Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread

[D_Beibus]

Got to the top 20 on ladder today mostly riding the surprise nuke factor of specs Tangrowth. Here are some relevant calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 354-417 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 339-400 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 143-168 (47.5 - 55.8%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 206-243 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 292-344 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 159-188 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 255-300 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 176+ SpD Breloom: 308-364 (96.2 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 394-465 (111.2 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Does about 80-90% to spdef gliscor -- can OHKO w/ rocks depending on the spread (can't against 252/252+ but most people run some speed). Gotta be careful not to get knocked off or else you might lose 1v1, but Gliscor also can't roost. People might be catching on, but even at high ladder I've seen a lot of people stay in w/ Gliscor to defog / SR and get ohkoed lol.

You're still bulky enough to pivot into Rotom-w infinitely, wall brelooms (although CB force palm might 2hko), be a decent chomp check (only +2 LO outrage can kill you), and you can even keep knock off or sleep powder in the 4th slot to make some guaranteed progress.

 

[Lalaya]

Got to the top 20 on ladder today mostly riding the surprise nuke factor of specs Tangrowth. Really good set -- people switch all sorts of things in expecting a passive mon but instead get blown back by leafstorm. Here are some relevant calcs:

ngl i just wanna add that he's also underrated on sun since he got growth, eq and a move to hit skarm if you want (focus blast)
got it unexpectedly once in ladder and i got BLOWN, mon's a menace even if he isnt the fastest around

 

[Patar136]

Disturb not the harmony of fire ice or lightning
Lest these titans wreak destruction upon the world in which they clash

For today's post, I am going to share the legendary bird: Articuno. When you look at Articuno, it would be very easy to decide to just ignore it. 4x Stealth Rock weakness? Lack of good defensive typing? Loss of pressure? Terrible movepool? What can Articuno do that other's cannot? Well, in truth yes Articuno is not a very good Pokemon and probably shouldn't be used. But CAN it be used? The answer is a surprising yes, but just barely. It just barely usable in OU and the sets below will show why.

Articuno @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- U-turn
- Water Pulse

Articuno @ Bright Powder
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Roost
- Substitute

Articuno has a movepool that is sadly lacking. However, U-Turn allows pivoting, Ice Beam is high power stab and Freeze Dry is an amazing move that finally provides coverage against water types. Certain OU targets like Gastrodon, Swampert, Gyarados, Feraligatr, Ludicolo, Mantine, Kingdra and to a lesser extent Manaphy, Starmie and Empoleon are hit for strong damage with many targets being OHKO'd outright. Articuno deserves mention because it is the fastest and strongest user of Freeze Dry compared to the other mons that can learn this move. The only ice type with a higher special attack stat is Glaceon but the later does not have Articuno's usable base speed of 85. On the scarf set, the last move I chose is a weak albeit usable Water Pulse to hurt Heatran, the second bane of Articuno's existence. The first bane is none other than Scizor who can hurt Articuno for massive damage with Bullet Punch and trying to have one of your teammates use defog against Scizor is dangerous when it can just pivot out or worse set up on you. Speaking of which, Defog support is mandatory to support Articuno as much as possible along with spin support if you can provide it. The second set posted is one that I found another player using that makes use of Articuno's ability: Snow Cloak combined with Brightpowder. While very gimicky to the finest, as you are left outsped by many things and forced to use Roost to recover since you don't have leftovers. However, this will make Heatran and Garchomp want to rip their fake hair out of their heads as Stone Edge and Magma Storm have a very good chance of just never hitting you. You will do nothing to Heatran unless you add Water Pulse but you can at least stall out the PP of Magma Storm...but if it has Flash Cannon. Good luck.

Articuno is hard to use in OU and the only reason you should ever consider using it is if you are building a Hail team in which it can fight to its finest. Or, to be honest, because you like Articuno and want to use it just for the hell of it. I experimented with Articuno under rain where using Hurricane is possible, and water pulse gets a boost with rain but I think Articuno works better on hail then rain. Still, rain is certainly usable for Articuno as it means that fire moves hurt less. With Dragon Spam as prominent as it is, Articuno is certainly usable as a special attacking ice type. With extensive team support, the ice type finally has the means to fight in OU albeit just barely.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Disturb not the harmony of fire ice or lightning
Lest these titans wreak destruction upon the world in which they clash

For today's post, I am going to share the legendary bird: Articuno. When you look at Articuno, it would be very easy to decide to just ignore it. 4x Stealth Rock weakness? Lack of good defensive typing? Loss of pressure? Terrible movepool? What can Articuno do that other's cannot? Well, in truth yes Articuno is not a very good Pokemon and probably shouldn't be used. But CAN it be used? The answer is a surprising yes, but just barely. It just barely usable in OU and the sets below will show why.

