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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
i actually used to run physically defensive support tar with about 100+ in defense (i saw more utility in a def investment since tar already gets sand boost to its sdef, but that's a bit of a personal thing), and one of the things i could do was catch silly landorus thinking that they could ohko me with eq or hammer arm. even with sand force, neither was an ohko on me (and sand force landorus-I is stronger than landorus-t, so therian eq is not about to ohko either) so i could destroy them with ice beam even if i didn't catch them on the switch. granted i'd be crippled afterwards (like less than 10% hp remaining) but that's what wish support is for. i could also do some other hilarious stuff like taking two hits of outrage from various OU dragons.
that being said, bulky support tyranitar (they're the only ones that run special attacks) has a tough time because its moves don't hit all that hard without stab or investment. chances are i'd rather use stealth rock instead if i forced a switch and i had a free turn, so you're unlikely to be hit by ice beam on the switch (ymmv ofc). as for ice punch, tar doesn't use it in practice. physically offensive tyranitars would never run ice punch when they could run stone edge which hits many of the same mons, but also has stab. ice punch's main advantage in that case would be hitting stuff like gliscor because ice punch has so little base power, and there are other moves that present bigger competition for that slot (crunch, pursuit, superpower). in general i'd say yeah landorus t can take tyranitar on.
gliscor's disadvantage right now is that, although it actually has more physical bulk than lando-t, therian has intimidate which brings its bulk way above gliscor for the turn it switches in. that really extends the counter list a lot and forces way more switches. plus landorus-t hits harder and has a usable spatk stat for catching stuff with hidden power. gliscor's main edge right now is its access to poison heal and roost, and as a dedicated wall that gives it a good position over landorus, but as a bulky pivot on a balanced or offensive team, it's tough to justify.
EDIT: ddtar probably runs something like edge/crunch/fire punch. banded/scarfed tars will usually run superpower instead of fire punch because they switch in and out a lot anyway due to their choice item, and superpower hits WAY harder esp if it hits neutrally. then after superpower there isn't always room for fire punch, because a lot of them run crunch AND pursuit for mindgaming psychics. ddtar on the other hand can't run superpower since attack drops defeat the purpose of dd and it needs all the coverage it can get so running both crunch and pursuit is largely a nono. that leaves fire punch as the best option for the third slot
as far as i've seen though, it seems scarftar has always been the most popular offensive tar, although bw has seen a fair influx of bulkier tars as well that seek to survive a weather war and need more hp to do so. cbtar and ddtar are out there, sure, but not as common as scarf from what the stats and my experience suggest
that being said, bulky support tyranitar (they're the only ones that run special attacks) has a tough time because its moves don't hit all that hard without stab or investment. chances are i'd rather use stealth rock instead if i forced a switch and i had a free turn, so you're unlikely to be hit by ice beam on the switch (ymmv ofc). as for ice punch, tar doesn't use it in practice. physically offensive tyranitars would never run ice punch when they could run stone edge which hits many of the same mons, but also has stab. ice punch's main advantage in that case would be hitting stuff like gliscor because ice punch has so little base power, and there are other moves that present bigger competition for that slot (crunch, pursuit, superpower). in general i'd say yeah landorus t can take tyranitar on.
gliscor's disadvantage right now is that, although it actually has more physical bulk than lando-t, therian has intimidate which brings its bulk way above gliscor for the turn it switches in. that really extends the counter list a lot and forces way more switches. plus landorus-t hits harder and has a usable spatk stat for catching stuff with hidden power. gliscor's main edge right now is its access to poison heal and roost, and as a dedicated wall that gives it a good position over landorus, but as a bulky pivot on a balanced or offensive team, it's tough to justify.
