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dump of my notable bw teams for the year + i talk about defiant thundurus specifically. the defiant thundurus sets on pastes have changed a bit from the ones in replays as i began to favor LO + Crunch over Fighting Gem + Sky Drop


Weatherless Moth Balance - DPL7 Week 4 vs DaWoblefet / BW Cup vs Yoda2798

The idea going into the match-up was I generally wanted to be instantly advantageous against the Amoonguss balance teams which I was highly putting DaWoblefet on. At the same time, I wanted to make sure that I had strong answers against Skymin as I recognized that my own usage history can make it look like I'm vulnerable to it. Quiver Dance Volcarona fits within both ideas as it's a great balance breaker and can render Shaymin-S moot at +1. Defiant Thundurus and Expert Belt Cresselia are also attempts at beating balance; the former is handy for getting surprise quick damage on Tyranitar and Heatran, while Cresselia can make sure Amoonguss, Metagross, and Hitmontop can never get too out of hand. Scarf Kyurem-B is there to make sure Scarf Landorus-T is invalidated, and it's also nice for keeping Latios at bay. Jellicent and Amoonguss round the team out as a defensive duo that can generally deal with everything, in particular being key for the match-up against rain; while I do have Cresselia, it's not as reliable defensively due to how its EVswere invested. I typically never use weatherless in BW DOU and this might be the only team I have of the sort within the past three years, but I'd say this is a pretty solid attempt.

Scarf Tyranitar + Keldeo + SD Scizor - DPL7 Finals vs DaWoblefet

This one was also for DaWoblefet but now for the DPL finals matchup. While I still had the balance match-up in mind as it really did feel like DaWoblefet's style, this time I was more wary of how I deal with Kyurem-B on either of its two better sets. I went with SD Scizor, again another set-up attacker as they're good breakers against balance, but also because it's inherently good against a lot of balance pieces such as Latios, Metagross, Cresselia, TTar, and Amoonguss. Keldeo is a curious addition as it's not really common, but I really like it as it can reliably decimate Heatran while still putting heavy pressure on KB and TTar (for Latios); Latios is used in the same vein, except Draco Meteor destroys everything instead. Choice Scarf Tyranitar is there to make sure opposing Latios don't become too problematic, as it's still capable of just nabbing one every time. I'm using fast bulky Thundurus in order to maximize my range in stuff I can Sky Drop, which can be really handy in getting surprise unpins on my attackers. I genuinely like this team as I feel like it's a good attempt at maximizing Scizor while not being too exposed by Heatran and Jellicent.

The Six but it's Defiant Thundurus - BW Cup vs Yoda2798

It's the six. But it has Defiant Thundurus. I talk about Defiant Thundurus specifically later on this post, but in the context of this team I don't think it actually needs Prankster Thunder Wave as the rain match-up isn't that bad, considering it has Jellicent, Latios, and Tyranitar. What the team does appreciate, however, is more aggressive options in dealing with Latios, Tyranitar, Kyurem-B, etc..--iThundurus's handy for taking advantage of what would generally be average matchups into surprisingly daunting pressure and pins, which in turn helps me in positioning with my other 5 which are quite in dealing with a broad range of stuff by themselves already. The rest are pretty simple as they are essentially the default sets.


I have been using Defiant Thundurus throughout DPL and Classic and I can honestly say that it's a real valid set for BW DOU. It's been a generally effective pick from my experience and is basically not a meme.

Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Protect
Thundurus (M) @ Fighting Gem
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Superpower
- Sky Drop
- Protect

The idea with this set when I first tried it out is that Prankster Thundurus typically baits out stuff like Tyranitar and Heatran, stuff which this particular set can obliterate. Teams usually don't want their offensive stuff Thunder Waved, so they usually send out their slow, bulky stuff which this set can more effectively punish with significant damage. As Prankster Thundurus and Defiant Thundurus essentially have to be dealt with in different ways and with different checks, I wanted to take advantage of this fact by using it to make quick picks, opening up opportunities for other guys; this kind of surprise element for me was valuable, especially since DPL was only a best-of-1.

Still, this set had consistency even with it being within my meta. It's strikingly effective at keeping a lot of key threats at bay with pure offensive pressure, owing to the fact that it's faster than Latios and how its coverage lets it hit a lot of key Pokemon in the metagame super effectively. Wild Charge hits hard enough neutrally as LO Thundurus still has the raw attack to be respectable and it notably hits Jellicent for SE. Superpower decimates TTar and takes a fat chunk out of KB and Heatran. Crunch is literally only for Latios but this is still valuable as Latios is one of the most daunting threats in BW DOU and is almost always in every non-rain team. All of the threats I mentioned here are Tier 1 threats. I've found that teams often just resort to using Intimidate when it comes to dealing with physical attackers, which this set punishes; as long as Thundurus has teammates that can keep Landorus-T from Rock Sliding e.g. Wide Guard Hitmontop, Scarf Kyurem-B, then it can basically wreak havoc on most opposing balance teams.

While it does have Defiant as an ability, a lot of this set's value isn't even about punishing Intimidate. Rather, it moreso comes from how it has the super effective coverage on a lot of key targets in the metagame on top of the fact that it can be a bit of a puzzle to tell apart whether a team has Prankster or Defiant from preview. Defiant Thundurus isn't necessarily a strong (physical) attacker in its own right, but it nevertheless is quite effective, this effectiveness being a product of the metagame. As long as balance teams still look like they usually do, this set should still be quite effective and I definitely recommend people give it a try if an opportunity to play BW DOU comes around.


Demonstrably so
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Some thoughts on how the BW metagame has shifted over the past few tournaments:

SMB once again shatters the idea of BW being an inconsistent tier with another dominant performance. Only losing a single game in all of BW Cup and only one BW game in Classic Finals, coupled with a string of top 4 placements in past years, SMB has pushed the BW metagame in different ways with his impact in both play and teambuilding. SMB has carved out new niches in Pokemon, such as Choice Scarf Kyurem-B or offensive Ghost Gem Jellicent, in addition to actually building teams. A good player who is able to create independently viable teams is going to do well, and I think a player wise to metagame trends should be analyzing what SMB is doing in BW if they want to succeed in the tier.

Stagnant Rain
Very little has come by way of pushing rain forward in the metagame, with many players in the most recent BW Cup opting to recycle old builds of SMB rain (Genies + Sub Lefties Metagross + Breloom), double Grass rain, or tried and true Whitewater. Seeing only around a 50% winrate overall, it also saw consistently less usage the later the rounds became. Rain isn't bad or anything, but the counterplay available with traditional good BW Pokemon, when combined with experience fighting those same teams multiple times, leads me to rate rain less favorably.

The Rise of Sand teams
Most BW players will agree that Thundurus is one of the best, if not the best mon in the tier. Excadrill has always been floated as a solid option to check Thundurus, being Thunder Wave immune itself. Other metagame trends, such as Metagross's rise in popularity, have been favorable for Excadrill; Excadrill can destroy it with a Life Orb-boosted Earthquake and takes little in return. Heatran's popularity has gone down too, the traditional Substitute Leftovers set splitting for usage with Shuca Berry to combat non-STAB Ground-type attacks. But Excadrill likes Shuca Berry a lot more, since its Earthquake is still able to KO reliably after Stealth Rock and can avoid situations where Heatran with a Sub actually threatens Excadrill. Sand cores see additional modifications with the addition of Thunder Wave Cresselia, which gives Tyranitar Speed control without making it awkward for Excadrill; Cresselia sometimes even goes so far on these teams as to run Timid Nature to outpace Adamant Landorus-T. Cresselia dealing heavy damage to the two major Intimidate Pokemon in the tier, Landorus-T and Hitmontop, gives a natural fit on these teams.

Thundurus's new tool Sky Drop initially captivated my interest quite a lot; one combo I really liked was to EV Thundurus faster than Adamant Landorus-T to combo things like Sky Drop -> rocks and then drop down the target -> U-turn (like against Cresselia). Doing it this way also let you run HP Ice to snipe some Lando; recall that most Landorus-T should be running Adamant for the Stone Edge roll on Thundurus. However, I think that Sky Drop's utility, while cool, is a real moveset cost in a lot of matchups. You always have Thunderbolt and Thunder Wave, and picking just 2 of Thunder Wave / Taunt / HP Ice / Protect was hard enough as it is. I think it's fairly telling that Memoric's physical Thundurus set listed above has Sky Drop merely as an option, where it might seem more natural with the investment given to Thundurus's attack.

