Dragonite doesn't have the speed and raw destructive power that Salamence has. It's much bulkier and can run a plethora of support options, but what good is that with a double-weakness to Ice?
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Bye bye Latias! Bring in the apes...
- Thread starter firecape
- Start date
Yeah, I can see mence being banned, but I don't see it happening to Dragonite. Mostly because it needs to get TWO DDs up to get the destructive power that Mence has. True, it's stats will be higher than Mence after one DD, but the two turns of set up are something that most players don't allow to happen.
Everyone who's saying Dragonite is next for suspect, don't be stupid. Mence and DNite aren't even remotely similar in the way they're used, apart from the fact they're both dragons with access to DD.
Salamence has massive destructive power due to its higher attack stats and speed, so with just 1 DD it can outspeed pretty much anything without a scarf and hit it hard for good measure, while Dragonite is a bit bulkier, but a hell of a lot slower. Plus Mence has Intimidate which cuts its opponent's attack, so it can weaken physical threats quite efficiently, while Nite just switches in with no helpful ability whatsoever (OK, so Inner Focus makes Scarfrachi slightly less annoying, but apart from that it's pretty much useless). Dragonite also gets a few nice support moves (Light Screen, Heal Bell, T-Wave) so it can run bulkier sets that don't rely on pure sweeping power, while Mence's list of useful moves is mainly composed of attacking moves, which means that pretty much every Mence is designed to destroy as much as possible.
Tbh, even though personally I've never really had a problem with Mence (I've yet to face a good Mence player due to the fact that I don't ladder as often as a lot of you), I can see why it's a suspect, with that raw destructive power and the potential to 2HKO pretty much the entire metagame if used properly.
Now, as for the other changes that Latias's move upwards is gonna cause, my favourite Scizor counter, Zapdos, should be going up in usage without Latias being able to switch in and wall it. People are saying Starmie will be Latias's successor, and that makes sense, seeing as they have similar movepools and typing, although Starmie lacks the bulk of Latias and isn't as powerful. Its speed should help out in the long run though. For this reason, I actually think Scarftar will be more than just a fad, as it counters Starmie just as well as it did Latias.
Obviously, Infernape's free to do as it pleases now, without Latias coming in and sponging all its attacks and ending the fun. I think Blissey might just go down as well, simply because it doesn't need to wall Latias anymore and Infernape can pretty much always OHKO with a Close Combat (hell, even Specially-Based MixApe has a good chance after SR damage is taken into account).
Salamence has massive destructive power due to its higher attack stats and speed, so with just 1 DD it can outspeed pretty much anything without a scarf and hit it hard for good measure, while Dragonite is a bit bulkier, but a hell of a lot slower. Plus Mence has Intimidate which cuts its opponent's attack, so it can weaken physical threats quite efficiently, while Nite just switches in with no helpful ability whatsoever (OK, so Inner Focus makes Scarfrachi slightly less annoying, but apart from that it's pretty much useless). Dragonite also gets a few nice support moves (Light Screen, Heal Bell, T-Wave) so it can run bulkier sets that don't rely on pure sweeping power, while Mence's list of useful moves is mainly composed of attacking moves, which means that pretty much every Mence is designed to destroy as much as possible.
Tbh, even though personally I've never really had a problem with Mence (I've yet to face a good Mence player due to the fact that I don't ladder as often as a lot of you), I can see why it's a suspect, with that raw destructive power and the potential to 2HKO pretty much the entire metagame if used properly.
Now, as for the other changes that Latias's move upwards is gonna cause, my favourite Scizor counter, Zapdos, should be going up in usage without Latias being able to switch in and wall it. People are saying Starmie will be Latias's successor, and that makes sense, seeing as they have similar movepools and typing, although Starmie lacks the bulk of Latias and isn't as powerful. Its speed should help out in the long run though. For this reason, I actually think Scarftar will be more than just a fad, as it counters Starmie just as well as it did Latias.
