Breloom

[Thorhammer]

can someone tell me why techniloom is so hyped? sure boosted mach punch is a not bad thing but otherwise i don't see why this poke is so hyped.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4293269&postcount=448

Ridiculous power with Mach Punch, plus Low Sweep for incredibly power with two hits.

Still, it's really hard to switch in. I used CB Techniloom on my team briefly, then dropped it when I noticed that I just wasn't getting it to do much of anything. I'm sure I wasn't using it to anywhere near its full potential, but regardless, it has issues. What's particularly notable is that relies on it forcing a switch, which with its pitiful Spe tends to not be that easy, because Mach Punch is the main thing you have to threaten faster stuff with.

Basically, it's a glass cannon. High risk, high payoff if it works right.

 

[Sardiini777]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4293269&postcount=448

Ridiculous power with Mach Punch, plus Low Sweep for incredibly power with two hits.

Still, it's really hard to switch in. I used CB Techniloom on my team briefly, then dropped it when I noticed that I just wasn't getting it to do much of anything. I'm sure I wasn't using it to anywhere near its full potential, but regardless, it has issues. What's particularly notable is that relies on it forcing a switch, which with its pitiful Spe tends to not be that easy, because Mach Punch is the main thing you have to threaten faster stuff with.

Basically, it's a glass cannon. High risk, high payoff if it works right.

thanks for your answer i understand it now ( i haven't played 5th gen in a while) =) although i don't agree with that uber potential argument. it's quite slow it doesn't get too many opportunities to use bullet seed/stone edge/low sweep. but definitely will change the metagame a bit.

 

[PK Gaming]

I've noticed a fair amount of Breloom users neglecting to use Bullet Seed. Bullet Seed is an amazing tool for weakening grass / fight resists into KO range for mach punch. It's not likely that you'll ever pull off SD + Bullet Seed on anything remotely fast, but I've seen users attempt to set up a SD after sporing something, instead of using bullet seed to weaken opposing checks. As strong as he is, Breloom isn't capable of powering through Thundurus-T/Tornadus-T with +2 mach punch punch even after SR. They need some form or residual damage before you attempt to sweep.

TL:DR use unboosted Bullet seed, it's really good.

 

[Thorhammer]

thanks for your answer i understand it now ( i haven't played 5th gen in a while) =) although i don't agree with that uber potential argument. it's quite slow it doesn't get too many opportunities to use bullet seed/stone edge/low sweep. but definitely will change the metagame a bit.

I think he was joking about Breloom being uber.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I've noticed a fair amount of Breloom users neglecting to use Bullet Seed. Bullet Seed is an amazing tool for weakening grass / fight resists into KO range for mach punch. It's not likely that you'll ever pull off SD + Bullet Seed on anything remotely fast, but I've seen users attempt to set up a SD after sporing something, instead of using bullet seed to weaken opposing checks. As strong as he is, Breloom isn't capable of powering through Thundurus-T/Tornadus-T with +2 mach punch punch even after SR. They need some form or residual damage before you attempt to sweep.

TL:DR use unboosted Bullet seed, it's really good.

I can't imagine why anyone would not use Bullet Seed.

 

[HardCore]

I've noticed a fair amount of Breloom users neglecting to use Bullet Seed. Bullet Seed is an amazing tool for weakening grass / fight resists into KO range for mach punch. It's not likely that you'll ever pull off SD + Bullet Seed on anything remotely fast, but I've seen users attempt to set up a SD after sporing something, instead of using bullet seed to weaken opposing checks. As strong as he is, Breloom isn't capable of powering through Thundurus-T/Tornadus-T with +2 mach punch punch even after SR. They need some form or residual damage before you attempt to sweep.

TL:DR use unboosted Bullet seed, it's really good.

I think they aren't using Bullet Seed because not everyone has been playing DW OU where it's a common combo. It will grow eventually as they see how it can nail Pokemon that even resist it after +2 + LO. I Personally use Jolly, but Adamant KO's more with Mach Punch after rocks

 

[Jaetheho]

What are some merits of jolly over adamant? When I peaked like #14 on DW OU, I used him with fight gem (really useful, IMO, If you don't want residual damage stacking up) and with his nature as jolly.