General trends and thoughts
  • KyleCole's revival of bulky Conkeldurr has been very interesting to me; drawing on inspiration from Arash Ommati's 2013 Worlds team, a bulky Sitrus Berry set with Drain Punch can let Conkeldurr destroy certain Genie/Heatran builds that would ordinarily rely on it chipping itself with Life Orb recoil.
  • Jellicent is not going anywhere, but the metagame has adjusted well to it. Gone are the days where you can kill one Pokemon and have Jellicent Recover stall the rest. Jellicent sometimes needs to offer more than just the ability to set Trick Room and burn things.
  • Choice Scarf Dragon-types are super cool and super good. Scarf cube and Scarf Latios both can outspeed Landorus-T for a crucial Ice Beam KO and can Draco Meteor other faster Dragon-types. While they aren't fast enough to outpace Kingdra, they serve as solid revenge killers for a great chunk of the metagame, while offering ambiguity if comparing against a more traditional Choice Band cube or Dragon Gem Latios set.
  • Latios's reclaiming of Hidden Power has really let it rise to dominance. Hidden Power Ground Latios is what's caused most Heatran to retreat from their old Substitute habits, as a Pokemon they used to wall now cleanly 2HKOs it and takes little from Heat Wave to boot. Tailwind is still a great slash for Speed control; you can even drop Psychic if you're content Dracoing the things Psychic would ordinarily hit.
A couple newer teams

The first sample team currently offered in BW (the Latios Landorus-T Sub Metagross balance team) was by far one of my favorite BW teams, and I don't think I've ever really quite found a suitable replacement that feels as dominant while respecting current metagame trends. I think it's telling that during Classic, instead of picking one of my own builds vs umbry, I rolled up with SMB rain! Still, here's a couple teams I've been enjoying as of late:

:landorus-therian: / :thundurus: / :kyurem-black: / :metagross: / :jellicent: / :latios:

In a shocking turn of events, a team that contains 5/6 of the previously mentioned team I liked transferred well to another team I liked! marilli's usage of Earthquake Metagross really appealed to me; Metagross has decent enough attack where EQ chip matters on a ton of Pokemon, and you can easily turn from losing to Heatran to beating it with the right plays. The logic is comparable to the transition of Hidden Power Ground on Latios.

:latios: / :landorus-therian: / :hitmontop: / :gothitelle: / :suicune: / :heatran:

Similar to this bulky team originally built by marilli. Swaps Chansey for a Scarf Trick Latios to lock down support Pokemon and enable a Suicune setup. I like leading Latios + Landorus-T to have the option of Scarf Trick + U-turn into Gothitelle, or to potentially catch a Scarf cube by surprise. Latios can be given additional Speed to actually outpace all Scarf cubes if that's something that concerns you (it currently just outpaces neutral Nature Scarf Genesect).


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Now that my DPL and a few other's seasons are over, I'm gonna go ahead and do a team dump from what I used for the 5 weeks of DPL. Was a really fun season with the Squirtles, but sadly wasn't in the cards for playoffs this season.

Week 1: vs Crunchman

Crunch wasn't as versed in BW so I didn't have much of an idea what to expect here as far as what he might bring. From the few replays I saw he had, Volcarona felt like a decent enough bring especially looking at the fact that I hadn't brought Volcarona to a tournament game for a long while. This ended up bring the final build Memo and I slapped together. I probably regret the Detect on Scarfty instead of Taunt, but other that I stand by the team choices here pretty well. Rotom-W just felt like the correct choice since I didn't want to stack too many weaknesses and wanted a decent option for the possible Rain match up. The team was admittedly pretty weak to Skymin, but I also didn't imagine that was gonna be a Pokemon on the radar of a less experienced BW player. Team felt fine for the player match up, but definitely not one of our stronger builds imo

The game felt pretty favorable as long I managed to maintain health on Rotom-W to help check the Suicune. Getting the burn on the Lando-T also helped neutralize it pretty well for me, especially with it being one of his main ways of dealing damage outside of residual damage dealt from Suicune and Chansey. 1-0

Week 2: 1649727127890.png1649727147445.png vs Human

Again Enosh I wasn't too sure what to bring except that I wanted a bulky Water with Toxic. We toyed around with Gastrodon builds, but I never found something I was satisfied with so we built and ended up with what he had. Team was pretty standard outside of HH Latios and Sub for Excadrill.

The game was pretty straightforward after I was kind of ballsy turn 1 with going for Stealth Rocks and Sub in the face of his Excadrill, but I knew worst case scenario here was him getting his attack of breaking my sub but Stealth Rocks felt they were gonna take me a long way this game with the passive damage in tandem with the rest of the team dishing out damage. From the turn 1 play I felt in the driver seat the rest of the game. The 2 misses on Thundurus and burn on the Sub Kyu-B kind of cemented things up and just let me out value the rest of his team. 2-0

Week 3: vs Checkmater

Check always felt like he favored more balance tempo styled teams so I wanted to build a strong offensive 6 that could help break things apart before getting out of hand. I knew I wanted to try busting out Specs Gothitelle here not only as a potential surprise factor, but I felt it could be potentially strong against Chansey and Ferrothorn which had seemed to be rising a bit in popularity. The initial build of the team had Fighting Gem Terrakion over Band Kyu-B, but we kind of just decided it was ultimately a win more Pokemon as it only stacked strengths of the current team instead of diversifying win conditions.

The match up ending up being incredibly favorable, being especially happy to see that Ferrothorn knowing I could snipe it off with Gothitelle. But the way the game ended up playing out, Scizor was just way too much to handle as it honestly felt it wasn't accounted for in building at all. After the lead and letting myself get so much advantage with Swords Dance, I'm really not sure how much better Check could've played this game. Was just a really favorable match up. 3-0

Week 4: 1649728009455.png1649728031466.png1649728074849.png vs DaWoblefet

I knew I wanted to bring something different vs Wob this DPL, and thankfully this is where having Memoric around was gonna help me a lot. I said something about wanting to bring Conkeldurr TR this week, and I was basically pasted this team. I did make a few changes, but I felt pretty good with this balls to the walls style TR for the week.

The team ended up being a great choice in team preview, but looking back on the initial TR turns I had I'm really not happy with how loose I played with letting my Pokemon get whittled down in health. Ended up still playing it down to a close end game that just ended things with a crucial Heat Wave miss that prevented the 2v1 scenario I wanted, but I'd still chalk this one up to sloppy play I think. 3-1

Week 5: 1649728130399.png1649728196067.png1649728207312.png1649728229175.png1649728237109.png vs Frania

This was definitely not the team I was gonna go with initially, but I didn't have a ton of time to prep this week. Ended up loading up with a team that Sam threw together in a past DPL on the Church that I hadn't used before. Team felt solid enough, and let me possibly catch Frania the same way I tried to get Check but never got the chance to. Zapdos was definitely a risky choice, but the sponginess of the Pokemon just made it more appealing over something like Thundurus or Rotom-W.

Loading into the game, the team felt like a fine choice if I could manage to get the Metagross out of the way early. Lando-T was kind of hurting my chances to do it with Excadrill or Tyranitar, so I wanted to try for as aggressive of a lead as possibly. As long as there wasn't an Occa Berry in my way, I felt really good with getting Metagross out of the way barring a critical hit on Latios. Seeing no Protect, Metagross got cleared off the field from the double attack and the game felt really great after that turn. I traded Spore with my Amoonguss, but he ended being Lum so I was in an awkward spot until I saw the Spore was put into my own Amoonguss. Wasn't a huge deal to me, but after some positioning Amoonguss ended up getting a 1 turn wake as well which just ended up cementing my position to win the game. 4-1

Overall happy with how the season went and hope more people can give BW a try instead of just spamming Mono-Dragon or white water when put in the position to play. I definitely tried to be as varied as possible in team choices to make sure I wasn't falling into abusable habits like I tend to build into, but this style definitely doesn't always thrive in non-team tour environments. Some of these teams are likely still fine choices for average tournament play, but do keep in mind some of these comps were built with specific builds and styles in mind. Thanks for your time reading and I hope you learned something from all this!

Shoutouts to Squirtles, and specifically Memoric for believing in me and drafting me this year. Was definitely a fun time building and conversing with all of you. Replays can all be found in this thread here linked in the sprites (Yoda edit)
Last edited by a moderator:


It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
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Had a good time playing for DPL and figured I'd also post my thoughts in the thread. I ended up having (as forewarned) less time due to things opening back up but I still managed a good number of team iterations (every team was original!) and test matches most weeks. Special thanks to people who spent time to test with me, including shaian, sunrose, yoda2798, JRL, qsns, kylecole, DaWob, Crunchman, and many others. Of course thanks for drafting me, maybe I will be back next year !

