Gen 5 BW OU Viability Ranking

Jirachee

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BW
OU Viability Ranking Thread

Welcome to the BW OU Viability Ranking thread. This thread contains a ranking of every viable Pokemon, separated in tiers to indicate power gaps. You may notice that they are not ranked alphabetically within their own subtiers; that is because every Pokemon is ranked within their subranks too. For example, if Garchomp and Keldeo are both S rank, but Garchomp is ranked higher than Keldeo, then Garchomp is the better one of the two.

Keep in mind that rankings are subjective and that your opinion is not a fact, but rather, you should use facts to support your opinions.

BW2 OU Ranking tier list V5

S Rank:

Garchomp
Keldeo
Tyranitar
A Rank:

Aα
Jirachi
Alakazam
Landorus-Therian
Breloom
Politoed
Latios
Aβ
Ferrothorn
Skarmory
Starmie
Scizor
Reuniclus
Heatran
Volcarona
Aγ
Hydreigon
Kyurem-Black
Terrakion
Jellicent
Gliscor
Latias
Aδ
Dragonite
Gyarados
Mamoswine
Thundurus-Therian
Tornadus
Rotom-Wash
Aε
Gastrodon
Tentacruel
Amoonguss
Mew
Hippowdon
Gengar
Celebi​

B Rank:

B+
Slowking
Magnezone
Excadrill
Gothitelle
Kyurem
Lucario
Toxicroak
Salamence
Abomasnow
Sableye
B
Forretress
Moltres
Sharpedo
Victini
Kingdra
Mienshao
Weavile
Froslass
Metagross
B-
Dugtrio
Chansey
Feraligatr
Quagsire
Slowbro
Roserade
Virizion
Conkeldurr
Xatu
Cobalion​

C Rank:

C
Azumarill
Aerodactyl
Azelf
Jolteon
Haxorus
Heracross
Infernape
Cresselia
Espeon
Ninetales
Chandelure
Wobbuffet
Darmanitan
Empoleon
Shaymin
Cloyster
Nidoqueen​
D Rank:

D
Blissey
Raikou
Staraptor
Vaporeon
Donphan
Nidoking
Bisharp
Togekiss
Venusaur
Cofagrigus
Ditto
Garbodor
Jynx
Kabutops
Porygon2
Scrafty
Smeargle
Bronzong


Rules
~Post intelligently. Posts without any explanation or reasoning will not be tolerated
~No flaming
~Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
~No talk about editing the OFFICIAL Smogon tier lists.

Happy posting ♪♪

 
Last edited:

Jirachee

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so I took over

Regarding S rank, I think I'll leave those 3 in there with nothing else. I don't think there's anything comparable to these 3 guys in viability and I want the list to represent that. Breloom, Alakazam, and Landorus-T are 3 really good Pokemon but I don't think they're quite as good as the "big 3", and for that reason I put them at the top of A+. Politoed (rain) and Jirachi were better when Sand + Spikes weren't so popular so I put them in high A+ rank.

Regarding the bottom of A+, I moved Heatran to it and I think both Hydreigon and Kyurem-B deserve to be there. Heatran is one of the most consistent pokes in the tier and it handles a lot of things that not much else really can, while both Hydreigon and Kyurem-B put a LOT of pressure on very popular playstyles. Both have really good Scarf sets that give offense a lot of trouble and if you haven't tried them out you should do so!

Also, regarding Excadrill, I put it in B+. I saw it do work against some teams last Tour weekend although it could just be new mon hype. I'm not really convinced it's on the same level as stuff like Latias, Tentacruel, or Gastrodon. I think that it's fair to compare it to stuff like Salamence or Toxicroak though.

