I'm good without DMs. I got it from watching the movie
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SPOILERS! Brilliant Diamond & Shining Pearl Data Dumps
- Thread starter DHR-107
- Start date
There is a great post by chlo about what Pokémon gained at the beginning of the thread, but I found little content about what we "lost" in terms of competitive elements. I took the learnsets masterpaste, a list of all the OU/UUBL/UU Pokémon with their most used moves in competitive and Ctrl+F'd as much as I could to see what was missing. That's a decent lot, but I suppose (hope) Home compatibility means that most of those will return in early 2022 as long as they are coded into the game (with in italic those who are not, from a sheet Anubis put together).
Trick
Knock Off, Psyshock
Thunder Punch, Knock Off, High Jump Kick
Teleport
Teleport
Soft-Boiled, Knock Off, Seismic Toss, Psyshock, Teleport
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Dual Wingbeat, Scale Shot, Ice Punch
Fire Fang, Scale Shot
Sludge Wave
Bounce, Power Whip
Heavy Slam
Toxic
Iron Head, Stored Power, Trick, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Aura Sphere
Trick, Mystical Fire, Future Sight, Psyshock, Aura Sphere
Trick, Mystical Fire, Future Sight, Psyshock, Aura Sphere
Superpower, Knock Off, Endeavor
Toxic, Mystical Fire, Overheat
Superpower
Weather Ball
Toxic, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Heat Crash
& 
Defog, Pain Split, Toxic (could not find any information about Hydro Pump, Overheat and other form-exclusive coverage moves. They are not listed in the learnsets, but maybe that's just due to it learning them as it changes forms?)
Dual Wingbeat, Hurricane
Knock Off, Superpower, Bug Bite
Body Press
Psyshock, Toxic, Teleport
Psyshock, Toxic, Teleport, Dragon Tail
Flip Turn, Toxic, Ice Punch
Toxic, Synthesis
Toxic, Toxic Spikes
Superpower, Toxic (Pursuit still dead :[)
Knock Off, Triple Axel, Low Kick
Hurricane, Weather Ball, Heat Wave
Feel free to leave a message on my profile if I made any mistake or overlooked something relevant. That's my first time doing that kind of research and I spended the last two hours and half browsing through pieces of data, so it's likely there is room for improvement in that regard u.u. As a side note, a quick glance at the items image seems to show that a lot of held items post-4G are missing, like the Boots, the Eviolite, the Assault Vest, the Weakness Policy, the Air Balloon, the Rocky Helmet and a couple others, so even more changes in perspective. Cheers!
16/11: For a more complete list, Kris created a script to get all the viable (according to PS! teambuilder) moves lost in BDSP by Pokémon. Here is the result!
Trick Knock Off, Psyshock Thunder Punch, Knock Off, High Jump Kick Teleport Teleport Soft-Boiled, Knock Off, Seismic Toss, Psyshock, Teleport - Dual Wingbeat, Scale Shot, Ice Punch Fire Fang, Scale Shot Sludge Wave Bounce, Power Whip Heavy Slam Toxic Iron Head, Stored Power, Trick, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Aura Sphere Trick, Mystical Fire, Future Sight, Psyshock, Aura Sphere Trick, Mystical Fire, Future Sight, Psyshock, Aura Sphere Superpower, Knock Off, Endeavor Toxic, Mystical Fire, Overheat Superpower Weather Ball Toxic, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Heat Crash & Defog, Pain Split, Toxic (could not find any information about Hydro Pump, Overheat and other form-exclusive coverage moves. They are not listed in the learnsets, but maybe that's just due to it learning them as it changes forms?) Dual Wingbeat, Hurricane Knock Off, Superpower, Bug Bite Body Press Psyshock, Toxic, Teleport Psyshock, Toxic, Teleport, Dragon Tail Flip Turn, Toxic, Ice Punch Toxic, Synthesis Toxic, Toxic Spikes Superpower, Toxic (Pursuit still dead :[) Knock Off, Triple Axel, Low Kick Hurricane, Weather Ball, Heat WaveFeel free to leave a message on my profile if I made any mistake or overlooked something relevant. That's my first time doing that kind of research and I spended the last two hours and half browsing through pieces of data, so it's likely there is room for improvement in that regard u.u. As a side note, a quick glance at the items image seems to show that a lot of held items post-4G are missing, like the Boots, the Eviolite, the Assault Vest, the Weakness Policy, the Air Balloon, the Rocky Helmet and a couple others, so even more changes in perspective. Cheers!
