CAP 10 CAP 10 - Main Typing Discussion

[Deck Knight]

Not attempting to poll jump, but here's my big question- What ability/stats/moves could we possibly give a Steel pokemon that would let it beat Machamp, Lucario, and Breloom?

I just can't see it happening. For this reason, I have to keep pushing for Ghost, or at least Poison.

Flying Type + Brave Bird ought to do it. Lucario can't do much to Steel/Flying.

But to elaborate further because I will undoubtedly be accused of poll jumping:

Steel paints us into a corner. Steel types that do not address their three massive weaknesses do not see OU play. There's a reason why no Steel type that doesn't address at least one of these weaknesses without opening up a 4x weakness elsewhere don't hack it in OU, save Heatran who has exceptional stats to make up for it and one of the best offensive STABs in the game.

Ability isn't enough for this. What screams "utility counter" about Steel/Whatever and Levitate/Flash Fire? Nothing. It's just Bronzong redux. It takes a bunch of hits, maybe it gets better coverage moves than Zong (maybe even reliable recovery lol), but at the end of the day you switch it in not because it's particularly versatile or it's that one pokemon whose set you can tailor to counter a specific thing but because it can be slapped on basically any team without exposing it to much hazard.

I don't think Steel aligns with the concept too well. Either it's easy mode because you account for its weaknesses without using an ability or it's just a rehash of one of the currently existing Steel mons in OU.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

I pretty much agree with Deck Knight, and I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that sort of thing. Do we really want "just another Steel" out of CAP10, or something that can actually fit the concept well?

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Basically what Steel looks like it's going to do is hijack everything into an easily foreseeable end product: Steel/Flying with Flash Fire/Motor Drive.

Ironically enough, when the Dragon [No] be here concept was talked about, the first typing that came to mind was a Steel/Flying or Steel/Grass type with Flash Fire. Both somewhat easily foreseeable if you ask me.

However, out of the seven possible types available, some are better suited for a role like this than others. This is why we're having good discussions like this, no? To pick which type tops the others...

...Also, keep in mind that I was referring to Admiral's statement about that being an issue.

That's the general idea, to narrow down the choices of viable types to a more manageable number. Being limited to something isn't really an issue if we're already limiting our options from the start.

Steel has very common weaknesses, which unlike something like Bulky Waters, needs a secondary typing to counteract common moves. The secondary would then be chosen to add less weaknesses, yes. We just need to decide which of the seven good choices is the greatest.

About that wouldn't the same be said for the other six viable typings? Most people are probably thinking of ways to either reducing weaknesses while increasing resistances or reduce weakness while increasing type coverage. One way of doing it is by a helpful type/ability. Now I will say that I generally support Steel for it's defensive properties, but if we were looking for a more offensive typing my support would go out to Water. Still have some decent resistances, but have better stab moves overall.

Picking the worst out of three choices is still limiting yourself to the lesser choice (not to say Steel is the worst or even bad, but an example).

Three choices? I thought we had a good six or seven choices to choice from if Steel was the main type? I wouldn't say limiting ourselves to a part Steel anything is a bad choice if success in it's goal.

 

[reyscarface]

Deal is a Steel type can actually fit the concept well -.-

 

[Banryu]

....yeah, I think DK is right. =0 there's already a ton of niches being filled by Steel-types in OU, both offensively and defensively, and there's not really any need to bring in another one that would just replace someone who already exists. =/ If the Steel-type WERE to be used, then I think that the Steel-Grass combo is a creative one that might get some appropriate use in its own niche, but being weak to Fire kind of again brings up that problem of 'being able to counter lots of stuff'. And I don't think you can give that Flash Fire, that's just sort of a cop-out to me. =\

I still say that Water and Poison ought to be the main types to build something off of...

 

[ferron]

DK, no one is saying we have to get rid of the weaknesses, though we always have the option. there is little point in a poke that can shrug anything off as there would be nothign to learn.
as i said before, i would much rather use those glaring weaknesses as lures to keep pokes in so that you can counter them and for mindgames.