I'll try to get an update in before next SPL starts. Have fun discussing!
 

trc

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i like this ranking, a lot actually, nominating zapdos to c rank though, from a lot of use of it and against it the subroost set owns, it shits on rain and also a lot of sand teams with toxic spikes support, it is actually a real tornadus check and it stalls out most of its defensive answers, the stuff immune to tspikes like ferrothorn gets its attacking moves stalled out while heatran is easy to wear down.

i'd prolly but kyu-b down to a, i know some people think it's better than hydreigon b/c it can react to meta trends whereas hydreigon only thrives in this sand spikes reuni metagame because of its sr neutrality/spikes immune/pursuit resistance/dark stab, but at least while that's what the meta consists of, it deserves this ranking. if your a+ rank is in order i would move lando-t below all of latios and above, you could possibly split a+ in half and scale everything back one rank b/c it's kinda big right now. also slowking would be cool in a-, it's rly good rn
 

M Dragon

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There are probably too many A+ mons
Exca should be A at least, it is broken, but most people are still using shitty sets like mold breaker when sand rush in a rain team can rape nearly sand offense team and sand force in sand has no safe switching

Mons like Hydra or Kyu should not be A+ (dangerous threats, but they are not comparable to latios for example)

I would only include top threats like latios, lando, kazam, loom, reuni, jira, politoed and maybe scizor in A+

Also mons like Mew or Latias are better than Mamo
 
Breloom

Breloom should raise to S rank,spore is broken even more with BW mechanique (sleep turn reset everytime you switch or grass type can be spored)
Breloom technician is really good as lead in HO team (you know this one with dnite/starmie/volca ect) since you put in sleep one thing and just click A also u can use the focus punch + fighting gem its hard to use it but it can fuck thing like jirachi who want to switch in bullet seed or thing like that.
Breloom toxic orb version is more used on balanced team and sometime in rain,spore/drain punch/seed bomb or the spedef one with sub/protect/leech seed or the most scariest one the bulk up variant.
You can use it as voltturn check (lando-t/rotom) or just as ferro/hippo/gastro/jelli counter ect

This thing definively should raise to S rank.
 
&
from A+ to A

They are really good, but a bit too high, seeing them in the same rank as Latios is curious. Thy are really great to what they are supposed to do but are deadweight when they don't face the correct archetype (defensive for mixed, offensive for scarfs).

A rank fits perfectly to them.

from A to A+

It breaks my heart to see it that low, CB Terrakion is still a monster, it has no switch ins, it's maybe weak to spikes but also abuse them. If a Terrakion predicts good, then you loose a mon evrytime it gets on the field. The scarf variant is still one of the best finisher / revenge killer of the metagame, it outspeeds +2 Dragonite and every +1 other threat (Gyarados and Volcarona to name the most dangerous).

SD Terrakion is really hard to take hit from, especially for defensive builds when their fastest mon is Jellicent.

It should be A+.

from A to A-

Seriously, this is not good anymore, it's a really poor switch in to water attackers, it's good at luring Ferrothorn or Gastrodon with the good Hidden Power, but that's all.

&
(&
?) from A- to A

Not sure about Gengar, but Hippo is a great wall to a lot of things, sure it has drawbacks, but it's good at what it is supposed to do. Mew can win from matchup, seriously, a ton of builds are weak to it, it's a bit hidden in the meta, but it is still really great.

from B to B+

Being faster than Alakazam, Latios and Gengar and being able to Pursuit them is something great, and seeing it being ranked under Abomasnow or Forretress is curious. It has a small niche but is still a great mon.

from C to B+

big jump, i've been playing with it recently and have been surprised by how effective it was, seed flare / earth power / hp fire / rest is a really great moveset, Shaymin has a decent bulk and the ability to hit a lot of things hard. It defenitely deserves an higher rank.

I am also not sure about a lof things in lower rank, Heracross, Azumarill and Infernape being ranked lower than Virizion, Conkeldurr, Cobalion and Feraligatr looks wrong. Quagsire is probably a bit too high as well.

By the way,
is fine as A+, I dont feel like it is as strong as the big 3 being S atm.

If you want to create a S- rank, then yea, Breloom would fit, alongside Alakazam and Jirachi.
 
Kyurem Black should go to A. the lack of speed and average move-pool that generally relies on special move to create good coverage hurt his ability to attack. He also has the stealth rock weakness which really cripples his ability to switch into attacks due to the loss of 25%, and a below par for an attacker speed(base 95). Granted he doesn't carry the weakness to ice like most other dragons and he has an base 170 attack not to mention is decently bulky, but these don't out weigh the problems he brings with him. He should sit well with mons in A.