16/11: For a more complete list, Kris created a script to get all the viable (according to PS! teambuilder) moves lost in BDSP by Pokémon. Here is the result!
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There was a compilation of new moves that mons got...
Here, that's it, thanks for linking it.
Garchomp lost Fire Fang for an entirely different reason
It learned it naturally, at level 1, from gens 1-7
Then SWSH turned it into a TM and also made the dumb and inconsistent decision to remove TM moves from Pokemon's level up or breeding move pools.
Because BDSP took the SWSH movepools where applicable, did not carry over the SWSH TM/TR list AND didn't reinstate the "lost" moves back into the moveset here we are
Garchomp not able to get the move it had for over a decade
Hey, that's still enough to prove my point.
Off the top of my head, I assume Nidoking (and queen) are missing Sludge Wave if Gengar is also.
Not necessarly.
Sludge wave was a regular TM learnset for the Nidos, while it was a event only move for Gengar iirc
Jesus, Weavile just getting the absolute shaft. It's already basically unviable in-game on account of not having a strong, physical Ice STAB...and now competitively it's severely nerfed from losing its primary Dark STAB. I mean, damn.
I hope when we do wifi battles, there is the swsh route of being able to choose your background based on gyms, cause wooo mama i need that.I hadn't seen any footage of the Fantina fight until the below shot from PokeLeaks. That is an absolutely breathtaking battle background:
Eh, disagree. Ingame usually Night Slash is just superior to Knock Off due to almost every trainer not holding items.
Sure that's a bit not the case for BDSP as a lot of gym leader actually hold items but Night Slash is still better than Knock Off everywhere else.
I mean the battles are active now, yeah?
Well ,as active as they can be
I also imagine it would be an option for offline battles as well...
Basically I think that if the battle backgrounds were a thing with BDSP, it's something that could be looked into
By 7.5 BP factoring STAB.
Ironically, the one game where it could get the most mileage off Knock...
That's not the point. My point was, it already got screwed in-game by losing its best Ice STAB (Ice Punch) and not getting Icicle Crash to make up for it...and on top of that it loses Knock Off which screws it over on the competitive side. It has nothing to do with Night Slash's merits over Knock Off in-game.
Sneasel in the underground can spawn with Icicle Crash &/or Ice Punch
Weavile doesn't deserve Knock Off, nor being relevant in this metagame too.
Weavile is just a rabbit with a strange head and claws, it should never be in the same league as Bangirasu. We see it normal because GF puts random stats on random mons, but if you look at their design, a human could beat Weavile
What's this?? you dont even need a mon to beat this, i can kill it with a punch to the face
This, this a monster that deserves knock off, hyper beam, black hole eclipse, earthquake, hydropump, fire blast, overgrowing thunder and ultra impact.
You worry too much for a competitive scene that'll be a joke like Let's Go one.
really? can underground mons have hidden abilities and egg moves?
from the level up movepool at least, night slash is lvl 60...in comparison, it got night slash at lvl 35 in the original games. Granted, weavile won't be bad between sd, high speed and ice shard but why not give it night slash at least ;(
if it has icicle crash in underground though, i think there will be a way for it to get sth like night slash or throat chop so not all hope is lost
Really? The Pastebin says this checks out. Color me surprised, truly. I'm looking at it now and comparing it to the SwSh learnsets. It appears Sludge Wave is the only move newly added to their level-up pool, which points to a specific competitive archetype and makes this whole scenario... odd. They made a special exception in defense of Sheer Force Nidoking, but Garchomp is to be denied its historic Fire Fang? All the while, Delcatty is left with no more than three moves to learn ever? And Lopunny is stuck headbutting people?
Kurona earlier referred to Pokémon as the "very strange specific decision" franchise, and I've got to say this might be my limit. I'm ready to concede Pokémon is exactly that. It's like moves and whole species are included or excluded just to be funny anymore.
This is the DP experience. I'd be astonished if it did gain an accessible Ice STAB.