 

[TacoHawk76]

I agree with the idea that steels are not the best for this CAP. What would Skarm be without its and Fighting and Ground resistance? We see what having no way to deal with weaknesses has done to Registeel, an amazing tank that has been relegated to UU because, though it does the whole 'Resist the Dragon!' thing, it is ripped apart by infamous pokes like Lucario, Heatran, Infernape, and lots of dudes who carry EQ (which is pretty much everyone and their grandmother.)

I think that Bug is best. YA YOU HEARD ME. BUG. Think about it: it weaknesses are Flying (not often used), Fire, and Rock. It however comes with resistance to very key offensive types: Ground and Fighting. It, for such a historically frail class, has a surprising number of neutralities. And said neutralities can be turned into resistances with the right secondary typing.

I know this probably wont catch steam, with everyone coming out of the woodwork to vote for steel and water. But I think its a cool idea. It would be nice to see a defensive OU Bug type that isn't named Forretress. Isn't that the whole idea behind CAP? To break all the misconceptions about pokemon and learn more about the game as a whole? How game-changing would another Defensive Bug be?

EDIT: Since I don't have faith in this Bug thing working out, I would like to vote for a seeminly more popular choice: Poison. It seems to afford some great resistances, while only being weak to the uncommon Psychic and the over-whored Ground. But the ground can be worked around via secondary typing/ability. Because you can't scare away EVERYTHING that uses Ground with attacks. Thats impossible.

 

[Deck Knight]

Deal is a Steel type can actually fit the concept well -.-

I shudder at the persuasive power of -.- /

Please inform me as to how we make a "utility counter" out of a type that's either a complete failure (does not account for Steel's dreadful 3 weaknesses to balance 11 largely random resistances), or an all-purpose "everything counter."

Someone posted the top 10 pokemon and the moves they generally use. Fire, Ground, and Fighting are sprinkled all over that list. To counterpoint with Ghost which focuses on immunities, only Tyranitar and Scizor ever bothered with Dark moves (Gengar and Rotom use Ghost). Scizor's Dark move only has 60 BP unless you switch out. Do you realize that merely giving CAP10 Counter in the movepool polls would turn this theoretical liability into an asset by basically baiting the Pursuit? Scizor or TTar expect a windfall KO and instead do some non-lethal (nor damning) percentage and get KO'd in return. They could stat boost I suppose, but TTar would then be dispatched by Superpower and Scizor by Flamethrower, for example.

Steel requires babying at every step along the way. It only becomes a great type when coddled with balancing secondary types and/or mitigating abilities. You slap it on a team for when a Dragon Outrages and for no other reason. That's a kind of utility, but not a novel one.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

Not attempting to poll jump, but here's my big question- What ability/stats/moves could we possibly give a Steel pokemon that would let it beat Machamp, Lucario, and Breloom?

I just can't see it happening. For this reason, I have to keep pushing for Ghost, or at least Poison.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Utility Counter counters utility, not sweepers. And like the person above me, why not other types? Is it because it's "necessary" to resist fighting?
EDIT: Not above, I was on the wrong page -.-

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Please inform me as to how we make a "utility counter" out of a type that's either a complete failure (does not account for Steel's dreadful 3 weaknesses to balance 11 largely random resistances), or an all-purpose "everything counter."

Isn't this fabled "utility counter" suppose to able to come in on just about any attack your opponent could throw at you? If you're saying that Steel wouldn't be able to aid in that ability to switch in on threats despite it's resistance, then why do you believe that Ghost would do it better?