EDIT: ddtar probably runs something like edge/crunch/fire punch. banded/scarfed tars will usually run superpower instead of fire punch because they switch in and out a lot anyway due to their choice item, and superpower hits WAY harder esp if it hits neutrally. then after superpower there isn't always room for fire punch, because a lot of them run crunch AND pursuit for mindgaming psychics. ddtar on the other hand can't run superpower since attack drops defeat the purpose of dd and it needs all the coverage it can get so running both crunch and pursuit is largely a nono. that leaves fire punch as the best option for the third slot
as far as i've seen though, it seems scarftar has always been the most popular offensive tar, although bw has seen a fair influx of bulkier tars as well that seek to survive a weather war and need more hp to do so. cbtar and ddtar are out there, sure, but not as common as scarf from what the stats and my experience suggest
That's exactly what they run -___- I was caught off guard when one used Fire Punch on my scarfed Moxie Heracross on the switch since i was expecting a Superpower on my Ferrothorn.
If someone could explain how to beat breloom with landorus, that would be excellent.
Also, has anyone tried using scrafty? It was the one poke I could always make work back in BW1. Aside from breloom, it seems to outspeed the therians with reduced speed and that tasty ice punch. Also, opinions on hydreigon and nidoking. Usable at all?
Also, has anyone tried using scrafty? It was the one poke I could always make work back in BW1. Aside from breloom, it seems to outspeed the therians with reduced speed and that tasty ice punch. Also, opinions on hydreigon and nidoking. Usable at all?
They're all VERY usable in OU. Hydreigon got Superpower, Roost, Dark Pulse, Earth Power, and more from the tutors. Superpower means the fat bitches cannot just come in and do what they want. Whores.
Nidoking just got Sheer Force from the Dream World and he has a ton of moves to abuse with a Life Orb.
Scrafty gets Dragon Dance. With its great bulk and good options for STAB moves, it can do pretty well. He was OU till the last tier change a month ago, but I have never used him competitively so I dont know all his options.
Stone RG
Megas are broke
Drizzle is just getting out of control, holy fuck i am done seeing stupid politoeds appearing like kyogre in ubers. I am serious what the hell was Gamefreak thinking about.
The additions that Gamefreak is bringing to rain are ridicoulus, to show how broken Drizzle is just look at Politoed, a mediocre pokemon in every sense of the word, that now is gonna surpass scizor, a pokemon that has been #1 in OU for a year.
Dont make me talk about the Therian formes, Thundurus-t is just as trolly as landorus, but MUCH more dangerous due to its set-up moves and 145 base sp att. Tornadus-T doesnt belong to OU at all, it hits half the meta for SE hits and the one that dont are hit hard by hurricane, bar for jirachi who seems to be tornadus's bane *cough* magnezone *cough*. Keldeo was overhyped, i admit it, but it still hits hard as fuck with either a calm mind under its belt or a terrakion-like specs set.
The additions that Gamefreak is bringing to rain are ridicoulus, to show how broken Drizzle is just look at Politoed, a mediocre pokemon in every sense of the word, that now is gonna surpass scizor, a pokemon that has been #1 in OU for a year.
Dont make me talk about the Therian formes, Thundurus-t is just as trolly as landorus, but MUCH more dangerous due to its set-up moves and 145 base sp att. Tornadus-T doesnt belong to OU at all, it hits half the meta for SE hits and the one that dont are hit hard by hurricane, bar for jirachi who seems to be tornadus's bane *cough* magnezone *cough*. Keldeo was overhyped, i admit it, but it still hits hard as fuck with either a calm mind under its belt or a terrakion-like specs set.
Nidoking was one of the first Pokemon to have its Dream World ability released and has been solidly UU since the beginning of BW. It's usable in OU, but not too threatening since basically everything else offensive is faster than it. It has a few key resists and immunities that make it barely viable, and of course coverage that can whomp on anything that isn't fat and pink.
So, magnezone is still useful, eh? I swear, once people start using it right...
At any rate, what kind of kingdras usually run around these days? I don't want to start another "usable in/out of rain" debate, it would just be interesting to see what the best set is for abusing the opponent's rain with.
At any rate, what kind of kingdras usually run around these days? I don't want to start another "usable in/out of rain" debate, it would just be interesting to see what the best set is for abusing the opponent's rain with.