I used jolly because I wanted to outspeed other breloom and faster gliscor. Does it have any merits in OU? I see jolly becoming more popular as the metagame matures

 

[Matthew]

I preferred to run a bulky 24 speed Breloom (I think it outpaced Wobb, and Skarm I think??) and an Adamant nature. It would allow me to come in on an Exca's Earthquake and then proceed to threaten it out with Mach Punch or I could set up with Swords Dance. Loom doesn't really need any investment in Speed, because its Speed is so sub-par.

 

[Jaetheho]

I preferred to run a bulky 24 speed Breloom (I think it outpaced Wobb, and Skarm I think??) and an Adamant nature. It would allow me to come in on an Exca's Earthquake and then proceed to threaten it out with Mach Punch or I could set up with Swords Dance. Loom doesn't really need any investment in Speed, because its Speed is so sub-par.

I like this idea...

The only things that breloom would outspeed with investments are skarmory, toxicroak, jellicent, Heatran, cloyster. In OU, these are the only threats in his speed tier, (closeish). Breloom with maximum speed will not outspeed anything useful, and most things that a max jolly loom will outspeed (I.e. cloyster, Heatran) is better hit with Mach punch. Running max speed doesn't do anything for breloom, and I think the only threat to think about is jellicent, skarmory, and wobbuffet. Other defensive threats in OU are all slower than base 70 and do not invest in speed

 

[Thorhammer]

I preferred to run a bulky 24 speed Breloom (I think it outpaced Wobb, and Skarm I think??) and an Adamant nature. It would allow me to come in on an Exca's Earthquake and then proceed to threaten it out with Mach Punch or I could set up with Swords Dance. Loom doesn't really need any investment in Speed, because its Speed is so sub-par.

Depends. If you're going for Low Sweep, I'd imagine that Speed investment would help you outspeed a lot more.

 

[PK Gaming]

I preferred to run a bulky 24 speed Breloom (I think it outpaced Wobb, and Skarm I think??) and an Adamant nature. It would allow me to come in on an Exca's Earthquake and then proceed to threaten it out with Mach Punch or I could set up with Swords Dance. Loom doesn't really need any investment in Speed, because its Speed is so sub-par.

This. Running speed on Breloom just seems like a weird idea to me... I only run enough speed to guarantee that I outspeed Skarmory. Speed creeping to beat opposing Breloom, I sorta can understand but Giscor? Defensive Gliscor will never outspeed you (imo it shouldn't even run that much speed since it needs all the defense it can get to deal with Terrakion) and offensive Gliscor OHKOes Breloom anyway. The other day someone mentioned that Jolly+ Breloom could speed creep adamant Dragonite and Heatran...Outside of spore I'd think you'd want to steer clear from Dragonite unless you were running stone edge and Tran is already dealt with via mach punch anyway.

The point is, you also miss out on some Mach Punch OHKOes since Jolly Breloom is noticeably weaker than his Adamant counterpart.

 

[preliator]

I think the discussion about Sigilyph as Breloom counter is Kind'a going under here... so what do you guys think about it as a Counter?

Here again the Set:

Sigilyph @ Flame Orb
Magicguard
252HP, 216Def, 40Spd (Bold; +Def, - Atk.)
-Comicpower // (even Calm Mind; maybe...???)
-Roost
-Psycho Shift
-Stored Power // Air Slash

40 Spd EVs are just enaugh to outspeed 252 Spd Adamant Loom.
252 HP & 216 Def for bulk - calc's are listed in a few posts before...

 

[HardCore]

I think the discussion about Sigilyph as Breloom counter is Kind'a going under here... so what do you guys think about it as a Counter?

Here again the Set:

Sigilyph @ Flame Orb
Magicguard
252HP, 216Def, 40Spd (Bold; +Def, - Atk.)
-Comicpower // (even Calm Mind; maybe...???)
-Roost
-Psycho Shift
-Stored Power // Air Slash

40 Spd EVs are just enaugh to outspeed 252 Spd Adamant Loom.
252 HP & 216 Def for bulk - calc's are listed in a few posts before...