 

[Banryu]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Utility Counter counters utility, not sweepers. And like the person above me, why not other types? Is it because it's "necessary" to resist fighting?
EDIT: Not above, I was on the wrong page -.-

I believe the term 'Utility Counter' refers to the ability of the Pokemon to be specifically tailored to counter certain threats, not to counter utility Pokemon. =0 That's what Taunt and Ghosts are for, there's plenty of that already. =\

 

[Deck Knight]

Isn't this fabled "utility counter" suppose to able to come in on just about any attack your opponent could throw at you? If you're saying that Steel wouldn't be able to aid in that ability to switch in on threats despite it's resistance, then why do you believe that Ghost would do it better?

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.

This is the section of the concept I'm worried about. All these Steel ideas scream "countering a large number of pokemon at the same time."

 

[llamalord01]

Im going to rudely interrupt this steel/no steel debate and say that cap 10's main type should be psychic.
I reckon psychic would well fit the title of a utility counter for several reasons. They are;
-It cripples fighting. He'll resist it, and if you're opponent dosen't switch you cripple him with your stab.
-It's stabs vary between physical/non-physical (psychic/zen headbutt) so can be specified to your opponents defences.
-Status moves. It gets those, lots of those. Confuse ray, Hypnosis. And often will-o-wisp or thunderwave and Magic Coat.
- Light screen and Reflect are tucked under its wing. Also Trick and Trick Room.
- Often paired with helpful abilities such as Synchronize and levitate.

And then there's the bad sides. It fails against dark and steel, two very common types. Vote psychic!!!

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Steel typing might be too good in some instances. Basically what Steel looks like it's going to do is hijack everything into an easily forseeable end product: Steel/Flying with Flash Fire/Motor Drive.

The first thing that suggests that you're incorrect here is that your "forseeable end product" is nothing like one of the possibilities I've been itching to see. Furthermore, it's not like the dozen or so that were discussed in IRC the other day. Steel doesn't paint us into a corner any more than any other of the types do. There are tons of options in stats, abilities, and secondary typings - far more than you give credit for.

Such a theoretical pokemon seems too good. It's a rigid fanboyish end result that anyone could see. If you give a mon the most solid defensive typing in the game combined with the two abilities that grant immunity to one weakness each, you can indeed come in on basically everything. You become an all-purpose everything counter. Why does this need to be called a utility counter when it's theoretical typing and ability is such that it can't be Poisoned OR Burned(/Paralyzed) and is generally immune to hazards?

I'm sorry, but you're making the argument that if Steel is chosen as the primary typing, it will have to be utterly broken. That's bogus. We have in our control here every aspect of the pokemon. It can be balanced very easily in many different ways. Surely you, of all people, realize this.

If Steel does win I will do everything in my power to make sure it gets as broken as humanly possible.

This is a very unprofessional, immature, and inappropriate attitude to take. "If I lose this poll, I'm going to try to ruin this CAP!" That isn't the essence or spirit of CAP. Please, for the good of the CAP, the process, and the community I ask that you rescind this remark.

Steel just makes this another "slap me on I'm Steel" pokemon, where it will join the ranks of all its other dual-typed Steel brethren. All 10 of them.

This sort of sweeping generalization can be made for every single type in the game. There is no merit here.

There's a reason why no Steel type that doesn't address at least one of these weaknesses without opening up a 4x weakness elsewhere don't hack it in OU, save Heatran...

And Magnezone. And Scizor. And Forretress.

Ability isn't enough for this. What screams "utility counter" about Steel/Whatever and Levitate/Flash Fire? Nothing. It's just Bronzong redux. It takes a bunch of hits, maybe it gets better coverage moves than Zong (maybe even reliable recovery lol), but at the end of the day you switch it in not because it's particularly versatile or it's that one pokemon whose set you can tailor to counter a specific thing but because it can be slapped on basically any team without exposing it to much hazard.

This is blatantly incorrect, though. You can tailor its base defensive stats so that they are ineffective unless focused upon in EVs. There are many threats that you might have to tailor the CAP's speed in order to immediately threaten them out after getting in. There are also many Pokemon where you'll want to threaten them on either the physical or special side of the spectrum. The versatility of such a Pokemon lies in its ability to switch in, firstly, and then its ability to threaten out the opponent. You cannot prepare for all threats if this CAP is developed properly - even with Steel as an available option.