Before I talk about the weeks, here are some sets and cores I feel are interesting or useful

Thundurus (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 204 SpD / 52 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
This is actually a set I used last DPL. When using Thundurus as part of a defensive component, Volt Switch gives you a lot of potential momentum especially on early turns. There are a lot of contexts/leads where it's obvious the opposing landot is going to U-turn, and this can give you some serious momentum. It can make lategames and the matchup vs Stealth Rocks tougher, but I run Volt about 60% of the time these days.

:bw/conkeldurr: :bw/scizor:
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 140 HP / 248 Atk / 116 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hammer Arm
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
- Wide Guard

Scizor @ Steel Gem
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Swords Dance
- Protect

I'm partially not very good at using hitmontop and also partially don't like it as much, but I do like this Scizor+Conkeldurr core. Having double-priority is really nice and also I think the only way I could find to make HO really work. I used this core twice - once in week 2 and once in week 4 - big fan overall. Scizor compliments Conk by strongly threatening stuff like Latios/Torn. Obviously be conscious of intimidate.

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Pulse
- Heal Bell

Heal bell chansey I feel is quite useful. One can run a lot more speed just for faster heal pulse and heal bell if you like, since there are a good number of midrange threats in the speed bracket 136-218 and the HP isn't so important since you already have a lot of it. Having status clearing is super mainly against Thundurus since it lets you play more agressively with things like Kingdra/Latios. It's also nice against toxic and for substitute partners, as some teams' plans against Kyube/Heatran/Metagross is to status it and fight its partner. Also nice interactions with Rest :)

Shaymin-Sky @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Healing Wish
- Protect

Similar philosophy as Pulse+Bell Chansey, believe it or not. For a number of bulky threats like Kyube/Tran/Metagross/Ttar if it goes to 40% or below (esp if statused) people will dismiss it in their game plan, so bringing it back can be quite nice.

Onto the weeks!
Week 1 vs DaWoblefet
:cresselia: :landorus-therian: :thundurus: :heatran: :kyurem-black: :shaymin-sky:
Going into this week I was rather nervous as DaWob is ofc a strong opponent and I'd been out of the doubles tournaments scene for a good while. The idea behind this team was to utilize Twave + Substitute, a combination that [redacted] talked about in XY for a team with Heatran. It also has the Shaymin-Sky set I mentioned above. As far as the week went, I didn't realize that the team was an importable in the thread (even though Yoda had posted it before) and completely didn't see scarf Thund coming. That + I also thought it was HP Ice when it was HP Flying. Sunny Day + knowing I was Sunny Day, and also knowing I was Tbolt when I think DaWob probably expected Volt Switch almost managed to bring it back but ultimately making risky plays turn after another caught me with an EPower on my Heatran.

Week 2 vs Crunchman
:kyurem-black: :conkeldurr: :scizor: :thundurus: :chansey: :landorus-therian:
I practiced with Crunchman a lot before DPL started and always had a good mileage out of more bulky teams/substitute wincons vs him. This one started out with a Kyube+Chansey core which compliment each other nicely, but then became more HO. With Memoric's Thundurus set to snipe Latios, I ended up being pretty happy with this team. Not much to say about the replay other than Chansey OP, and Thundurus gave a ton of mileage.

Week 3 vs Biosci
:landorus-therian: :chansey: :gothitelle: :cresselia: :ferrothorn: :latios:
I was feeling good off the Chansey from last week and went through a ton of iterations of tricktrapping teams, with variants of Cune, Cresselia, Ferrothorn. I actually really liked this and another team that I had, but ultimately decided on this team since it did better in testing. Yoda actually brought Biosci's exact 6 to test vs me, and it also had perish song on the Politoed which made the matchup basically impossible combined with Goth dodging trapping. While we were testing I was doing amazing against every other team other than that one, so I just figured I wouldn't see it and the team would go fine - imagine my reaction when I loaded into my match. Basically the rain lead is way too brutal unless I led what I did, which got abused by Scizor+Amoonguss. Turns out Biosci's sets were different, so maybe it was winnable, if by a long shot. Sad to lose my inexplicably long streak of beating Biosci in tournaments (I think 4 or 5 now??) but oh well.

Week 4 vs Frania
:marowak: :politoed: :kingdra: :scizor: :conkeldurr: :shaymin-sky:
This team started out as a Raichu rain team (inspired by shay) and was helped into some bulkier and more defensive by JRL. JRL wanted to put hitmontop and amoonguss, but I felt more comfortable using conk and shaymin-sky. This week I was actually in Israel and played on my phone so I didn't have that much time to test but I managed to fit in one or two test matches vs Crunchman which made me feel Shaymin-Sky was better. For the game itself the Kyube flinch + some Hydro hits ended up being quite nice, though I think only the first 2 or 3 Hydros were really crucial. I thought Scizor sweeping was a shoe-in on turn 2 but HP Fire gave me a run for my money. Knowing I was specs (and Frania ofc not knowing) really saved me for the turn 2/3 sequence.

Week 5 vs Human
:conkeldurr: :landorus-therian: :thundurus: :kyurem-black: :metagross: :gastrodon:
I really wanted to run some like Choice band Explosion Trick Azelf squad for this week but it really wasn't working very well and I ended up sticking with something standard. This was one of the first teams I built in March before DPL with 3 sitrus berries and lots of absorption of hits. The Kyube set I changed via JRL's suggestion - I never liked Dragon Claw Scarf-Kyube anyways. As far as the game itself I think I'd seen the team somewhere before, but wasn't really sure. I still don't know if it was scarf or sash Mamoswine, but being scarf myself helped the turn 1 predictions and paralyzing his Tornadus was really valuable. Then it was just a matter of sleep-sacking into using sub Metagross and dancing around Hydreigon. Crit U-turn was lucky but truthfully I think I still had it - you can be the judge if you like.

All in all a fun DPL and had a good run! As a parting note I will say that you should always run as *little* speed as you can get away with on your scarf LandoT so you can scout opposing scarf LandoT while hiding your own.
DPL was an amazing experience. Thank you Tenzai for giving me the opportunity to play against some of the best players around.
It sucks that we couldn't pull out the win but that gives me more motivation to strengthen my game and do better next year!
Here are the teams I used in BW for DPL!

W4 vs Human
:bw/bisharp: :bw/deoxys-attack: :bw/volcarona: :bw/kingdra: :bw/thundurus: :bw/conkeldurr:
I didn't know what I wanted to use vs enosh but deosharp was something that got brought up during w1 so I decided to use it myself.
The rest of the mons were brought to deal with amoon (thundy+volcarona) and goth rain (timid kingdra+bisharp) since enosh loves using that archetype. Originally, I had a support set on volcarona but after a lot of test games with yobuddy and crunch, the set felt underwhelming on this team so I ended up changing it to qd with stabs. Conk was mostly filler but it rounded up the team nicely to deal with genies+kyube.
My team probably looked whack to a lot of players but I didn't want all the effort I put into prepping to go to waste so I decided to bring it and it ended up working out! The team is a lot of fun to use but its definitely a glass cannon lmao

W5 vs DaWoblefet
:bw/politoed: :bw/kingdra: :bw/landorus-therian: :bw/hydreigon: :bw/cresselia: :bw/conkeldurr:
Mr. Mish... I was really looking forward to playing against wob. He was undefeated and I was the underdog so I had to prove myself to make a name for myself in bw. I spent several nights analyzing his replays and scouting his teams movesets and items but I couldn't build a team I was satisfied with. It was only my 2nd week playing bw so wob didn't have much info on me and thats when I decided that bringing kingdra again might work. Yobuddy, Crunch, and Nido helped me out a lot to finish out the rest of the team and I was really happy with the outcome. When it came time to playing vs wob, I was not excited because it was a team that liked to para stuff and flinch them to death. smb had used this team vs umbry in classic and wob also used it vs human w3 so I made sure I did my best to play around it. In the end, I couldn't pull out the win but I wasn't upset with my performance. I held my own vs him and it made me realize that wob isn't Ezrael or emforbes. I can definitely get the win against him if we played again.

