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Blissey substitutes....
- Thread starter Kabuto Mushi
- Start date
I think a combo like Milotic and a volt absorb/motor drive or ground type, to absorb the elec hits, works well.
And with marvel scale, resttalk Milotic over the recover/toxic set, allowing you to add some Spdef Evs instead of going 252 def. that lets milo take a lot more physical hits, also.. milo with stab'ed surf/hyrdo pump and ice beam does deal pretty decent damage.
And with marvel scale, resttalk Milotic over the recover/toxic set, allowing you to add some Spdef Evs instead of going 252 def. that lets milo take a lot more physical hits, also.. milo with stab'ed surf/hyrdo pump and ice beam does deal pretty decent damage.
The best substitute for Blissey is Chansey. :)
And while refusing to use Blissey does sometimes feel like an automatic disadvantage, it's a challenge I enjoy.
And while refusing to use Blissey does sometimes feel like an automatic disadvantage, it's a challenge I enjoy.
And Jumpluff :D But really, I remember in RSE Blissey and Celebi were practically the only viable clerics, and that was quite depressing. It has improved a bit, but still... bleh.
This is exactly what I was thinking as I was reading through the replies in this thread. People act like they need one specific pokemon to counter every single special threat in the game, which really isn't true. I don't think I've ever used Blissey (outside of Ubers), not because its so overused but just because I have better things to put in it's slot. As long as you play resistances and have good prediction, you can get by pretty much anything. I would only use Blissey if my team was especially Raikou weak or something
I think Blissey is too ugly and boring to use. You people can defend it to the ends of the earth, but it embarasses me that it's the most used pokemon in the game. You should all be ashamed; if Blissey represents what pokemon is all about, I'm against it.
A Calm Regice with 204 HP, 252 DEF, and 52 Sp. Def hits 352 HP, 299 DEF and 498 Sp. Def. Thats what my special wall is. I mean, sure, Blissey is the best special wall in the business, but I refuse to support it, because my team represents me in battle. If I didn't like them, they wouldn't be out there fighting for me.
So yeah, flame me because I don't like blissey (and refuse to use it for that reason) but if you want more reasons, here is some:
-Blissey has no reliable STAB move to use. You still get Bolt, Beam, and Flamethrower, but there are better pokes for this.
-Blissey sets usually don't have room for Aromatherapy, which would be the only reason I would consider it.
-Blissey's defense is horrible. Everyone already knows how much they need to kill max-max defense Bliss.
-It's attacking stats are poor. Seismic toss is the best offense save for against Dragons.
PS: Chainchomp is not really a special threat, BTW. It gets like 176*1.3 sp. atk.
A Calm Regice with 204 HP, 252 DEF, and 52 Sp. Def hits 352 HP, 299 DEF and 498 Sp. Def. Thats what my special wall is. I mean, sure, Blissey is the best special wall in the business, but I refuse to support it, because my team represents me in battle. If I didn't like them, they wouldn't be out there fighting for me.
So yeah, flame me because I don't like blissey (and refuse to use it for that reason) but if you want more reasons, here is some:
-Blissey has no reliable STAB move to use. You still get Bolt, Beam, and Flamethrower, but there are better pokes for this.
-Blissey sets usually don't have room for Aromatherapy, which would be the only reason I would consider it.
-Blissey's defense is horrible. Everyone already knows how much they need to kill max-max defense Bliss.
-It's attacking stats are poor. Seismic toss is the best offense save for against Dragons.
PS: Chainchomp is not really a special threat, BTW. It gets like 176*1.3 sp. atk.
Regiice with max defence owns. It can do some serious damage without seismic toss aswell. The only problem is the lack of instant recovery.
People keep saying Blissey has horrible defense, but a lot of Pokemon would love to be able to only take 70-80% from a Choice Band Adamant Garchomp Earthquake, for example.
I run Restalk. Using Restalk, Tbolt/Charge Beam and Ice Beam is a good set. With my carefully designed EVs, it can make a pinch Garchomp counter. Also, using Sleep Talk first turn on a Breloom is funny. OHKOd!!
