to HJK, make sure it will OHKO it with HJK and HJK it. Otherwise U-turn or coverage move it. (Like Jolteon)
-U-turn for ghosts and all questionable foes.
-Beware of Ice Beam-ing dragons 4x weak to Ice: many have Yache berries
-If up against an Extreme Speed, Gale Wings, Sucker Punch, or if I'm just paranoid about any priority move, I'll hard-switch to Lele.
-Always U-turn or hard switch when in doubt (especially if outsped (limited to what at 223 speed... ~7 Pokémon?, which is rare.)

I like to see my Pheromosa as Jumpman16's Starmie from his gen IV battle tower run. She can flatten whole teams all on her own given the right circumstances.

Tapu Lele @ Choice Specs
Modest Nature (Speed is fine)
252 Speed, 252 Sp. A., 6 HP
-Thunderbolt
-Psychic
-Focus Blast
-Moonblast

My Special wallbreaker. (I'm noticing that early 7th gen is very wallbreaker heavy... similar to 6th gen, but much less defense/stall oriented for the player.) I have used my master ball all for this multiple soft-resetted goddess. Her psychics can melt faces and regi-ices in two turns. (I forgot to save that battle though, arg.) I'm probably a bit off for coverage though. I only use FB so often... I do like the second layer of offensive push against Ices though, if only for my third member:

(Also watch out for Dark Pokémon. If locked into Psychic, make the switch if M-Sala can handle it.)

Salamence-M @ Salamencite
Naive Nature (but it's Shiny!!!!)
252 Speed & Attack, 4 Sp. A
-Dragon Dance
-Roost
-Earthquake
-Double-edge

My end-round sweeper and phys. offense weakener. Pretty standard minus the MixMence-ish Nature, but it gets the job done. Just don't put it out into special moves as much lol. Go +6 on shit that won't hurt you—grasse, fires, y'know.

Offensively, this team is amazing. Most are 2HKO'd at a minimum. This makes streaks very fast. The only problem is, they can be pretty volatile and risk strong offense in the same rate. This is the glass cannon team. You MUST at least have a damage calculator of basic move sets to make sure you get some OHKOs. If not, you risk wiping. A good litmus test is if Pheromosa doesn't hit the OHKO, be sure to U-Turn. Lele and M-Sala are different enough to weaken most attackers.

Notable Threats:

-Both Megazards: They can resist much I dish out and return the favor if I don't pivot right.
-Faeries: Poison Jab on Phero only goes so far.
-Trick Room: If NOT RUN BY FAERIES, I can stall them out with DDs and roosts with M-Sala. But add faeries and fuck it all. Any suggestions???????????
-Usual QC/Custap bs... Especially since phero outspeeds almost everything. Hard-switch if I notice a Quick Claw or Custap user.
-Trying to wallbreak that which can't be wallbreaked: It's no doubt that 7th gen. Pokémon is full of wallbreaking, hit hard and fast. Those that resist this suck.
-Ghosts can be a bit of a pain (especially Gengar)—I might swap out Focus Blast for Shadow Ball on Lele, though they aren't too much of a bother, mostly just momentum issues W/Pheromosa.
-Choice Scarf shenanigans. I always feel like I have to sacrifice Pheromosa unless I can hard switch to Lele or Mence for an immunity.
-Ice types can also be a bit difficult if both Lele and Pheromosa are down.

Offensively, this team has a lot going for it. Defensively, it may take a few switches and some glaring threats. I like a challenge though. Pheromosa has limited defense. However, bar sucker punch, extreme speed, and non-STAB attacks from a non-attacker, it may be worth keeping her in for a two-attack (PRIORITY ONLY) strike. Lele can handle some sp. Atks, thanks to her decent 140-150ish sp. def. and remarkable typing. And with M-mence, her intimidate and Mega-boost can keep many physical pains away.

Now for Videos :)
JZ6W-WWWW-WWW6-3CF2: My 109 loss. I honestly should have sacrificed my Phero for Lele with a Poison Jab instead of a hard switch but, oh well...

HUTG-WWWW-WWW6-3CFE: Rarely U-turn Psychic opponents to Lele. She'S strong but not that strong. Switch out dragons to Lele while Salamemce when you can. Momentum 4lyfe. Also Lele tank lol

4SWW-WWWW-WWW6-3CGE: Quick Double-Edge is amazing, especially after chip damage. And thank you RNGesus. Phero brought in because of fast Heatran.

WLGG-WWWW-WWW6-3CH7: Go on ahead, steal my life orb. Pheromosa goodness.

A4DG-WWWW-WWW6-3CY8: Megazard shenanigans. Necessary double-switch. Never be afraid to double-switch. More Tapu Lele goodness.

TLLG-WWWW-WWW6-3CJF: Obligatory Red Battle! I've lost this battle before because of NOT LOOKING HIM UP. Switch out of ice weaks when you can.

B95W-WWWW-WWW6-3CK8: Gale wings is nothing in Psychic Terrain.

Tl;dr: Know thy enemy and know thyself. Only then will you win all of your battles.

Also I'd love any criticisms, missing threats, replacement ideas, and other suggestions.
 
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atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
Hi. I've just reached 200 wins and still going in doubles. I'll do a write-up when I lose but for now I wanted to past some videos involving some surprising (to me) switching behaviours on behalf of the opponent.

