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Burning 'Mon [Pre-Viability Update]

Tarontos said:
It's not to make standard stratagem more viable it is to make certain things usable. every toxic ability is cure try worthless this would at least make them usable with out something niche like aroma therapy on your team. And killing momentum. I pesos all just see the starting burn as uneceary because physical attackers are still next to entirely unusable to side of a few things. It was just a suggestion.
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Every Meta invalidates something. You can't blame Inverse Battle for making Steel Types useless and Normals OP or blame BH because it ignores all but the best of the best mons and Megas around.

It's a part of the Meta. And it's best to leave the base of a Meta simple. Any irregularities can be fixed by Bans.

Worst case scenario is which the Meta is found to be very unbalanced, it will sink in usage and discussion. Simple as that.
 
Elveman said:
Available on Russian Pokemon Community Showdown server! http://78.24.219.229.psim.us/
It's not registered though, so no replays =(
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Cool! If people want to give it a try, I'd be glad to hear about it -- even if there are no replays. Hopefully we can get it on a registered server soon...
Emerald Master said:
unburden users can get double speed easily simply by holding a lum berry
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Holy shit, that would be really good...but looking up Unburden users, they're either already so fast already, or Physical and thus trash. Funnily enough the best user appears to be...Drifblim. Dammit Drifblim! I didn't design this meta around you, I promise! I guess basic Sceptile is okay if 120 base is 2slow4u.
 
Question: Does the burn reapply itself after everything else in the turn? If so, you could still use Heal Bell or Aromatherapy to get Poison Heal up.

Jajoken said:
Cool! If people want to give it a try, I'd be glad to hear about it -- even if there are no replays. Hopefully we can get it on a registered server soon...

Holy shit, that would be really good...but looking up Unburden users, they're either already so fast already, or Physical and thus trash. Funnily enough the best user appears to be...Drifblim. Dammit Drifblim! I didn't design this meta around you, I promise! I guess basic Sceptile is okay if 120 base is 2slow4u.
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Well, you could invest purely in Sceptile's HP and Special Attack then.
 
The Burn is applied as the very last thing in turn order, so yes Heal Bell/Aromatherapy can be used to let a Toxic Orb trigger on a Poison Heal abuser.
 
Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- Protect

This set was pretty popular while ago for ability to 2-shot almost everything in Uber tier with amazing 200 HP Seismic Toss. Façade instead of Crunch, while forgoing ability to hit Ghosts, allows to abuse this nasty burn to get nice base 125 Atk Parental Bond-boosted 140 BP STAB. This thing hits really HARD so EVs can be transferred from Attack to something else, i guess.
The only problem is that Burn gives 1/4 of total HP damage output for 2 turns and Wish heals 1/2 of total HP so I don't really know if this can be considered "effective".
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 208-247 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Someone brought up Diggersby earlier. I thought of a set that might prove effective:
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Diggersby @ Silk Scarf/Leftovers
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Swords Dance
- Spikes
- Knock Off/Super Fang

Now that every attack but Facade is useless, there's finally a reason to use Spikes Diggersby! Facade is to punch holes through everything that doesn't resist it, while Swords Dance is for the off-chance that you get a chance to sweep. You can set up a layer of Spikes if you predict a switch into something that can handle Facade, while Knock Off is mostly for utility and to hit Ghosts. If you ain't afraid of no Ghost, Super Fang can punish Rock and Steel types instead, as it isn't weakened by Burn. Silk Scarf is the best option to boost Facade, while Leftovers will allow you to stick around longer to set up more layers. The choice between Adamant and Jolly is yours, but Jolly Diggersby doesn't outspeed a whole lot.

I foresee Spike stacking to prove an effective strategy, racking up a bunch of extra damage as Burn ticks away. If you want a more offensive pick than Klefki, Diggersby is probably your best choice (competing with Greninja).

EDIT: +2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 201-237 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

I'm sorry, did you want to Defog those Spikes?
 
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While it's probably not all that great, Doublade has a niche in forcing Facade users out (at least from full health), -ate or otherwise:

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 52-62 (16.1 - 19.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after burn damage
0 Atk burned Doublade Gyro Ball (96 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 103-123 (33.5 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Yes, even burned, Doublade does more with Gyro Ball than Flash Cannon)
Altaria can 2HKO at +3, but with Altaria at +1 Speed, Gyro Ball is 2HKOing. Altaria cannot set up on Doublade, nor can it forego setup. I guess it can just sit there and Roost if it has no boosts, but that gives you an opening to send in something to kill it.

Pinsir is a bit more troublesome, as it only needs to hit +2 to 2HKO...:
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 133-157 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
0 Atk burned Doublade Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 102-120 (37.6 - 44.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
... but Doublade can probably handle it.

Glalie is irrelevant:
252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 55-66 (17 - 20.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after burn damage
0 Atk burned Doublade Gyro Ball (96 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Glalie: 135-159 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

And anything trying to abuse a Normal-type Facade will be laughed at. Doublade's Facade 2HKOs Diggersby, while Diggersby can't claim the same, even after Knocking Off Doublade's Eviolite -- and that's the only mono-Normal attacker that can really touch it.