Semifinals vs Frania
:bw/conkeldurr: :bw/jellicent: :bw/amoonguss: :bw/landorus-therian: :bw/heatran: :bw/hydreigon:
I hate to admit it but Frania is someone I always struggled against. There were a lot of good ideas that got brought up in the team chat to use vs Fran but I ended up deciding to stay in my comfort zone. This backfired in my game and it showed. I felt pretty comfortable using the team in test games but it was really weak to conkeldurr. I knew this too but I didn't do anything about it. Frania exposed me in teambuilding and it honestly sucked. It threw off my confidence in bw and I was questioning whether I was the best option to slot in bw for the lands. Deep down, I always knew nido was our best bw player but he was going to be busy for most of dpl. I had to step up and relieve the stress for my manager and teammates but I failed. I'm sorry i let you guys down.

Finals vs DaWoblefet
:bw/shaymin-sky: :bw/tyranitar: :bw/excadrill: :bw/latios: :bw/thundurus: :bw/cresselia:
I finally get my rematch vs wob. I wanted to play against him so bad because I knew I could pull out the win this time. My team was a mess a couple of days before my game and if it weren't for yobuddy, actuarily, and umbry, no way in hell tiebreakers would've been possible. After my game with fran, I knew I had to do something about my weakness to conk. I wanted to use sand so the original core was skymin/ttar/exca/latios/thundy-therian. After a couple of test games though, actuarily suggested cress and thundy-incarnate to round out the team. It wasn't what I intended but my team turned out to be similar to smbs sand team. Like I mentioned before, I cant make the same mistake again of being weak to conk. The team ended up having 2 psychic types and 2 flying types to deal with with it. Fast forward to gameday and I couldn't fall asleep. I was posting in our team server from 12am-9am gmt-7 with only 2.5 hours left to go until the game started. I overslept and wasn't around to play so nido stepped in for us and he got the win. Ty nido. I cant thank you enough.

After all this, I realized I still have a lot to learn. I've been playing for 3.5 years now and it still isn't enough. I have to keep pushing myself and continue practicing so I don't get left behind. Its a lot of work but I do it because I love playing this game. Thank you again tenzai! You were the only manager that took a chance on me and believed in me. You don't realize how much that means to me and just know that I'll always be here for you as a friend! Thank you to all my teammates as well! ty so much. ty ty ty! I'm so grateful for this experience and you guys made it worthwhile :) I really wish we could've won it together but just know that I'll be looking forward to the day we team up again in the future!


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Hello, DOU Community!!! This is the 2nd entry of DPL Oldgens Tech of the Week!!!!!!!!!! A (supposedly) weekly segment where I talk about something very epic I noticed within the Oldgens scene, discussing its place in the team it's used and how it makes fits within the context of a broader meta. For (what was supposed to be dedicated to) DPL IX Week 2, we'll be talking about something that has somehow transcended generations:

Choice Band Genesect
Revealed Moves:
Iron Head / U-turn / Extreme Speed
Week 1:

Week 2:

Week 3:

Why CB Gene?

In looking at why a particular set is being used in a metagame, it's of course important to look at what the Pokemon itself offers. Genesect's basic niche is already familiar to most; it excels at dealing significant incidental damage and maintaining momentum for its team with its combination of Download, U-turn, and a wide array of coverage moves that lets it have super effective coverage on whatever its user wants. In SS, Genesect's niche is a bit more expanded; it sees use as a Shift Gear sweeper, taking advantage of an actually nifty defensive typing and newly found recovery in Leech Life, as well as a demonic attacker with Choice Band, turning its U-turn into a devastating hit in its own right. Here, we see this SS CB concept extrapolated to oldgens; the question here is: why?

To be fair, this isn't the first time that CB Gene (CBG) was used in Oldgens, but it's been used so rarely that it is likely fair to attribute this sudden surge to its popularity in SS, much like how SM served as the catalyst for the increased popularity of XY Seismic Toss Mega Kangaskhan. As to what the general motivation for this development was, it's also really simple: strong U-turn make player go monke mode ooh ooh ah ah. The ability to deal significant damage off a pivot move has universal appeal; however, what makes CBG additionally appealing for BW + XY and for SM are actually quite different!

The common denominator for CBG's relevance in BWXY is Prankster Thundurus, a prominent threat in both formats as it boasts many key meta matchups as well as undeniable utility in Prankster Thunder Wave. Thundurus in both formats often heavily invest in Special Defense because of the threats it often needs to match (The mirror, rain, Volcanion and MGar in XY, Latios and Jellicent in BW), which leaves it often with little in Defense investment. This is an important detail as a big draw of CBG in these formats is its ability to beat Prankster Thunder Wave with Extreme Speed; after dealing a good amount of damage in beforehand, CBG can deny Thundurus from getting a Thunder Wave off as demonstrated by Akaru Kokuyo. Of course, Extreme Speed is also handy for other matchups, particularly for also dealing with rain in both formats as well as for beating threats through redirection (as shown by Zee, with help from HH MKang), but beating Thundurus is where the appeal lies.

In contrast, SM is a much slower format, and Thundurus is quite irrelevant there as well. However, instead of being used to pick off specific threats, CBG's usefulness in Gen VII comes in how its ability to deal significant chip is fully maximized, due to the format favoring a slower approach with pivoting and punishing switches with Stealth Rocks compared to BWXY. GenOne's performance shows us this, prioritizing SR Turn 1, with the idea that they can use CBG along with Tapu Koko and Gothitelle to punish switches and isolate threats as appropriate. This genuinely doesn't seem as impactful compared to its presence in BWXY, hence the meager one appearance, but it definitely is something that one can viably work with in the format, with consideration of how Genesect threatens multiple sets off preview and the novelty can perhaps be something to take advantage of in a best-of-1 format.

Its moveset does not need much said about. U-turn and Extreme Speed, as mentioned, make up most of its niche. Iron Head is there mostly to have a STAB attack that doesn't also force it out; this isn't really that useful in BW, where a lot of threats are resistant to Steel, but this comes in quite handy in XY and SM for beating Sylveon, Tapu Fini, and Diancie. As for other moves it could run, an easily identifiable one is Explosion; being able to force significant damage, if not kills on both foes is quite significant, and both XY and SM feature prominent Ghost-types it can Explode next to in Jellicent and Mega Gengar (Exploding next to Mega Gengar is also a free switch to something that takes advantage of the trappng). It could also run Ice Beam, because beating Landorus-T is also quite universal within the Oldgens, but it often is not as useful, impactful, or necessary. Really, it could only really run these two moves for the final slot, with Blaze Kick being extremely fringe if not unviable because it doesn't really hit anything for anything.

A hazard setter is nice to have as mentioned. This usually comes easy enough in SM, but Stealth Rock can be harder to come by and XY and BW. In XY, Landorus-T is the only reliable SR setter, and teams constantly rely a lot on Landorus-T's ability to answer threats that setting SR, if not just fitting it onto its moveset at all, can be a challenge. BW, meanwhile, has a particular speed and dynamism that makes setting SR quite difficult to do, as most of the time an attack to deal significant chip is preferred over incremental value of SR; SR also only has Landorus-T as a setter and it would typically be a suicide lead if doing so, as it requires a Focus Sash to take the metagame's heftiest hits, with the only other passable setter in Tyranitar needing its HP and presence on the field to be spent actually checking threats and not doing nothing. SR can help CBG a lot in doing what it does, but it can be a tough ask getting them; nevertheless, CBG does its job just fine as a pivot attacker, so don't make the mistake of thinking SR is required for it to work.

Future Meta Implications?

Now, it's time to consider... would this actually continue to be used? My verdict: I really doubt it.

It's already seen no further use in SM; I expected this as it's CBG's weakest format by far, due to: a) Tapu Koko already being here, which makes the strong pivot role sort of unnecessary; b) the presence of WIFAM, which makes a lot of stuff tough to kill; and c) the significant presence of both Incineroar and Landorus-T, two Intimidators that make CBG do its job worse. Unlike SS, there's also no threat like Rillaboom which it just so obviously exploits.

It's seen more use in BW and XY, but I genuinely don't expect it to see more usage. I was genuinely surprise it saw more usage Week 3, but it didn't really do anything impressive. There hasn't really been anything that's changed in these formats that make CBG suddenly good. In BW, it always could beat Thund's Prankster, but Genesect also has such a bland defensive profile in a format that has strict defensive requirements. It also has a losing matchup into a bunch of BW's top threats, such as Heatran and Jellicent, and being dependent on ESpeed (a non-STAB Normal-type move) is definitely exploitable. XY, meanwhile, is still defensive as ever, and there hasn't really been a rising threat that CBG is uniquely equipped to handle. Landorus-T is still always there to just Intim it, and Volcanion is naturally physically bulky.