Every single pokemon you listed up there is walled by Amoonguss bar Tornadus-T, which Jolteon says hi to. I agree, rain certainly has gotten some great new toys but nothing so dramatically OP that it knocked the metagame out of whack. Tyranitar does a good job tanking hurricanes and KO'ing back with SE. Scarfed Terrakion also handles the Genies and Pony well.
I don't see why the Sand Rush pokemon aren't seeing as much use. CB Stoutland is a monster in the sand, and sandslash is scary too, but of course people are freaking over rain.
If Politoed really bothers you that much, run your own Thundurus-T and troll your opponent by using their weather.
i don't quite agree with the idea of them all being OU. only hydreigon is solid OU material, the others both suffer from a serious lack of offensive presence. i will try and follow up to be clearer.
hydreigon has always had its niche in ou. with its infuriating speed tier (98 >_> cmon gamefreak, what's with all the mons between 95 and 100 this gen), it has a VERY tough time being a sweeper, esp since it gets no speed boosting moves a la dragon dance. less than 100 base speed just doesn't cut it anymore, unless you carry a scarf. as for scarf hydreigon, it works, but i've always preferred it as a wallbreaker because of its preposterous coverage and strong mixed attacking stats. hydreigon's coverage is markedly superior to latios's (fire blast/earth power/superpower/dark pulse are all good options), and the two are the best special attacking dragons in OU - latios's advantage ofc is its much superior speed. that tends to give hydreigon a great niche as a wallbreaker and imo it plays best with life orb/ebelt so that it can switch moves and abuse the coverage to dismantle defensive cores (MANY of which fall to hydreigon's coverage). on top of that, as gvon mentioned, it got superpower, which, backed by hydreigon's completely usable attack stat, will make a mess of blissey/chansey. hydreigon's poor speed means it won't be sweeping easily, but very very few things can claim to wall or hard-counter it. on top of that, hydreigon is one of the few dragons that gets uturn and/or levitate, and we already know how useful they are
nidoking... sadly nidoking just doesn't have ALL the stuff it needs to be OU. sheer force was a great boost for it because of its very good earth power/sludge wave/fthrow/ice beam/tbolt coverage (yes, i am aware that's five moves). all of those moves get sheer force boosts, which to some extent compensates for nidoking's lack of raw power and, except earth power, lack of stab (iirc, sludge wave is mainly to hit rotom-h neutrally in UU; otherwise it's not a great option). plus sheer force will block nidoking's life orb recoil on any of those moves, which lets you stack your way to a boost of about +70% (maybe +60% if the boosts are additive instead of multiplicative, idk what they are for sure). the problem is that nidoking's spatk and speed just... they just aren't that high. great coverage and sheer force boosts aren't enough for OU, when you've got base 85 spatk and 85 speed. it also has a niche in its typing, which resists terrakion's stab combo (but does not resist edgequake). however nidoqueen is bulkier so i think it would do that job better. either way, neither of them are straight up OU material. there are other mons in OU that can pull off a broadly effective combination (eg ice/elec/fight from stuff like thundy-t) but they have more speed and more spatk. it's tough to find an advantage for nidoking.
scrafty is one of my absolute favorite mons but the tier drop to UU should be sending some warnings about its OU viability. what does it have going for it? firstly, a great stab combo. fighting is a great stab right now, and if you add dark, toxicroak and heracross are the only resists. secondly, three FABULOUS abilities. shed skin gives it insurance against burn and lets it use rest semi-viably, and we all know how good moxie and intimidate are. and third, significant natural bulk thanks to 65/115/115 defenses. on top of that, scrafty has bulk up, and freaking dragon dance. the problem with scrafty is similar to the problem with nidoking though: 90 attack and 58 speed? you're not about to wipe up OU. scrafty has a max speed of 236. at +1 you can't outspeed starmie, and you're slower than freaking tyranitar, who with 61 base speed is among the slowest attackers in OU. you'd think scarf could get around that, but scrafty doesn't have the firepower to abuse a scarf - when it comes in, it doesn't hit hard enough. bulk up has its niche with scrafty's great defenses and access to rest+shed skin, but bulk up sets invest heavily in bulk, meaning scrafty needs several boosts to bring its subpar attack to a useful level - that's the same problem as dragon dance. ultimately that's its weakness: scrafty presents no offensive presence without a boost, and it tends to need multiple boosts to become a threat. with so many mons in OU that can boost, and yet don't need a boost to pose a threat, why run scrafty?
