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Blissey substitutes....
- Thread starter Kabuto Mushi
- Start date
On the average, you will only pursuit 75% of the time. Additionally, Megahorn's accuracy drops to 64% because of the chance of paralysis.
Considering the amount of damage done, I can see if you are choice banded. If you get recoil, I can assume Life Orb. Less damage and I can see if it has a black belt or whatever. I can then switch to T-Tar, Gyarados, or whoever is bulky and/or resists dark and dragon dance up... Or swords dance / calm mind up with Lucario (4x resist dark), Infernape, etc. etc. I'd say overall, its a loss to Heracross, who is now Paralysed. If you are a CS Heracross, you're essentially a CB Heracross with less speed and with 25% less accuracy.
Thats actually pretty sick >_>. Although, if I tried, I can always say that Heracross uses swords dance on the protect... but with T-Wave slowing him down from the switch into Blissey, Swords Dance isn't going to be such a good idea. Regardless, Heracross is at a clear disadvantage when switching into Blissey, unless it is burned / toxic orbed and already statused.
I think thats what i hate most about Blissey, the fucking 'it can theoretically have wish so it can have sets like Obi's' (nothing against Obi its a terrific set). But that i guess comes back to the 'engineer vs. mathemetician' debate someone had quoted in their sig (can't remember who it was, sorry).
At least without protect + wish you could pursuit Blissey with a powerful choice Bander or something; its just that with EVs and her HP the way they are no none-CB pursuit really hurts enough (Max att Ttar pursuit is 49% average vs. a neutral 0HP/252def Blissey). I think WishBliss might make me start sticking to Wi-Fi if its all over competitor/shoddy all the time.
I used to use her all the time when i first started playing advance, but now for some reason i always seem to find myself designing teams that have one or two wishers and various alternative walls - Bronzong with stealth rock to help with specsmence and that kind of thing, or sandstorm + cradily + ice resist.
But the worst thing? For all these arguments, i can't think of one single objective reason not to use her. For all the talk about lack of diversity; if you have blissey on your team instead of 2 or 3 pokes to compensate for not having her, aren't you gaining one or two other slots to try out more pokes for yourself? If you breed an awesome Blissey (sans Wish obviously :naughty: ) can't you spend more time breeding other pokes for that spare slot in your team?
Bollocks. I might have to think about using Blissey again...
However, note that Wish+Protect takes up two moveslots, so Blissey will either have to sacrifice Ice Beam, which makes it switch-in fodder for Ground types like Garchomp, a status move, which makes it bait for just about anything not weak to Ice Beam, or Seismic Toss, which lets anything with Substitute and not weak to Ice switch in easily. Not to mention that Blissey has trouble deciding whether to use Aromatherapy as is.
Just to warn against sounding like a broken record, I'm going to reference Obi's stall team alot for this, because it has 99% of this stuff covered.
If Blissey has Toxic and Flamethrower, it can mess up a lot of things either completely or to the point of making them rest. As already detailed in previous posts, guts users can't do enough to bliss to get through wish/protect without a choice band, which either locks them in to a move to get walled by something else or gets them stuck using pursuit for not enough damage against a blissey that isn't switching and can hurt them with toxic or flamethrower. Its Heatran then its either getting stalled out of PP or can't do enough to hurt Blissey anyway, or a combination of the two.
Fighters that can switch in to anything bliss can do are stuff like Hariyama and Machamp. Both eventually fall to status in some way or another without recovery - Sleep talk Machamp is dealt with by a multitude of things as much as it pains me to say that (Spiritomb, Slowbro etc.). Clefable can switch in and Wish another teammate some health back without giving a shit what Blissey can do to it, but do ya know what else can do that? Your own fucking WishBliss. Lame. Plus whatever you are switchin in to receive the Wish might hate getting toxic'd or hit by flamethrower or just can't do shit to Bliss which is why it wasn't in in the first place. Awesome.
Blissey with only Flamethrower and Toxic to do damage is susceptible to multitudes of Substitute users, like any others without Calm Mind or Seismic Toss. While it is tempting to reference the rest of the team, one must maintain a limited point of view that focuses only on Blissey, because this argument is over Blissey's power. Five good Pokemon can make a lot of stuff useful.