Articuno @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- U-turn
- Water Pulse

Articuno @ Bright Powder
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Roost
- Substitute

Articuno has a movepool that is sadly lacking. However, U-Turn allows pivoting, Ice Beam is high power stab and Freeze Dry is an amazing move that finally provides coverage against water types. Certain OU targets like Gastrodon, Swampert, Gyarados, Feraligatr, Ludicolo, Mantine, Kingdra and to a lesser extent Manaphy, Starmie and Empoleon are hit for strong damage with many targets being OHKO'd outright. Articuno deserves mention because it is the fastest and strongest user of Freeze Dry compared to the other mons that can learn this move. The only ice type with a higher special attack stat is Glaceon but the later does not have Articuno's usable base speed of 85. On the scarf set, the last move I chose is a weak albeit usable Water Pulse to hurt Heatran, the second bane of Articuno's existence. The first bane is none other than Scizor who can hurt Articuno for massive damage with Defog. Speaking of which, Defog support is mandatory to support Articuno as much as possible along with spin support if you can provide it. The second set posted is one that I found another player using that makes use of Articuno's ability: Snow Cloak combined with Brightpowder. While very gimicky to the finest, as you are left outsped by many things and forced to use Roost to recover since you don't have leftovers. However, this will make Heatran and Garchomp want to rip their fake hair out of their heads as Stone Edge and Magma Storm have a very good chance of just never hitting you. You will do nothing to Heatran but you can at least stall out the PP of Magma Storm...but if it has Flash Cannon. Good luck.

Articuno is hard to use in OU and the only reason you should ever consider using it is if you are building a Hail team in which it can fight to its finest. I experimented with Articuno under rain where using Hurricane is possible, and water pulse gets a boost with rain but I think Articuno works better on hail then rain. Still, rain is certainly usable for Articuno as it means that fire moves hurt less. With Dragon Spam as prominent as it is, Articuno is certainly usable as a special attacking ice type. With extensive team support, the ice type finally has the means to fight in OU albeit just barely.

This post is well thought out and well written, but I don't think it encapsulates what niche Articuno could theoretically fulfill (in theory - a specs attacker or subtoxic staller; in reality - none whatsoever). It is too weak to forego a power boosting item and too slow to pressure the opponent without a scarf. Snow Cloak is incredibly inconsistent, most notably because Hail is a horrible team archetype in the current metagame. It has a bad matchup against almost literally every other team archetype. Abusers are nearly non-existent, as Slush Rush is removed. This isn't helped by the fact that due to its lack of relevant boosting moves, poor defensive typing, and meager offensive stats, Articuno struggles to make tangible use of the slim chance that it dodges an attack. I think it would fair a bit better on rain actually (though very far from actually viable), but drizzle was banned and I have a hard time seeing manual rain making much of a splash in the tier. Basically, if you want to use Articuno, I'd wait until lower tiers exist. If you want flying offense - use Zapdos. Ice offense - Mamoswine or Weavile. Gimmicky weather evasion - Gliscor (or really for this one, please just don't).

 

[Eeveeto]

Articuno would be a pretty viable Sdef defoguer... if he got Pressure available. Right now, I see more use for Glaceon (130 Special attack + Specs in Hail) than for the legendary bird.

 

[PlusC]

A Defogger with 4x Rock weakness is not viable

 

[Eeveeto]

A Defogger with 4x Rock weakness is not viable

Thats not true. Most common rockers are: Gliscor, Empoleon, Clefable, Garchomp, Hippowdon, Heatran, Azelf, Swampert, Aerodactyl and Nidoking.

Out of those, Pressure Articuno switches safely into Gliscor, Blissey (it doesn,t have Toxic), Empoleon, Clefable (except CM, though Articuno can run Haze), Hippowdon (no one runs SE), Swampert and Garchomp (as long as is the defensive one and without rock moves). Pretty good amount. It can,t be your only Defogger, but in dedicated Stall teams it can have a niche alongside something like Gliscor, Zapdos or Starmie.

