Metagame Benjamin Butterfree

[LordHelix]

Hey can anyone tell me what this metagame is like? Not to offend anyone but it seems like i can just use my OU teams here and not notice the difference

Stall will still function similarly bcz ur not supposed to let ur mons die
HO stays the same as most HO staples are single evolution like tapus/UBs/megas.

And balance doesnt benefit that much imo, sycther/clefairy/ferroseed/kadabra/gligar arent really mons that take hits well or dish out hits well, and are very very easily taken advantage of so theyre more of a liability than an asset

Soo.. what gives?

 

[DanDaMan99]

Anyone got a sample team?

 

[Tøp Tier]

Oi I'm pretty sure theres a bug with Download, Porygon2 pops Download before the stat reset so it instantly loses the boost

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7benjaminbutterfree-785532740

 

[Shonen Bat]

Having a lot of fun with Benjamin Butterfree so far, but as I kept playing Blissey/Chansey got annoying enough for me to want to comment on it, so here it is.

I don't know the game well enough to know if they're banworthy or not, but I do know that alongside other walls I've been seeing often such as Gliscor and Toxapex they turn almost every match into a 100+ turn slog, win or lose.

I haven't really taken part in any suspect tests or anything like that, so sorry if I'm way off the mark about de blob(s).

 

[Squawkerz]

So, after the first few days of this OM on the ladder, I can tell that Blissey is a glaring problem in this metagame.

Blissey's main draw is the insane bulk of Blissey and Chansey. In addition, the removal of status upon switching out with Natural Cure and upon de-evolution make it almost impossible to wear down using status. These two things make Blissey one of the best pokemon in the meta, as well as drastically increasing the viability of Stall teams. One downside of the Blissey line is that Happiny is usually deadweight, because a lot of the moves used by Blissey and Chansey are not available on Happiny.

I am thinking of three possible ideas on how to deal with the Blissey line, and would like discussion on which is the best option

1. Ban Blissey
2. Ban Blissey & Chansey
3. Nothing

 

[Ivy]

Was there a secret hotpatch? Looks like status isn't removed on devolving any more according to some in the OM room. Example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7benjaminbutterfree-786437484

 

[Squawkerz]

Was there a secret hotpatch? Looks like status isn't removed on devolving any more according to some in the OM room. Example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7benjaminbutterfree-786437484

that definitely should not be happening, if it changed it must have been pretty recent

 

[Shonen Bat]

after seeing stuff like shed shell bisharp to avoid magnezone and trap gengar with pursuit so it can't perish trap blissey, yeah pretty inclined towards banning both of them

this is a garbage direction for the meta to go

that's not a bad gimmick team thing either, it's the top team on the ladder right now

 

[urkerab]

Was there a secret hotpatch? Looks like status isn't removed on devolving any more according to some in the OM room. Example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7benjaminbutterfree-786437484

That was my fault, I introduced the bug fixing the max HP not reducing on devolution bug. It will be fixed shortly.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

So, after the first few days of this OM on the ladder, I can tell that Blissey is a glaring problem in this metagame.

Blissey's main draw is the insane bulk of Blissey and Chansey. In addition, the removal of status upon switching out with Natural Cure and upon de-evolution make it almost impossible to wear down using status. These two things make Blissey one of the best pokemon in the meta, as well as drastically increasing the viability of Stall teams. One downside of the Blissey line is that Happiny is usually deadweight, because a lot of the moves used by Blissey and Chansey are not available on Happiny.

I am thinking of three possible ideas on how to deal with the Blissey line, and would like discussion on which is the best option

1. Ban Blissey
2. Ban Blissey & Chansey
3. Nothing

This is actually an interesting question. In this meta, Blissey basically has 1.7k HP because all of their evo line has similar defenses. The first and second question is between “let’s nerf Blissey line” or “let’s basically ban Blissey line entirely”. My personal take is ban Blissey only because it’s not a complex ban. Why banning the entire line when you can nerf it?

 

[Shonen Bat]

my reasoning for wanting the entire line banned is that even just chansey would center the whole match around killing it the same way blissey/chansey does, where you have counters to chansey counters and then counters that beat those counters unless they prepared for that too. it's just unhealthy and super not fun and I don't see it going away unless both of them are banned.

