BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Codraroll]

Looking at the stats, movepools, and abilities that are being released on Pokémon new and old, I can't help but think that a well-built team of six Pokémon from today's metagame would have no problem beating the entire OU of Gen. IV (split up in consecutive 6v6 matches without healing in between) or probably the entirety of the Pokémon available in gen. III, Ubers included.

There is a massive power creep going on. I'm really happy for the concept of lower tiers. It allows us to use the still-awesome Pokémon that just don't cut it into the "top 50".

 

[Bughouse]

I know it's hardly one of the new favorite toys, but I'm loving roost on Hydreigon. I've actually been running a subroosttoxic set to capitalize on hydreigon's good speed, bulk, and many resistances. Its been a great surprise factor. It can be run on a sun team with flamethrower/fire blast as the attack, or on a rain team with surf. Those moves are there in order to hit the majority of steels as best as possible, obviously struggling with either heatran or ferrothorn.

Resistances/immunities to 8 types means it usually sticks around for a while.

 

[Danger Mouse]

Techloom murder Hydra so I doubt it will see much usage.

So? Tornadus-T murders techloom, so I doubt anybody will use it either. (I don't actually think that...techniloom is fantastic) And techniloom can't switch into pretty much any move that hydreigon typically carries, so it can only function as a revenge killer.

With its massive special attack and incredibly diverse movepool, with the addition of its new toy superpower, Hydreigon is more lethal than ever. Honestly, I think it's one of the most underestimated Pokemon in OU. Now that it has roost it could even conceivably go bulky because it also has an extensive support movepool.

 

[Thorhammer]

To be honest, I'm having a lot of trouble using Techniloom effectively right now. Tornadus-T being everywhere definitely plays a part, but even without it, it's that hard to switch it in.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Ditto will be in OU don't worry about that, for the same reason why whimsicott was OU for a good 6 months. That can be said for all these new pokemon, the new Landorus is pretty disapointing.

 

[SJCrew]

Skarmory is a pretty shitty counter to Haxorus now, actually; +2 LO Superpower does anywhere from low 70s to 80s. If you want to list Skarmory as a counter to shit you really have to consider what he can kill with Brave Bird or not get 2HKOed by at +2 or else he's not phazing again. But then again, Skarmory outright countering a prominent physical attacker these days is such a rarity that we'll have to take what we can get at this point.

Techloom murder Hydra so I doubt it will see much usage.

Who cares, lmao. What are you switching in on? Draco Meteor? Fire Blast? Let me know when he can tank a good hit before you talk to me about what he threatens. (PS: Amoongus walls Breloom forever, might want to have a plan for that)

 

[Manaphy]

To be honest, I'm having a lot of trouble using Techniloom effectively right now. Tornadus-T being everywhere definitely plays a part, but even without it, it's that hard to switch it in.

IIRC, Techniloom can do 60% to Tornadus-t with Mach Punch, and about 70% with LO. You only really need a bit of prior damage on it, Stealth Rock helps.

 

[Thorhammer]

IIRC, Techniloom can do 60% to Tornadus-t with Mach Punch, and about 70% with LO. You only really need a bit of prior damage on it, Stealth Rock helps.

Well, that's once you get it in.

 

[Vemane]

chandelure is disappointing, I want to say, is when Dream World became more and more recognized is that it evolved past Chandelure. When building a team I rarely consider it to be a top-tier threat when I look at it. Sure, it can come in on Ferrothorn or Blissey and set up. But when you're liable to Spikes and Stealth Rock, both of which are extremely easy to set down in this metagame, your use is limited. It's Speed stat is lackluster as are its defenses. For example an Adamant 252 LO Techniloom has a pretty good chance to OHKO Chandelure with Stealth Rock in play. If it isn't Choice Scarf and it hopes to Sub down then that play is completely neutralized. If it is Choice Scarf then it can't switch in again. Albeit that's one example. However I don't feel that removing stall as a play style is honestly a bad thing. That is also to say that you think that just because Chandelure can trap Blissey it's instant GG. Far from the truth with pokemon like Tentacruel and Heatran playing valuable roles on stall teams.