But yeah, right now that doesn,t matter, since Articuno needs Pressure to outstall the Rockers.

 

[Patar136]

This post is well thought out and well written, but I don't think it encapsulates what niche Articuno could theoretically fulfill (in theory - a specs attacker or subtoxic staller; in reality - none whatsoever). It is too weak to forego a power boosting item and too slow to pressure the opponent without a scarf. Snow Cloak is incredibly inconsistent, most notably because Hail is a horrible team archetype in the current metagame. It has a bad matchup against almost literally every other team archetype. Abusers are nearly non-existent, as Slush Rush is removed. This isn't helped by the fact that due to its lack of relevant boosting moves, poor defensive typing, and meager offensive stats, Articuno struggles to make tangible use of the slim chance that it dodges an attack. I think it would fair a bit better on rain actually (though very far from actually viable), but drizzle was banned and I have a hard time seeing manual rain making much of a splash in the tier. Basically, if you want to use Articuno, I'd wait until lower tiers exist. If you want flying offense - use Zapdos. Ice offense - Mamoswine or Weavile. Gimmicky weather evasion - Gliscor (or really for this one, please just don't).

Fair points made. The truth is, yes, Articuno is outclassed by other special attackers and if you are going to go out of your way to support something with a severe weakness to stealth rock, you are probably doing it for Masquerain, Charizard, Moltres or even something gimmicky like Butterfree spamming sleep powder. However, I wouldn't say that it has a bad match up against team archetypes necessarily. Hail is probably the worst weather but it can also get great results if built properly. In my experimentation I feel that I got enough wins with Articuno to say that the niche exists: a special attacking ice type with reasonable bulk. While it generally runs into a major threat in team preview, with team support, these threats can be eliminated so that Articuno is much easier to use. The high quality of dragon, ground and water types thanks to Freeze Dry mean that there are certainly targets for Articuno. Plus, the abundance of sash users not named Alakazam do not enjoy losing that sash on the first turn they enter the field: especially Aerodactyl, a common lead trying to set up against Abomasnow.

Hail teams are themselves much harder to get use out of compared to a sand, manual rain and sun team so I concede that point. However, it isn't as bad as I expected it to be which is why I posted since I feel that hail teams deserve closer examination.

 

[AP5Fanboy]

Just wanted to share the team I used to climb up to high ladder, feel free to take a look(https://pokepast.es/6da41f3672a9c3e7 pokepaste)

(Proof of ladder)

In depth team description

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
Pretty standard Slowbro, this is a counter to several physical threats that Skarmory just can't handle, such as Blaziken(before the ban), SD Lucario not running Crunch, and SD Gliscor(Yeah Skarm walls that too but Bro also threatens to KO with Ice Beam). Among these traits, Flamethrower surprises cocky Scizor wanting to Roost, SD, or Defog on my Bro, and isn't threatened at all by spdef Scizor's U-Turn, since it heals off all the damage via Regenerator.

Vileplume @ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Strength Sap
- Toxic
- Sludge Bomb
My Breloom and Rotom counter. Spreading Toxic in a metagame with very limited Toxic distribution is extremely helpful, and Vileplume is no slouch in the longevity department either courtesy of Leech Seed(especially since no grass wants to switch into it) and Strength Sap. Furthermore, it punishes Trick Scarf Rotom with extremely high passive damage with its Black Sludge, and this thing is still decently useful even with the burden of having a Scarf. Also, it can really mess with Volt Turn cores packing spdef Scizor with Effect Spore and Toxic(if they don't have an alternative Toxic switchin). Overall, it's a very good mon that brings its own unique merits to the table.

Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 68 SpA / 52 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
This mon is the one mon keeping this team together against lethal special setup sweepers, such as Nasty Plot Alakazam lacking Psyshock, CM Latios, Tail Glow Manaphy, etc etc. The EVs are a bit all over the place, although from what I've played with they've worked fine. The spatk and spdef EVs let me deal better chip damage and take strong special attacks much easier, respectively. The rest of the EVs are in defense, although since Blissey hates physical attackers anyway you could make a case for moving the EVs to spatk. Overall, a very fun set that surprisingly works wonders against the otherwise destructive special forces in the metagame

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
Ah, Unaware Clefable. One of the few mons holding us together against all the massive dragon threats in the metagame. Also acts as a really nice wincon, as long as it doesn't get chipped down too hard by the dragons it's checking. Pretty standard set through and through.

Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Defog
Skarmory. The first and most iconic of the steel birds. This is my main check to the ever-so-dangerous Weavile, who otherwise completely runs through my team as soon as Clef takes even a little chip. Shed Shell allows me to completely blank Magnezone instead of having to immediately double out or click Whirlwind on the switch, although having none of the recovery Lefties offers can really suck. Other than that, sets spikes and defogs away other hazards. spdef EVs allow me to better tank Latios Draco Meteors in a pinch as well as making surprise Chomp Fire Blasts a roll instead of a full 2HKO, although putting them all in physdef would likely be better for checking Weavile and co.

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 204 SpD / 60 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
Pretty standard spdef Gliscor, EV'd to outrun max speed base 60s like Magnezone and Empoleon. Other than that, Gliscor is my rocker and knocker, not much else to say here.

Weaknesses of the team: Crawdaunt and Alakazam packing Psyshock just completely 6-0 the team without much resistance. Weavile and volt-turn can also be troublesome matchups, although they aren't immediate wins in team preview like Crawdaunt and Zam are. Skarm getting knocked against Mag cores makes dealing with them much harder, though it's still not unwinnable with good play courtesy of Bro, Clef, and Blissey serving as alternative checks to most dragons.

Open to taking any criticism for the team!

 

[CoolMan6001]

though Articuno can run Haze

No transfers (not sure if yet applies) so Articuno can't use this move.

 

[Katy]

Hello guys,

a set I've been thinking about lately, which can be really good against Water-types such as Manaphy and to check them could the following:

Empoleon @ Leftovers / @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Roar​

This Empoleon set aims to set up Stealth Rocks and to check dangerous Attackers such as Manaphy, Latios, Latias, Alakazam, and it also can check Blastoise, Suicune, and Kingdra. Empoleon also can help against such setup sweepers with phazing them out due to Roar, therefore they will lose their boost and have to try and set up again later. Empoelon is also a great Lead Pokemon with Shuca Berry, which can threaten common Stealth Rock users such as Garchomp, Hippowdon, and Nidoqueen. It can also help against Nidoking. With Shuca Berry it's able to tank 1 Ground-type STAB from those Pokemon pretty well. therefore it cam immediately threaten those Stealth Rock setters with either Scald or Ice Beam, where the latter is able to tend through Garchomp pretty well. Empoleon is a great tool in many assets and I think it is worth to try this set out.

some calcs for reference:

Hide

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 114-134 (30.6 - 36%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 101-119 (27.1 - 31.9%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 174-206 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 233-275 (62.6 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 54-64 (14.5 - 17.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 192-228 (51.6 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 100-118 (26.8 - 31.7%) -- 94.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I think this set can come in handy and with Empoleons great defensive typing in Steel / Water it has already a natural way of checking at least Latios, Latias, and Manaphy and Kingdra as well. Empoleons bulk is also very reasonable. Hope you have fun trying this set out.

 

[Eeveeto]

With Shuca Berry I would honestly use an offensive set. With that EV Spread, on a Mon without Recovery (fuck GF for not giving Roost to Empo) it really needs Leftovers in order to stick around longer.

 

[Patar136]

So my sun analysis is still coming, Victreebell is king of grass and Charizard is a powerhouse that either sweeps or gets swept, but in the meantime I wanted to post about something I found in advance.

Shaymin-Sky.

This unreleased Uber has had a reputation of being banned from OU for two generations (DPP and BW). This stemmed from the fact that it was fast and was one of the worst (or best) abusers of Serene Grace and flinching via its STAB in Air Slash. However, from what I can tell, Shaymin-Sky does not have access to Air Slash or any STAB flying move. Not only that, it doesn't get Earth Power or the coverage provided by Hidden Power.

This means that Shaymin-Sky, while powerful, is not nearly as dangerous as it once was due to these nerfs. The only move that could be abused with Serene Grace is Seed Flare, but that is one move and something that can be worked around. And as such, I would like to respectfully propose that it be tested once more in OU. With the above nerfs, I feel that this would be a fast and powerful grass type that would fit into OU nicely but wouldn't be overwhelming due to its frailty, poor coverage options and lack of viable sets.

