tbh I would just use aura sphere + expert belt (focus blast hits nothing but dialga, which dies to aura anyways)
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Metagame BDSP Ubers
- Thread starter Fc
- Start date
tbh I would just use aura sphere + expert belt (focus blast hits nothing but dialga, which dies to aura anyways)
BDSP Ubers isn't really popular as I expected it to be. After checking it out for a while I came to following conclusion:
1.) The lack of dragon resists makes the meta change towards a hyper offense approach. Stall and balance teams are really hard to fit in due to the lack of Pokémon that can take a hit. Natural bulk from Pokémon like Ho-Oh and Lugia are prime examples of good walls that just get crippled by SR without much counterplay. Sticky Web teams seem to be the most reliable choice at the moment.
2.) Moody... I don't know why it hasn't been quickbanned yet. It still does the same thing it did in prior gens.
3.) Toxic Spikes seem really interesting. The only useful Pokémon I found so far is Forretress though.
4.) Due to the lack of available moves there is little room for diversity which makes everything really stale and boring.
In terms of enjoyment I will give this one a 3/10...
1.) The lack of dragon resists makes the meta change towards a hyper offense approach. Stall and balance teams are really hard to fit in due to the lack of Pokémon that can take a hit. Natural bulk from Pokémon like Ho-Oh and Lugia are prime examples of good walls that just get crippled by SR without much counterplay. Sticky Web teams seem to be the most reliable choice at the moment.
2.) Moody... I don't know why it hasn't been quickbanned yet. It still does the same thing it did in prior gens.
3.) Toxic Spikes seem really interesting. The only useful Pokémon I found so far is Forretress though.
4.) Due to the lack of available moves there is little room for diversity which makes everything really stale and boring.
In terms of enjoyment I will give this one a 3/10...
> D
Hi there, im new here and was told to post to this forum. I'm playing BDSP and joined a discord and wanted to challenge myself by building a ghost/ice gym team of 6 pokemon. Any suggests are welcome, especially for who my tank could be! This is what I've got so far:
1- Gengar @ Quick Claw
AB: Cursed Body
Timid Nature
-Sludge Bomb
-Hex
-Thunderbolt
-Focus Blast
2- Froslass @ Focus Slash (my lead)
AB; Snow Cloak
Timid Nature
-Spikes
-Icy Wind
-Shadow Ball
-Destiny Bond
3- Dusknoir @ Leftover_s
AB: Pressure
Impish Nature
-Will-O-Wisp
-Pain Splint
-Earthqauke
-Ice Punch
Thanks for your help!
1- Gengar @ Quick Claw
AB: Cursed Body
Timid Nature
-Sludge Bomb
-Hex
-Thunderbolt
-Focus Blast
2- Froslass @ Focus Slash (my lead)
AB; Snow Cloak
Timid Nature
-Spikes
-Icy Wind
-Shadow Ball
-Destiny Bond
3- Dusknoir @ Leftover_s
AB: Pressure
Impish Nature
-Will-O-Wisp
-Pain Splint
-Earthqauke
-Ice Punch
Thanks for your help!
This stuff outside of maybe Lead Froslass wouldn't work due to the nature of the format, BDSP Ubers that is. You can check the previous posts to see what kind of stuff is actually good and usable in this specific format. These forums are primarily for formats on the showdown server. For the in-game teams you'll probably want to try this thread. Welcome to Smogon though.
This question is probably better suited to the BDSP Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread. However, I'll address it here for the sake of simplicity.
The first consideration is the tier in which the team will be used, if you choose to battle people with it. Let's assume it's Ubers and there's basically no restrictions. I could consider Anything Goes but that's a little too janky for the sake of recommendations.
Ghost types: Giratina (altered and origin), Gengar, Mismagius, Banette, Drifblim, Dusknoir, Froslass, Rotom, Sableye, Shedinja, Spiritomb
Ice types: Articuno, Mamoswine, Weavile, Cloyster, Abomasnow, Delibird, Dewgong, Froslass, Glaceon, Glalie, Jynx, Lapras, Regice, Rotom-Frost, Walrein
So there are a few options here. But first off, Giratina is obligatory. Best Ghost in the game. Unless you have some aversion to using legendaries, it should be here because it's busted. Every team needs a Stealth Rock user, and Mamoswine is the only mon in either list that gets it. Clearing entry hazards is important too, especially when using multiple Ice types and since Heavy-Duty Boots aren't in BDSP. Cloyster gets Rapid Spin and Giratina gets Defog; either is fine.
Due to the restricted pokedex, your team will be unable to address all threats. At this point you'll have to decide whether you want to use your favorites or whether to carefully choose the remaining members to minimize bad matchups. Some things are unavoidable; you'll never have a safe switch in for Tyranitar or Ho-oh and stuff like that. Gengar is valuable because it can outrun dark types and defeat them with Focus Blast. Lapras might be able to beat Heatran 1v1?
I recommend you browse the Monotype subforum since that will give you a better understanding of this style of teambuilding. Also, the strategy pokedex will have sample sets for all of the listed mons if you're looking for ideas.
Ghost types: Giratina (altered and origin), Gengar, Mismagius, Banette, Drifblim, Dusknoir, Froslass, Rotom, Sableye, Shedinja, Spiritomb
Ice types: Articuno, Mamoswine, Weavile, Cloyster, Abomasnow, Delibird, Dewgong, Froslass, Glaceon, Glalie, Jynx, Lapras, Regice, Rotom-Frost, Walrein
So there are a few options here. But first off, Giratina is obligatory. Best Ghost in the game. Unless you have some aversion to using legendaries, it should be here because it's busted. Every team needs a Stealth Rock user, and Mamoswine is the only mon in either list that gets it. Clearing entry hazards is important too, especially when using multiple Ice types and since Heavy-Duty Boots aren't in BDSP. Cloyster gets Rapid Spin and Giratina gets Defog; either is fine.
