Blaziken

[blasphemy1]

I dunno blasphemy, Sub + LO sucks at the best of times and Blaziken -needs- Life Orb (one could argue he is one of the best users of Life Orb on the entire game). And I also think Blaziken forces enough switches for Sub/Protect to be a mostly wasted moveslot. This isn't Ninjask we're talking about here.

I still say the set I posted in the OP is gonna be the standard once people realise there are far better late game sweepers than SDBlaziken. Unfortunately I've since realised that Stone Edge isn't a TM and will most likely be illegal with Speed Boost so looks like Rock Slide gets the nod. It's a big drop in power but the flinch rate has good synergy with Speed Boost.

Eh, you're probably right. He'd appreciate the extra coverage move anyways. After a Swords Dance, Rock Slide OHKOs Gyarados, Dragonite, and Salamence (with Intimidate) w/out Stealth Rock. You still have to watch out for Scarf Flygon, but especially Scarf Garchomp, who can switch into Fire Punch / Swords Dance / Rock Slide and force you out or OHKO. It's still risky though, as unboosted Hi Jump Kick does 83.2% - 98.3%. Burunkeru (new Water/Ghost) is a pretty neat check. It is immune to Fighting and resists Fire, only taking neutral from Rock Slide. It has Boiling Water or Surf to kill off Blaziken, and Speed Boost Blaziken cannot have ThunderPunch. Shadow Claw could be a problem, but Burunkeru is really it's only use because +2 Hi Jump Kick does 94.8% - 111.9% to 112 / 0 Latias.

EDIT: Even if Stone Edge is still a TM, I'd prefer Rock Slide on something as powerful and frail as Blaziken, considering it gets all the necessary KO's.

 

[Elfam]

btw serebii says it is a tm... tm71 so are u sure it isnt a tm?

 

[Santa_Clauz]

btw serebii says it is a tm... tm71 so are u sure it isnt a tm?

Isn't that just gen IV?

 

[Lee]

Oh...er...my bad. Musta got it confused with Stealth Rock. *facepalms*

Also looking back at Lee's set, that does seem pretty nice, though something worth noting, you should pretty much always use HJK when you think your opponent will switch, as the pokemon Lee compared Fire Blast against actually take more from HJK, even though you risk hurting yourself. Also, Neutral HJK does more than SE hidden power, just something to keep in mind.

Neutral HJK has more BP but it depends on whom the target is. For example.

HJK vs 252/252+ Suicune = 35% - 42%
HP vs 252/0 Suicune = 42% - 50%

Slowbro, Starmie and Intimidate Gyarados also take more from Fire Blast than they do from HJK. I suppose the big decision is choosing which move to lead off with.

 

[Elfam]

it says fukiyose cave... dont know it so pretty sure its gen 5

 

[Charlemagne]

Slowbro, Starmie and Intimidate Gyarados also take more from Fire Blast than they do from HJK. I suppose the big decision is choosing which move to lead off with.

Stone Edge'em. Especially Gyarados. Intimidate won't save it.

 

[Santa_Clauz]

Neutral HJK has more BP but it depends on whom the target is. For example.

HJK vs 252/252+ Suicune = 35% - 42%
HP vs 252/0 Suicune = 42% - 50%

Slowbro, Starmie and Intimidate Gyarados also take more from Fire Blast than they do from HJK. I suppose the big decision is choosing which move to lead off with.

*Facepalm* Herp Derp, I'm retarded today.

Anyway, Yeah, that's my main issue, seems like the set would only really work once you've seen most of you oppnents team, and you can reasonably guess what they're going to do.

 

[Elfam]

for the record i feel like intimidating gyardos has seen its end now that it has overconfidence it will probably be abusing that ability

i only wish he had something to really take out the garchomp/flygon

 

[Santa_Clauz]

for the record i feel like intimidating gyardos has seen its end now that it has overconfidence it will probably be abusing that ability

i only wish he had something to really take out the dragon types

No way, believe me, Intimidate is MUCH better than overconfidence. How does overconfidence help when your opponent DDs with his, and you switch in gyara, and it gets clobbered by a boosted stone edge. The hype about overconfidence will die down, and soon, once people realize mence and Gyara were better off before. Also, Blaziken has no problem with hitting dragons neutrally. You've seen the insane power an UNBOOSTED HJK boasts, don't worry about it.