The cm+flame charge sets are pretty garbage

I meant the choice scarf one.

Especially mid game, it can easily go in and out koing each poke.

It's not so much that it's broken, moreso that it is a complete bitch and completely changes the way people need to play (and the metagame itself to an extent) around it.

 

[android]

Techniloom takes 52.59% to 62.45% damage from Hydreigon's Dark Pulse, a resisted move.

252 SpAtk Life Orb Hydreigon (+SpAtk) Dragon Pulse vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Breloom: 117.94% - 138.93% (Guaranteed OHKO)

Mach Punch Breloom with a Life Orb isn't guaranteed a OHKO even with SR, and Hydreigon is immune to Spikes.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Hydreigon: 85.85% - 101.54% (12.5% chance to OHKO)

Breloom is not much of a hindrance to Hydreigon, he can't even switch into him. Even Earth Power can potentially 2HKO Breloom.

 

[alphatron]

Not in the Rain. Someone ran the calcs for a rain boosted Aqua Tail at either +1 or +2 with LO and it 2HKO's cleanly. What will Skarmory do in return? Brave Bird? Doubt it. Whirlwind? That is all it can do really. It can phazed it but it really isn't wallable anymore.

Skarmory is a pretty shitty counter to Haxorus now, actually; +2 LO Superpower does anywhere from low 70s to 80s. If you want to list Skarmory as a counter to shit you really have to consider what he can kill with Brave Bird or not get 2HKOed by at +2 or else he's not phazing again. But then again, Skarmory outright countering a prominent physical attacker these days is such a rarity that we'll have to take what we can get at this point.

Dang. How the mighty have fallen. Well, I guess skarmory can still wall landorus without smack down...ugh...

(PS: Amoongus walls Breloom forever, might want to have a plan for that)

Already have a plan and have been using it.

Breloom @ life orb
Nature: Naughty
252 Atk/252 spd
-Growth
-Mach Punch
-bullet seed
-hp fire

For sun teams because what the hell else. Skarmory is ohko'd by hp fire. 252/40 calm amoongus takes 80.6% - 94.9% from a +2 technician boosted hp fire which is a high enough chance to ohko with rocks up. The set is gimmicky as hell and lacks spore but it works nicely by removing the (currently) most popular breloom checks outright. Spore has been pissing me off with every single tornadus carrying sleep talk now anyway. Speaking of tornadus...

+2 Mach punch: 56.2% - 66.2%

Luckily regenerator keeps him healthy for checking purposes. As a counter, he is screwed by jolly breloom and low sweep after rocks. Thankfully, nobody is going to bother running jolly breloom (save for a few people).

 

[Masttershake]

Techloom murders Tyranitar so I doubt it will see much usage. Landorus murders heatran, thundurus and rotom murder gyarados, so I doubt, etc.

At least skarmory remains a good counter to haxorus. Can't say the same for hydriegon though.

Except Tyranitar is the best sandstorm summoner while Hydra is outclassed by lots of other dragons.

Edit: I also meant in the first few months of new mons release.

 

[alphatron]

Give your reasons and such.

 

[Jaetheho]

it should really be 135 BP.

60 x 1.5 (technician) x 1.5 (sun)

 

[Danger Mouse]

Except Tyranitar is the best sandstorm summoner while Hydra is outclassed by lots of other dragons.

Edit: I also meant in the first few months of new mons release.

Outclassed by other dragons at what, exactly? It functions best as a wall breaker, and no other dragon can perform that role as well as hydreigon, especially now that it has superpower for blissey and tyranitar.

Hydreigon is able to perfrom this function so well because not only does he have decent speed and massive special attack, but he has an incredibly diverse movepool to exploit.