I could imagine Shaymin-Sky fitting well onto offensive teams and even sun teams as a support mon but as is, it would be pretty terrible if confined to Ubers. The power level of this legendary has decreased considerably to the point that it would not be nearly as powerful as it was back in the DPP or even the BW days.

Open to feedback, just wanted to throw this out there.

 

[harmony96366]

i have weird takes, but i think this meta is shaping out to be something where a lot of things are viable.
for example, frosty rotom.

Rotom-Frost @ Choice Scarf/Life Orb (modest if scarf, timid if LO)
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt/Thunder
- Shadow Ball/Twave
- Volt Switch

you basically spam attacks till a check comes in, or just volt the hell out of everything. chomp, glis, and tangrowth want nothing to do with blizzard, and alakazam and gengar hate shadow ball. if you are in a bad matchup, just use twave as a parting gift for the enemy infernape. volt is obviously a good pivot because grounds die to predicted Blizzard. the one thing that can be an issue is blizzard's 8 PP and accuracy problem, but its a good reward when you pull it off. mow rotom is more of a less risk, less reward option.

 

[harmony96366]

So my sun analysis is still coming, Victreebell is king of grass and Charizard is a powerhouse that either sweeps or gets swept, but in the meantime I wanted to post about something I found in advance.

Shaymin-Sky.

This unreleased Uber has had a reputation of being banned from OU for two generations (DPP and BW). This stemmed from the fact that it was fast and was one of the worst (or best) abusers of Serene Grace and flinching via its STAB in Air Slash. However, from what I can tell, Shaymin-Sky does not have access to Air Slash or any STAB flying move. Not only that, it doesn't get Earth Power or the coverage provided by Hidden Power.

This means that Shaymin-Sky, while powerful, is not nearly as dangerous as it once was due to these nerfs. The only move that could be abused with Serene Grace is Seed Flare, but that is one move and something that can be worked around. And as such, I would like to respectfully propose that it be tested once more in OU. With the above nerfs, I feel that this would be a fast and powerful grass type that would fit into OU nicely but wouldn't be overwhelming due to its frailty, poor coverage options and lack of viable sets.

I could imagine Shaymin-Sky fitting well onto offensive teams and even sun teams as a support mon but as is, it would be pretty terrible if confined to Ubers. The power level of this legendary has decreased considerably to the point that it would not be nearly as powerful as it was back in the DPP or even the BW days.

Open to feedback, just wanted to throw this out there.

yes please

 

[spookysocialist]

So my sun analysis is still coming, Victreebell is king of grass and Charizard is a powerhouse that either sweeps or gets swept, but in the meantime I wanted to post about something I found in advance.

Shaymin-Sky.

This unreleased Uber has had a reputation of being banned from OU for two generations (DPP and BW). This stemmed from the fact that it was fast and was one of the worst (or best) abusers of Serene Grace and flinching via its STAB in Air Slash. However, from what I can tell, Shaymin-Sky does not have access to Air Slash or any STAB flying move. Not only that, it doesn't get Earth Power or the coverage provided by Hidden Power.

This means that Shaymin-Sky, while powerful, is not nearly as dangerous as it once was due to these nerfs. The only move that could be abused with Serene Grace is Seed Flare, but that is one move and something that can be worked around. And as such, I would like to respectfully propose that it be tested once more in OU. With the above nerfs, I feel that this would be a fast and powerful grass type that would fit into OU nicely but wouldn't be overwhelming due to its frailty, poor coverage options and lack of viable sets.

I could imagine Shaymin-Sky fitting well onto offensive teams and even sun teams as a support mon but as is, it would be pretty terrible if confined to Ubers. The power level of this legendary has decreased considerably to the point that it would not be nearly as powerful as it was back in the DPP or even the BW days.

Open to feedback, just wanted to throw this out there.

Shaymin is currently unreleased with no set release date, likely just releasing with HOME. Furthermore HOME compatibility will give it back air slash.

 

[CoolMan6001]

Shaymin-Sky does not have access to Air Slash or any STAB flying move.

In addition to what everyone else said, Even if skymin was released, it has natural Air Slash anyway.