Shaymin carries the unique ability to take on generally standard sand builds and rekt them. but I wouldn't take him to B+ because he seems to be limited to your one set, baha, and the set's coverage is beaten by dragons or steal, depending on HP ice or HP fire. He also doesn't carry the speed or special attack to be a truly devastating force in the OU though. Yet with that said he does have his positives which first one is seed flare which totally outclasses Celebi's seed flare. and he doesn't carry a dark/ghost weakness and the 4x bug weakness that Celebi is cursed with. SO with that said I see him placed very well in B group.

Terrakion should be seen to the A+. He is an offensive monster whose limited movepool is all he needs to rape and pillage the tier. rock polish sets can totally rape a team( generally a 180 speed and the rest in attack, adamant,) CB set really enjoys being almost un-counterable and able to break most counters on a predicted swap. Really most of his counters struggle to continually switch into his attacks and are then force to rely on his greatest weakness, entry hazards. This is probably his greatest flaw but with Excadrill unbanned we can now have an even easier time keeping hazards clear. his other weakness include being a little bit on the frail side and he has a glaring weakness to fight types which means he loses to the ever popular Breloom through Mach Punch. but with all that his raw power and great speed grant him a spot amongst the A + crew.
 
i know she's mostly passive and was more niche but chansey isn't in the same tier as shit like cobalion and conk. everyone knows what chansey is good at by now and she's pretty much always been good at that. the fact she just flat shuts down a fair amount of mons in the tier and learns stealth rock, wish, and bell in addition to status should rightfully put her in B tier at the very least.
 
I strongly believe that Jirachi is worthy of being ranked alongside the current top 3 in S Rank. Not only is it one of the strongest mons in the tier but it's also one of the most defining.

It's one of the best Latios counters, one of the best Tornadus counters, and is a solid check to a number of other difficult Pokemon such as Alakazam, Kyurem-Black, and Reuniclus. Mix SR sets in particular are extremely strong right now as they give offensive teams a great way of setting Stealth Rock and checking these dangerous mons without losing momentum. Its ability to lure potential checks with moves like Icy Wind for Chomp/Lando, Grass Knot for Hippo/Gastro, and Thunder for Skarm/Waters makes it almost impossible to truly counter, despite its main role being that of a support/utility mon. It also has a ton of other viable sets, most notably Rain CM which essentially forces teams to run a sturdy Ground type or Heatran just to cover it. Definitely S Rank material in my opinion.

Other smaller things I'd personally change:

Starmie low A+ -> high A+: Incredibly good offensively, good support mon with Scald on balance/stall, and is by far the best Spinner in the tier.

Volcarona mid A+ -> low A+/high A: Arguably the most threatening late game sweeper but requires a lot of support and is pretty much useless in some games.

Dragonite mid A -> high A/low A+: Still one of the most threatening sweepers (Yache DD is underrated), great revenger (CB in particular), and has a number of effective niche sets such as Bulky Sub and Hugo's Ice Beam lure set.

I'd also place Kyurem-Black > Hydreigon (Choice sets make up for Kyu-B's inferior mix set) and Tornadus > Mamoswine and Thundurus-Therian (Flying is one of the best offensive types in the game, Rain is starting to become really strong again, and priority Tailwind is a nice way of checking stuff late game).

As for lower ranks, I agree with McMeghan's post about adding Lapras, Magneton, Tangrowth, and Zapdos to C or D rank. I've also seen Seismitoad used effectively in Tour so that might be worth considering for C/D Rank.
 

M Dragon

The north wind
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Btw you have 70% of current OU ranked as A- or better, and 1/3 of OU is A+ or S
That is too much, you should use B rank as well for those mons (and moving current B to C and current C to D)
 
Kinda agree w/ Mdragon about too much things being in A tier.

Here's what I would change :

Volcarona : Mid A+ -> High A. Yes this thing is the scariest mon in BW but it needs support, here's why I'd put him in A

Hydreigon : Low A+ -> High A. It's a great mon but it'll end up being quite useless vs some offense team.

KyuremB : Low A+ -> High 1. Same reasons than above.

Mamoswine : A -> Low A-. We don't see a lot of mamoswine those days and it isn't that great. yeah it can setup SR and has a decent atk but i feel like it was too high. I think even High B+ should be decent for him

I think Mew & Gengar should be in high A-. Both provide a great presence, being able to stallbreak a lot of teams. Both of them using Wow like no one in the tier being able to wreck some huge threats.