Sigiliyph is a good Breloom counter. Unfortunately it was hard enough to pull off Siligyph before and now there are too many threats for Siggy to handle unfortunately. Siggy can outspeed breloom and only fear coming into him at +2.

Calculations: I used Lugia with Lonely nature and lowered the hp ivs to match the set you listed. I also made sure Breloom had Technician, Life Orb, and 1 SD boost (+2).
Jolly Adamant
5 hits: 38.8% - 47.4% | 43.1% - 51.7%
4hits: 31% - 37.9% | 34.5% - 41.4%
3hits: 23.3% - 28.4% | 25.9% - 31%
2hits: 15.5% - 19% | 17.2% - 20.7%

Mach Punch 15.5% - 18.4% | 17.2% - 20.1%

According to the calculations Sigilyph is a great Breloom counter, but I still don't think he will be so great in the meta.

@ bluemon

What are some merits of jolly over adamant? When I peaked like #14 on DW OU, I used him with fight gem (really useful, IMO, If you don't want residual damage stacking up) and with his nature as jolly.

I used jolly because I wanted to outspeed other breloom and faster gliscor. Does it have any merits in OU? I see jolly becoming more popular as the metagame matures

I use jolly just because I see Breloom as a sweeper and nothing more. I run:

Breloom (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Swords Dance

The speed is simply spore more and get to Sword Dancing, however Adamant Life Orb Breloom at +2 OHKOs many Pokemon with just Mach Punch. Although I still would rather have the speed unless I'm running max attack and bulky then I'd use Adamant.

More calculations: All of these calculations are Jolly and Adamant Breloom with Technician, Life Orb, and 1 Sword Dance boost (+2)
Mach Punch. I used Jumpluff with edited stats to fit Tornadus T's stats.

Jolly
Max Hp = 252 hp Evs
100 Defense = Evs

Ninetales Max Hp: 92% - 108.9% | 100 defense Max Hp : 81.4% - 96%
Scizor Max Hp: 73.8% - 87.2% | 100 defense 4 Hp : 81.6% - 96.5%
Jirachi Max Hp: 63.1% - 74.5% | Scarf: 74.8% - 88% | Max hp 56 Defense (250 stat) ( Sp Def Rachi) 59.4% - 70%
Tornadus T: 4 Defense 51.2% - 60.2% | 100 Defense for whatever reason 45.2% - 53.5%

Adamant

Ninetales: Max Hp 4 Def: 101.1% - 119.1% | Max Hp 100 Defense: 89.4% - 105.7%
Scizor: Max Hp 4 Def: 80.8% - 95.3% | 100 Def 4 Hp: 90.1% - 106.4%
Jirachi: Max Hp: 69.3% - 81.9% | Scarf: 81.8% - 96.2% | Special Defensive: 65.3% - 77.2%
Tornadus T: 4 Defense Evs 55.9% - 65.9% | 100 defense Evs for whatever reason 49.8% - 58.9%

 

[ace combat]

I agree that Breloom is a boss, but I think that most people are using him wrong, one of the best ways to use him when you bring him in you spore so that you cripple something, but then you switch out and proceed to weaken the opponents team. When the opponents team is weak enough you can switch him back in and proceed to set up and sweep. That is one of the merits of being Stealth Rock resistant. This was taylor's main stragity that he used when battling with Breloom in DW OU. Often times people carry one or counter to Breloom that can be crippled by spore, but then several offensive checks. It is important to weaken these checks before you attempt to sweep in order to pull off a successful sweep. Remember Breloom is not Double Dance Haxsorus, but does come with the merits of being able to cripple the opponents team and revenge kill threats before sweeping.

 

[giggity69]

Why is Rock Tomb not getting discussion? Tec boosted rock move with a speed drop? Why not? Especially when you consider shit like dragonite and Latios switch in all the time, its nice to slow them down and 2HKO or spore.