 

[Patar136]

If it indeed does get Air Slash I withdraw my point. While the loss of Earth Power hurts, I admit that this wouldn't be enough to drop to OU.

What a weird limbo it will be in though, like Darkrai. Where it is too weak for Ubers but too strong for OU.

 

[Lalaya]

I mean, while some of them can Pressure them out, none of them Ubers are too willing to join the field getting hit from a Seed Flare into an Air Slash, honestly, or just getting SubSeeded to death
Dunno why we're having this conversation but as small as a niche Skymin has, he's still a very solid presence and it never fails to do his job right tbh
Not in a million years will he drop from Ubers imo

 

[Le Don]

Hello, I'm here to talk about the stupidity named ALAKAZAM.

-BooskAthanor- (Alakazam) @ Life Orb

Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes ( Glowing Zam Supremacy aka G.Z.S. )
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Encore

Well, NP Zam has a little problem : How do get rid of Unaware Clef ( which is everywhere atm ) / Quag when you're running Psyshock ?
Answer is : run Psychic instead of Psyshock ! ... ok why not :

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%)
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 278-329 (70.5 - 83.5%)

But now how do you beat CM Bliss or just Bliss ?
Answer is : Run Psyshock instead of Psychic ! ... ok why not ... but ... WAIT !! Back to square one !

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Jokes aside.

I've seen in a lot of Fat / Stall teams the core Bliss + Unaware to manage setups. I've search a solution to beat this core and I have the solution : run Encore over Shadow Ball and run Psyshock over Psychic on LO Alakazam.

With Encore you force Clef / Quag to be locked on smthing like wish / CM or idk and Clef / Quag is forced out. If opp has a Bliss, he can't send it because of Psyshock. And now opp is in trouble.

Encore can also have others utilities ( Encore is not only to stallbreak if y see wim ).

This set is insane vs Fat / Stall but less efficient against offense because as y see losing Shadow Ball means that you can't hit things like Latios.
But if you pair it with smthing that lure Latios, Starmie etc Zam is going to be insane ( for exemple Night Slash Blaziken but the chicken is banned now so F ).


https://pokepast.es/bd281b2990a95052

I made this team before the Blaziken ban. The idea was : using broken mons in HO while not losing to Ditto / Unaware Clef /Quag.

Screens helps against RKillers and ofc DITTO ( I love Memento Latios ).

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam through Reflect: 151-178 (60.1 - 70.9%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 419-493 (121.8 - 143.3%)

Skill Swap Mana + Encore Zam to destroy Unawares. Rest + Chesto on Mana means that ydc about Toxic / Para / Burn. LO on Zam because of the extra power it gives.

Blaziken because it's broken. Leftos > LO because I hate recoil of Flare Blitz + LO and Night Slash for Slowbro / Latios / Starmie ...

+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 214-252 (54.3 - 63.9%) 2HKO and remember that Night Slash has a higher chance to crit.

And Garchomp because of it's high speed, high attack and great movepool and if you get rid of Gliscor / Clef / Quag, Garchomp is going to be so good.


Conclusion : Psyshock is stupid as hell and Zam is banworthy imo. ( But Mana is the priority )

Thx for reading.

---- G.Z.S. ----​

 

[Eeveeto]

Not to defend or to call Alakazam broken, but Spiritomb is a full counter to the set above and a good check to any set that doesn't have Dazzling Gleam ( which honestly would just be used for Spiritomb, Sableye and Honchkrow).

I have used Spiritomb in the suspect and with WoW + Foul Play + Restalk he is a good annoyer for several physical attackers while at the same time being a spinblocker for defensive Starmie ( offensive one will need Spiritomb to be Sdef). Being one of the few Pressure Mons ( most legends don't have it, so it's really Tomb, Dusknoir, Weavile, Vespiquen and Wailord) also helps it in this meta. Sets different to the one I used can be explored. He easily tanks + 4 EQ from Gliscor too and OHKOs or comes close. Some people are using Medicham and Spiritomb (and Sableye) are bad news for them. Speaking of Sableye, Spiritomb doesn't mind Knock too much and is unaffected by WoW or Taunt due to being a Dark type. Other Dark types like Tyranitar, Umbreon, Crawdaunt, Weavile and Honchkrow don't like getting Knocked but with Restalk, Spiritomb can afford it.