Excadrill : B+ -> A. It's a great mon w/ the meta rn. Rain set w/ Sand rush is able to completely destroy any Sand offense team and Sand Force under Sand hits like a truck. It's also able to spin and adds a great typing to teams using it. I definitely think it should be ranked higher than B+

Moltres : B -> C. Needs too much support to be in B rank. One of the main reason to play it to counter sun in rain is gone. Think it should be a C rank mon.

Metagross : B -> C. Overrated pokemon, I feel like it never does what people want it to do, access to Pursuit isn't that great and the CB set can't do much against Jellicent / Skarm that are played a ton those days. Feel like it should be lower than B rank (maybe B- tho)

Victini : B-> B-. With sun gone, it is really less good. Not being able to sweep teams w/o a lot of support. Should go to B- I think.


I also would like to rate Clefable. This pokemon is one of the best Twave user right now to help mons that need it. It's a great support and it can completely nullify some threats like Alakazam. It also has Magic Guard, which has proven to be one of the best ability in BW right now
 

trc

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yeah after thinking about it there isn't actually much issue with having too many pokemon in a rank, i used to feel this way so i don't know why i was concerned with there being that many, especially if it became hard to justify anything actually changing outside of "the rank looks too big". i am in agreement with the majority here that kyurem-b and hydreigon should move down to a rank; while i still think that hydreigon is more potent in the current metagame than kyurem-b, it makes sense that they are not pokemon comparable with other pokemon in their rank, like the previously mentioned latios.

i don't think moltres should drop, it isn't necessarily only used as an anti-sun tool, the sub + wow set can be really difficult to deal with for a lot of teams, flying stab is killer and it functions on both rain and sand as steel said. in agreement that clefable is awful, it doesn't have the typing of xy and the attacks it had to withstand are far stronger than in dpp, it is super easy to take advantage of, its bulk is poor and it hardly actually beats anything relevant

tangrowth is awesome, it takes on keldeo worse than amoonguss but it is far more offensively potent and the physical bulk comes in handy, it beats garchomp far easier than amoonguss can while also being way more difficult to switch into and it is a lot harder to take advantage of by substitute users, hazard setters, and setup sweepers in general.
 

M Dragon

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What is the point of viability rankings if you place nearly every ou mon in A?

If bw is a centralized metagame, then there shouldnt be many mons in S and in A+, so what steelphoenix said makes 0 sense

A should be top threats that don't dominate and/or shape the metagame as much as the S tier mons, not just nearly every viable mon, so most B tier mons are nearly never used or not relevant
 

Century Express

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Hmm, I've always seen Latias as a B+ material, what do you guys think about it? I don't know, but i always have a feeling which Lati gets harder and harder to pull off on the actual meta. I mean, it's a bit frustrating to use a CM set-up sweeper which tends to lose a lot against Ranky, and usually get hard walled or Pursuit 'd by Ttar (whenever it tries to check Keldeo, Terrak or Loom) or getting walled by Jirachi or Ferrothorn, popular on a lot of teams for a good reason, and the recent Sun nerf reduced a bit her utility against it, so it fits better on B-Rank IMO.

I agree with Jirachi for S-Rank, really flexible mon in both defensive / offensive aspects, amazing switch-in against Ranky | Zam | Gar especially when it's SpD, and on the offensive aspect there are a lot of good combinations, like Toxic Spikes + CM on Rain teams, Scarf sets are really useful not only for momentum, but to Healing Wish as well, a kind of support really aprecciated on DragMag or offensive squads usually. Lure or Wish variants are really convenient on a lot of teams as well. Even with a few flaws, it fits on so much playstyles that it makes it S-Rank worthy.

Maybe it's me, but i guess Kyurem-B fits better on A instead of A+, kinda on the fence about Hydreigon, i might try to explain it later i guess
 
I don't like the look of the A+ rank either. It's not much the size as it is the Pokemon that stand in it together. Kyurem-B and especially Hydreigon shouldn't be sitting with a 110 Speed Latios. And Volcarona is dangerous, but needs a lot of support and usually a chance to set up. Too much to instantly say it's A+.
 