 

[IcyMan28]

I would personally open with Stone Edge the first time Blaziken is out. Score some decent damage on many of its common switch-ins (most of which can't really afford to take an attack + HJK), and scout their main check. The second time around, Claw Sharpen / SD and wrap up the game.

 

[Elfam]

thanks santa... reallly worried bout this guy versus the dragons that im betting will soon run rampant because shanderaa will prob eliminate steels easily and take out ice types as well which were some of the only things keeping dragons from just outraging everything into oblivion. and i dont want blaziken to be left out to dry

yeah i agree with icy mainly because he needs 2 turns to become unbeatable with speed, and a faster pokemon wouldnt have a difficult time OHKOing it... or at least getting it within LO self KO

 

[Santa_Clauz]

I would personally open with Stone Edge the first time Blaziken is out. Score some decent damage on many of its common switch-ins (most of which can't really afford to take an attack + HJK), and scout their main check. The second time around, Claw Sharpen / SD and wrap up the game.

Thing is, if you mispredict with Stone Edge not much happens. If you hit your opponent with a NVE Fire blast or HJK, they still take anywhere up to 50%, or something approaching it. In addition, as Lee said indirectly, Blaziken is too fragile to be a boosting sweeper. I mean, can you imagine taking a technician Breloom's mach punch to the face?

 

[Elfam]

yeah i feel technician breloom will die out also... so more scared of the aqua jetig extremespeed users

 

[Santa_Clauz]

yeah i feel technician breloom will die out also... so more scared of the aqua jetig extremespeed users

Fun fact for you here. While indeed technician breloom will die out shortly after release, it will certainly be capable of OHKOing Blaziken, easily.

 

[Charlemagne]

Thing is, if you mispredict with Stone Edge not much happens. If you hit your opponent with a NVE Fire blast or HJK, they still take anywhere up to 50%, or something approaching it. In addition, as Lee said indirectly, Blaziken is too fragile to be a boosting sweeper. I mean, can you imagine taking a technician Breloom's mach punch to the face?

I'm sure Shandera will be switching in on Blaziken. Definitely best to Stone Edge.

Breloom will certainly see more use. Maybe Shandera would be a good partener for Blaziken. Or just Gengar, who imo in many ways is still better. Can't Shadow Tag trap, but Levitate is still awesome for a Blaziken Teammate.

 

[doomvendingmachine]

IMO, technitian breloom is here to stay, mainly becuase is is one of the true counters to Doyoruzu (im sure i mispelled that, i mean the mole thing).

 

[Santa_Clauz]

Doryuzuu, I'm sure that's wrong too, is fucking terrifying, and you are still better off leading with Fire Blast or HJK against anyone with a brain, no one will switch Shanderaa into a Blaziken until they know for a fact that it lacks stone edge, seeing how max speed blaziken will ALWAYS outspeed or speed tie, if we want to make it that way, we can have it so Shanderaa is never a real threat, though we probably won't. Hope you guys have something to take advantage of a choiced Shadow ball. Going with Meloia-S myself probably.

 

[IcyMan28]

Thing is, if you mispredict with Stone Edge not much happens. If you hit your opponent with a NVE Fire blast or HJK, they still take anywhere up to 50%, or something approaching it. In addition, as Lee said indirectly, Blaziken is too fragile to be a boosting sweeper. I mean, can you imagine taking a technician Breloom's mach punch to the face?

If you think about the majority of pokemon that resist Blaziken's STABs, you'll see mostly Gyara, Mence, Burunkeru, Tentacruel...etc. Mispredicting with Stone Edge really isn't an issue because even if they lose a mere 15% from SE (unlikely given Blaze's power and LO), then they've lost 27% total thanks to Rocks/Spikes. Blaze can muscle through its counters the next time it comes in if such is the case.

Frailty is a poor excuse, IMO. Blaziken may be relatively susceptible to revenging, but if its outspeeding anything that isn't an issue. It resists the most common priority, as well as Sucker Punch, and there really aren't that many Aqua Jet users. Technician/Mach Punch Breloom isn't using it to its full potential, at least I don't think so. Poison heal and Spore are what carve out its niche, so really Extremespeed from Luke and Nite are the most viable priority moves. Even then, the use of HJK may come with the risk of missing, but it gains the benefit of retaining your defenses.

 

[Epic Cherubi]

If you think about the majority of pokemon that resist Blaziken's STABs, you'll see mostly Gyara, Mence, Burunkeru, Tentacruel...etc.

+2 Flare Blitz or High Jump Kick slaughters all of them. Even Gyarados after rocks is OHKOed. Tentacruel needs to max Defense to survive it at full HP after rocks.