This post was just a small Spiritomb propaganda while I am waiting a customer that is arriving late to a meeting, have a nice day.

 

[JTD783]

i have weird takes, but i think this meta is shaping out to be something where a lot of things are viable.
for example, frosty rotom.

Rotom-Frost @ Choice Scarf/Life Orb (modest if scarf, timid if LO)
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt/Thunder
- Shadow Ball/Twave
- Volt Switch

you basically spam attacks till a check comes in, or just volt the hell out of everything. chomp, glis, and tangrowth want nothing to do with blizzard, and alakazam and gengar hate shadow ball. if you are in a bad matchup, just use twave as a parting gift for the enemy infernape. volt is obviously a good pivot because grounds die to predicted Blizzard. the one thing that can be an issue is blizzard's 8 PP and accuracy problem, but its a good reward when you pull it off. mow rotom is more of a less risk, less reward option.

I like the idea of Rotom-Frost because BoltBeam coverage, which is notoriously hard to switch into, is basically gone since there’s no more Hidden Power. The only good answers are Blissey, spdef Clefable, and spdef Heatran, and the former two hate getting a scarf from Trick. Heatran doesn’t like to lose its lefties either. I think Scarf or Specs are the best sets and should always use Trick since it’s a broken move. There’s also Lanturn but we don’t talk about Lanturn.

Rotom-Frost obviously suffers from the absence of Heavy-Duty Boots but the presence of viable Defog and Rapid Spin users can mitigate this. Scizor is a particularly good partner as it has access to Defog and forms a Volt-Turn core, as well as threatening Clefable with Bullet Punch.

 

[Bluepanther512]

My Thoughts:
Firstly, until the inevitable Latios Ban, Abomasnow may be an OK Check
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Abomasnow: 148-175 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This puts it just within a 1/4th berry range, healing it anywhere up to 55% HP, then the -2 does
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Abomasnow: 75-88 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Min Damage on First
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Abomasnow: 75-88 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Max Damage on First
This after berry recovery is BARELY not enough to take out even if you get a damage roll of 100% both times. With Snow Warning, you have a 2 hit KO
0 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 80-96 (51.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
Set:
Obamasnow (Abomasnow) @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Earth Power
- Leech Seed
Another option (OHKO)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Abomasnow: 280-330 (86.9 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO- I hate it, but either you need to gamble on YOUR KO or your OPPONENT's KO, and the chances with a neutral nature the odds are worse for your KO, this is a necessary sacrifice
252+ SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 320-380 (106.3 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO- This is what is given for a chance to die
Obamasnow (Abomasnow) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Earth Power
- Shadow Ball
Just need a Defog/U-Turner...Oh there are, take your pick, there are quite a few
https://pokepast.es/55c9eea10f33c89e all of the sets

 

[Pabloaram]

My Thoughts:
Firstly, until the inevitable Latios Ban, Abomasnow may be an OK Check
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Abomasnow: 148-175 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This puts it just within a 1/4th berry range, healing it anywhere up to 55% HP, then the -2 does
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Abomasnow: 75-88 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Min Damage on First
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Abomasnow: 75-88 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Max Damage on First
This after berry recovery is BARELY not enough to take out even if you get a damage roll of 100% both times. With Snow Warning you have a 2 hit KO
0 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 80-96 (51.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
Set:
Obamasnow (Abomasnow) @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Earth Power
- Leech Seed

In a wonderfull world when you can have a 1v1 against Latios, and isnt any form of hazzard in your side, maybe Aboma could work as a check. But the problem is you switch once and only once, and Abomasnow is bad agaisnt the rest of the metagame.
Another things, put the defence EV on Special Attack bc Aboma isnt taking physical attack if you need him to be a 100% to "check" latios. Better do damage to whatever is switching after Latios drops a draco on you...

 

[Bluepanther512]

In a wonderfull world when you can have a 1v1 against Latios, and isnt any form of hazzard in your side, maybe Aboma could work as a check. But the problem is you switch once and only once, and Abomasnow is bad agaisnt the rest of the metagame.
Another things, put the defence EV on Special Attack bc Aboma isnt taking physical attack if you need him to be a 100% to "check" latios. Better do damage to whatever is switching after Latios drops a draco on you...

I needed to make sure the berry activates to survive the second hit.