M Dragon

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Actually, you're wrong. A metagame is centralized when a smallish group of Pokemon tower over the rest in terms of viability, making the Pokemon in the lower ranks difficult to use by comparison. It's the same reason why all the good mons occupy S+ through mid A in the Ubers viability ranking thread.
No.
If a metagame is centralized, then it means that there are few relevant options, so those few relevant are the S and A mons (where S are the mons that shape the metagame and A are top tier mons)
Good mon that is not a top tier is B or worse, not A

Aside from possibly a few cosmetic changes, it's logical for A+ to be this dense because the Pokemon in that rank are simply much more spash-able and effective than the Pokemon in lower ranks, unless you're attempting to insinuate that something like Jellicent should be grouped in the same rank as Latios (it shouldn't).
If A is very dense, then it means that there are a lot of top tier threats, which means there are a lot of really good options. A metagame with a lot of really good options is NEVER centralized.
No what I am trying to insinuate is the opposite: that mons like Latios (top threat) shouldnt be ranked with mons like Hydreigon (a mon that is a pain in some situations but that loses to a lot of the most used mons like Keldeo, Garchomp, Latios)

What I am saying is that atm we are placing too many mons (nearly every OU mon) in only 3 ranks, when we should probably use at least 4 or 5 different ranks (A and B ranks) for those mons.
 
If Jirachi doesn't get S rank which I second Ciele's nomination for it, then Jirachi should at least be sitting on the top of the A+ group. I would say all the reasons for Jirachi going S but Ciele already stated them except for the Scarf rachi set which proves to be a excellent Dragon counter for H.O. teams. Jirachi is really a defining mon in the meta.
 
Yeah, Jirachi's versatility is almost second to none. S rank or at least top A+ imo. Great typing, checks an incredible amount of things in one teamslot, and can be an incredibly nuisance with the Sub CM set in Rain using most defensive rain checks as set-up fodder. Scarf is a real pain for DragMag and Hyper Offense teams in general. Top A+ or maybe even S.
 

McMeghan

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For what it's worth, I prefer M Dragon's vision of the rankings. As of right now, the B rank is pretty much consisting of niche Pokemons that you only see once in a while, outside of some exceptions that you will encounter more often like Magnezone. Altho to be fair, you could say the same thing about the other Viability Rankings... I would at least drop a bunch of A+ Pokemons.

Highly agree on Jirachi in S, see Ciele's post. I'm on board with his other propositions by the way.

Disagree on Breloom in S Rank.

Agree on Hydrei/Kyurem/Volcarona in A instead of A+.

Disagree on Rotom-W in A-. Still a momentum machine and a great glue. It's only bad when you rely on it to check half the meta (because it kinda does in theory). Kinda see it like ADV Pert which obviously gets worn down a lot, but it's still there to avoid getting wrecked early game by a few dangerous threats like Starmie or Keldeo.

Agree on Mew in A. Stallbreaker is solid, altho is often hard pressured as soon as hazards kick in, but the NP sets are also pretty good on top of the Taunt one.

Mamoswine needs to move down to A-, it shits on everything in theory but there are a lot of natural counterplay in the metagame. It's also extremely prediction reliant, making it quite inconsistent. The most annoying thing with Mamo is that there are lot of situations where you have to predict between Ice Shard or EQ. Sure, you deal a ton of damages with the stabs, but Ice Shard is resisted by a lot of dangerous threats and every good teams carry EQ immunities. So basically if you mispredict, you do pretty much 0. It also struggles vs a few top tiers (Skarm, Ferro, Reuni) and has awful weaknesses.

Disagree on Hippo in A, hazards bait and a huge momentum sink.

Disagree on Shaymin in B+, it's pretty much always hard-walled by something and has a hard time staying healthy and dishing damages. Maybe higher in C or somewhere in B-.

Agree with H-C on Moltres, Metagross and Victini dropping. I'd put all of them in B-, if not C for Metagross.

Agree on Zapdos in C/D, I had brought it up in the previous thread.


I'd move up Latias to A, LO is kinda average, but CM sets are deadly with T-Spikes, Dug or Magnezone. Healing Wish/TWave LO are also quite good in Offenses, offering a rather unique niche for them. At least Top A- if not A (I consider Latias a much better Pokemon than Thundurus-T). EDIT: forgot to mention it's amazing at spreading Paralysis since it attracts Ttar/Jirachi/Skarm like magnets, which is highly appreciated by the infamous Reuniclus. One of the easiest tier's strategy.