Due to the restricted pokedex, your team will be unable to address all threats. At this point you'll have to decide whether you want to use your favorites or whether to carefully choose the remaining members to minimize bad matchups. Some things are unavoidable; you'll never have a safe switch in for Tyranitar or Ho-oh and stuff like that. Gengar is valuable because it can outrun dark types and defeat them with Focus Blast. Lapras might be able to beat Heatran 1v1?
I recommend you browse the Monotype subforum since that will give you a better understanding of this style of teambuilding. Also, the strategy pokedex will have sample sets for all of the listed mons if you're looking for ideas.
edit: You could try asking around in the smogon discord too I guess. And yeah it can get annoying to be referred to a bunch of different threads. I sympathize.
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So, Arceus should now be legal in this metagame. Is this meta just totally dead, or has anyone experimented with how it changes things? Seems to me that introducing both a decent dragon resist and a very solid defensive mon overall might go some way to fixing the problems Lacus Clyne laid out.
Arceus has been freed! This is a massive change to the tier, with so many types being viable and Arceus providing insane role compression that can support a lot of styles to be even better. I've been laddering a bit, cycling through these teams so I could try and use multiple types but I still gotta figure some of them out. I'm just gonna write up a quick thing on some of these and minor things I've noticed.
https://pokepast.es/a484261be1bddf80- Ekilller HO
https://pokepast.es/879280be2db968c6 - Bronzong Fightceus Rain
https://pokepast.es/975b1164025f9ab3 - CB Blaziken Sun
https://pokepast.es/17293433957725fc - CM Steelceus Rain
Old reliable ekiller, never fails to be good in a metagame. It does struggle a bit vs stall having Giratina because it's kinda shut down a lot of the time but it can still apply pressure with doubles and hazards. SD is a powerful wincon and it's probably one of the better forms, to be expected out of it especially with a limited dex.
Fightceus is cool because it's able to soft check quite a few Pokemon like Ekiller, Darkceus, Dialga, and Grounds like Groudon / Gliscor with Ice Beam like other forms such as Ground and Water normally can. Lack of Toxic is a little annoying because it can't put things like Mewtwo on a timer on the switch so it's super abusable by that, but it's still decent at the hazard game and fighting moves are hard to switch into with Ice Beam. Ho-Oh also has a terrible movepool so that can't even pressure too hard without Brave Bird + Toxic.
CM Darkceus is solid, no Refresh but the lack of Toxic distribution means Ice Beam is good enough to run. This thing can literally solo non CM Fightceus it's just really good at what it does. Will probably force almost all Mewtwo to have Focus Blast so it's not a safe check to that but it's just good, pressures quite a few common Pokemon like Giratina, Mewtwo in the 1v1, Rayquaza etc and is not at the very top but just viable like Darkceus usually is. Support is also decent, Defog is great.
No Toxic so CM is a demon against some teams, because ghost resists include non-Toxic Blissey, Ekiller, and Darkceus. The latter 2 have to risk just dropping to Focus for some chip and Blissey doesn't even have Confide to stall. Really solid, probably one of the best easily for its ability to 1v1 a ton of mons.
I love Arceus Steel, feel like it's a really good wincon that is probably gonna be more unexplored but is so deadly still. Really hard to kill and Steel is tough to switch into when boosted, only thing Dialga, the best steel resist, can do is phaze. Thunder can threaten things in rain and it's just solid in general as a normal resist and sweeper.
These 3 can probably be CM sweepers on niche teams, but aren't as good as the above just looking at it. bolt beam from Ice and Electric are always good, and Rock is just strong coverage especially with Arceus being able to tech things like Thunder for Kyogre or Earth Power for Dialga. Haven't tried them but they're probably viable.
Groundceus is probably decent, checks ray and don with bulk and can Defog, appreciates Ho-Oh not being able to Toxic. SD and CM also probably work, with good coverage and an uncertainty on what set it is. Kyogre is super good in this tier so it's an annoyance but it's able to be chipped down.
Fairy coverage is nice with things like Fire Blast for Skarmory, could see CM being powerful without Ho-Oh to put it on a timer and support wouldn't be bad either. Good against Darkceus and Fightceus too, so it's probably gonna be solid, not the very top but good.
Probably one of the last viable ones, it's waterceus it's a fat wall that resists not too many good coverage moves but can still check don / ray and soft check a lot of other things like choice locked water move Kyogre, and the fires.
(all the others) - Honestly can't see most of these being used too much, maybe support grass support poison and some random CM forms like Flying but they don't seem worth compared to the others. Psychic is useless with Mewtwo being as good as it is, and bugceus is probably the second worst behind it.
The tier seems far more interesting with Arceus around, I thought it was bad before but Arceus fixes so many things. Defogging being an issue before because it was stuck on things like no recovery Gira-O or bad Ho-Oh is fixed, having wincons and role compression is so much easier with arc covering both, and there's more viable ways to put on more niche Pokemon because those roles can be filled so you don't need to just bring 6 of the top 8 mons or whatever. A VR should be coming somewhat soon, with the slate being started in a week or 2 depending on how the council has adjusted to the metagame. Sample team submissions would also be appreciated in the coming weeks as we wanna get the resources sorted.