Really, to me, CBG seems to be a flavor of the month pick. Genuinely, I think it sucks lmao! Who really knows, though! We'll see throughout this DPL if CBG is the real deal, or if it's just a flash in the pan. Keep yourself posted for the 3rd edition of Oldgens tech of the week, which should happen this week as well because I don't wanna delay this thing further!!!
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Hello, DOU Community!!! This is the 3rd entry of DPL Oldgens Tech of the Week!!!!!!!!!! A (supposedly) weekly segment where I talk about something very epic I noticed within the Oldgens scene, discussing its place in the team it's used and how it makes fits within the context of a broader meta. For the entry dedicated to DPL IX Week 3, we are going to talk about one of BW's particularly anti-meta picks:
Revealed Moves:
Thunderbolt / Thunder / Hidden Power Flying / Substitute / Protect / Volt Switch
Replays: DaWoblefet, vs Memoric (Week 2) - Lunar, vs DaWoblefet (Week 3) - DaAwesomeDude1, vs Mishimono (Week 3)

Why BW Thundurus-T?

"Wait Mx. Moric! You already wrote about Thundurus-T in Week 1!!! Did you forgor or are you stupid?" Well, dear reader, I do firmly assure you that the former is not the case. Thundurus(-Therian) is also NOT my favorite Pokemon, and I'd be offended at the mere thought. Rather, the reason I'm writing about this Pokemon again is because it has a niche in BW that is both interesting and is quite different from its relatively much smaller niche in XY; while its sole appearance in XY is for it having a very specific blend of offensive and defensive utility, its repeated appearances in BW, not only during DPL but throughout the history of BW DOU play, is based on its ability to function as the format's most viable tech to Thundurus-I and, specifically, its Electric-type moves.

The fact to realize here is that, unlike in XY, BW DOU's Electric-types can still get paralyzed. With BW DOU being a high octane metagame rife with strong attacks like Latios Dragon Gem Draco Meteor, Kingdra Water Gem Hydro Pump, and CBKB Outrage, getting a Speed advantage can be the name of the game. Thundurus-I is one of the format's best Pokemon not only because of how it can double as an offensive threat and as a utility threat, but also due to how difficult it is to play around Thunder Wave. Due to the limited amount of Pokemon that can reliably take a Thunder Wave—Ground-types, which in the metagame is essentially being just Landorus-T and Excadrill—Thundurus-I can almost always cripple at least one. This makes Thundurus-I quite infuriating to deal with, as not only can it easily provide a Speed advantage, but also the ability to just spam Thunder Wave and make any Pokemon possibly lose a turn is quite powerful in a dynamic format such as BW DOU, where games definitely go the fastest relative to other DOU formats.

This is where Thundurus-T fits in. Thanks to its ability in Volt Absorb, it can take a Thunder Wave without getting paralyzed. This makes it one of the best techs to Thundurus-I, as it's a strong offensive threat that Thundurus just can't cripple outright. Thundurus-T has a repuation of being a "ListMons Killer" piece, with "The List" essentially being a set of good BW Pokemon that teams essentially default into having. Thundurus-T stands as being particularly good into Thundurus, Jellicent, Metagross, Hitmontop, and possibly Amoonguss and Landorus-T as well depending on how the particular Thundurus-T is built. Thundurus-T's fit in the BW DOU metagame, then, is as a Thundurus-I hate pick that also has good matchups into many common BW DOU threats.

Still, it's important to realize that Thundurus-T isn't a foolproof answer to all Thundurus-I. Offensive Thundurus-I variants can still smack Thundurus-T with a Hidden Power Ice, possibly Life Orb-boosted. However, it can be relatively easy to know if a team has offensive Thundurus-I, anyway; typically, it only really sees use in rain teams, and they also have a tendency to run Hidden Power Flying instead to hit Amoonguss (remember, BW DOU Hidden Powers are 70 Base Power).

The way Thundurus-T are built in BW DOU have actually tended to be a mix of bulk and power. They have a tendency to shed some Speed a bit, only opting to outrun some slower threats in the base 80-95 Speed range such as Adamant Landorus-T; this makes sense are there is essentially no base 100 Speed threat in BW DOU outside of Volcarona, which is already quite uncommon, with the common threats by those ranges in Landorus-T and Kyurem-B tending to run offense-boosting natures. For example, the ListMons Killer team by Stratos runs Modest and doesn't fully invest in Speed and Special Attack in order to get some Special Defense EVs. We've also seen DaWoblefet's Thundurus-T get outrun by a Landorus-T, and from this interaction I can only sensibly guess that Memoric's Landorus-T was Jolly. Still, Thundurus-T is still an offensively statted Pokemon, and keeping high investment in Speed can prove useful in certain scenarios; we've seen this in how Dad1's Thundurus-T outran Mishimono's Hydreigon, getting the Volt Switch off before it gets smashed by a Draco Meteor (unless, of course, this was also just the world's slowest Hydreigon, which is unlikely).

Thundurus-T's sets throughout time have been somewhat predictable, often just staying within the realm of Thunderbolt / Thunder, Volt Switch, Protect, and a Hidden Power of choice that has tended to be Flying more often than not. The default Electric-type STAB move is important for Thundurus-T to actually hit opposing Thundurus-I without being forced to switch out, while HP Flying is really nice for smashing Hitmontop and Amoonguss. Volt Switch is there as a strong attack for chip damage and positioning, which can really come in handy for breaking down stuff such as Cresselia and Heatran while maintaining board positioning due to Thundurus-T's inherently high Special Attack. Thundurus-T's items have also tended to be Gems, either Electric or Flying to get a kill threshold on opposing Thundurus-I or Amoonguss.

Lunar's Substitute set is actually quite the anomaly; Substitute theoretically lets it be a difficult-to-remove threat on the field that can spread damage around a la Heatran. Thundurus setting up Subs isn't exactly novel as Thundurus-I has been seen to run Substitute while it's spreading around TWaves, but running Substitute over Volt Switch on Thundurus-T in particular doesn't really support its niche of being a defensive answer to a specific threat, instead making it the main attacking piece—a role in which Thundurus-T could feel quite lacking, and it showed in how Lunar's Thundurus-T quickly fell after dishing out just one desparing HP Flying. Thunder / Flying coverage feels better when you're picking your engagements, especially with how reliant HP Flying is on super effective coverage to be lethal, and it can be otherwise quite sad against threats that Thunderbolt can't actually make a difference against.

In terms of team fit, Thundurus-T teams have tended to be on the offensive side—remember, picking Thundurus-T in the builder is a defensively motivated choice to specifically deal with Thundurus-I. Thundurus-T's job is to soak the Thunder Wave while also dealing significant damage to break down the opposing team, which its team's actual main attackers will appreciate. This point is particularly illustrated by how two of its appearances were in rain teams to support Kingdra; not only is Thundurus-T supposed to match Thundurus-I in the matchup, but it can also threaten Jellicent, which is a menace to any rain team around. Thundurus-T teams also tend to look for Water-resistances; if a team is actively opting not to run Thundurus-I, with the specially defensive utility set being quite the answer to rain teams, then of course such a team would need to be capable of withstanding strong Water-type attacks. All three teams featured Amoonguss / Ferrothorn, as well as their own individual ways of matching the rain matchup—DaWoblefet ran Focus Sash Deoxys-A and a strong priority attacker in Bisharp; Lunar. ran Cresselia; and Dad1 ran, of all things, Haban Berry Latias. Both Lunar. and Dad1 also had rain teams of their own, and if not with Politoed then they could very well match the rain mirror matchup with a Timid Kingdra.

A Place in the Meta?

To sum, Thundurus-T has an interesting place in the BW DOU metagame for its ability to match Thundurus-I, as it has the ability to soak a Thunder Wave in a metagame where options that can do so are quite limited. Will this niche give Thundurus-T a lasting place in the metagame? For sure, because it always was on the map to begin with. Its appearances are not really a new development, but rather an indication of how this particular DPL's BW DOU players are approaching their matchups. Thundurus-T has always had a standing history in BW DOU for its particular stated niche, and while the niche may be small, it will likely continue to give an impression on prospective BW DOU players, for this DPL and perhaps in future tournaments as well.