I think Dugtrio is useful in pretty much every match-up and the ability to trap is so fearsome in general. Still useful in Rain too. Would move it up to higher B or B+.
 

Finchinator

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OU & NU Leader
The reason as for why Jirachi was moved to A+ in the OP was likely due to the fact that the Special Defensive variant has decreased in viability significantly due to it being one of the biggest spike bait pokemon in the tier. With this said, the mixed SR sets are still versatile, unpredictable, and threatening while the Calm Mind variants are still threatening on rain. The aforementioned in conjunction with Scarf Jirachi still being decent (some may say it's falling out of favor for Scarf Landorus-T, which is arguably true, but their niches don't entirely overlap and Scarf Jirachi still sees itself getting decent usage) and sets like EBelt/lefties 4a being used on occasion leads me to believe that Jirachi probably still deserves its slot in the lower portion of S rank (this isn't even mentioning the utility of checking psychics types across the tier, which is huge). With that said, I'm not too opinionated on the matter, so I'm fine with either A+ or S really, but I'd lean S if I had to.

As for A+ and some other ranks being "too full", I feel like that's more of an indication that the metagame is "too full" of threats that are quite good and unless we wish to restructure thee definitions of the rankings and change our standards for viability that have been precedented for years, then the current status of this threat should be maintained given that it accurately reflects the BW2 OU metagame. Steel and MDrag are essentially arguing over the definition of centralization moreso than the actual issue of if change is necessary or not and this is because MDrag derailed discussion by making a generalized claim on the ranks without proposing specific changes, which is what he should have done. Instead of people complaining about the structure of the thread or the ranks, maybe they should propose specific changes - if those changes happen to 'fix' the crowded ranks, then great..if not, then maybe they're ok as it is and you're just nitpicking a bit too much!

Agreeing with Ciele and others on Volcarona moving down in A+ and Starmie moving up in A+. Personally, I believe that Starmie should be below Skarmory and above Scizor (where Volcarona currently is) because it is by far the best spinner in a tier where Spikes have taken over, it provides an unparalleled offensive presence with the LO set (especially on rain teams or when facing rain teams with it as it can be fit onto weatherless HO or even sand), and while the bulkier variants aren't exactly trending at the moment, they still are worth using at times and get the job done (small note: I've been digging toxic max HP Starmie on teams that want to get rid of hazards and wish to cripple/eventually get rid of Jellicent, works best on bulkier sands with hazard vulnerabilities I believe). With all of this taken into consideration, a jump up 2 or 3 slots is probably for the best, especially considering all the "omg Reuniclus is too good" hype has died down a bit, making Starmie's rise above it more realistic. As for Volcarona, it is far too needy of support to be a high A+ pokemon, even if there is always that one variant that can fuck over teams...you need a spinner, you need to have the specific coverage to break through the opponent, you need to get a free turn to set up which isn't easy to come by given how fragile Volcarona is and how some offensive teams can keep up momentum, you potentially need hazards of your own up, you potentially need to wear down opposing threats to the extent that Volcarona can clean up, and you need to do this all without totally ruining your position in the game overall..which is quite the heavy request given the volume of support necessary. Yes, Volcarona is potent and probably the deadliest sweeper in the tier, but that doesn't mean it is the best one and it certainly doesn't mean it should be the highest one in viability, so a drop to one of the lower slots in A+ (maybe where Starmie is now..or even below Heatran, one slot doesn't really matter too much) is warranted.

Breloom is a really solid pokemon and it can be threatening offensively with technician sets while it can be annoying defensively with some bulkier, but slightly less common, poison heal sets..not to mention that it has access to the godsend known as Spore - I agree with this wholeheartedly and understand why it is in A+ rank to begin with. However, I don't think it has the metagame defining influence or even the overall niche to even be considered for S rank. From the perspective of someone who has played a bit more sand balance than he has weatherless offense as of late, maybe my opinion is a bit skewed, but the Shroom doesn't seem too much better than it was beforehand and even then, it would have a ways to go to make it into S rank, imo. So yea, I don't see any reason to move this up and I think it's placed well where it currently is in A+.