Something else worth mentioning is Shuckle and Cradily. Both can surpass Blissey in Sp. Def in Sandstorm, and get leftovers recovery. Also, Cradily can stat-up without fear. Shuckle can knock off and encore.
I wouldn't exactly call that "great". Maybe compared to frail sweepers, but almost every bulky pokemon does much better than that.
Dusknoir can be a pretty good special wall, with 45/135/135 the hp is something to be desired, but it has the semi-reliable Pain Split for healing. Dusknoir also has 100 base attack along with Elemental punches and Shadow Sneak. While it is probably not the best special wall it is a decent alternative Special Wall, it is also infamous for being a Anti-Spinner.
It's great for something that is supposedly crumbles to any physical offense, as some people seem to believe.
Because of its boosts and high HP. It's the only reason why. Magikarp has a full 45 points better defense.
Blissey has to keep boosting that defense so it doesn't die to Tackle.
Ah, the Blissey Substitute discussion. Really it's a matter of how you prefer to define a "Substitute" for her.
A lot of days people that use her is for a reason that she is good. You can't defy the fact that 255 Base HP is more than good, it's damn near excellent. Is the 10 Base Defense a turn-off? Nope. Blissey can take a lot of hits: whether physical or special. She's not desinged to take physical assaults, but the point is is that she can to some limits.
Still, you can still use an effective team without Blissey (or even needs of using a special special wall altogether). If you're decent at predicting, you can aim to use countering by types, but then again that can be challenging as well. Still, what I'm trying to get at is is that you can try all you want to Substitute her, but usually none come close to her. Regice would probably be the only one I would consider outside of her, and that's only because of Rest / Sleep Talk / Charge Beam / Ice Beam does wonders. The runner up would be SleepTalking Cresselia.
A lot of days people that use her is for a reason that she is good. You can't defy the fact that 255 Base HP is more than good, it's damn near excellent. Is the 10 Base Defense a turn-off? Nope. Blissey can take a lot of hits: whether physical or special. She's not desinged to take physical assaults, but the point is is that she can to some limits.
Still, you can still use an effective team without Blissey (or even needs of using a special special wall altogether). If you're decent at predicting, you can aim to use countering by types, but then again that can be challenging as well. Still, what I'm trying to get at is is that you can try all you want to Substitute her, but usually none come close to her. Regice would probably be the only one I would consider outside of her, and that's only because of Rest / Sleep Talk / Charge Beam / Ice Beam does wonders. The runner up would be SleepTalking Cresselia.
Dialga has it beat: 11 Resistances and an immunity, AND lacks the Electric weakness Empoleon has. Of course, Dialga has only 1 4x resistance to grass while Empoleon has a 4x resistance to Ice and Steel, but come on. It's STEEL!
Meanwhile, Ghost/Steel is easily the best defensive typing in the game. Combine a typing like that with Levitate and you definitely have overkill.
No one should flame you for not using the best special wall in the game.
However, for being arrogant ass and telling us that we should be ashamed because we like using Blissey? Yeah, that's a valid reason to flame you.
In my 5> years of playing Pokemon competitively, I've never once used Blissey. Of course, she's the best special wall on the game, if not the best Pokemon in OU but my teams generally don't accomadate for her and now it has become a trend that I like to continue.
People who hate her need to adjust their team. Blissey is out there and she will be in 9/10 teams that you come up against. Prepare for her. Get some counters, or even better get some Pokemon who can set up against Blissey (Tyraniboah springs to mind). Eventually you'll come to relish the oppurtunites that Blissey brings everytime your opponent switches her in. Dugtrio is also a nice option. :)
People who hate her need to adjust their team. Blissey is out there and she will be in 9/10 teams that you come up against. Prepare for her. Get some counters, or even better get some Pokemon who can set up against Blissey (Tyraniboah springs to mind). Eventually you'll come to relish the oppurtunites that Blissey brings everytime your opponent switches her in. Dugtrio is also a nice option. :)
Blissey can throw a thunder-wave on any non-ground and get away. And hey what in the world, you mean since there's not many other viable clerics, if I don't have a Blissey of my own I can't heal the paralysis? *sigh*
Dugtrio is interesting, but I find him more of a liability on my teams. Electivire is interesting :)
i like usin jirachi cm set with a wish support vaporeon
Then use a Non-Ground, Hitmonlee, or somethat's that's already as slow as shit. If one of your Pokemon are getting paralysed everytime Blissey switches in, then you need to re-work your team. And if you're so worried about Blissey "getting away," then make life difficult for her:
CB Tyranitar Pursuit vs Bold Max/Max Blissey: 56.16% - 66.11%
Celebi, Miltank, Meganium, Jumpluff, Roserade and Articuno are all perfectly usable with the right support.