 

[tommytt22]

idk if this has been asked, but how do z crystals work? it says if an item has been consumed it wont appear on the devolution but z crystals dont go away after they have be consumed and cannot be knocked off

 

[the confusion]

Why don't status go away now?

 

[Ellicrum]

Having done 4-5 games in this format, I must say that this is perhaps one of the most fun OMs presented in 2018. I guess it has already been mentioned here but the menu sprites (the small pictures of your team below the trainer in the Showdown interface) do not change when your mon "de-evolves": for example when I have an Aron in the game, it's always an Aggron that appears on the PS menu (and when you want to see the mon's description, by passing the mouse's cursor, it's always the final evolution). By cons, no problem for replays: this error does not appear.

But this is not the most bizarre. In this replay, the opponent uses a Shedinja and he suicide on the stealth rocks turn 24: the small Nincada keeps Wonder Guard (and temporarily its double type bug/ghost). I guess this is the only possible bug for an ability (the coding must be complex for a game element that is unique to a mon).

 

[dakotaromans]

One thing I noticed sometimes status carried over it was always a poison but burn never did and also when a mega dies it retained it's mega ability I didn't save the replays cuz I didn't k ow if it was a bug or intentional

 

[urkerab]

There have been some problems with the devolution because ROM where I developed the code works slightly differently to main but I think they've all been ironed out now.

 

[Ellicrum]

Just now, I just made a match and the correction is not yet effective (anyway there is nothing serious: it's just a sprite problem and mon's designation).

Screen during the match

Screen of the same match in replay (there is just the menu sprite that changes)

 

[Shonen Bat]

since there isn't much discussion on blobs ban and it seems like Chansey more than Blissey is the big problem with that line, I saved some replays to make a more detailed post on them.

237 turns, takes over 200 turns for a mon to actually faint
116 turns, even with Blissey taken out early Chansey and the rest of its team are still kickin' for 60-some turns
168 turns, Blissey/Chansey and friends dragging out a game for eternity

Blissey and Chansey, and teams built around them, lead to a lot of really boring, long battles that are mostly spent switching between checks to the blobs and checks to those checks, and then going back around to blobs and repeating, for a hundred turns or more.

107 turns, blobs wear down a team so much that the battle ends with Toxapex PP stall
110 turns, entire back half of the battle is stalling out Chansey because nothing could kill it

barely anything in the current meta is capable of seriously threatening Chansey, and even Conkeldurr which is probably the scariest thing in the game right now, has checks that can take hits for it such as Toxapex or Sableye. Chansey can win games just by making them last so long that the handful of viable checks to it are dead or too weak to take it down at the end. so I'm hoping to see the whole Blissey line get banned, since there aren't many ways to deal with it without using less viable pokemon or gimmicks such as perish trapping just for it.

 

[Cute Charm Clefable]

since there isn't much discussion on blobs ban and it seems like Chansey more than Blissey is the big problem with that line, I saved some replays to make a more detailed post on them.

237 turns, takes over 200 turns for a mon to actually faint
116 turns, even with Blissey taken out early Chansey and the rest of its team are still kickin' for 60-some turns
168 turns, Blissey/Chansey and friends dragging out a game for eternity

Blissey and Chansey, and teams built around them, lead to a lot of really boring, long battles that are mostly spent switching between checks to the blobs and checks to those checks, and then going back around to blobs and repeating, for a hundred turns or more.

107 turns, blobs wear down a team so much that the battle ends with Toxapex PP stall
110 turns, entire back half of the battle is stalling out Chansey because nothing could kill it

barely anything in the current meta is capable of seriously threatening Chansey, and even Conkeldurr which is probably the scariest thing in the game right now, has checks that can take hits for it such as Toxapex or Sableye. Chansey can win games just by making them last so long that the handful of viable checks to it are dead or too weak to take it down at the end. so I'm hoping to see the whole Blissey line get banned, since there aren't many ways to deal with it without using less viable pokemon or gimmicks such as perish trapping just for it.

Hey I'm in the first replay! Nice!