Not too big a fan of Kyurem-B in the current metagame due to the extreme hazard vulnerability, but it does still pack the firepower that so many things wish they had, so I'm fine with it staying put. However, I think that Hydreigon deserves its spot right in front of it because it has, of late, been trending quite a bit more than Kyurem-B and that's for good reasons: better typing, fares far better against hazards, can 'nuke' things with draco, pretty much unlimited movepool, rare utility in moves like Taunt that it can pull out, and completely destroys bulky cores (not saying Kyu-B does, but Hydre does so a bit more reliability given the survivability it possesses due to other characteristics I mentioned above). This point is pretty insignificant because it's just over 1 slot in the lower A+ rank, so Ill drop it here, but I think it's fine as is tbh.

Mamoswine should drop to A-. I don't think I've seen one of these in ages and while it ravages through teams if it gets an opportunity, the swine is never getting opportunities because it provides so little defensive presence and there are so many other things to use right now..it just never really fits and it isn't too amazing when it's used in the first place due to shaky bulk and all. Given that it can still be a threat and it's relatively untested in the new meta, I will not ask for it to drop down any further, but mid A- is where it belongs for now, imo.

I think Moltres is fine where it is. It's quite the threat to a lot of teams simply because it's unprepared for and brings a lot to the table. The major downside is, of course, the horrible SR weakness and the need for quite a bit of support. If you guys all believe that the cons outweigh the pros enough to warrant a drop, then I won't defend it too much, but I think that it hasn't lost much viability and it has always done a fairly good job when used despite needing support, so it was fine in B, but maybe that's just me.

As for other lower ranked pokemon, I could see Metagross and Victini both dropping a rank, but I haven't used either too much and this is solely based on what I've seen (which isn't much simply because neither is too common) and what conclusions I can draw based off of the state of the current metagame, so I will avoid making too much of an argument based off of theory and simply state my opinion here.

Finally, agreeing with McMeghan on Latias moving up. The extra bulk on the offensive sets can come into play and make it worth using over Latios sometimes, specifically on teams who need a bit more of a Keldeo/water check, while the Calm Mind variants truly set it apart and give it a niche that warrants a low A rank. Won't go into too much depth or detail since this post is already long, but I'd put it above Rotom-W (which could maybe drop A- itself, but I won't push too strong for it) and below Tornadus.
 

Jirachee

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no, the reason jirachi dropped wasn't because of the sdef set alone. although yes that set is absolutely terrible right now

Jirachi has many sets, but they all share some issues. The biggest one is being incredibly weak to Spikes. Some of its sets are also a free invitation for Spikers to set up which isn't helping. Take the popular Shuca set for example. It can't do anything to stop Ferrothorn from coming in and stacking up hazards and Leech Seed and whatever it wants without fearing anything. The Scarfer has to always U-turn if it wants to avoid giving Skarmory / Ferrothorn free set up, and if you face Rocky Helmet Skarmory / Ferro, there goes that. Not to mention that if they're on the same team as Rocky Helmet Garchomp then any move you pick has a really good chance of boning you.

Sure, it can run a lure set but then it has to give up its best advantages, like being able to set up Stealth Rock, Healing Wish, or Choice Scarf's Speed. The compromise doesn't always work in your favor either because Heatran WILL wall any Jirachi set that doesn't run Drain Punch or HP Ground... and if you do run those, then you lose to 1 million other things, which is why they are practically never seen.

CM sets are alright, especially SubCM, but they have the very nasty downside of letting in Garchomp at a very low cost, and that's never a good thing. The fact that almost every team has a Ground type now doesn't help either, if it's not Garchomp, then Landorus-T or Gliscor will give CM Jirachi a run for its money.

The Scarf set used to reign over BW but now it has a lot more competition. Landorus-T can run a Scarf set that is not only immune to Spikes but also a million times stronger because 145 atk stab earthquake. Scizor can actually Pursuit Alakazam so it doesn't stick around and never die which is how it usually beats Jirachi.

Also any Jirachi that's not SpDef is a mediocre Latios check, because Specs Draco Meteor does around 50% which means it can only switch in once. Unlike Tyranitar or Scizor, there's no Pursuit to keep it from switching out and coming back later for a free kill.