Obviously, Infernape's free to do as it pleases now, without Latias coming in and sponging all its attacks and ending the fun. I think Blissey might just go down as well, simply because it doesn't need to wall Latias anymore and Infernape can pretty much always OHKO with a Close Combat (hell, even Specially-Based MixApe has a good chance after SR damage is taken into account).
I dare you to name even two.
I think the point in saying that DNite was a suspect was that every time you ban something from OU you low the power threshold that OU has. Like, Mence used to be fine, now if it gets banned, things that used to be overshadowed by it, or completely counter by it can shine, and soon people will be complaining and those also will get banned. Seriously, banning has more long term effect (And short term effects) than a lot of people thinks it has.
There are a few flaws with this:
- Stealth Rock is easy to prevent: Azelf and Aerodactyl are reliable Taunt leads and for a Pokemon like Salamence preventing Stealth Rock from being set up can be just as important as setting it up for say, Lucario.
- "Numerous" counters: Salamence doesn't have any counters, just checks. While other pokemon have "checks" with no counters as well, it is important to remember that Salamence can still hit all of his checks super effectively/hard with just Draco Meteor / Outrage / Earthquake / Fire Blast. Lucario can't run Bullet Punch / Extremespeed / Crunch / SD / CC / Ice Punch all on one set, and Gengar can't run Substitute / Pain Split / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / HP Fire, either.
- Delibird's Ice Shard OHKOs: This is just silly. Yes, it does actually OHKO Salamence, however it also can OHKO Rayquaza, who shares the same weaknesses as Salamence.
Ah, if only that were enough to calm the storm. Yes, a STAB move from one of the worst Pokemon ever is enough to OHKO Salamence, but this is true of just about anything with a 4x weakness. Choice Band Delibird is guaranteed a OHKO on all Garchomp variants; are we going to put Garchomp back in OU?
Alright, alright. I may have slightly exaggerated Latias's removal's effect on Weezing's usage. Cut me some slack here, Weezing's my favorite Pokemon. I tend to be slightly biased in favor of it, and really Poison-types in general.
First post lolz.
Anyway, I just don't understand banning mence. One thing that people need to understand is that mence kind of destroys himself between life orb and confusion. Also, his dragon claw just doesn't hit hard enough. From my experience. You NEED outrage, and outrage comes with big risks. That is why, imo, mence is balanced and a fair part of ou. He can be walled, bullet punched, ice sharded, etc...
I think that battlers are starting to realize that mences fastest way to do big damage is just to ejaculate out a draco meteor after switching in. You see so many more mixmences now than say a year ago. Infact I honestly and actually think that mixmence is the best mence. It can hurt you in so many ways with its great type coverage and high attack stats. Also, its not a suicide pkm the way ddmence is, and can get off 3-4 intimidates which is just incredibly useful. But even with mixmences incredible utility, its just does not fit the definition of uber. And mixmence simply outlcasses dragonite, so i just can't see dragonite even going to suspect testing. I love dragonite and all but that thing is just so incredibly tough to use...
Anyway, I just don't understand banning mence. One thing that people need to understand is that mence kind of destroys himself between life orb and confusion. Also, his dragon claw just doesn't hit hard enough. From my experience. You NEED outrage, and outrage comes with big risks. That is why, imo, mence is balanced and a fair part of ou. He can be walled, bullet punched, ice sharded, etc...
I think that battlers are starting to realize that mences fastest way to do big damage is just to ejaculate out a draco meteor after switching in. You see so many more mixmences now than say a year ago. Infact I honestly and actually think that mixmence is the best mence. It can hurt you in so many ways with its great type coverage and high attack stats. Also, its not a suicide pkm the way ddmence is, and can get off 3-4 intimidates which is just incredibly useful. But even with mixmences incredible utility, its just does not fit the definition of uber. And mixmence simply outlcasses dragonite, so i just can't see dragonite even going to suspect testing. I love dragonite and all but that thing is just so incredibly tough to use...
Ah. Okay It's been mentioned it before but Grass types are LOVING this metagame to death. Breloom especially is tearing team's up right now, and with some Tyranitar support it can outright dismantle teams.