https://pokepast.es/a484261be1bddf80- Ekilller HO
https://pokepast.es/879280be2db968c6 - Bronzong Fightceus Rain
https://pokepast.es/975b1164025f9ab3 - CB Blaziken Sun
https://pokepast.es/17293433957725fc - CM Steelceus Rain
Old reliable ekiller, never fails to be good in a metagame. It does struggle a bit vs stall having Giratina because it's kinda shut down a lot of the time but it can still apply pressure with doubles and hazards. SD is a powerful wincon and it's probably one of the better forms, to be expected out of it especially with a limited dex. Fightceus is cool because it's able to soft check quite a few Pokemon like Ekiller, Darkceus, Dialga, and Grounds like Groudon / Gliscor with Ice Beam like other forms such as Ground and Water normally can. Lack of Toxic is a little annoying because it can't put things like Mewtwo on a timer on the switch so it's super abusable by that, but it's still decent at the hazard game and fighting moves are hard to switch into with Ice Beam. Ho-Oh also has a terrible movepool so that can't even pressure too hard without Brave Bird + Toxic. CM Darkceus is solid, no Refresh but the lack of Toxic distribution means Ice Beam is good enough to run. This thing can literally solo non CM Fightceus it's just really good at what it does. Will probably force almost all Mewtwo to have Focus Blast so it's not a safe check to that but it's just good, pressures quite a few common Pokemon like Giratina, Mewtwo in the 1v1, Rayquaza etc and is not at the very top but just viable like Darkceus usually is. Support is also decent, Defog is great. No Toxic so CM is a demon against some teams, because ghost resists include non-Toxic Blissey, Ekiller, and Darkceus. The latter 2 have to risk just dropping to Focus for some chip and Blissey doesn't even have Confide to stall. Really solid, probably one of the best easily for its ability to 1v1 a ton of mons. I love Arceus Steel, feel like it's a really good wincon that is probably gonna be more unexplored but is so deadly still. Really hard to kill and Steel is tough to switch into when boosted, only thing Dialga, the best steel resist, can do is phaze. Thunder can threaten things in rain and it's just solid in general as a normal resist and sweeper. These 3 can probably be CM sweepers on niche teams, but aren't as good as the above just looking at it. bolt beam from Ice and Electric are always good, and Rock is just strong coverage especially with Arceus being able to tech things like Thunder for Kyogre or Earth Power for Dialga. Haven't tried them but they're probably viable. Groundceus is probably decent, checks ray and don with bulk and can Defog, appreciates Ho-Oh not being able to Toxic. SD and CM also probably work, with good coverage and an uncertainty on what set it is. Kyogre is super good in this tier so it's an annoyance but it's able to be chipped down. Fairy coverage is nice with things like Fire Blast for Skarmory, could see CM being powerful without Ho-Oh to put it on a timer and support wouldn't be bad either. Good against Darkceus and Fightceus too, so it's probably gonna be solid, not the very top but good. Probably one of the last viable ones, it's waterceus it's a fat wall that resists not too many good coverage moves but can still check don / ray and soft check a lot of other things like choice locked water move Kyogre, and the fires. (all the others) - Honestly can't see most of these being used too much, maybe support grass support poison and some random CM forms like Flying but they don't seem worth compared to the others. Psychic is useless with Mewtwo being as good as it is, and bugceus is probably the second worst behind it.The tier seems far more interesting with Arceus around, I thought it was bad before but Arceus fixes so many things. Defogging being an issue before because it was stuck on things like no recovery Gira-O or bad Ho-Oh is fixed, having wincons and role compression is so much easier with arc covering both, and there's more viable ways to put on more niche Pokemon because those roles can be filled so you don't need to just bring 6 of the top 8 mons or whatever. A VR should be coming somewhat soon, with the slate being started in a week or 2 depending on how the council has adjusted to the metagame. Sample team submissions would also be appreciated in the coming weeks as we wanna get the resources sorted.
some thoughts:
CM Two still wins games it really shouldn't be winning. So does NP Two to a lesser extent.
Trapping is really good. Wobb was already pretty annoying before but now with lots of arceus forms that it can partner up with its one of the better mons in the meta. Duggy is also ok
Lugia seems to have completely fallen off from the monster it was pre ceus now that most arceus forms beat it on a cm war
Scizor was a mon I thought was really underrated previously but seems to have fallen off now that we have actual defog options. Still probably has a niche since it answers non fire move mewtwo really well
Please ban moody now that ppl actually play this tier
CM Two still wins games it really shouldn't be winning. So does NP Two to a lesser extent.
Trapping is really good. Wobb was already pretty annoying before but now with lots of arceus forms that it can partner up with its one of the better mons in the meta. Duggy is also ok
Lugia seems to have completely fallen off from the monster it was pre ceus now that most arceus forms beat it on a cm war
Scizor was a mon I thought was really underrated previously but seems to have fallen off now that we have actual defog options. Still probably has a niche since it answers non fire move mewtwo really well
Please ban moody now that ppl actually play this tier
Been thinking about using e killer ghostceus more. The mon looks really nice and given the rise of e killer normal arceus being a hugeee threat, ur able to switch in and even reverse sweep. Coverage is p nice too, having ghost stab to kill mons like giratina, and just e speed doing a billion. Haven't playtested a lotttt but it seems really nice on paper.
I don't have much to say, but if you can take out their blissey...all I'm saying is https://pokepast.es/72f39aa5d6f90247 (Palkia might be better here but the more the merrier huh?
Most ekillers run shadow claw.
im aware, just saying it could revenge kill e killers (if chipped) and potentially stop sweeps cuz of the normal immune. Cud also be ev’d to live a non-life orb shadow claw (i dont know if it cud be ev’d to live but worth a shot). Also cant be revenged by other e killers after chipped and sweep. Just an idea dk if it’d work, does fine in usum ubers/ag but theres z and all that.
Could try maybe either
Darkrai @ Life Orb/Lum/
252 sp atk/4 spd/252+ speed
Timid nature
-Hypnosis
-Nasty Plot
-Dark Pulse
-Sludge Bomb/Thunderbolt/Thunder/Focus Blast/Ice Beam
Dark void is gutted lmao Hypnosis is also not a suitable replace but if you EVER get that 60% it could possible go crazy, though getting outsped by very popular Mewtwo and shafted by priority such as Rayquaza/Arceus E-Speed and Choice Scarfers sucks too.
Wide Lens is also humor but not even I am laughing
OR possible go all out with
Darkrai @ Choice Specs/
252sp atk/4 spd/ 252+speed
Timid Nature
-Dark Pulse
-Focus Blast
-Ice Beam
-Thunder/Sludge Bomb
Go big or go home but you still usually taking the bus home cause priority and all that jazz. Still if you desire it can work, but man this mon really dropped off a cliff going from gen 4 to ¨gen 4 BDSP¨
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Metagame thoughts:
1) Ladder is active, I can find games pretty fast. However, as expected, low ladder isn't very great. Typical low ladder Pokémon include Blaziken, Gengar, Shaymin-S, and Lugia.