anyway yeah all 3 mons have their place, and don't get me wrong i have personal love for all of them, but only one can truly claim to belong in OU
EDIT: @below: porygon2 sounds like a very very interesting counter to tornadust. superpower is a 2hko not counting attack drops, so after two superpowers 0atk LO tornadus deals max 82%ish - not even a ko with stealth rock. 252 LO hurricane narrowly hits 50% so you have less than 1% chance to get 2hkod. 252 LO focus blast deals min 56% though, so it can 2hko (assuming it hits lol). plus you trace regenerator as you come in so you can always gtfo if you don't feel like sticking around. porygon2's 252+ ice beam vs 0- tornadus t (ie naive versions, which seems to be the norm when running superpower) is min 79% which is a ko after stealth rock and 2hko all the time. plus it's not damage that tornadus will be able to laugh off by regenerating since that still leaves like half its HP missing the next time it comes in. alternately, you can grab a download boost on the way in if tornadus-t is naive (194 sdef vs 196 def), which means your 252+ ice beam will definitely ohko and you pose a significant offensive threat after tornadus dies. (aside: uninvested ice beam still hits tornadus t for min 58%, and uninvested +1 ice beam is min87% with 1/8th chance to ohko). as far as the definition of counter goes, porygon2 is very solid. can't speak to its viability beyond that though because i haven't used it myself
I'd just like to point out that Magnezone isn't super hard for Jirachi to deal with. Calm Mind Jirachi can set up as Magnezone switches in, and Magnezone doesn't have the Special Defense to take boosted Water Pulses (or whatever move you're using) and can't OHKO in return. If you're that afraid of being trapped, Jirachi also has U-Turn to escape Magnezone's clutches. If you combine U-Turn Jirachi and Spikes, Magnezone is going to have a very short lifespan if it tries to trap and kill your Steels.
That brings me to my next point. All of Rain's biggest threats besides Tornadus-T are really crippled by entry hazards. Thundurus-T is SR weak and the rest are grounded. Combined with Ferrothorn and the declining popularity of Keldeo, setting up multiple layers of hazards isn't difficult and wears down Rain teams quickly. It's been my main method of dealing with Drizzle since the start of B2/W2.
Even if that wasn't true, complaining about Rain doesn't make it go away. Energy would be better spent looking for new ways to beat it. For example, I commented earlier about how Porygon-2 makes a pretty good Tornadus-T counter, but no one responded :( Try him out, I'd love to hear about other people's experiences with him.
Responses in bold
edit: On Scrafty. I have been a long time opponent of Scrafty and it took way to long to fall down into UU ._. To show you how weak it is a +1 Scrafty has about the same power as an Adamant Conkeldurr. It needed boosts to become a threat, but when can you could never pull that off when you are so weak to force something out
awwwwwwww yeah 600 posts
edit: On Scrafty. I have been a long time opponent of Scrafty and it took way to long to fall down into UU ._. To show you how weak it is a +1 Scrafty has about the same power as an Adamant Conkeldurr. It needed boosts to become a threat, but when can you could never pull that off when you are so weak to force something out
lmitchell0012
Wi-Fi Blacklisted
Arcanine gets outrage this gen, so salamence and co will have a harder time switching into you. I'm extremely disappointed that he wasn't given swords dance (or even work up). Oh...what could've been. Poor arcanine. You could say this about a lot of pokemon but for some reason I just feel really bad for him right now.
Jolteon still takes a lot of damage coming in on a Hurricane and Tornadus-T can just switch out. I'd use Metagross to check him personally. Metagross is a fantastic poke that should be used more.
Metagross is too slow and it's Stab sucks. Your stuck with a slow fourth move syndrome Pokemon that isn't even Sp. Defensively bulky. Jirachi is your safest choice to counter Tornadus at the moment. Lightning Rod Zappy with be great against the Genies.