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dpl ix team dump!!

triple posting!!! i played bw dou in DPL IX and went 3-0. it was fun. my week 7 performance specifically i felt was really good so it has a longer writeup. here are my teams

Week 1 - vs tenzai (Lands) // things with wings

This was my first game of the season so I wanted to keep it nice and simple. I knew I was better than my opponent, so all I really had to do was show up with something solid as a rock and then just play it by ear. Thus, I ended up with a simple bog-standard six for Sand SemiRoom; primarily choosing Tyranitar to be a solid answer to a lot of things and rain, Jellicent because it's thanos, and Heatran because it compliments the two fairly well with great spread damage and the ability to hit Metagross, Amoonguss, and Ferrothorn super effectively. Latios and Conkeldurr are there for being pieces that aim to press the attack, having great power and coverage between the two of them; Latios's natural Speed and Conkeldurr's strong priority in Mach Punch are key for the team having an offensive advantage on the board. Landorus-T rounds out the team by being Landorus-T; a curious soul would notice that I elected to not run Stealth Rock and instead opt into Protect instead despite running the Focus Sash set, and this because I felt that SR was quite useless in BW and Protect likely bumps up my win percentage by just a bit more, being useful in more realistic scenarios.

The game itself felt went mostly within expectations. Running into double Intimidate + Chansey was somewhat unnerving, as I had to preserve my Conkeldurr until an opportune moment comes for it to match the Chansey, but the two Intimidate users made it difficult to put Chansey into kill thresholds. The early-game was about getting as much damage to Chansey's teammates as possible and force the breakdown of tenzai's defensive backbone. This lead up to the pivotal turn 8—after getting key chip on tenzai's Landorus-T and Hitmontop, I was then poised to take both down in one fell swoop with my Landorus-T's Explosion. With both Intimidate Pokemon out of the way, the remaining 4v4 was easy enough to execute and I went home with a win.

Week 2 - vs DaWoblefet (Storms) // American Beauty/American Psycho

This time, whether or not I was better than my opponent was... more debatable, let's just say. DaWoblefet has had the reputation of being one of the very best the BW format has to offer, so I knew I had to look for a teambuilding edge. I was giving Landorus-T and Excadrill a good amount of respect, as I knew DaWoblefet would know I don't run much Landorus-T in BW. I was also giving a good amount of respect to Skymin, which DaWoblefet previously identified as being good into me. There was also a good amount of respect given to goodstuffs pieces like Metagross and Tyranitar, and then I was also making sure I was essentially "uncheesable" by something like CM Suicune or Chansey. All of these made me end up with the abomination above. I basically started with double Lati—the line of thinking was: "if Latios is the best Pokemon in the format, why not run two of them?" And two of them I did run, both with offensive sets. At this point, I had to super prep for Jellicent, Tyranitar, Excadrill, and Metagross, which is why I ended up with double Intimidate Scrafty and Landorus-T. Genesect was there because it was a good general attacker within the context of the teamcomp + HH CB ESpeed can OHKO Thundurus. SpDef Choice Scarf Rotom-W is there because it's another good answer to a bunch of stuff like Steels and Jellicent, and it can also just Trick a Choice Scarf to whatever it is DaWoblefet is trying to cheese me with.

(Note: The Latios on this team is Psyshock, but Psychic is generally better because it's stronger and it can occasionally matter for Amoognuss. Psyshock here was also just meant to give due respect to CM Suicune, as I didn't feel I lose much by doing so.)

I felt a great sense of despair when I saw the team preview for the game. Bisharp! Why Bisharp!? In retrospect, it completely made sense: my pet teams often involved Jellicent + Tyranitar + Hitmontop / Landorus-T + Latios, and while I did prepare with one threatening Dark-type in Tyranitar relatively well, Bisharp isn't exactly something I can answer with Intimidate Pokemon. Basically, I knew I had to force something really weird and play crazy if I wanted to get out of the Bisharp matchup alive, as the rest of DaWob's team I was relatively okay with. What then followed was what I could only describe as a series of unfortunate events for my opponent. Yeah! If nothing else, this game is a vindication of my decision to keep running Jolly Landorus-Ts. I did get into the position into Bisharp that I wanted, which was to force it to pick one and get traded off by the other, but I didn't exactly get there cleanly. Fortunate game for me all around.

Week 7 - vs Mishimono (Spectral Thieves) // Luxury Disease

Team Discussion

To preface, among the teams I've built, this is the one I'm most proud of as it's probably the best team I've ever built in like 2 years or so. In prep, I recognized Mishimono as someone willing to use literally anything, and if anything the Spectral Thieves braintrust would probably be building around my own tendencies instead. A bit of introspection shows I'm a huge Jellicent / Tyranitar / Heatran abuser, I tend to run Thundurus decent amount of the time, and I've been using Hitmontop less and favoring Landorus-T more. With this in mind, I had a strong hunch that I would run into an Excadrill sand comp, which would be one of the better ways to punish my own tendencies.

Thus, I went with the idea of running a core of Metagross / Gastrodon / Conkeldurr. Metagross, with a Substitute up, can be quite punishing into sand teams, and even more so if I run Earthquake for Excadrill, with the move not as popular as a 2nd move and potentially useful into opposing Metagross and Heatran as well. Gastrodon is one of the better ways to cover Metagross's bad matchups into Heatran, Landorus-T, and Jellicent, and with a physically defensive spread it can capably match Excadrill as well. Conkeldurr is there as another offensive piece that is strong into sand and Heatran, with its Iron Fist LO Mach Punch being really nifty to put pressure on weakened stuff. Thundurus and Offensive Cresselia provide a double Thunder Wave core that also handles a bunch of possibly problematic stuff for the team; while the initial pieces of the team were slow enough that I could reasonably have run Trick Room instead, I felt that Thunder Wave on Cresselia effectively lets me push the same concept without the limited window. The 36 Speed EVs on Conkeldurr is specifically for beating a paralyzed Modest Kingdra in the rain, though they also come up clutch in a Conkeldurr mirror as well. Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave is good as another check to rain and faster threats such as Latios and KB; its Thunderbolt is nifty into Jellicent; and access to Sky Drop was cool for letting me do something funky with Sub Metagross. Meanwhile, the Cresselia marks Conkeldurr, Landorus-T, Scizor, and Ferrothorn with its coverage. The decision to run HP Fire was because I felt Mishimono could run Scizor / Ferrothorn into me, and if I was stealing this team, I would consider changing this to HP Ground for general consistency. The team is then rounded out by Choice Scarf Landorus-T—I was expecting sand anyway and I already have two Ground immunities, so packing a Landorus-T made sense generally, while the Choice Scarf is there to give the team an actual fast attacking piece, with the speed coming in handy on opposing Latios (clueless).

Game Discussion

I did run into an Excadrill Sand team, giving me the exact matchup I prepared for. The game itself went off to a rocky start for me, however, as I got my Landorus-T quickly trapped and sniped down by a Choice Scarf Latios. In all honesty, I did sort-of expect this as it made sense for Mishimono's teamcomp, considering it had a Gothitelle and it was heavily incentivized to take down Landorus-T quickly for TTar / Excadrill. At the same time, I just gaslit myself into thinking they were probably not Choice Scarf Latios anyway as the team already had decent Speed in Sand Rush Excadrill and they know I like to run Focus Sash Landorus-T, which could make the endeavor pointless. Alas! Still, I did feel that I had to lead with Metagross / Landorus-T anyway, as this gave me the safest opening into their teamcomp; Conkeldurr and Cresselia could end up in a bad spot into a Gothitelle lead, while Gastrodon and Thundurus felt too low impact at lead as I felt I needed them to match specific threats later on. Landorus-T and Metagross let me cover everything the best, with Choice Scarf Landorus-T theortically matching all the sand pieces and Latios, and with Metagross seemingly favored into their Latios, Gothitelle, and Conkeldurr (they should respect Zen Headbutt). If my Landorus-T was to go down to a Choice Scarf Latios lead, I would ultimately just let it happen as a Latios being locked into Ice Beam into Metagross was something I could capitalize on.

Capitalize on this was what I did as the first thing I did was Earthquake on an expected Excadrill switch, just right after getting a timely Attack boost from Meteor Mash. I had to Meteor Mash Turn 1 as Landorus-T went down due to needing to respect TrickScarf Gothitelle, because if I Subsitute on a Trick the game was 100% done. While I could have Substitute Turn 2, I decided to go for the more aggressive play of instead Earthquaking immediately, fully expecting Excadrill to be the one coming in that turn; Mishi's Latios switching out was a forced play, and every Pokemon Mishi had other than Excadrill was a losing matchup into Metagross. At the same time, Metagross were not really known to run Earthquake that much (they do sometimes), and I went to Cresselia which theoretically invites Excadrill as well, so I felt that I had the initiative to force the kill immediately. This key play was what put me on the driver's seat after what happened turn 1, as the rest of Mishimono's team outside of Thundurus was not favored into Metagross at all and they essentially had to get a trade involving both Latios and Thundurus to significantly chunk it.