2) The metagame is, overall, fast paced. There is not many pivots (about this: Teleport distribution sucks rn), so Pokemon needs often to tank hits.
3) However, more defensive Pokemon are viable, such as Giratina, Skarmory, Lugia, support Arceus, and Clefable. Does stall is viable in this metagame? TBD.
4) Every team structure should be able to check EKiller Arceus and CM FairyCeus -- they're way too dangerous.
5) This tier is damn fast; 90 base Speed such as Groudon, Kyogre, Giratina-O, etc, are definitely slow. Special mention to LO Palkia for being so slow for a offensive mon here.
I'm gonna use this question to talk more about Darkrai. Here is the set I'd recommend:
About Hypnosis: I'd say it is playable (and frustrating to play against), but ehh the accuracy make it very inconsistent. Staying against slower Pokémon such as Palkia/Groudon/Kyogre is a massive risk since 1) you can miss and get destroyed by their STAB 2) Or worse, for Palkia / Kyogre you can also get directly obliterated by Choice Scarf sets. Also, Groudon can also hold a Lum Berry.
I'd just would go for a NP/Dark Pulse/Sludge Bomb/Thunder set, with Life Orb. However, I also think that you need to consider that well Darkrai in frail by Ubers standard. Extreme Speed users tend to revenge kill it, and I can't say I fond many opportunity to setup NP with Darkrai in my game. Finally, damage output is not THAT amazing. Don't get me wrong, Darkrai is a for sure viable Pokémon, and a good setup wallbreaker. It just has flaws. I don't think there is VR for Arceus-metagame yet, but I'd probably rank this, like B+ ? A- ? Something over it.
Anyhow, this metagame is fun, and have a nice day, you too.
;')
1) Ladder is active, I can find games pretty fast. However, as expected, low ladder isn't very great. Typical low ladder Pokémon include Blaziken, Gengar, Shaymin-S, and Lugia.
2) The metagame is, overall, fast paced. There is not many pivots (about this: Teleport distribution sucks rn), so Pokemon needs often to tank hits.
3) However, more defensive Pokemon are viable, such as Giratina, Skarmory, Lugia, support Arceus, and Clefable. Does stall is viable in this metagame? TBD.
4) Every team structure should be able to check EKiller Arceus and CM FairyCeus -- they're way too dangerous.
5) This tier is damn fast; 90 base Speed such as Groudon, Kyogre, Giratina-O, etc, are definitely slow. Special mention to LO Palkia for being so slow for a offensive mon here.
I'm gonna use this question to talk more about Darkrai. Here is the set I'd recommend:
Code:
Darkrai @ Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Thunder
- Sludge BombAbout Hypnosis: I'd say it is playable (and frustrating to play against), but ehh the accuracy make it very inconsistent. Staying against slower Pokémon such as Palkia/Groudon/Kyogre is a massive risk since 1) you can miss and get destroyed by their STAB 2) Or worse, for Palkia / Kyogre you can also get directly obliterated by Choice Scarf sets. Also, Groudon can also hold a Lum Berry.
I'd just would go for a NP/Dark Pulse/Sludge Bomb/Thunder set, with Life Orb. However, I also think that you need to consider that well Darkrai in frail by Ubers standard. Extreme Speed users tend to revenge kill it, and I can't say I fond many opportunity to setup NP with Darkrai in my game. Finally, damage output is not THAT amazing. Don't get me wrong, Darkrai is a for sure viable Pokémon, and a good setup wallbreaker. It just has flaws. I don't think there is VR for Arceus-metagame yet, but I'd probably rank this, like B+ ? A- ? Something over it.
Anyhow, this metagame is fun, and have a nice day, you too.
;')
Fightceus with Dark Pulse is actually legitament with its Calm Mind set to beat back psychics
hey! been liking this tier a lot recently (holy shit building improved so much with arceus around) and wanted to make a personal vr. if theres a mon that you think should be in here but isnt, its probably because i either forgot it or just didnt face it enough. enjoy!
S:
Arceus (dont think i have to explain this one. a team weak to ekiller is a bad team, simple as that)
S-:
Mewtwo (mewtwo not being S- isnt rlly bc i think its gotten worse but moreso because ekiller deserves its own tier. use cm taunt more that set is busted esp on tspikes)
Palkia (i slap this on like 99% of my offenses bc kyogre is extremely hard to answer otherwise and its also very scary vs non blissey teams regardless. lum is prob my favorite item on it, helps with ogre thunder paras, smeargle spore and tspikes)
A+:
Arceus-Fairy (really nice answer to palkia/gira-o on offense, also not bad vs ray. its offensive profile isn't as good imo but it can be a nice wincon with enough boosts)
Arceus-Ghost (there are very little ghost resists and most of them dont do much vs this mon, so its very scary. can also rkill a lot of stuff like ray or ekiller once they get low enough. i also enjoy support as it has the unique quality of living all of np two's moves and ohkoing with judgment)
Dialga (really reliable rocker that improves ur ogre and palkia mus a bit. offensive dialga is underrated as fuck, being a dragon that does not care abt clef in the slightest is really good)
Forretress (prob overrating this mon LOL but its def very good. tspikes are incredible into most of the meta and this also compresses spin and a pivot move (those are super rare in ubers) all while being a steel. also has overcoat meaning you deny anything smeargle may want to do vs you)
Giratina-O (now that steel doesnt resist ghost this mon is very hard to wall outside of some arceus forms. sneak is very good at finishing off weakened threats, esp m2. while i usually dont like defog on this due to how many other options it has, it can be worth it on some teams)
Kyogre (water spout goes vrrrrrrr, thats about it tbh. great mon)
A:
Arceus-Dark (notably the one thing that doesn't really mind cm taunt two (when tspikes arent up, anyways), also good answer to gira-o and ghostceus. one of the more dangerous cm ceus asw, nothing bar fightceus particularly enjoys facing it)
Clefable (after the 999th game of getting haha espeeded, i decided to give clef outside of stall a try and it ended up being way better than i imagined. not only does it check a lot of arceus forms pretty reliably, its also a very good wincon in its own right with CM)
Groudon (this is here mainly because setup sets, whether sd, rp or both, are terrifying to switch into. there arent any mons that tank pblades/dclaw/edge besides skarm, and very little outspeeds you at +2. the support sets with rocks and twave are also very annoying and very good, although the kyogre mu is rlly awkward without gastro)
Rayquaza (still stupid scary to switch into even with arc forms around. pairs well with twave tina-o/palkia since ray just rips through fairyceus once thats paralyzed. it can have trouble to setup sometimes which is why i also love CB. would always go jolly nowadays, being faster than base 90s is really important vs non scarf ogre and tina-o)
A-:
Arceus-Fighting (on one hand, fightceus lets m2 in for basically free which is insanely bad. on the other, you have a mon that checks ekiller, darkrai, darkceus, all while being a defogger that beats support dialga. of course, the m2 part is still insanely bad but can be minimized with good play and its qualities are very unique)
Arceus-Rock (ho-oh is very annoying against a lot of teams and this is basically the best ho-oh answer barring like waterceus. unlike waterceus, however, you actually have a stab judgment thats pretty hard to switch into and the ability to handle ray)
Darkrai (specs and np are both really scary to switch into but its hard to fit onto teams due to it having no defensive utility barring being a cm two answer)
Ho-Oh (speaking of the bird, here it is. yeah yeah it lost bb and all that, but the only mon that really threatens it is ogre and that doesn't particularly enjoy the idea of switching into twave. regen helps it a lot in staying alive even in the face of rocks and it beats every rocker anyway barring edge groudon (which can still get screwed by sacred fire burn) and rockceus.)