Yes, Jirachi is a very good Pokemon, which is why it's A+, but it does have flaws, and its positive traits aren't enough to make it as good as Garchomp, Keldeo or Tyranitar are.
 
do u know why every team has a ground type??? it's almost solely because of jirachi and that alone speaks of its presence imo

the scarf comparison to landorus-therian is so silly. everyone knows that scarf eq is pretty bad for a reason, and the pokemon jirachi checks with scarf and landorus-therian checks with scarf aren't really comparable. i almost never use scarf land-t anyway since i find it to be hella wasteful, so juxtaposing the mons and making land-t seem like a typically superior option seems like a fruitless effort. scarf sciz isn't really comparable either since it fails to revenge kill dragonite and, to a lesser extent, garchomp. u only use scarf sciz if u have those mons covered; scarf jirachi is on offenses that are dragonite prone. it has a distinct set of characteristics and it's not rly fair to set it aside for x y and z when they fail to do what it does better... i agree subcm jira isn't the best set ever, but it's almost exclusively used on rain which makes getting rid of ground types way more easy than presented; garchomp and land-t aren't infallible behemoths by any means. u also use subcm jira if u are in need of a lead vs breloom which is, quite frankily, difficult to fit on a lot of teams. heatran's naturally gonna wall most jirachi, but even garchomp is dicked by skarmory and keldeo fails to break through common antimeasures a lot.. 'lure' sets aren't really for 'luring'; it's just that jirachi needs x coverage on y team to succeed; it's one of the best sr'rs in the tier since it can overcome starmie (which garchomp, heatran, tyranitar, and landorus-t fail to do.. lol @ sr ferro) and it can check some super dangerous pokemon. the ability to check tornadus is huge too, and it really 'always' does something in most games and i find it to be s.
 
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Lutra

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I apologise in advance for the lack of concreta.

Let's say Pokémon viability ratings are analogous to usages from a significantly large sample, and similar ratings are grouped into ranks.

If ranks are large, this suggests many ratings are roughly the same. This state of evenness is referred to as diversity, and the opposite or unevenness is referred to as centralization. If ranks are far apart in ratings, this also suggests centralization.

steelphoenix 's claim is that the viably sufficient Pokémon, that are labelled as being members of a tier, mostly have high ratings, and most of the ones not labelled as members of the tier, have low ratings, and this suggests that the 'metagame' is centralized.

So, what are we talking about here? We're talking about state of unevenness when we compare the ratings of the members of the tier with the potential members of the tier, i.e. comparing with the rest of the Pokémon in the tier category (BL, UU, BL2, RU etc).

This hasn't got anything specifically to do with lots of Pokémon belonging to S rank or A rank, since the B rank could have slightly lower ratings than the A rank, and only a gradual decline would occur (consistent with moderate diversity). What would show this type of centralization is a dropping off the cliff of the ratings of a large quanity of Pokémon in ranks B and lower.

M Dragon 's approach, which I agree with, is that the S-B ranks should contain the members of the tier (or what would be the members), so it's easy to see what Pokémon are deemed sufficiently viable within each tier environment corresponding to a tier's Pokémon viability ranking thread.

Whether S rank and A rank contain too many Pokémon is irrelevant if we're talking about centralization across the tier category, since it's based on the proportion of those in lower ranks (and their decline in ratings) compared to those in higher ranks. But if we're conveying centralization within S and B ranks, the drop-off in ratings needs to be visibly high (indicated by rank definitions) and S(-A) relatively smaller in size compared to (A-) B ranks.

In conclusion, I feel the use of 'metagame' often lacks clarity.
 

Jirachee

the bad man
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One thing about viability rankings is that they're inevitably compared to each other.

You can't have a B tier full of OU Pokemon because most people associate B with less common, less viable Pokemon and that's how it is in practically every other lists. Take a look at the ORAS OU list, and you'll see that 90% of the OUs are A- or higher on that list too. That's just how it always has been. You can't decide to change the accepted standard on a whim because then you'll have a list that newcomers can't understand, and helping people learn the tier is half the reason these lists exist.

However, I do agree that there is too many pokemon in each A subrank, and for that reason, I've decided to divide A in 5 subranks rather than 3. This will help make the list more accurate and will also be easy for a newcomer to compare with lists they're more familiar with!

I've added the new subranks in the OP, btw.
 

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