 

[jle1076]

SE + a +2 Mach Punch should just fine and its the risk of missing

 

[Tobes]

Rock Tomb probably isn't getting much attention because people really love the standard moveset of Mach Punch / Bullet Seed / Spore / Swords Dance. Deviations from this moveset tend to be rare, because, for the most part, these moves accomplish most everything people want Breloom to accomplish: Sleep something, revenge kill, and sweep late game. Rock Tomb does have merits, but in most cases would only replace Bullet Seed. Generally, people are loathe to part with the other three moves. Spore is easily one of the best moves in the game, Mach Punch gives Breloom its revenge-killing capabilities, and Swords Dance can end games, especially given that Spore is usually a ticket to free set-up. Bullet Seed is really the only move most people will consider ditching, but that does leave you unable to deal notable damage to Gliscor, Slowbro, Hippowdon, and more. It should also be noted that Bullet Seed has much better synergy with Swords Dance than Rock Tomb does. If you don't care about Breloom being able to break through certain walls then Rock Tomb becomes a more appealing option, and Breloom certainly is capable of forcing the switches needed to make good use of Rock Tomb. It's team-dependent really; most physical offensive teams (especially ones that focus on Fighting-types) will have more difficulty with physical walls and will need Bullet Seed, but less linear offensive teams, and ones more susceptible to Thundurus-T or Tornadus-T, could justify Rock Tomb over Bullet Seed.

 

[Matthew]

I just don't run Spore because everyone assumes Loom runs it anyway. The fear of sleep is just as good as sleeping a pokemon.

 

[Sensei_Bobbilytus]

I just don't run Spore because everyone assumes Loom runs it anyway. The fear of sleep is just as good as sleeping a pokemon.

Honestly, me too, on a few sets. It's pretty much a OHKO move with perfect accuracy - Horn Drill and pals area already banned from competitive play, why bother with Spore? It can only effect one dude at a time, so you're essentially giving up a move-slot to force them to play down one guy - which, with plenty of RestTalkers running around, isn't always as bad as it really sounds.
Meanwhile, everyone and their grandma would probably berate you up and down, even if you won, if you ran a Breloom without it - showing just how expected it really is, and how unexpected not running it is. Part of pokemon is being unpredictable and using mind games - they see Breloom, they go through the motions, switch to the obligatory Spore fodder, you set up your strategy while they assume you're trying to save Spore for something worth it, and they don't know better until they see all four moves.

 

[preliator]

I just don't run Spore because everyone assumes Loom runs it anyway. The fear of sleep is just as good as sleeping a pokemon.

I ran this Set some battles ago:

Loom@Leftover.
Jolly Nature.
252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 Hp.
-Sub
-SD
-Bulletseed
-Machpunch

Worked out well.
Jolly over Adamant cuz to outspeed more Mon's Loom wouldn't with Adamant.
Sub over Spore cuz smart player's will predict the obvious Spore and send something in just to take the Spore and become a status absorber. Sub also protects you from status and often let you set up SD.

 

[Scubasteve23]

I think that Poison Heal Breloom will still be better than Technician Breloom. It's just nice knowing that I don't have to worry about taking any status problems.

 

[superbadd]

Both have their merits over the other, but techniloom WILL see more use.

 

[Scubasteve23]

Both have their merits over the other, but techniloom WILL see more use.

Yeah it more than likely will. And it definitely is a plus now that there are two great abilities because not only do you have the option, but your opponent won't immediately know which one to fully expect.

 

[Zarco]

Well Techniloom will replace offensive poison heal Breloom. It's still frail and slow, but priority and wall breaking with bullet seed will help. Still, the bulk up set was te standard at the end of the BW metagame for a reason. Special bulk takes advantage of its great typing for crushing a good chunk of the standard rain and sand teams. I personally use Breloom for its ability to, for example, counter Rotom W midgame.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Yeah it more than likely will. And it definitely is a plus now that there are two great abilities because not only do you have the option, but your opponent won't immediately know which one to fully expect.

Uh, toxic orb Breloom... has toxic orb, so outside of leading with it or come in after your opponent kills something, your opponent immediately knows which one.

That being said that Breloom is more defensively inclined, fitting more onto bulky offensive teams as a great pivot. Both overall play similarly though by attacking outside of sub-seed sets.