Scizor (so remember when i talked about how scizor was likely falling off and all? yeah no LOL this mon is still great and its about time i talk about it. it beats non fire move mewtwo, fairyceus and darkceus while having a pivot move and priority. while fire move m2 is scary, you can usually tell whether it has it or not based on its teammates (if theres a don paired w it for example, then its a good idea to scout))
Shaymin-S (scarf is great speed control, outspeeding blaziken, ada rp groudon and scarf ogre. hwish is also a very good move that pairs well with a lot of stuff. seed flare is just hard to switch into in general as most steels get easily chipped down by leech seed + hazards)
Smeargle (webs moment)
Wobbuffet (while trapping is not as good as i thought it would be, partly due to clef being so good, ekiller/ray + wobb is still fucking insane against mostly everything else. pairing this with cb duggy or lucario are also great ways to circunvent the clef MU)
B+ (i added explanations for a lot of those now)
Arceus-Steel
Blaziken (its hard for it to find setup opportunities but once it does its hard to stop, cb is also pretty neat for the surprise factor)
Gastrodon (the mon i run the 1% im not running palkia on bo. prob the hardest counter to ogre in the entire game, soft checks a ton of other special attackers as well with clear smog)
Lucario
Skarmory (my main problem with this is how easily it gets beaten by last mon recover ekiller, meaning you cant really use this as your only answer. being the hardest ray counter in the game is pretty good tho, and spikes are always useful)
B:
Blissey (ranked among the other stall mons)
Bronzong (bronzong is really cool in theory but i dont like it that much bc of how passive it feels. Without toxic you lack any way of reasonably threatening anything. Maybe i just havent seen it enough, though)
Dugtrio (cb duggy + wobb is awesome if you feel like murdering stall. Sash duggy is also ok if you're weak to dialga/blissey but your team doesnt make use of wobb's qualities all too well)
Giratina (same thing as blissey)
Gliscor (it has a lot of really unique moves like u-turn, knock, toxic orb fling. Its also a defogger that beats dialga and does an alright job at shrugging of groudon. Could go in B+ honestly)
Lugia (same as bliss and tina but i feel like i have to specify this one more. CM Lugia is horrible. Like, if that was its only set id rank it at C at best. You lose in a cm war vs cm two, cm clef and a lot of cm arc forms. If they don't have it, they probably have some other form of stopping it, such as roar dialga or skarm. Theres just too many things that need to go right for it to sweep. Defensive lugia is annoying but hard to fit outside of stall.
B-:
Arceus-Water (its a nice answer to ogre in theory but you just get thundered in practice)
Garchomp
Quagsire
Salamence (scarf is way worse due to the variety of fairy types in the meta)
Shedinja
C:
Arceus-Electric
Arceus-Ground
Drapion (tspikes moment)
Gengar (its movepool is rlly nice and it should prob be explored more. I used a dbond set for ekiller and it worked alright)
Latios (this is being ranked less bc its good offensively or anything and more bc i value it as a screens setter)
Umbreon (its a dark type in case you want to run another arceus form fsr)
Weavile
Weezing (forgot this mon originally but it also does tspikey things. Ok on stall)
D:
Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Flying
Arceus-Grass
Arceus-Ice (you could maybe use cm iceceus viably but it just feels outclassed by so much that i didnt think it was worth ranking)
Arceus-Poison
Arceus-Psychic
Articuno
Manaphy (without perma rain this mon is just horrible)
S:
Arceus (dont think i have to explain this one. a team weak to ekiller is a bad team, simple as that)
S-:
Mewtwo (mewtwo not being S- isnt rlly bc i think its gotten worse but moreso because ekiller deserves its own tier. use cm taunt more that set is busted esp on tspikes)
Palkia (i slap this on like 99% of my offenses bc kyogre is extremely hard to answer otherwise and its also very scary vs non blissey teams regardless. lum is prob my favorite item on it, helps with ogre thunder paras, smeargle spore and tspikes)
A+:
Arceus-Fairy (really nice answer to palkia/gira-o on offense, also not bad vs ray. its offensive profile isn't as good imo but it can be a nice wincon with enough boosts)
Arceus-Ghost (there are very little ghost resists and most of them dont do much vs this mon, so its very scary. can also rkill a lot of stuff like ray or ekiller once they get low enough. i also enjoy support as it has the unique quality of living all of np two's moves and ohkoing with judgment)
Dialga (really reliable rocker that improves ur ogre and palkia mus a bit. offensive dialga is underrated as fuck, being a dragon that does not care abt clef in the slightest is really good)
Forretress (prob overrating this mon LOL but its def very good. tspikes are incredible into most of the meta and this also compresses spin and a pivot move (those are super rare in ubers) all while being a steel. also has overcoat meaning you deny anything smeargle may want to do vs you)
Giratina-O (now that steel doesnt resist ghost this mon is very hard to wall outside of some arceus forms. sneak is very good at finishing off weakened threats, esp m2. while i usually dont like defog on this due to how many other options it has, it can be worth it on some teams)
Kyogre (water spout goes vrrrrrrr, thats about it tbh. great mon)
A:
Arceus-Dark (notably the one thing that doesn't really mind cm taunt two (when tspikes arent up, anyways), also good answer to gira-o and ghostceus. one of the more dangerous cm ceus asw, nothing bar fightceus particularly enjoys facing it)