Turn 4 was a pivotal turn for the game as well. I could have Protected Metagross while Cresselia dealt with Mishimono's Thundurus in order to prevent Metagross from getting paralyzed. However, I felt compelled to pin the Tyranitar so I could preserve Cresselia for Mishimono's Conkeldurr. In hindsight, this was possibly unnecessary as Metagross matched Gothitelle and Tyranitar well enough while the rest of my team should have been enough into Mishimono's Conkeldurr. The fact that it was Protect Tyranitar was the worst case scenario for me—I genuinely just didn't put Mishimono on Protect at all as Protect on Tyranitar was rarely run, and getting my Metagross paralyzed while not getting the Tyranitar kill made the game spicier.

We play the sequence out, with me attempting to paralyze Mishimono's Tyranitar so Metagross regains the Speed advantage. However, Tyranitar reveals itself to be Lum Berry, which was unfortunate for my Metagross but not for my plans. With the revelation of Tyranitar as NotChople, I knew then that I could OHKO it with Mach Punch from Conkeldurr later in the game. Regardless of this, all my attacks at this point were aimed at the Gothitelle, aiming to weaken it so I could get a kill on Tyranitar with Conkeldurr while being able to prevent the trade from Gothitelle with what was most likely going to be Thundurus. This sequence then plays out, ending in my favor and letting walk out with a dub in a must-win game for my team.

Bonus Team - Circa-Week 2

I have no idea neither.


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DPL IX Teamdump

This is long overdue but here are the 6 teams I used during DPL. I signed up for DPL cause I wanted to play mons again for some godforsaken reason and ended up getting the best regular season BW record as well as making top 8 in BW cup.

I wanted to wait until I got out of BW cup before I posted these, since I was only gonna be rotating between these 6 teams haha. I updated some of the sets for BW cup so I'll include both the original teams and the updated version for completion.

Week 1 - vs Amaranth (W)
:thundurus: :kyurem-black: :bisharp: :cresselia: :jellicent: :landorus-therian: - BW cup version

When we scouted Amaranth's teams, it seems he loved using the Landorus Semiroom sample. He also had pretty high Jellicent usage and his other teams all had an Intimidate user. Since this was my first game back, I figured he would not deviate too much from this structure, so we built around Bisharp. The rest of the team building process wasn't anything spectacular, I just slapped a bunch of generic good mons to round it out. CB Kyub was the strong physical attacker I wanted to use with Bisharp. E-belt Cress was added instead of Latios because I wanted something that hit Fighting-types, Heatran, and Landorus-t hard that I can also use to pivot often. I thought Protect was a decent addition on Cress though because it typically doesn't run Protect, so I could potentially catch a sick double target into that slot (although that didn't really end up happening). For BW cup, I realized after the DPL game that Bisharp didn't outspeed neutral Heatran so I just made it max Speed.

During the game, I was pretty happy to see the team we scouted for. Turn 1 I didn't think he would stay in with Landorus-T, so I opted for chip on Kyurem-B instead. I got lucky the next turn winning (what I think) was a speed tie into the Explosion. In Turn 3, I realized that I was slower than the Heatran but figured he probably expects me to be faster so I went for the hard Night Slash read into the Jellicent that ended up working out. When Thundurus revealed Protect in Turn 5, I knew it likely didn't have HP Ice, so I can ignore it and just spam Earthquakes. From then on, I just had to paralyze the Kyurem-B so that I can outspeed it with my own Kyub / Lando. In Turn 9, I targeted the Thundurus cause Kyub can't touch Jellicent and it would've been a free Conk if I killed Kyub. I knew I could take one Ice Beam but a full-para simplified the endgame for me a lot.

Week 2 - vs Smudge (W)
:conkeldurr: :heatran: :jellicent: :kyurem-black: :thundurus: :landorus-therian:

Going in to week 2, I wanted to use sub Heatran because Smudge was newer to BW and I felt that sub Tran puts in major work against newer players. Originally the Kyurem-B was CB but Noelle suggested making it Sub as well for double the annoyance. Then I just rounded it out with generic good mons again. The Conkeldurr is bulky Sitrus cause I don't like LO Conk and I thought I might see a Bisharp, based on Smudge's team scout.

At team preview, I didn't really have a solid plan since there were a ton of stuff that can threaten both Heatran and Kyub from getting a sub up so I went with the old reliable genies lead. Turn 1, I went for a U-turn into Tyranitar risking the potential Scarf Latios but I thought it'd be a fine trade if I got to paralyze it. Plus, if it locked itself in to Ice Beam, it was a free sub for my Heatran. With Thundurus gone, my win-con was going to be set up TR and start clicking Heat Wave, which I was able to do. After TR ended, everything was chipped enough for me to click super effective moves to win.

Week 3 - vs Mishimono (W)
:politoed: :kingdra: :genesect: :amoonguss: :thundurus-therian: :latias: - BW cup version

For week 3, we wanted to switch up the teams since I brought Jellicent balance for two weeks. I ended up building around rain. This is a pretty standard rain team structure of Politoed / Kingdra / Thundurus check / Grass-type / Dragon check / Rain check. I wanted to use CB Gene this week cause I saw it putting in work in a week 2 replay. It also served as my soft rain check with E-Speed and hits all the relevant dragons super-effectively. Sam suggested Latias cause with Healing Wish, it's like having two Kingdras. In practice, I only used it to get a free switch but it was heat so I kept it. For BW cup, I replaced Shadow Claw on Gene for Flamethrower so I don't click x against Ferrothorn. Shadow Claw was only there to snipe Jellicent anyways but there are ways to beat Jelli on this team. Plus, locking yourself in to Shadow Claw is just a momentum killer on this team.

I wasn't sure what Mish was gonna lead with so I went with Genesect + Thundurus-T so I can pivot. Turn 1, I went for a hard Thunder read in to Thundurus. In weather wars, you never want to be down a Pokemon since that limits your ability to pivot so I was pretty confident he was going to protect the Hydreigon to prevent me from getting a free kill. I got the read right and with a lucky high roll, all I had to do was maintain my momentum and I can win. Turn 5 was an example of this when I doubled in to Genesect and Thundurus-t to get Amoonguss and Politoed off the field. From then on, I just had to get Kingdra in under rain to win.

Week 4 - vs Paraplegic (L)
:tyranitar: :excadrill: :latios: :latias: :breloom: :thundurus: - BW cup version

I didn't know what to expect against Paraplegic so I just went with sand, since I haven't used it yet. I made the Excadrill Leftovers Sub because I thought I would be clicking it more often. Also since sand was brought against me two weeks in a row already, I thought there was no way I'd play a sand mirror (I was wrong). I flip flopped between a ton of Tyranitar sets but ultimately went with standard Chople because it felt the most consistent. Latias was added instead of Cresselia because it accomplishes what Cress does on sand while being much faster. I wanted a more offensive Grass-type that also covered the sand matchup, so I went with Breloom. I opted for Specs HP Fire Latios because Excadrill covers Heatran (barring Substitute) and I wanted strong consistent chip damage to pair with Leftovers Excadrill. Thundurus was the last mon for a soft rain check.

For BW cup, I made the Thundurus Substitute and gave Excadrill Life Orb. The reason for the changes is because I thought Substitute was broken (which I touch on briefly later) and Excadrill's whole point is to do damage.

I was pretty shocked when I saw another sand team. I can't remember why I lead Excadrill considering that was my win con and there were like 5 mons that can hit it super effectively. My game plan was chip with Latios and then try and get a sub up with Excadrill. Turn 4, I was caught off guard with the Focus Sash Ttar and almost lost my Breloom. On Turn 6, I switched out Breloom rather than attacking the Ttar because it was my way of revenge killing Excadrill. I was worried about a potential double target in to Excadrill so I opted for Protect rather than Sub. Turn 8 was where Leftovers backfired against me. LO Rock Slide + Draco would've killed Cress at that range but since I was Leftovers, it ended up being a roll instead. In hindsight, I misplayed pretty heavily there. Excadrill behind Sub was my wincon, so I should have played it safe and went for more chip on the Cress instead of risking the roll. With Sub being broken, I thought the game was ultimately gonna come down to an Excadrill speed tie and just went for it. In the last turn of the game, I had the chance to win it if Latios hits through Air Slash + full-para. Miraculously, Latios did hit through but I didn't calc for some reason and clicked HP Fire instead, which never kills Skymin at that range.