X8QG-WWWW-WWW6-WKEG

In this one, I used Raichu's Fake Out on Accelgor and attempted to Volt Switch with Tapu Koko on Electrode, but failed due to Protect. On the next turn I went to finish off Accelgor with Raichu, but then Accelgor decided to switch out for Volt Absorb Jolteon, despite the fact that the only attack that it had been hit with previously was Fake Out.

UXAW-WWWW-WWW6-3GXB

This one is similar to the above, right down to having the same trainer. Fake Out on Accelgor followed by Thunderbolt KOing Ribombee. Next turn, Accelgor switches to Volt Absorb Jolteon, only having previously been hit by Fake Out.

YB5G-WWWW-WWW6-3G4K

In this one I had Hawlucha and Landorus out against Golem and Machamp. I double targeted Golem (has Focus Sash) with Low Kick followed by Earth Power. On the turn after Golem fainted, Machamp switched out for Eelektross, despite the fact that I hadn't hit Machamp with a single attack (it had some Flame Orb damage but that's it).

Now, I'm aware that opponent's may switch out Pokemon if they have a back-up that is resistant/immune to the last attack used against the active Pokemon. In these situations, the AI switched when the Pokemon's PARTNER had been hit with the attack (in the first two Volt Absorb Jolteon came in with Volt Tackle/Thunderbolt as last move used on Accelgor's partner; in the last one it was Levitate Eelektross in after Earth Power on Machamp's partner). All switch-ins were based on ability-derived immunities. I haven't played doubles seriously in quite a while, not since the Subway days, but I haven't heard of anything like this happening before and I just wanted to know if this is known normal AI behaviour?
 

turskain

activated its Quick Claw!
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Hi. I've just reached 200 wins and still going in doubles. I'll do a write-up when I lose but for now I wanted to past some videos involving some surprising (to me) switching behaviours on behalf of the opponent.

X8QG-WWWW-WWW6-WKEG

In this one, I used Raichu's Fake Out on Accelgor and attempted to Volt Switch with Tapu Koko on Electrode, but failed due to Protect. On the next turn I went to finish off Accelgor with Raichu, but then Accelgor decided to switch out for Volt Absorb Jolteon, despite the fact that the only attack that it had been hit with previously was Fake Out.

UXAW-WWWW-WWW6-3GXB

This one is similar to the above, right down to having the same trainer. Fake Out on Accelgor followed by Thunderbolt KOing Ribombee. Next turn, Accelgor switches to Volt Absorb Jolteon, only having previously been hit by Fake Out.

YB5G-WWWW-WWW6-3G4K

In this one I had Hawlucha and Landorus out against Golem and Machamp. I double targeted Golem (has Focus Sash) with Low Kick followed by Earth Power. On the turn after Golem fainted, Machamp switched out for Eelektross, despite the fact that I hadn't hit Machamp with a single attack (it had some Flame Orb damage but that's it).

Now, I'm aware that opponent's may switch out Pokemon if they have a back-up that is resistant/immune to the last attack used against the active Pokemon. In these situations, the AI switched when the Pokemon's PARTNER had been hit with the attack (in the first two Volt Absorb Jolteon came in with Volt Tackle/Thunderbolt as last move used on Accelgor's partner; in the last one it was Levitate Eelektross in after Earth Power on Machamp's partner). All switch-ins were based on ability-derived immunities. I haven't played doubles seriously in quite a while, not since the Subway days, but I haven't heard of anything like this happening before and I just wanted to know if this is known normal AI behaviour?
I did some mock battles to test this behaviour on the first battle video.

Test 1: Hitmonlee/Tapu Koko vs Electrode/Accelgor
I did 10 mock battles, going for Thunderbolt on Electrode on turn 1 and turn 2 (two electric hits in the slot) to see if the AI will switch in Volt Absorb Jolteon in either slot. It did not switch a single time in the mock battles I did - if this were the Maison I would expect a Volt Absorb switch, but the AI never switched at all, in either slot.

Test 2: Tapu Koko/Hitmonlee vs Electrode/Accelgor
Switched Tapu Koko to the front of the team, since atsync's video had it in that slot rather than as the second Pokémon. With this setup I immediately started seeing identical behaviour to atsync's description in around half of the mock battles I did, with T1: Fake Out into Accelgor - T-Bolt into Electrode Protect, T2: Accelgor switches out for Jolteon. I also saw the AI switching Jolteon into the Electrode slot, rather than the Accelgor slot, which corresponded with the AI not using Protect on Electrode and taking damage from Thunderbolt instead. It might be that Fake Out/Protect with Accelgor being the only enemy damaged, makes the AI confused as to which enemy was actually targeted since Electrode is still at full HP and Accelgor had taken damage from Fake Out.

I've still not done that many mock battles but this is very curious... it would seem that having your Pokémon at the front of the team (left slot) makes the AI react to your attacks with Volt Absorb prediction switches (sometimes in a different slot from the one you targeted), while the right-side slot doesn't provoke such behaviour. This would match with my experiences playing Hitmonlee/Tapu Koko in Doubles, where I've never had the AI switch its Pokémon out for a Lightning Rod user after using an Electric-type move with Tapu Koko in over 1000 battles.
 
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