Furthermore, there are still numerous options available to us. For instance, the secondary typing could resist one of those few types that Steel is weak to. Then, the abilities might not be forced to be so clear-cut as Levitate, Flash Fire, Motor Drive, or whatever. Heck, the Skarmory model is exactly what CAP10 doesn't need to be. Just because a Steel needs to address its weaknesses does not imply that it will have to become Skarmory 2.0 or Bronzong 2.0 to handle itself. Those Pokemon function entirely different from how I envision CAP10 working, and that's already factoring in its clear weaknesses.

I don't think Steel aligns with the concept too well. Either it's easy mode because you account for its weaknesses without using an ability or it's just a rehash of one of the currently existing Steel mons in OU.

The fact that you even call it easy mode stands testament for how perfectly Steel typing fits the CAP concept. It needs those resistances to switch in on. If it does not have those resistances, then its stat distribution is forced to be heavily defensive so that it will not be 2HKO'd by the threats it should be countering. If that's the case, then it will result in a Pokemon with little offensive threat and no speed with which to immediately put down the threats it's focusing on. I feel that such a forced defensive spread is far more limiting than having to address Steel's weaknesses.

I don't care to argue opinion with you - nor would I want to - however, I only want you to see that your carpet-perspective on what Steel will do to this CAP is incorrect. Steel is incredibly viable for the concept, what it intends to do, and offers us, the community, the flexibility to do it in numerous ways.

 

[T-major]

Deck Knight is telling it like it is. I like him. :)

Still pulling for Fighting because of it's resists and uncommon weaknesses. Water comes second, even though I really don't want just another Bulky Water.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

This is the section of the concept I'm worried about. All these Steel ideas scream "countering a large number of pokemon at the same time."

When Reachzero said that, was he talking about actually counter just one Pokemon at any given time or just being able to counter a select number of Pokemon because:

1) Pokemon can be used for both singular and plural uses.

2) A set made to "counter" one Pokemon may accidentally be able to counter a few other Pokemon, like if CAP10 was running a move set made to counter Salamence, it would have the ability to counter other dragon types as well.

I'm actually being serious here, when he made that statement did he take into account about move sets that could hit Pokemon outside it's supposedly counter range?

 

[darkmattr]

I agree with Deck Knight.

CAP10 is supposed to be customizable. The things you can customize on a pokemon are moves, EVs, IVs, ability to some extent. Typing you're stuck with. I understand steels point of view is to provide as many resistances as possible to allow for flexibility while still resisting most types, but as Deck Knight said, I feel it really limits the later stages. CAP10 is supposed to counter specific pokemon by using move sets and distribution of stats, not just because "hey it's steel it resists x move."

That being said I still back fighting. Resists stealth rock, pursuit, u-turn, while having great stab. Everyone is talking like it cant have close combat because that would be overpowered and that brick break is too weak, but CAP10 doesn't need one OHKO what it's against; just do enough damage such that the benefit of the pokemon staying in to take the hit is greatly outweighed by the benefit of switching out.

 

[swordmaster117]

This is the section of the concept I'm worried about. All these Steel ideas scream "countering a large number of pokemon at the same time."

Deck Knight put it perfectly: we need to remember that the versatility of this poke lies in the customization, not the amount of pokemon it can counter at one time. Its only supposed to be able to counter a few pokemon, not wall half the metagame like a steel type might.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Deck Knight put it perfectly: we need to remember that the versatility of this poke lies in the customization, not the amount of pokemon it can counter at one time. Its only supposed to be able to counter a few pokemon, not wall half the metagame like a steel type might.