Clefable (after the 999th game of getting haha espeeded, i decided to give clef outside of stall a try and it ended up being way better than i imagined. not only does it check a lot of arceus forms pretty reliably, its also a very good wincon in its own right with CM)
Groudon (this is here mainly because setup sets, whether sd, rp or both, are terrifying to switch into. there arent any mons that tank pblades/dclaw/edge besides skarm, and very little outspeeds you at +2. the support sets with rocks and twave are also very annoying and very good, although the kyogre mu is rlly awkward without gastro)
Rayquaza (still stupid scary to switch into even with arc forms around. pairs well with twave tina-o/palkia since ray just rips through fairyceus once thats paralyzed. it can have trouble to setup sometimes which is why i also love CB. would always go jolly nowadays, being faster than base 90s is really important vs non scarf ogre and tina-o)
A-:
Arceus-Fighting (on one hand, fightceus lets m2 in for basically free which is insanely bad. on the other, you have a mon that checks ekiller, darkrai, darkceus, all while being a defogger that beats support dialga. of course, the m2 part is still insanely bad but can be minimized with good play and its qualities are very unique)
Arceus-Rock (ho-oh is very annoying against a lot of teams and this is basically the best ho-oh answer barring like waterceus. unlike waterceus, however, you actually have a stab judgment thats pretty hard to switch into and the ability to handle ray)
Darkrai (specs and np are both really scary to switch into but its hard to fit onto teams due to it having no defensive utility barring being a cm two answer)
Ho-Oh (speaking of the bird, here it is. yeah yeah it lost bb and all that, but the only mon that really threatens it is ogre and that doesn't particularly enjoy the idea of switching into twave. regen helps it a lot in staying alive even in the face of rocks and it beats every rocker anyway barring edge groudon (which can still get screwed by sacred fire burn) and rockceus.)
Scizor (so remember when i talked about how scizor was likely falling off and all? yeah no LOL this mon is still great and its about time i talk about it. it beats non fire move mewtwo, fairyceus and darkceus while having a pivot move and priority. while fire move m2 is scary, you can usually tell whether it has it or not based on its teammates (if theres a don paired w it for example, then its a good idea to scout))
Shaymin-S (scarf is great speed control, outspeeding blaziken, ada rp groudon and scarf ogre. hwish is also a very good move that pairs well with a lot of stuff. seed flare is just hard to switch into in general as most steels get easily chipped down by leech seed + hazards)
Smeargle (webs moment)
Wobbuffet (while trapping is not as good as i thought it would be, partly due to clef being so good, ekiller/ray + wobb is still fucking insane against mostly everything else. pairing this with cb duggy or lucario are also great ways to circunvent the clef MU)
B+ (i added explanations for a lot of those now)
Arceus-Steel
Blaziken (its hard for it to find setup opportunities but once it does its hard to stop, cb is also pretty neat for the surprise factor)
Gastrodon (the mon i run the 1% im not running palkia on bo. prob the hardest counter to ogre in the entire game, soft checks a ton of other special attackers as well with clear smog)
Lucario
Skarmory (my main problem with this is how easily it gets beaten by last mon recover ekiller, meaning you cant really use this as your only answer. being the hardest ray counter in the game is pretty good tho, and spikes are always useful)
B:
Blissey (ranked among the other stall mons)
Bronzong (bronzong is really cool in theory but i dont like it that much bc of how passive it feels. Without toxic you lack any way of reasonably threatening anything. Maybe i just havent seen it enough, though)
Dugtrio (cb duggy + wobb is awesome if you feel like murdering stall. Sash duggy is also ok if you're weak to dialga/blissey but your team doesnt make use of wobb's qualities all too well)
Giratina (same thing as blissey)
Gliscor (it has a lot of really unique moves like u-turn, knock, toxic orb fling. Its also a defogger that beats dialga and does an alright job at shrugging of groudon. Could go in B+ honestly)
Lugia (same as bliss and tina but i feel like i have to specify this one more. CM Lugia is horrible. Like, if that was its only set id rank it at C at best. You lose in a cm war vs cm two, cm clef and a lot of cm arc forms. If they don't have it, they probably have some other form of stopping it, such as roar dialga or skarm. Theres just too many things that need to go right for it to sweep. Defensive lugia is annoying but hard to fit outside of stall.
B-:
Arceus-Water (its a nice answer to ogre in theory but you just get thundered in practice)
Garchomp
Quagsire
Salamence (scarf is way worse due to the variety of fairy types in the meta)
Shedinja
C:
Arceus-Electric
Arceus-Ground
Drapion (tspikes moment)
Gengar (its movepool is rlly nice and it should prob be explored more. I used a dbond set for ekiller and it worked alright)
Latios (this is being ranked less bc its good offensively or anything and more bc i value it as a screens setter)
Umbreon (its a dark type in case you want to run another arceus form fsr)
Weavile
Weezing (forgot this mon originally but it also does tspikey things. Ok on stall)
D:
Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Flying
Arceus-Grass
Arceus-Ice (you could maybe use cm iceceus viably but it just feels outclassed by so much that i didnt think it was worth ranking)
Arceus-Poison
Arceus-Psychic
Articuno
Manaphy (without perma rain this mon is just horrible)
Last edited:
Deoxys formes are coded into the game but there is currently no way to get one. It'll be usage most likey when Pokémon HOME support drop (which may or may not take a while).