Hah, I got no problems, because I just start every single team with my Blissey counter. Gets tedious and annoying, but I do what I gotta do.
Meanwhile.... the other stuff you mentioned are so specific :/ So I can use the 4th most overused pokemon in the metagame, because I'm obviously fine with that, just can't stand #1 Blissey. This will deal enough damage so she is forced to use softboiled first turn when she comes back later against a special sweeper. And if I really feel the need for a non-Blissey Cleric, I can use Celebi, Miltank, a Pokemon with less offense than Blissey, a fragile pokemon that would be hard-pressed to find more than 1-2 turns a match free, a decent special sweeper that's again fragile, and something that will be shredded 50% each stealth rock.
Mind you, I don't really mind Blissey that much, but it doesn't seem fair to pretend that she's perfectly easy to counter.
Meanwhile.... the other stuff you mentioned are so specific :/ So I can use the 4th most overused pokemon in the metagame, because I'm obviously fine with that, just can't stand #1 Blissey. This will deal enough damage so she is forced to use softboiled first turn when she comes back later against a special sweeper. And if I really feel the need for a non-Blissey Cleric, I can use Celebi, Miltank, a Pokemon with less offense than Blissey, a fragile pokemon that would be hard-pressed to find more than 1-2 turns a match free, a decent special sweeper that's again fragile, and something that will be shredded 50% each stealth rock.
Mind you, I don't really mind Blissey that much, but it doesn't seem fair to pretend that she's perfectly easy to counter.
Or, besides these very viable options...use something that isn't crippled by paralysis to the point of being useless (Metagross or Snorlax comes to mind). Or a Rest/Sleep Talker. Or Celebi.
People who play competitive Pokemon have two goals: winning, and having fun. Winning comes before having fun, so it has more worth. Blissey helps you to win a lot, and then any fun you get from the game is just a bonus, and winning also gives you fun. Win/win/win situation.
All I can say is good luck then.
Read the very fucking first page. How is a metagame where Special attackers at least have some kind of COUNTER (one that is easy to switch in on to boot) less balanced than one where a good 4 threats require 3 different Pokemon already?
Thanks for your contribution.
Let's try not to look at the Stealth Rock and Sandstream weak here, okay? You need like 470 HP and max Special Defense (without +nature though) to even do that if Thunderbolt hits absolute minimum damage four times. And be at 100%.
Yeah, I'd rather not rely on any of these for PorygonZ or Azelf. Milotic will only have more Defense than normally if it's statused. If it's paralyzed or asleep, it has a huge chance of failure of what it would have done awake, essentially negating the extra Def because on average it needs more time to do the same job. Poison/Burn makes it lose more HP than the higher Def/SpDef could've made a difference for, especially Toxic. And is Milotic going to deal 100 damage guaranteed to every non-Ghost in the game with its Surf/Ice Beam coverage? Doubt it.
Competitive Pokemon is about winning. If you don't care about winning, go ahead and use inferior choices. But Blissey is the best, so if you want to win you'll likely use Blissey. \
Regice sucks.
Oh, watch my awesome counter.
-Regice only has Ice Beam STAB, and you also get Thunderbolt, but there are better pokes for this. It also gets Seismic Toss, but there are better pokes for this.
-Regice sets don't have room for Aromatherapy, mostly due to the fact he doesn't learn it at all.
-Regice's HP is horrible compared to Blissey's. Everyone already knows how much they need to kill max-max Regice.