Sub varients are old as dirt but they area tried and true method. (I sometimes wish Breloom had CC so I could go all offensive)
Sub varients are old as dirt but they area tried and true method. (I sometimes wish Breloom had CC so I could go all offensive)
I don't think stealth rock is that easy to stop. Its easy to stop a lead from doing it, but its quite difficult to stop say gliscor and metagross from doing it midgame. If i need it, I can find a way to slide gliscor in there and drop a stealth rock.
Salemence has counters. CB Weavile beats him with ice shard and pursuit. Cresselia beats him with ice beam and psychic, and really only takes a lot of damage from draco meteor. Choice band scizor owns him with bullet punch. TTar can beat him as long as mence doesn't have brick break. I think lucario's ES does about 35% which is something, that can pick him off after LO and stealth rock damage. Outrage and draco meteor won't ohko suicine or vaporeon. Choice scarf users can revenge kill mence.
Honestly I kind of feel like one thing that hurts mence is his predictability. If people really used him to the full extent of his abilities, like mixed up the amount of specsmence/cbmence/fatmence/mixmence/and so forth, THEN he might be closer to uber, as countering would be more complicated.
I keep missing really important days on Smogon :P
I've always tried to avoid Mence when building a team (I've always been a Nite fan), but I think that if Latias is banned, Mence shouldn't really. However, I think it's not necessarily the Pokemon as the set. For example, DD Mence. I ladder a lot to be honest, and truth be told Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock do a good job in "pseudochecking" it. After a couple of moves and taking SR it's in an easy KO range for Bullet Punch Scizor. However, I've also seen Mence with Roost which I've found to be a bitch to take down.
My opinion: let's do what we're doing now....send it through testing! I think it'll be a close vote at any rate.
I've always tried to avoid Mence when building a team (I've always been a Nite fan), but I think that if Latias is banned, Mence shouldn't really. However, I think it's not necessarily the Pokemon as the set. For example, DD Mence. I ladder a lot to be honest, and truth be told Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock do a good job in "pseudochecking" it. After a couple of moves and taking SR it's in an easy KO range for Bullet Punch Scizor. However, I've also seen Mence with Roost which I've found to be a bitch to take down.
My opinion: let's do what we're doing now....send it through testing! I think it'll be a close vote at any rate.
Firstly, I see other dragons filling (at least temporarily) Latias' rather large shoes. THis means DNite, Mence, Flygon are all seeing more play than before. Also, I haven't seen the droves of Apes prophesied at the beginning of this.
As far as Mence being banned, I agree with that. As far as comparisons to other "thresholds", look at stats/other moves. DNite has less attack (slightly), speed, and HP, and his ability, frankly, sucks, especially in comparison to the crippling Intimidate. Few pokemon can reliably switch in and take a +1 outrage. And once an Adamant Mence gets off a DD, he outspeeds all non-scarfed pokes, making him difficult to revenge kill as well. Finally, as far as residual damage, I've seen many sets that run anti-confusion berry (the name escapes me) and some that use lefties. I don't see /any/ residual damage there.
As far as Mence being banned, I agree with that. As far as comparisons to other "thresholds", look at stats/other moves. DNite has less attack (slightly), speed, and HP, and his ability, frankly, sucks, especially in comparison to the crippling Intimidate. Few pokemon can reliably switch in and take a +1 outrage. And once an Adamant Mence gets off a DD, he outspeeds all non-scarfed pokes, making him difficult to revenge kill as well. Finally, as far as residual damage, I've seen many sets that run anti-confusion berry (the name escapes me) and some that use lefties. I don't see /any/ residual damage there.
Most of the Pokemon you cited as "counters" actually don't fit the definition of "counters". Isn't a counter something you can safely switch in that immediately presents a disadvantageous situation to the opponent's Pokemon? Besides, why are we still talking about this? Garchomp needs a Choice Band to 2HKO Mawile with Outrage, and...shit, I made this point already. My second point is pretty well-tread too: talking about counters isn't getting anyone anywhere.