Why is it that people dont talk about Kyurem? Its the greatest thing in OU at the moment.(exaggeration) It got earth power and roost. When I am on the ladder and facing a chansey, people are like: it got roost? It also makes a great scarf pokemon, being able to take down the therians, amoonguss and breloom(mach punch kills if stealth rock damage has been taken). It also OHKOs Dragonite through multiscale. With a modest nature and life orb, it is able to 2HKO specially defensive Jirachi with earth power. Its also a great way to beat rain teams. Its most infuriating set is the subroost set which drains off all the pp of moves which have 8pp or less(ones that break the sub in one hit such as gyro ball) and can also pp stall moves with 16 pp if those moves dont break the substitute in one hit. I would encourage people to try this out before saying that its bad. BTW Scizor can only switch into it once. Stealth Rock + LO Earth power = Scizor at less than 40%.
236SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem (+SAtk) Earth Power vs 248HP/0SpDef Scizor (Neutral): 48% - 57% (167 - 197 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 22% chance to 2HKO.
Also remember that most of the OU pokemon are hit hard by the combination of earth power + ice beam. Those bulky pokemon that arent can be pp stalled. My experience from the ladder tells me that some people are unaware of this. BTW if anyone wants to reply, please dont be too offensive. I just think that Kyurem is being ignored. So I ask, what are your opinions about Kyurem?
236SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem (+SAtk) Earth Power vs 248HP/0SpDef Scizor (Neutral): 48% - 57% (167 - 197 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 22% chance to 2HKO.
Also remember that most of the OU pokemon are hit hard by the combination of earth power + ice beam. Those bulky pokemon that arent can be pp stalled. My experience from the ladder tells me that some people are unaware of this. BTW if anyone wants to reply, please dont be too offensive. I just think that Kyurem is being ignored. So I ask, what are your opinions about Kyurem?
Who cares if it's slow and has sucky STAB moves. The same can be said for a lot of other pokemon. It has excellent coverage and priority and can even boost it's speed with Agility if you so desire and since I have actually used this mon in battle to check Tornadus-T, who is not going to stay in to eat a Thunder/Ice Punch I'd say that Metagross is one option for dealing with Tornadus-T, yours is another but the narrow-mindedness is silly.
yeah, I know Amoonguss doesn't wall Tornadus-T. That's why I said everything bar Tornadus-T.
most Tornadus-T's I've seen are choiced- even if it runs the risk of pursuit. Superpower for Tornadus-T is like Superpower for Scizor- it's really only supposed to hit a few pokes harder than Hurricane. Tornadus-T usually comes in and clicks hurricane right away, because the rewards are high and the risks are low. I understand that Ttar might be a shaky counter but it is one nonetheless. I'm also not saying that rain sucks, I'm just pointing out that it's not as OP as many people think.
As for Sand Rush, well that makes sense but still I would expect more usage than like 1 stoutland in 1/50 teams. CB Ice fang OHKO's all of the genies and return does a lot to anything that doesn't resist it.
252 SpA Heat Wave vs 252 HP/252+ SpD Metagross: 214-254 (58.79 - 69.78%)
Metagross is probably going to drop out of OU October 1st, which will be a very sad day.
There's no "narrow minded ness" it's a simple fact that even after an Agility boost Metagross fails to sweep in most scenarios, as to Jirachi has many more valuable sets. If your thinking cause I doubt Metagross effectiveness it's facts and usage based. It's barely OU. Also its my simple input that Jirachi is a better counter. No need for rudeness. lol
It would be really sad if metagross would drop down. He is a really good pokemon with great bulk, typing and movepool. The only thing holding him back are his stab moves but other moves like bullet punch or earthquake make up for it.
Metagross just doesn't have a niche in OU anymore. Its bullet punch is too weak to be all that effective (it doesn't get the sweet technician boost that scizor gets and steel has awful coverage)...it's too slow to really use an agility set effectively, and its lack of useful STABs and common weaknesses really hurt it.