-Regice's Atk sucks and it needs to put EVs into an attacking stat just to do damage. Blissey doesn't.
Oh come the fuck on, it has 259 Special Attack with 140 base power, only resisted by Steels, and it can hit SE on every single one of those. THEN you add a 30% boost from Life Orb.
Blissey with max Defense owns. It can do some serious damage without Ice Beam aswell. It has no problems at all since apparently the only problem in the world is not having instant recovery (nevermind Stealth Rock and status, btw).
...this is a SPECIAL wall with TEN BASE DEFENSE taking PHYSICAL hits better than about everything somewhat frail or weak to certain moves, and then it takes SPECIAL hits better than everything in the game.
And in the same thread people like to boast about Regice doing damage while also using max Defense on it? Lol.
Here's a fun fact to consider: EVs into Blissey's Def do more than EVs anywhere else for any Pokemon, at least in the defensive department. And its other 256 EVs can go ANYWHERE. Regice needs max HP to even consider walling, then max Special Attack to hurt things, OR max Def to take physical hits, or max SpDef to try and come close to Blissey (who doesn't have any HP/SpDef yet at this point).
This line is so good I'm not going to comment on your username.
Great Sage hates Umbreon, nobody else does. The thing is, Smogon prefers the best Special walls, and those don't come close. Don't tell me what they can be used for, because I can counter it by saying what they can't be used for. Like, Umbreon cannot even attack.
Somehow substituting Blissey for a much less capable Special wall is acceptable, but using Celebi or Miltank over her just for Heal Bell is too big of a dropdown? Also Rest/Talk, Natural Cure, Limber, Pokemon that don't care, etc.
7 immunities on a team of 6 Pokemon? That would REQUIRE you to use Gengar/Mismagius at first for the first three. About everything else that has more than one immunity has Ground (think Claydol, Bronzong, Skarmory, Gliscor...note that half of these suck at taking Special hits to begin with), which this Ghost already covers, so that's out. So you have to fill 4/6 of the rest of your team with things like Flash Fire and Volt Absorb, which only have a select few Pokemon available for each, plus most of them aren't very good at taking hits outside of their immunity.
It seems not using Blissey is limiting the rest of your team's choice.
The way you keep defending Blissey really makes it seem as if Blissey should be uber, no?
I mean look at it, does it have ANY real downfall at all? Yes, let us switch in a Ground type to get promptly Ice Beamed. Yes, let us use the inferior Hitmonlee or Persian. And why? Because one poke keeps forcing us to use stuff like that.
Blissey is way overpowered. So yeah a Nasty Plot Porygon-Z can 2HKO her. In the meantime said PorygonZ will get TWaved on the Plot turn, making life easier for a counter. Same for Azelf, who can't do anything but going boom.
The fact that it can also wall minor physical attackers (Ergo, non-boosting ones with a base ATK of 120 or below without a fighting move) makes it that much better.
Why is such an abominality allowed? Just because of certain special threats otherwise shredding us apart? Well hello, we don't seem to have troubles with stuff like Garchomp, Metagross or Machamp now do we? Despite their ability to shred apart teams without a physical wall.
I mean look at it, does it have ANY real downfall at all? Yes, let us switch in a Ground type to get promptly Ice Beamed. Yes, let us use the inferior Hitmonlee or Persian. And why? Because one poke keeps forcing us to use stuff like that.
Blissey is way overpowered. So yeah a Nasty Plot Porygon-Z can 2HKO her. In the meantime said PorygonZ will get TWaved on the Plot turn, making life easier for a counter. Same for Azelf, who can't do anything but going boom.
The fact that it can also wall minor physical attackers (Ergo, non-boosting ones with a base ATK of 120 or below without a fighting move) makes it that much better.
Why is such an abominality allowed? Just because of certain special threats otherwise shredding us apart? Well hello, we don't seem to have troubles with stuff like Garchomp, Metagross or Machamp now do we? Despite their ability to shred apart teams without a physical wall.
... not even close. Blissey is counterable on both sides of the attack spectrum by several OU/BL Pokemon.