Genesect is a Gen5+ Pokémon and thus not coded into the game.
Cool VR VTMagno !
I have to agree with what others say that Toxic spikes are incredibly strong in this tier.
T-Spikes + Hex Giratino-O is an amazing late game cleaner/Breakers due to lack of ghost resists in the tier and most steel types hating a Willo-Wisp. It also helps that most of the best defoggers in the tier are all vulnerable to T-spikes and the ones that aren't are extremely vulnerable to Spikes/SR
T-Spikes + Hex Giratino-O is an amazing late game cleaner/Breakers due to lack of ghost resists in the tier and most steel types hating a Willo-Wisp. It also helps that most of the best defoggers in the tier are all vulnerable to T-spikes and the ones that aren't are extremely vulnerable to Spikes/SR
hey! deoxys is incoming in very little time and it will completely change the meta as we know it (even deo-d with tspikes sounds terrifying dear lord). since i feel like doing something closely related to this tier but also don't want to wait 20 minutes until I get a single game, I've decided to instead make a large ass post on my final thoughts before the HO lord returns.
Underrated sets:
Due to this meta being not very played in general, it's hard to gauge what's overrated and what's underrated besides a few clear outliers. Still, I just put sets that I haven't seen other people use.
Palkia @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Hydro Pump
- Thunder
- Flamethrower/Focus Punch/whatever filler fits best
Imo every team needs some kind of plan vs lead smeargle so it doesn't get both sleep and webs against your team and this is one of the better ones. Palkia can afford to be really flexible in its item slot, so lum is a great choice. Unlike some of the other counterplay to smeargle, it also doesn't get ruined by nuzzle which has been seeing some use recently, only losing to random moody +2 speed. Also helps with shrugging off paras from twave ogre and ho-oh mid game which is arguably just as helpful.
Mewtwo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Unnerve
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psystrike
- Aura Sphere
- Flamethrower/Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
Most team's counterplay to non CM taunt two (which I absolutely think is underrated too but that's more because of how good that set is rather than it not seeing usage) is not giving it a setup opportunity and, if it gets one, then force it out with a scarfer/strong enough prio after it gets a kill. Specs two completely punishes that line of thinking. The immediate power is really nice to come in multiple times a game and keep firing hits. Another really cool application is that due to the extra moveslot it can pick Shadow Ball to 1v1 CM Two without much issue, especially with spdef drops.
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
244 HP / 148 SpD / 116 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earthquake
- Fling
- Roost
- U-Turn
Most teams in general just aren't prepared to handle poison. That's part of the reason T-Spikes are so incredibly good. While Gliscor's other moves like Knock Off and Defog, Fling is another option that while not easy to fit, can be devastating in the right matchup. This is especially nice vs setup mons like Ekiller, Groudon etc who are otherwise quite hard to stop.
Dugtrio @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Beat Up
CB Duggy itself is something that I've posted about before. One of its main traits is how, in double trap teams, it has the amazing ability to instead of abusing Wobb's encore to setup, abusing it to straight up remove one of the opponent's pokemon. This is especially huge vs stall, which usually handles the abusers quite nicely though Unaware Clefable/Quagsire, both of which end up trapped. Beat Up on CB Duggy though is something that I've never talked about before I believe. Iirc eve first suggested the set on bdsp discord as an anti wobb measure, but I've found it does well as an anti smeargle measure as well. In most teams where the overall attack stat of mons isn't very low, beat up is gonna be dealing enough damage to KO smeargle while breaking through its sash.
General Thoughts:
I don't know if this is a hot take or not, but at this point it feels like every non HO team basically requires a CM mon to work. If you look at the builder, most of tier's offensive mons are either special, like Kyogre and Palkia, or have both special and physical sets, like tina-o and, in a way, arceus forms. The moment you setup a CM, you basically block most of those mon's attempts to really dent you. There are exceptions, of course; things like Mewtwo and Rayquaza can pose quite a scary threat to a lot of them, but at this point we have so many of those CM wincons that you can just choose the one you're most weak to. Be it from the standard CM Arceus forms, to more bulky ones in RestTalk Kyogre or even more fringe ones like CM Tina-O, they all can put in work on a game to game basis.
Would like to highlight two of those in particular. Clefable and Mewtwo are great CM mons for stopping other CM mons while being good wincons in their own right.
Don't think anything needs to be said about Clef; Unaware is a crazy good ability for not only nulifying any progress setup sweepers may make; while E-Killer is usually the biggest reason you're running this mon, it can soft check about any statupper. I've stalled out Rays and Groudons in the past, for example. This includes the many Calm Minders; in fact, it turns those mons into setup opportunity to start snowballing itself.
CM Mewtwo, while not having nearly as much defensive utility as CM Clef, more than makes up for that with its lack of usual counterplay. Phazing? Get taunted lol. Twave? Get taunted lol. Other CMers that might pose a problem to your team if they snowball too much? Get taunted lol. This is especially nasty when paired with T-Spikes, as the few dark types that are immune to boosted psystrikes get worn down very quickly.
Deviating a little from the whole CM mons thing, Ho-Oh is really really good. It answers CM Clef, bullies skymin, laughs at dialga's face, spreads status super easily and just soft checks so much of the tier. Requires pairing it with heavy anti-kyogre support but it's worth it. The rocks weakness sucks but can also be alleviated; it can even run defog itself depending on the team because it also beats most rockers.
I know it has been said a million times in this thread already, but T-Spikes are really, REALLY strong. Sometimes I look at the opponent's team and there's like only 2-3 mons that get affected by them and yet I still set them anyway because of how strong they are versus the few that are. It feels like just about every mon has ways to abuse it to great extent nowadays and being immune to them is a huge benefit. They notably pair well with all the CM mons we've seen running around.