I do have an original thing to say, though: why are we talking about Salamence in the Latias thread?
ok, before any one of you ever says that again, I want you to think of what the most important aspect of actually being a counter is: switching in relatively safely and posing an immediate threat to the Pokemon in. Weavile cannot do that, it is a revenge killer. Scizor switching in on a Fire Blast will make you look stupid and if Bullet Punch doesn't KO, you're losing that Scizor of yours. If I prevent rocks or spin them out, Scizor doesn't do a damn thing until I've damaged/killed at least four Pokemon. Tyranitar can't switch in and KO under any circumstances. Draco Meteor doesn't need to KO Vappy and Suicune, it just needs to hit them on the switch-in and a subsequent attack will take them out. In fact, if they're at about 70% with no boosts, I can bring Mence in and end them with a Draco Meteor.
Switching in on Mence is difficult as fuck because it has perfect coverage, great offenses on both sides, and at least 100 BP on all its moves. There's nothing easy about taking that out and if you claim it is, you're an inexperienced player and your bias will only hold this discussion down.
OK so maybe their aren't TRUE counters that can just switch in and wall the shit out of it.
But you can beat your opponents mence once you understand what they are trying to do with. Also personally I find mences outrage, the fact that outrage locks it in and confuses it, to be a huge liability for mence. but if other people don't then... whatever I guess. and also doesn't cb scizor do like 60% to mence. If not then my bad. Yes magnezone can stop scizor, but then your opponent has just exposed a pkm that you can set up on.
Also yes mence is probably the best pure attacker in the game, but being the best does not make you uber.
But you can beat your opponents mence once you understand what they are trying to do with. Also personally I find mences outrage, the fact that outrage locks it in and confuses it, to be a huge liability for mence. but if other people don't then... whatever I guess. and also doesn't cb scizor do like 60% to mence. If not then my bad. Yes magnezone can stop scizor, but then your opponent has just exposed a pkm that you can set up on.
Also yes mence is probably the best pure attacker in the game, but being the best does not make you uber.
Two Outrages or a Meteor+At least neutral move will be the end of Suicune.
The only true counter to Mence is Cress, and if Sandstorm is up or Cress has any kind of residual damage it can't counter either. Either you have to be able to switch in a full health Cress the instant you see Mence so that DD versions will DD while you switch or you have to have something with Twave or Will-O-Wisp in when Mence switches in on you. Which is rare. Anything else is at risk of being OHKOed on the switch if they predict right.
CB Scizor gets fried by Fire Blast from MixMence, and if you switch to it as soon as you see Mence you have about a 50/50 chance of being dead. If you don't, you're either letting them DD or letting them kill something.
Mence is overpowered, it needs to be Uber. Then again, Scizor's rather OP in OU too. Both of them deserved the boot more than Latias.
Don't forgot about Intimidate that allows it to be a good offensive check to many pokemon in the tier. It's staggering speed also mean's that a select few pokemon can outspeed and OHKO before a DD boost also mean's a lot more than one might think.
Alright then... I think that mence is pretty fairly ou, but a lot of you feel very strongly that he's uber. I guess all that's left to do is suspect test. Suspect testing for scizor though? Ehh.... he's more beatable than mence and latias. Idk about that one.
I honestly feel like Manaphy belongs in ou. Why did it get pitched back to ubers? It lacks the speed and bulk to sweep in ubers, and I could honestly that being the case in ou as well. Also there's no permanent rain in ou...
Either way though I know that being classified as uber is about being too good for ou, not about being good enough for ubers. So the fact that manaphy kinda stinks in ubers is not here nor there... but was it really too good for ou?
I honestly feel like Manaphy belongs in ou. Why did it get pitched back to ubers? It lacks the speed and bulk to sweep in ubers, and I could honestly that being the case in ou as well. Also there's no permanent rain in ou...
Either way though I know that being classified as uber is about being too good for ou, not about being good enough for ubers. So the fact that manaphy kinda stinks in ubers is not here nor there... but was it really too good for ou?