It needs to be versatile enough so that it can counter any Pokemon but not all at once. It needs to be able to switch into any threat potentially well, tailored specifically to be able to switch into anything X threat may possibly throw at it. This is particularly why Steel is such a good foundation for the stat distribution and ability selection to be built atop.

 

[swordmaster117]

It needs to be versatile enough so that it can counter any Pokemon but not all at once. It needs to be able to switch into any threat potentially well, tailored specifically to be able to switch into anything X threat may possibly throw at it. This is particularly why Steel is such a good foundation for the stat distribution and ability selection to be built atop.

Ah there's the rub. Its supposed to be ineffective to all except those which its supposed to counter. If we make it able to switch into anything, then its not really ineffective, right?

 

[Deck Knight]

The first thing that suggests that you're incorrect here is that your "forseeable end product" is nothing like one of the possibilities I've been itching to see. Furthermore, it's not like the dozen or so that were discussed in IRC the other day. Steel doesn't paint us into a corner any more than any other of the types do. There are tons of options in stats, abilities, and secondary typings - far more than you give credit for.

Steel paints us into the corner of building an all-purpose wall. Plain and simple. We've already built a CAP with Steel typing, decent coverage, and a more offensive outlook. I'm talking about Kitsunoh of course, and we had no illusions that mon was setting out to have the bulk to switch into an array of attacks.

I'm sorry, but you're making the argument that if Steel is chosen as the primary typing, it will have to be utterly broken. That's bogus. We have in our control here every aspect of the pokemon. It can be balanced very easily in many different ways. Surely you, of all people, realize this.

Steel is the most unbalanced type in the game. It trades a cart of random resistances for three of the most ubiquitous weaknesses.

This is a very unprofessional, immature, and inappropriate attitude to take. "If I lose this poll, I'm going to try to ruin this CAP!" That isn't the essence or spirit of CAP. Please, for the good of the CAP, the process, and the community I ask that you rescind this remark.

Why shouldn't I do what I always do, which is to optimize the mon's chances for success at every point in the process? If we want our "utility counter" to be resistance king, we should give it the king of resistance types. I thought resistances were the most important thing? Suddenly we'll have to cripple it instead by picking a proxy type known for attributes that either place it outside the realm of OU (Steelix, Aggron) or traditionally lend themselves to a more offensive playstyle? (Lucario/Kitsunoh)

This sort of sweeping generalization can be made for every single type in the game. There is no merit here.

There are 17 Types. Steel comprises 20% of OU (10 of 50ish). That leaves 80% for the other 16 types. Steel is in an entirely different class of its own, when its devastating weaknesses are properly accounted for. Its usage in OU (all among Dual types I might add) should make that abundantly clear. On average you are four times more likely to see a Steel pokemon than any other individual type.

And Magnezone. And Scizor. And Forretress.

Magnezone exists largely for eradicating the other 9 Steels. Scizor and Forretress bait Fire moves for Heatran to eat. Otherwise there is no effective means to attack them because Bug cancels out the other two devastating weaknesses.

This is blatantly incorrect, though. You can tailor its base defensive stats so that they are ineffective unless focused upon in EVs. There are many threats that you might have to tailor the CAP's speed in order to immediately threaten them out after getting in. There are also many Pokemon where you'll want to threaten them on either the physical or special side of the spectrum. The versatility of such a Pokemon lies in its ability to switch in, firstly, and then its ability to threaten out the opponent. You cannot prepare for all threats if this CAP is developed properly - even with Steel as an available option.

So not only will this get an overpowered, overrepresented type (again, assuming Steel's weaknesses are balanced and not exacerbated), it will also presumably get a movepool superior to that of even Jirachi. Thats what it will need to deal with the level of anti-Steel attacks in the metagame. When I did Colossoil's stats they were defensively superior to Hariyama. Colossoil had no actual impetus to use defensive stats, so why would a more offensive Steel mon do so? Lucario and Kitsunoh don't. Scizor runs 248 HP since it doesn't require Speed for Bullet Punch, but beforehand never did so. Jirachi barely invests large amounts of EVs in defenses (Wish set is most defensive). Heatran does have bulky sets but it follows the general Steel paradigm I have argued of required canceling out a weakness (and in fact capitalizing on other Steel team member's weakness to it).