Before you try and bring latios into this, because I'm sure you will, Hydreigon has a better movepool than latios, which is why it's a more effective wallbreaker. Latios would kill for access to fire blast, superpower, earthquake, flamethrower, focus blast, etc.

Hydreigon is good because it occupies a niche that no other dragon can pull off as effectively. It can sweep but it's best used to break down individual threats.

 

[android]

Latios would also kill for a resistance to Pursuit and a way to beat Ferrothorn or Tyranitar.

Hydreigon also has Taunt to beat Blissey and Chansey. There really isn't anything that can wall all of Hydreigon's sets. Latios can't boast that.

 

[Flashstorm1]

Out of curiosity, how have you guys been handling Tornadus-T? I've been using an offensive rain team my last few matches, and I have to say that it is tough switching into it more than a few times as STAB LO Hurricane, even when resisted, still hits hard. Furthermore, because of Regenerator, revenge killing Tornadus-T becomes more difficult as it can switch out and back in without much concern for Stealth Rock and the like.

On another note, Jirachi seems to be more or less the most effective counter to Tornadus-T. I've been using Rotom-W to switch into it, but alas, it gets 3HKOed by Hurricane after Stealth Rock even with full HP investment. Since I am not running Jirachi on my team, I am usually forced to sack something and try to scare it out, but as mentioned before, the strategy is futile in the long run because of its Regenerator ability.

Any thoughts?

 

[kiddu]

Outclassed by other dragons at what, exactly? It functions best as a wall breaker, and no other dragon can perform that role as well as hydreigon, especially now that it has superpower for blissey and tyranitar.

Hydreigon is able to perfrom this function so well because not only does he have decent speed and massive special attack, but he has an incredibly diverse movepool to exploit.

Before you try and bring latios into this, because I'm sure you will, Hydreigon has a better movepool than latios, which is why it's a more effective wallbreaker. Latios would kill for access to fire blast, superpower, earthquake, flamethrower, focus blast, etc.

Hydreigon is good because it occupies a niche that no other dragon can pull off as effectively. It can sweep but it's best used to break down individual threats.

Perks Hydreigon has over Salamence:

-STAB Dark-type attacks
-Stronger Fighting-type moves
-Stealth Rock neutrality
-Slightly better bulk (not factoring in abilities)
-Stronger with Special attacks
-Work Up to boost Special Attack
-Taunt to stop setup
-U-Turn
-Only 2x weak to Ice
-Pursuit resistance

Perks Salamence has over Hydreigon:

-Better abilities
-Higher offenses
-Dragon Dance
-Stronger with Physical attacks
-Resistance to Fighting attacks
-Wish on PO
-Flying-type STAB (not that it uses it)
-Hone Claws to increase accuracy (Fire Blast, Stone Edge, Aqua Tail, etc)

Unless I'm missing something here, it looks like Hydreigon wants to be more of a bulky offense type than a wallbreaker if it doesn't want to be outclassed.

 

[IcyMan28]

Perks Hydreigon has over Salamence:

-STAB Dark-type attacks
-Stronger Fighting-type moves
-Stealth Rock neutrality
-Slightly better bulk (not factoring in abilities)
-Stronger with Special attacks
-Work Up to boost Special Attack
-Taunt to stop setup
-U-Turn
-Only 2x weak to Ice
-Pursuit resistance

Perks Salamence has over Hydreigon:

-Better abilities
-Higher offenses
-Dragon Dance
-Stronger with Physical attacks
-Resistance to Fighting attacks
-Wish on PO
-Flying-type STAB
-Hone Claws to increase accuracy (Fire Blast, Stone Edge, Aqua Tail, etc)

Unless I'm missing something here, it looks like Hydreigon wants to be more of a bulky offense type than a wallbreaker if it doesn't want to be outclassed.