 

[Jrsmash9]

Blissey is very good in the fact that it is the only pokemon to devolve into something better then the final evolution. It is mostly used on stall and balance builds and it really capitalizes on the meta. Most people are using bad pokemon like golem, infernape, and conk who really aren't that good in standard ou. Sure they get slightly buffed in this metagame but is using a monferno against a pex or lando really going to help much. No one is using true stall breakers like Mawile, Medicham, Hoopa-U, and Kyub because they dont benefit from the meta concept, but in reality they are better then most of the 3 evo line pokemon that people are using. Once people start using good ou mons that can beat blissey then it wont really be a problem anymore. Even if blissey is deemed broken then it should be be banned and not chansey. There is no point in banning chansey as it gains nothing from the meta and is effectively the same as it is in ou.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

So uh, can we do something about Blissey/Chansey already? It’s a clear problem and it’s currently suffocating the meta. Idk what is the preferred decision but something must be done to them ASAP.

 

[Shonen Bat]

Blissey is very good in the fact that it is the only pokemon to devolve into something better then the final evolution. It is mostly used on stall and balance builds and it really capitalizes on the meta. Most people are using bad pokemon like golem, infernape, and conk who really aren't that good in standard ou. Sure they get slightly buffed in this metagame but is using a monferno against a pex or lando really going to help much. No one is using true stall breakers like Mawile, Medicham, Hoopa-U, and Kyub because they dont benefit from the meta concept, but in reality they are better then most of the 3 evo line pokemon that people are using. Once people start using good ou mons that can beat blissey then it wont really be a problem anymore. Even if blissey is deemed broken then it should be be banned and not chansey. There is no point in banning chansey as it gains nothing from the meta and is effectively the same as it is in ou.

single or double-stage Pokemon like the examples you gave are generally terrible in bb unless they have staying power, such as Sableye or Gliscor. Weavile is the only exception to this I can think of. they have to play extremely carefully to not get revenge killed by the first thing they attack and leave the game 5-6. If one of these were being used as a wallbreaker to Chansey it would have to be used even more conservatively or else faint before it even sees de blob. most ou mons that can beat Chansey/Blissey aren't as viable here and that's what makes them both such a big problem.

 

[Jrsmash9]

single or double-stage Pokemon like the examples you gave are generally terrible in bb unless they have staying power, such as Sableye or Gliscor. Weavile is the only exception to this I can think of. they have to play extremely carefully to not get revenge killed by the first thing they attack and leave the game 5-6. If one of these were being used as a wallbreaker to Chansey it would have to be used even more conservatively or else faint before it even sees de blob. most ou mons that can beat Chansey/Blissey aren't as viable here and that's what makes them both such a big problem.

Most ou pokemon are just as viable besides some sweepers like mimikyu. The problem is people just arent using ou pokemon because they are busy playing around with the "new" mechanics. If you bring mons that cant dent blissey then you deserve to lose to it if you fight it. Also there is lots of viable 1-2 stage mons like scizor, lando, muk, latios, lele, hoopa-u, mawile, heatran, torn-t, zygarde, and koko.

 

[Shonen Bat]

what I've seen from playing and watching matches completely contradicts that ou viability = bb viability. something like magearna or a tapu will show up rarely and either die instantly or spend the entire match running away from a multi stage mon so it doesn't get revenge killed.

and nearly every team runs conk and at least one other strong physical mon, krookodile/weavile/mamoswine are common but there are plenty more, but blissey and chansey are difficult anyways because everything else gets worn down and they don't.

 

[LordHelix]

Having done 4-5 games in this format, I must say that this is perhaps one of the most fun OMs presented in 2018. I guess it has already been mentioned here but the menu sprites (the small pictures of your team below the trainer in the Showdown interface) do not change when your mon "de-evolves": for example when I have an Aron in the game, it's always an Aggron that appears on the PS menu (and when you want to see the mon's description, by passing the mouse's cursor, it's always the final evolution). By cons, no problem for replays: this error does not appear.

But this is not the most bizarre. In this replay, the opponent uses a Shedinja and he suicide on the stealth rocks turn 24: the small Nincada keeps Wonder Guard (and temporarily its double type bug/ghost). I guess this is the only possible bug for an ability (the coding must be complex for a game element that is unique to a mon).

Its not exclusive to nincada, i think it still keeps final evolution ability for all mons even if prevolution doesnt have it. For example poison heal still works on gligar after devolution despite it not having poison heal