So yeah, run this with a special wall and Wish support (Chansey comes to mind; so does Clefable) and you should be able to handle Facades headed your way. Is this worth a whole Pokemon? I don't know.
 
FlameUser64 said:
Question: Does the burn reapply itself after everything else in the turn? If so, you could still use Heal Bell or Aromatherapy to get Poison Heal up.
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If this works like that, then something like

Sawsbuck @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Horn Leech
- Jump Kick
- Aromatherapy

could work maybe? It doesn't directly benefit from Toxic Orb like Poison Heal mons but it beats being Burned and its the best one I found due to STAB on Facade, decent offensive stats, and Horn Leech letting it heal back some toxic damage.
 
Flying Types Rule! said:
I just want to note here that Heatproof seems sort of interesting here. A Bronzong with lefties would take no damage from the burn.
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Good point -- but like several good abilities in this metagame, I really wish it had better distribution. Also, people will instantly know that you don't have Levitate, though I guess Bronzong doesn't have to worry about Earthquake from anyone but Guts users.
 
Seconding the lament of a shitty distribution for Heatproof. Even with it, I can't imagine that Bronzong would have a real niche in this meta... especially with no reliable recovery.

And as for the Sawsbuck set up there, I dunno. It seems like that turn of setup could be better used doing just about anything with one of your Guts mons, which require no setup and get an item slot to work with. They don't have recovery, no, but I think over time they'll outdamage Sawsbuck over time.

Really, if you're running Aromatherapy on your team, it should be to set up Poison Heal, whose advantage over the baseline is only accentuated here. And considering that Gliscor looks like it can stall out a lot of the attackers in this meta (or at least get good indirect scratch damage on them), this might actually be a good use of a moveslot. It could perhaps run Substitute+Protect+Roost+Acrobatics (to hit most Guts users super-effectively). Still destroyed by the blimp, though.
 
Akumeoy said:
Really, if you're running Aromatherapy on your team, it should be to set up Poison Heal, whose advantage over the baseline is only accentuated here. And considering that Gliscor looks like it can stall out a lot of the attackers in this meta (or at least get good indirect scratch damage on them), this might actually be a good use of a moveslot. It could perhaps run Substitute+Protect+Roost+Acrobatics (to hit most Guts users super-effectively). Still destroyed by the blimp, though.
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this meta revolves around the blimp
 
Hm, I can see setting up Gliscor for a Poison Heal being an effective strategy using something like Heal Bell Chansey. I can see a stall team using something like Chansey / Gliscor / Cofag / Heatran or some other defensive Fire-type (something that can handle Hex, which shouldn't be too hard. Heatran is a good choice imho since it can't be Toxiced by said Ghosts who might want to Toxic da fire-types. TWave still sucks though) / Groudon / ??? (Defensive Zekrom :DD)
 
The Reptile said:
Hm, I can see setting up Gliscor for a Poison Heal being an effective strategy using something like Heal Bell Chansey. I can see a stall team using something like Chansey / Gliscor / Cofag / Heatran or some other defensive Fire-type (something that can handle Hex, which shouldn't be too hard. Heatran is a good choice imho since it can't be Toxiced by said Ghosts who might want to Toxic da fire-types. TWave still sucks though) / Groudon / ??? (Defensive Zekrom :DD)
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Honestly Chansey is already a full stop for Drifblim and any other Ghosts, and HP Fighting still does a number to Sp. Def Heatran. Still nice to have a wall that doesn't take passive damage, but lack of recovery is disappointing...Arcanine might be cool. Groudon even gives it a buff in that Morning Sun restores a ton and Flare Blitz will be doing a decent amount even without investment.
 
I just read the OP again and it mentions you wanted it to be playable on Aqua. It's been playable for a while there (Though half of the time the battles crash, in that case contact me and I'll reset server). I just forgot to tell you. Tagging Jajoken as he owns the metagame.

Also I've been around :c
 
Snaquaza said:
I just read the OP again and it mentions you wanted it to be playable on Aqua. It's been playable for a while there (Though half of the time the battles crash, in that case contact me and I'll reset server). I just forgot to tell you. Tagging Jajoken as he owns the metagame.

Also I've been around :c
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Great! I checked it recently and didn't see it...huh. Also: I put that in the OP a while ago when you hadn't posted for a few days. :P

PLAY IT GUYS! SAVE REPLAYS! DON'T LEAVE GHOUL KING HANGING!
 
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Heracross @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Earthquake
- Facade/Knock Off

Scarfcross is a massive threat that you should definitely be prepared for. It's just such a good cleaner -- once Ghosts are out of the way, you can just spam Close Combat and Facade to plow through even a moderately weakened team. Physical walls aren't even a problem:

252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 178-211 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 178-211 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage

Of course, Talonflame eats stags like this guy for breakfast, so be sure to keep up Stealth Rock pressure to wear it down.
 
I finally updated the Sets and Threats section in the OP with the sets people have posted, in order of appearance! If you'd like to be included...post some sets!

(Yeah this is just an excuse to bump the thread. Sue me.)
 
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