Finally, is it just me or have we not seen as much Defog Arceus lately? It just feels like whenever I need hazard control, I resort to other options, such as Giratina, Forre, Scizor or the afromentioned Ho-Oh. While I feel this is partly because of CM Arceus being very good, I also think it's because it's a defogger that's extremely weak to tspikes, a really bad trait currently. Instead, whenever I'm not using CM, I usually lean towards using SR arceus. It enables dialga to run one of its 5 million other sets, while groudon is great but can be hard to fit sometimes compared to a mon that's quite literally required on every team.
Main Teams I've used recently:
Scizor + Fightceus BO
BU Dialga T-Spikes
Closing Thoughts:
While I was initially skeptical about Arceus' addition, it turned out to be great for the metagame and I'm really excited to see how everything will change with deoxys around.
Underrated sets:
Due to this meta being not very played in general, it's hard to gauge what's overrated and what's underrated besides a few clear outliers. Still, I just put sets that I haven't seen other people use.
Palkia @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Hydro Pump
- Thunder
- Flamethrower/Focus Punch/whatever filler fits best
Imo every team needs some kind of plan vs lead smeargle so it doesn't get both sleep and webs against your team and this is one of the better ones. Palkia can afford to be really flexible in its item slot, so lum is a great choice. Unlike some of the other counterplay to smeargle, it also doesn't get ruined by nuzzle which has been seeing some use recently, only losing to random moody +2 speed. Also helps with shrugging off paras from twave ogre and ho-oh mid game which is arguably just as helpful.
Mewtwo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Unnerve
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psystrike
- Aura Sphere
- Flamethrower/Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
Most team's counterplay to non CM taunt two (which I absolutely think is underrated too but that's more because of how good that set is rather than it not seeing usage) is not giving it a setup opportunity and, if it gets one, then force it out with a scarfer/strong enough prio after it gets a kill. Specs two completely punishes that line of thinking. The immediate power is really nice to come in multiple times a game and keep firing hits. Another really cool application is that due to the extra moveslot it can pick Shadow Ball to 1v1 CM Two without much issue, especially with spdef drops.
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
244 HP / 148 SpD / 116 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earthquake
- Fling
- Roost
- U-Turn
Most teams in general just aren't prepared to handle poison. That's part of the reason T-Spikes are so incredibly good. While Gliscor's other moves like Knock Off and Defog, Fling is another option that while not easy to fit, can be devastating in the right matchup. This is especially nice vs setup mons like Ekiller, Groudon etc who are otherwise quite hard to stop.
Dugtrio @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Beat Up
CB Duggy itself is something that I've posted about before. One of its main traits is how, in double trap teams, it has the amazing ability to instead of abusing Wobb's encore to setup, abusing it to straight up remove one of the opponent's pokemon. This is especially huge vs stall, which usually handles the abusers quite nicely though Unaware Clefable/Quagsire, both of which end up trapped. Beat Up on CB Duggy though is something that I've never talked about before I believe. Iirc eve first suggested the set on bdsp discord as an anti wobb measure, but I've found it does well as an anti smeargle measure as well. In most teams where the overall attack stat of mons isn't very low, beat up is gonna be dealing enough damage to KO smeargle while breaking through its sash.
General Thoughts:
I don't know if this is a hot take or not, but at this point it feels like every non HO team basically requires a CM mon to work. If you look at the builder, most of tier's offensive mons are either special, like Kyogre and Palkia, or have both special and physical sets, like tina-o and, in a way, arceus forms. The moment you setup a CM, you basically block most of those mon's attempts to really dent you. There are exceptions, of course; things like Mewtwo and Rayquaza can pose quite a scary threat to a lot of them, but at this point we have so many of those CM wincons that you can just choose the one you're most weak to. Be it from the standard CM Arceus forms, to more bulky ones in RestTalk Kyogre or even more fringe ones like CM Tina-O, they all can put in work on a game to game basis.
Would like to highlight two of those in particular. Clefable and Mewtwo are great CM mons for stopping other CM mons while being good wincons in their own right.
Don't think anything needs to be said about Clef; Unaware is a crazy good ability for not only nulifying any progress setup sweepers may make; while E-Killer is usually the biggest reason you're running this mon, it can soft check about any statupper. I've stalled out Rays and Groudons in the past, for example. This includes the many Calm Minders; in fact, it turns those mons into setup opportunity to start snowballing itself.
CM Mewtwo, while not having nearly as much defensive utility as CM Clef, more than makes up for that with its lack of usual counterplay. Phazing? Get taunted lol. Twave? Get taunted lol. Other CMers that might pose a problem to your team if they snowball too much? Get taunted lol. This is especially nasty when paired with T-Spikes, as the few dark types that are immune to boosted psystrikes get worn down very quickly.
Deviating a little from the whole CM mons thing, Ho-Oh is really really good. It answers CM Clef, bullies skymin, laughs at dialga's face, spreads status super easily and just soft checks so much of the tier. Requires pairing it with heavy anti-kyogre support but it's worth it. The rocks weakness sucks but can also be alleviated; it can even run defog itself depending on the team because it also beats most rockers.
I know it has been said a million times in this thread already, but T-Spikes are really, REALLY strong. Sometimes I look at the opponent's team and there's like only 2-3 mons that get affected by them and yet I still set them anyway because of how strong they are versus the few that are. It feels like just about every mon has ways to abuse it to great extent nowadays and being immune to them is a huge benefit. They notably pair well with all the CM mons we've seen running around.
Finally, is it just me or have we not seen as much Defog Arceus lately? It just feels like whenever I need hazard control, I resort to other options, such as Giratina, Forre, Scizor or the afromentioned Ho-Oh. While I feel this is partly because of CM Arceus being very good, I also think it's because it's a defogger that's extremely weak to tspikes, a really bad trait currently. Instead, whenever I'm not using CM, I usually lean towards using SR arceus. It enables dialga to run one of its 5 million other sets, while groudon is great but can be hard to fit sometimes compared to a mon that's quite literally required on every team.
Main Teams I've used recently:
Scizor + Fightceus BO
BU Dialga T-Spikes
Closing Thoughts:
While I was initially skeptical about Arceus' addition, it turned out to be great for the metagame and I'm really excited to see how everything will change with deoxys around.