Mence and Hydreigon are completely different as wallbreakers and pokemon in general. Mence will never use its flying STAB, for one thing, and is more frail on the special side (and physical). As a wallbreaker, it either goes all out or uses the classic Roost/FB/DM/BB set. Hydreigon has much stronger special attacks (which are more important considering Blissey is really the only thing that can take them), and now has Superpower vs. Salamence's BB/Outrage so that it doesn't lock itself in. It can also feasibly run a Substitute to avoid status, whereas Mence loses 50% by doing so thanks to its Stealth Rock weakness.

Mence can do more things, but Hydreigon is far from outclassed as a wallbreaker.

 

[doughboy]

I would argue that Levitate is just as good as any ability an intimidate/moxie since you avoid an SR weakness while also avoiding all spikes damage. The most hazard resistant Pokes have Levitate and Hydreigon is apart of that club. Some of those perks don't even mean anything. Salamence never uses Flying Stab or Wish. Hone Claws is completely outclassed by Dragon Dance.

Personally I think Hydreigon is better than Latios, but it isn't true that Latios struggles with Blissey. Psyshock is awesome in that regard and it gets STAB. Latios has application for its secondary STAB while Hydreigon ussually doesn't.

 

[Danger Mouse]

Let's look at the dragons and their roles in OU:
Dragonite: Slow but bulky sweeper. Can run dragon dance or choice, and can abuse rain nicely. Can even run a parashuffler set. Probably the most versatile dragon with multiscale, but stealth rock weakness can limit its effectiveness.
Haxorus: All out physical attacker. Incredibly powerful but outsped by every other OU Dragon bar Dragonite, and frail so prone to being revenge killed.
Latios: All out special attacker. Has access to recovery and some bulk but a combination of limited movepool and weakness to pursuit hampers it.
Latias: Bulky special attacker. Not as outright powerful as Latios but with better bulk and myriad support options it is very effective.
Salamence: Powerful attacker that leans towards physical but can go mixed. Limited by stealth rock weakness and 4x ice weakness. Generally seen as a mixed or all physical sweeper.
Hydreigon: Wallbreaker with incredibly diverse movepool. Better at special attacking but can go mixed or even bulky. Almost impossible to switch into safely. Limited by weakness to U-Turn and Fighting.

All of the dragons of OU perform unique functions and have their own strengths and weaknesses. Their uses might overlaps somewhat, but no one dragon really fills the role of any other.

 

[IcyMan28]

^Well, WishMence does have some merit, but Multiscale Dragonite has taken over that niche somewhat.

Do keep in mind that with Superpower in its repertoire, mixed Hydreigon has far less issues with Blissey than it used to, and now has a more accurate attack against Tyranitar and Heatran.

 

[Danger Mouse]

I would argue that Levitate is just as good as any ability an intimidate/moxie since you avoid an SR weakness while also avoiding all spikes damage. The most hazard resistant Pokes have Levitate and Hydreigon is apart of that club. Some of those perks don't even mean anything. Salamence never uses Flying Stab or Wish. Hone Claws is completely outclassed by Dragon Dance.

Personally I think Hydreigon is better than Latios, but it isn't true that Latios struggles with Blissey. Psyshock is awesome in that regard and it gets STAB. Latios has application for its secondary STAB while Hydreigon ussually doesn't.

Honestly Latios' biggest enemy is tyranitar. If you run CB Pursuit, you're pretty much guaranteed to revenge kill Latios every time it uses draco meteor.

 

[Jerp]

Just throwing this out there, due to salamence getting moxie, a lot of them are scarfed w/ outrage... IMO, mence is used more as a late game clean up sweeper.

On a different topic, has anybody heard about garchomp potentially becoming ou again?

 

[Thorhammer]

On a different topic, has anybody heard about garchomp potentially becoming ou again?

We're not supposed to make assumptions about what will be banned or unbanned. However, in the DW OU tier, which OU now closely resembles, several Pokemon banned under more questionable circumstances were unbanned and seemed to do okay, Garchomp included. So it does seem like it and the others should get a second chance sometime in the near future, although that won't be immediate.