That said, the no-tutors-until-expanded-version shtick was getting old even then. I thought the addition of TRs was supposed to break that cycle, ignoring that Ice Punch is TM04 in SwSh. What happened such that BDSP players are stranded with neither?
Something on the line of "Game developed by different company with several parts of the process done at same time as the mainline game but with little communication between the two teams"
I think people really are underestimating how buffed the Elite Four - especially Cynthia - are, relative to the OG versions. Again, it doesn't mean players can't beat them with moderate effort on the first try, especially with items and overleveling, but that's always the case and always should be the case.
For reference, BDSP Cynthia's initial team offensive mons all hit harder and are faster than the same mons from Platinum Cynthia's REMATCH team (barring Roserade which has 1 point less of Special Attack), which all over 10 levels higher. And that's ignoring items, better movesets, and better AI.
But a better analysis can be done by directly comparing below BDSP Cynthia to her DP version on their first encounters since they have the same mons at the same level. Platinum Cynthia has 30 IVs on all her mons and no EVs, but I'll just use 31 IVs for DPP Cynthia calcs instead as it makes very little difference.
Spiritomb: BDSP hits 41% harder (191 vs 135 SpA) and is 26% more bulky (189 vs 150 HP), plus it has a Sitrus Berry and priority move in Sucker Punch. Roserade: BDSP hits 22% harder (211 vs 173 SpA) and is 36% faster (171 vs 131 Spe), and carries an Expert Belt plus good coverage (Ghost, Fairy, STAB).
Lucario: BDSP hits 24.4% harder (209 vs 168 SpA, although DPP has EQ) and is 36.5% faster (187 vs 137 Spe), plus it packs Nasty Plot and Wise Glasses (so the Special Attack difference is more like 37%) to hit harder.
Milotic: BDSP has 18.4% more HP (251 vs 212) but has 44.35% more PhysDef (179 vs 124), and that's before Flame Orb activates Marvel Scale...oh, and Milotic now has Recover too.
Garchomp: BDSP has 20.8% more Attack (238 vs 197), is 32.5% faster (212 vs 160), and is 3.3% more bulky. Plus, BDSP Garchomp now has Dragon Claw so it can't miss Dragon Rush, can set up with SD, and has a Yache Berry to avoid being OHKO'd by pretty much any ice option.
For reference, BDSP Cynthia's initial team offensive mons all hit harder and are faster than the same mons from Platinum Cynthia's REMATCH team (barring Roserade which has 1 point less of Special Attack), which all over 10 levels higher. And that's ignoring items, better movesets, and better AI.
But a better analysis can be done by directly comparing below BDSP Cynthia to her DP version on their first encounters since they have the same mons at the same level. Platinum Cynthia has 30 IVs on all her mons and no EVs, but I'll just use 31 IVs for DPP Cynthia calcs instead as it makes very little difference.
Spiritomb: BDSP hits 41% harder (191 vs 135 SpA) and is 26% more bulky (189 vs 150 HP), plus it has a Sitrus Berry and priority move in Sucker Punch. Roserade: BDSP hits 22% harder (211 vs 173 SpA) and is 36% faster (171 vs 131 Spe), and carries an Expert Belt plus good coverage (Ghost, Fairy, STAB).
Lucario: BDSP hits 24.4% harder (209 vs 168 SpA, although DPP has EQ) and is 36.5% faster (187 vs 137 Spe), plus it packs Nasty Plot and Wise Glasses (so the Special Attack difference is more like 37%) to hit harder.
Milotic: BDSP has 18.4% more HP (251 vs 212) but has 44.35% more PhysDef (179 vs 124), and that's before Flame Orb activates Marvel Scale...oh, and Milotic now has Recover too.
Garchomp: BDSP has 20.8% more Attack (238 vs 197), is 32.5% faster (212 vs 160), and is 3.3% more bulky. Plus, BDSP Garchomp now has Dragon Claw so it can't miss Dragon Rush, can set up with SD, and has a Yache Berry to avoid being OHKO'd by pretty much any ice option.
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In all seriousness, all we can do is speculate, but we gotta remember that these are 493 mons with movepools apparently ready, and under crunch conditions. A lot of reasons could have overlapped here.
Shame Home compatibility is going to take so long, a lot of these could easily be fixed by just sending them to SwSh real quick and teaching a TR.