Furthermore, there are still numerous options available to us. For instance, the secondary typing could resist one of those few types that Steel is weak to. Then, the abilities might not be forced to be so clear-cut as Levitate, Flash Fire, Motor Drive, or whatever. Heck, the Skarmory model is exactly what CAP10 doesn't need to be. Just because a Steel needs to address its weaknesses does not imply that it will have to become Skarmory 2.0 or Bronzong 2.0 to handle itself. Those Pokemon function entirely different from how I envision CAP10 working, and that's already factoring in its clear weaknesses.

Few weaknesses? We're talking Ground, Fire, and Fighting here, three of the most used attacks in the metagame on almost every OU Pokemon. You can't address all 3 at once without using one of Levitate or Flash Fire, depending on what you choose for a secondary type to plug up the other ones.

The fact that you even call it easy mode stands testament for how perfectly Steel typing fits the CAP concept. It needs those resistances to switch in on. If it does not have those resistances, then its stat distribution is forced to be heavily defensive so that it will not be 2HKO'd by the threats it should be countering. If that's the case, then it will result in a Pokemon with little offensive threat and no speed with which to immediately put down the threats it's focusing on. I feel that such a forced defensive spread is far more limiting than having to address Steel's weaknesses.

The fact I call it easy mode implies that like Multitype it is a pre-completed end product if done in the manner I prefer, which is to maximize efficiencies. By all means if resistances are to be king of the hill, let them be so. I cannot seriously take any CAP project that requires an immunity-conferring ability not to fall victim to Hidden Power Fire (or otherwise share the current best defensive type in the game with the time-tested Skarmory)

I don't care to argue opinion with you - nor would I want to - however, I only want you to see that your carpet-perspective on what Steel will do to this CAP is incorrect. Steel is incredibly viable for the concept, what it intends to do, and offers us, the community, the flexibility to do it in numerous ways.

Steel is rigid and offers no flexibility. You either make up for Steel's massive, multifaceted shortcomings or you will find the project a failure. The very fact in order for this to be competitive you have to justify immunity-enabling abilities should be a clarion call. Steel either counters very, very little or it counters everything. There is no middle ground with Steel. By its very nature it either inflexibly loses to most pokemon with decent move coverage or it counters everything well. Steel is all or nothing.

 

[Fuzznip]

Im going to rudely interrupt this steel/no steel debate and say that cap 10's main type should be psychic.
I reckon psychic would well fit the title of a utility counter for several reasons. They are;
-It cripples fighting. He'll resist it, and if you're opponent dosen't switch you cripple him with your stab.
-It's stabs vary between physical/non-physical (psychic/zen headbutt) so can be specified to your opponents defences.
-Status moves. It gets those, lots of those. Confuse ray, Hypnosis. And often will-o-wisp or thunderwave and Magic Coat.
- Light screen and Reflect are tucked under its wing. Also Trick and Trick Room.
- Often paired with helpful abilities such as Synchronize and levitate.

And then there's the bad sides. It fails against dark and steel, two very common types. Vote psychic!!!

I'm just going to say that Psychic is a bad type to look into for our CAP.

To start off, the pros you listed, llama, are nothing special. Yeah, okay, it can switch in on Fighting Pokemon and defeat them with Psychic; however, you can say that kind of pro to any type you want. "Fire can switch into Grass and beat it", "Ground can switch into Rock and beat it". It can be said for anything. Your second point falls under the same thing. I can use Fire Blast or Fire Punch for my Fire-type or Earthquake or Earth Power for my Ground-type. Psychic really doesn't deserve special mention because of this. Any Pokemon can be equipped with a lot of status moves, so that point is relatively moot. And anyway, we can give it what it whatever it needs, meaning it can have a lot of support moves should we decide on that. Same goes for Trick and Trick Room (though Trick Room doesn't contribute to countering an opponent). About the abilities Psychic "commonly has", we don't care. We're not going to follow the exact style of Psychic-types. We're not going to consider Levitate because a lot of Psychics have that. We are choosing our abilities that help the concept achieve its goal.