Blaziken can easily run Protect in the last slot to prevent Scarfed revenge killing.

 

[Santa_Clauz]

Shanderaa wouldn't really work with Blaziken, no synergy, unlike gengar, who can take the ground moves, and Blaziken can use Gengar to set up on a locked dark move or something.

And on retrospect, I was hyping SD before, but Lee is right, mixed is better, setup sweepers just tend not to work without a good bit of bulk backing it up. It takes a certain spread to make a setup sweeper. Lucario has that great SD+ES thing going, and Manaphy and Garchomp just broke the metagame. Both Mence and Gyara work by being able to take a couple of hits, and have better offensive STABs to work with.

Not only that, but Blaziken has the perfect stats for a mixed set, especially now that he has speedboost, so it'd really be a waste to use anything else.

 

[IcyMan28]

SD is good, but it will take serious support...namely outspeeding said scarfers.

Mixed really does seem like the best option, and Blaziken's stats support that perfectly.

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Rash
60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe

- Fire Blast
- Hi Jump Kick
- Hidden Power Grass / Electric
- Stone Edge

This set from the OP looks most effective. I would go with HP Grass over Electric because, as the calcs show, there really is no need for Electric when Gyara is 2HKOd with Rocks with FB + SE alone. The ability to inflict immediate damage is also nice, which allows it to overpower its own counters early game, then come back later to finish the sweep.

 

[Santa_Clauz]

With a set of SD, Protect, Flare Blitz, and HJK as a poster above mentioned you'd have the power to blast through most things even with a NVE hit. What you do is switch Blaziken in on something that can't possible afford to stay in like Blissey. You SD on the switch. Then when their scarf counter comes out, use protect for the speed boost. Now you outspeed them and can easily OHKO with a +2 STAB HJK.

And... immediately die to a priority attack and LO/attack recoil. NEXT. And what if they have a slowbro, or anything that can actually take a single hit, or it you miss, you just instantly killed yourself. At least if a mixed HJK misses, you won't do a ridiculous amount to yourself.

 

[GLS]

And... immediately die to a priority attack and LO recoil. NEXT. And what if they have a slowbro, or anything that can actually take a single hit, or it you miss, you just instantly killed yourself. At least if a mixed HJK misses, you won't do a ridiculous amount to yourself.

If Blaziken misses it's going to die, period. Blazikens only hope of doing well is by killing the opponent before they kill you. On the mixed set I see an extreme lack of accuracy. And the mix set dies to priority just as easily.

 

[Santa_Clauz]

But the mix set didn't just waste a turn setting up, it will always be able to do something. In addition, I'd rather use the less powerful and accurate Fire Blast than kill myself with Flare Blitz.

Edit: whooo, 151, this discussion has reached R/B/Y proportions. Well this has been fun, but I've got to sleep at some point, and 4:10 seems as good a time as any to do it. Won't be on for a few days, so I expect to see some damn good theorymoning when I get back.

 

[blasphemy1]

You guys are making it sound like the pure physical set has to Swords Dance turn 1... nope. Does Lucario usually Swords Dance the first time it comes out? Hell no. You always want to scout your opponent's check or counter and get in a nice hit, then once you know it's been weakened you can hit them hard. All these Scarfers you're mentioning won't like Stone Edge or Hi Jump Kick on the switch. If you brought in something like Celebi to resist Hi Jump Kick, then Blaziken will have +1 Speed, and you obviously can no longer revenge kill it since it will have +2 Speed at the end of that turn. I'm not saying a physical set is better, but who says you have to set up? You're still doing 46.4% - 55% to 252 HP / 168 Def Impish Hippowdon with unboosted Hi Jump Kick, one of the most physically defensive Pokemon in the game.

Priority does beat it... but you can say the same about Infernape, even Lucario takes a shitload from Scizor's Bullet Punch. A mixed set to me seems viable, but in the end the physical set can run a more powerful set while it still has the potential to boost itself.

EDIT: Also, unlike Lucario, its check HAVE to run a Choice Scarf, which means forgoing Roost. Salamence vs. Lucario is pretty easy for Salamence, as they can switch moves after forcing it out with Earthquake or Fire Blast. Salamence vs. Blaziken? Salamence has to run Choice Scarf, so you know it'll be locked into: Dragon move or Earthquake. Now you have yourself a free switch into Skarmory, Bronzong, Nuttre, etc.