Week 5 - vs Lunar (W)
:politoed: :kingdra: :shaymin-sky: :thundurus: :scizor: :landorus-therian:

I was struggling pretty hard to build a team I liked for Lunar. Originally, we were going to build full-room since that hasn't been used in DPL yet but I didn't like any of the teams. I went through all of the ideas we had in previous weeks too but again, didn't build anything that I liked. Two days before our scheduled time, I was just like fuck it I'm going to use rain again. I felt comfortable piloting rain in week 3 and I believe that rain is unbeatable if you're aggressive with your reads. I followed the same rain structure in week 3. This time, I opted for Shaymin-Sky as my Grass-type for a more aggressive option. At this point, I was thinking that Substitute might be broken. In particular, I think that sub Skymin is amazing on rain. Kingdra covers for Skymin pretty well by pressuring Ttar, Heatran, Landorus, and Dragons that can deter your sub while Skymin can pressure or get a free sub on common rain checks, like Amoonguss and Jellicent. With how much positioning matters against rain, I felt that I would have a lot of opportunities to either set up a free sub or snowball with Kingdra since there are not a lot of non-weather options that can reliably beat Kingdra and Skymin when they are on the field together. This also forces the opponent to choose which to remove which, oftentimes, lets me weaken things to the point where I can clean with my remaining Pokemon. As a result, I decided to lean fully into HO, so I made the Thundurus offensive. This makes the rain and balance MU a little bit trickier since Thund can be worn down way easier but it's HO so I said fuck it. Scizor was my dragon check and Landorus is there for opposing Thunds. This ended up being my favorite team and the one I was most comfortable with (considering I also used it in every one of my BW cup matches haha).

At team preview, I had a really good matchup so the plan was to get Kingdra in safely and start clicking water attacks. A Seed Flare crit + drop in Turn 3 put Latios in range of Muddy Water which meant I can sub with Skymin. A double Muddy Water miss in Turn 6 made it a little trickier but at that point, Kingdra has done its damage so I just had to chip with Skymin enough for Scizor to clean.

Week 6 - vs Spurrific (W)
:metagross: :landorus-therian: :thundurus: :latios: :suicune: :heatran:

Week 6 was a must-win week if we wanted to keep our slim playoff hopes alive. Against Spurrific, I was also struggling hard to build a team I liked. I knew I wanted to build around Sub Metagross but none of the teams felt good. At this point, I was thinking of just running it back with my week 5 team but after messing around with Metagross more, I finally built something I felt good about. Suicune was a last minute suggestion by Noelle based on Spurrific's scout. I've also used standard stuff up to now so we were hoping to catch him off guard with it. The Jellicent matchup is non-existent so I added random Toxic on Heatran and made Latios Dragon Gem for quick burst damage. Lando and Thund are self explanatory additions.

During the game, Suicune had a great matchup once I removed Jellicent and Thundurus so I lead Latios and Lando hoping to catch one of those two. Turn 3, I over-read and lost my Metagross for free. Turn 4, I actually ended up calcing incorrectly somehow (it said my Shuca Tran always lived Earth Power at that range) but it ended up working out cause I won the speed tie and was able to get rid of the Jellicent. With Jellicent gone and Thundurus heavily chipped, I felt good about my chances of coming back if I can get a sub up with Suicune. Turn 10, I was able to slow down Kyub with T-wave and a crucial Sky Drop in Turn 11 allowed Suicune to set up another sub. At that point, I just had to sack Thund and maintain sub so I can get Latios in for free.

Week 7 - vs eragon (L)
:honchkrow: :blaziken: :thundurus: :jellicent: :rhydon: :metagross:

This team is a mash of some of the heat mons we had on teams at one point during the season but ended up removing when we realized we wanted to win games :l

Overall, I had a great time playing in DPL. Shoutouts to kaori and big pichu for taking a risk on me. Special shoutouts to everyone who responded to my "any gamers itc" for tests especially smudgerox, Level 51, AIRedzone, and Nido-Rus. Not gonna tag all of church but y'all made this a great time! Shoutouts bunnyy for hosting! Happy that I beat the washed allegations.
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is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion


There's a new Oldgen Manager™ 'round these parts! As you may have noticed, I am now handling the thread for BW DOU, overseeing BW VR updates, sample team updates, and various other needs and projects regarding the oldgen. I made that list of responsibilities up, but you get the gist. Anyway! I am now in charge with this Oldgen's resources, and I do plan to keep this as well regulated as I managed to have the XY thread, so do rest assured that this'll be in tiptop shape.

The BW DOU thread is very (in)famous for how much its Viability Rankings gets updated. The last time the VR post got edited was on March 7th of 2021—yes, that is the date of the post being edited or touched at all, not necessarily it being the last VR update (though that would obviously a bad thing as well). The Sample Teams post is in similar shape, with its last post update being on May 24th of 2021. It is essential that we give constant care to important learning resources if we want to promote activity within our oldgens, so rest assured that updates will roll right away when it comes to these resources.

With that in mind...


Yes, the VR actually just got updated! Please look at the post for it on the first page to see it in all its glory. The entirety of the VR was voted on by a group of respectable, worthy BW players consisting of myself, DaAwesomeDude1, DaWoblefet, Frania, SMB, smudgerox, and zee. This has lead to a shake-up in rankings to more accurately depict the state of the metagame at the current moment, with many Pokemon rising and falling throughout the rankings. We have also removed the ranking of Tier 5 altogether, as this tier was essentially superfluous and typically consisted of Pokemon that saw use only extremely rarely. With this also came a purging of Pokemon on the previous VR that would not deserve to be ranked otherwise.

As mentioned, the latest version of the VR is on the first page. Here, however, are all the movements between rankings:

:Landorus-Therian: Landorus-T: 2 -> 1
:Excadrill: Excadrill: 3 -> 2
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn: 4 -> 3
:gastrodon: Gastrodon: 4 -> 3
:genesect: Genesect: 4 -> 3
:scrafty: Scrafty: 4 -> 3
:bisharp: Bisharp: 5 -> 4
:marowak: Marowak: 5 -> 4
:deoxys-attack: Deoxys-A: UR -> 4
:latias: Latias: UR -> 4
:cobalion: Cobalion: UR -> 4

:Heatran: Heatran: 1 -> 2
:kingdra: Kingdra: 1 -> 2
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-B: 1 -> 2
:scizor: Scizor 2 -> 3
:volcarona: Volcarona: 3 -> 4
:Breloom: Breloom: 3 -> 4
:keldeo: Keldeo: 3 -> 4
:terrakion: Terrakion: 3 -> 4
:victini: Victini: 4 -> UR
:gyarados: Gyarados: 5 -> UR
:heracross: Heracross: 5 -> UR
:infernape: Infernape: 5 -> UR
:mamoswine: Mamoswine: 5 -> UR
:manaphy: Manaphy: 5 -> UR
:mew: Mew: 5 -> UR
:ninetales: Ninetales: 5 -> UR
:sableye: Sableye: 5 -> UR
:landorus: Landorus-I: 5 -> UR

This is the next order of business and new, updated sample teams will be ready in the very near future.

We hope these updates will be useful to anyone who wants to get into BW for DPL and DOU Circuit tours that feature Oldgens! These rankings will be revisited at an appropriate time in the future.
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It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
Sad I missed DPL but happy to see the thread VR updated - it looks really good!

I would really like to see some examples or discussion of Exccadrill teams in action. I feel I find it hard to build chiefly due to the spread of high-tiered threats that beat both excadrill and ttar (landot, intimidate, amoonguss) and excadrill's lack of defensive synergy despite being a steel. Memoric's sample team is a good start but would be cool to see some discussion!

Here is a submission for a sample team
:amoonguss: :landorus-therian: :thundurus: :tyranitar: :heatran: :latios:

The core concept is double switch moves with u-turn and volt switch to enable choice band tyranitar positioning. There are very few things that are happy about casually eating a cb rock slide, especially if your opps steel is Heatran. Amoonguss benefits from the rotational positioning and Latios comes with Tailwind to further enable Ttar. Substitute Heatran here rounds out the composition as a stable Metagross counter and alternative wincon, while also benefiting from Thundurus TWave and Ttar's Sand.

The spreads can easily be modified for speed creep if one likes (ie timid Heatran, faster Ttar, Jolly-scarf Landot) but this is the default version, so to speak. I brought this team vs Stratos in DPL 6 and I find it to be very consistent.
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is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion


We've updated the spread of sample teams! The post containing the sample teams is on the first page, which is also linked here. Apologies for the delay! The list of sample teams were curated specifically to represent the various core archetypes of the BW metagame. We hope that this new list of teams will help foster a more holistic way of getting into the BW DOU metagame!
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