Yeah i guess. But still if you toxic on the switch, alot of sub uses don't last long at all. Raikou for example - awesome against this if switched in on FT, boned if switched in on toxic. Same for Ttar, same for mismagius etc. etc.
On top of that, even when you do switch in something like Metagross into the toxic or ttar into the flamethrower, Blissey can either protect or switch out right away...and because Blissey can switch in on so many things SO easily, you'll have to go through the whole song and dance next time. Eventually chances are you'll predict wrong just on law of averages or you overpredicting or something.
It just annoys me that such a prevelant pokemon seems to have what will become a ubiquitous set on shoddy (and probably competitor too) that to all intents and purposes isn't available to 99%+ of battlers in reality. But anyway this little WishBliss discussion isn't what this thread is about and is becoming a largely circular argument anyway IMO. So, back on topic...
I was just wondering if anyone noticed that Wish+Protect+Toxic was used in ADV on Blissey? Just wondering just curious, if this is too off topic and degrading of it, then disregard.
If people really have a problem using Blissey, don't use it. Does anybody remember back in GSC or even Advance to some extent where Skarmory seemed like it was unbeatable physically? It's the same kind of thing. The more people see Blisseys, the more they realise they have to find some way of countering it. Blissey is by no means perfect or unbeatable, and the existence of Blissey doesn't immediately ruin all attempts at special attacking. If Blissey bothers you that much, use a Mantine or one of the many many things that have good health and special defense, Blissey's not the only one. It's not impossible making a team without it, I've personally never used one because they never fit the team. Don't bash Blissey. By the same token, don't just run one on every team, cause then people will start putting things that can counter it on their teams, reducing its viability. It's a cycle, Blissey usage goes up, things that counter Blissey are used more, then special walls not Blissey get used more to counter the counters, and then the Blissey counter use goes down, and Blissey usage goes up again.
Edit: ok, make it simple. I finally got the whole gist of it.
Accuracy wise, sing is worse.
Close combat is OHKO, even with healthy not banded heracross if its running around 330 attack (if considering no attack boost, with guts 310 would be enough). Even if we are running paralysis. So blissey will use protect. If close combat, gliscor comes in for the kill, if pursuit then there isn't enough damage. I admit, I forgot the importance of protect here.
However, since toxic is used, I think it kinda gives away the kind of blissey as most run sing/twave. So as someone pointed out, it does give some pokes a free switch in. And heracross doesn't really mind toxic anyway if its not on the battlefield stuck doing nothing as it gets a boosted attack from it. Plus, as I pointed out, it doesn't have to be banded to consider a OHKO so Blissey is going to switch which would get a decent pursuit (as wishing would be a KO to stay) even if its not 50% damage (barring a choice item). Or the user himself can switch out after understanding the kind of Blissey he or she is facing.
.... Ok, I can see why this is redundant. This is pretty much exactly the Blissey analysis.
Accuracy wise, sing is worse.
Close combat is OHKO, even with healthy not banded heracross if its running around 330 attack (if considering no attack boost, with guts 310 would be enough). Even if we are running paralysis. So blissey will use protect. If close combat, gliscor comes in for the kill, if pursuit then there isn't enough damage. I admit, I forgot the importance of protect here.
However, since toxic is used, I think it kinda gives away the kind of blissey as most run sing/twave. So as someone pointed out, it does give some pokes a free switch in. And heracross doesn't really mind toxic anyway if its not on the battlefield stuck doing nothing as it gets a boosted attack from it. Plus, as I pointed out, it doesn't have to be banded to consider a OHKO so Blissey is going to switch which would get a decent pursuit (as wishing would be a KO to stay) even if its not 50% damage (barring a choice item). Or the user himself can switch out after understanding the kind of Blissey he or she is facing.
.... Ok, I can see why this is redundant. This is pretty much exactly the Blissey analysis.
Snorlax makes a good special wall due to the fact that it can counter ghosts/psychics alot easier with Crunch OHKOing alot of the time and also makes a somewhat decent sleep absorber