Psychic is just really bad. A Utility Counter being weak to the ever-present Pursuit is disappointing. I mean, we don't want our Pokemon to be threatened by this kind of thing, it will just fail upon entering the battle. That means we are forced to equip Psychic with an ability that resists Dark, which can only be Dark / Fighting / Steel. That's a pretty limiting pool of options. Because of this major hinderance (as well as others I don't really want to get in to), Psychic should be out of the possible types for this CAP. There is much better.

 

[ferron]

Ah there's the rub. Its supposed to be ineffective to all except those which its supposed to counter. If we make it able to switch into anything, then its not really ineffective, right?

in a single word, incorrect. its supposed to only be a true counter to one at a time, but ineffective against everything but what its supposed to counter at that time. note the difference.

 

[Dominion]

@drkslay

we haven't even decided which specific pokes we plan on countering yet, so we can't say what we are able or unable to do.

This is something that I'd like to get answered before moving on. As I and DrkSlay have pointed out: what are we countering? Stall? Offense? etc? This could effectively change my vote and possibly many others if we understood what exactly we want this CAP to do, and how. If we want this thing to counter dragons, then i'd see an arguement for Steel. If we wanted it to counter Stall, then Poison would certainly be a fine choice.

Also, like someone else has pointed out, being reasonable with our choice of moves and abilities should be taken into consideration. While I know pointing out the impossible in pokemon is silly (and partially stupid), we still have to keep some form of sense. A Fire type with Hydro Pump is simply silly and would be considered a scapegoat in my book, as an example. So a Steel type with a move like Will-o-wisp isn't making much sense either.

Electric is a type that has this problem. Alot, actually. Electric types are notorious for having shallow movepools. Electivire breaks that mold but thats because it's weird (Yes, thats my arguement).

Water has very very few impossibilities. Fire type moves are even on Water type already (slowbro, octillary)! I would prefer not to resort to such a drastic idea but it simply shows that Water type have so much potential and can be made to look as if the big Game Freak itself created this CAP.

 

[ferron]

This is something that I'd like to get answered before moving on. As I and DrkSlay have pointed out: what are we countering? Stall? Offense? etc? This could effectively change my vote and possibly many others if we understood what exactly we want this CAP to do, and how. If we want this thing to counter dragons, then i'd see an arguement for Steel. If we wanted it to counter Stall, then Poison would certainly be a fine choice.

Also, like someone else has pointed out, being reasonable with our choice of moves and abilities should be taken into consideration. While I know pointing out the impossible in pokemon is silly (and partially stupid), we still have to keep some form of sense. A Fire type with Hydro Pump is simply silly and would be considered a scapegoat in my book, as an example. So a Steel type with a move like Will-o-wisp isn't making much sense either.

Electric is a type that has this problem. Alot, actually. Electric types are notorious for having shallow movepools. Electivire breaks that mold but thats because it's weird (Yes, thats my arguement).

Water has very very few impossibilities. Fire type moves are even on Water type already (slowbro, octillary)! I would prefer not to resort to such a drastic idea but it simply shows that Water type have so much potential and can be made to look as if the big Game Freak itself created this CAP.

honestly, no one here would have any idea what we should be specifically countering. maybe it is a bit of everything, depending on what is chosen. i just chose a type that might better suit the concept, which is what i personally believe everyone should do.
i saw only two possibilities in this; normal with their usually large movepools, and steel with their ability to switch in without fear.
the ability to switch won out for me in the end.