-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll 2
- Thread starter beej
- Start date
- Status
At no point in the reasoning for having to compensate for weaknesses was it ever said that CAP10 absolutely had to be incredibly defensive. I can understand defensiveness to a degree, but anything beyond the overall defensiveness of Swampert is overkill imo.
I bet nobody at any point in the process so far is considering what CAP10's Achilles' heel is going to be.
EDIT:
You mean 4 moveslot syndrome? That by itself isn't an Achilles' heel.
I bet nobody at any point in the process so far is considering what CAP10's Achilles' heel is going to be.
EDIT:
You mean 4 moveslot syndrome? That by itself isn't an Achilles' heel.
You know what, I've changed my supporting mind. Let it not be said I'm not someone who cannot be convinced...
Anyway, I'm voting Fighting now.
Besides the fact I can foresee a Electric/Fighting type being possible and removing lots of problems for us, Fighting presents us with resists to SR, Pursuit and U-turn, which are all very useful for counters, and it isn't restricted to a certain moveset either, provided we don't decide it's another muscle-bound Pokemon which can only use certain moves. Which isn't the eptimone of a Fighting type - as Breloom shows.
Regardless, it doesn't honestly matter - both types are equally good, with their weaknesses counter-balancing their strengths, and everyone agrees that both types are fairly easy to customize. We aren't restricted to a certain design, save the Utility Counter. So it's a win-win regardless of the winning type.
Anyway, I'm voting Fighting now.
Besides the fact I can foresee a Electric/Fighting type being possible and removing lots of problems for us, Fighting presents us with resists to SR, Pursuit and U-turn, which are all very useful for counters, and it isn't restricted to a certain moveset either, provided we don't decide it's another muscle-bound Pokemon which can only use certain moves. Which isn't the eptimone of a Fighting type - as Breloom shows.
Regardless, it doesn't honestly matter - both types are equally good, with their weaknesses counter-balancing their strengths, and everyone agrees that both types are fairly easy to customize. We aren't restricted to a certain design, save the Utility Counter. So it's a win-win regardless of the winning type.
I vote Electric, I'd like to see the potential of the electric type in unison with a secondary typing. We've seen how well fighting adapts to other typing such as Ghost, Dark and Steel, Lets now explore a new option and create an electric pokemon that can do alittle bit of everything. Something that we've seen fighting types do already.
I've voted on Fighting now that Water has gone. :(
The reason I don't support Electric is because of it's big huge weakness to Ground. Sure, we can nullify it with Levitate or a secondary typing of Flying, but wouldn't that reduce its potential? If Levitate is unneeded, then wouldn't something like Trace be more effective (I'm thinking like a Porygon2 here)? Plus, Fighting is resistant to Stealth Rock AND Pursuit. If this thing is switching in and out to counter stuff, it should be resistant to that. Electric is not. Fighting types have a terrific STAB in Close Combat (no one said CAP 10 had to be defensive) and usually get the elemental punches. And why not give it Pursuit? That allows it to be tailored to counter anything, but not everything, which is the purpose of CAP 10.
EDIT: I've just realized that this poll is getting REALLY close. *cue dramatic music*
The reason I don't support Electric is because of it's big huge weakness to Ground. Sure, we can nullify it with Levitate or a secondary typing of Flying, but wouldn't that reduce its potential? If Levitate is unneeded, then wouldn't something like Trace be more effective (I'm thinking like a Porygon2 here)? Plus, Fighting is resistant to Stealth Rock AND Pursuit. If this thing is switching in and out to counter stuff, it should be resistant to that. Electric is not. Fighting types have a terrific STAB in Close Combat (no one said CAP 10 had to be defensive) and usually get the elemental punches. And why not give it Pursuit? That allows it to be tailored to counter anything, but not everything, which is the purpose of CAP 10.
EDIT: I've just realized that this poll is getting REALLY close. *cue dramatic music*
Both types are great, but went with Electric due to the fact that the main goal of CAP is to explore the metagame, which already has its share of fighting type pokemon (electric does too, but not as many).
Dr. Attack has a point. Cresselia is not "Stuck" with levitate. It gives it an immunity to ground and spikes/toxic spikes. It's a good thing to have levitate no matter the typing. Besides pokemon can have two different abilities and this pokemon could have another ability. Meanwhile fighting type cap is scared of bounce gyrados, most moltres, some zapdos, most cm jirachi, and some azelf.
Considering that this Pokemon is built to counter specific Pokemon, or a specific Pokemon niche, it's Achilles' heel should be that it's not very effective against those Pokemon that it has not been customized to counter.
huh... i always thought they were... hmmm... oh well, one weakness is still a very convinient up-side that can be exploited with levatate or flying as a secondary type. Though levatate is preferable to flying, flying is still an option
With water out of the picture my vote would have to go to Electric. I just feel that if we make the pokemon fighting we might lose part of the utility counter. a fighting type would just scream out strats like subpunching, close combat sweeping and the likes. Also i just feel we might end up with a hariyama/machamp with another ability or a secondary typing.
Like I've said before, making an Electric-type CaP will pretty much guarantee a secondary typing that resists ground and/or Levitate. My question is: Do we really want to corner ourselves?
We should be voting for what makes the concept work best, not just what allows us most freedom of choice at later stages. The argument that voting for X means forcing Y is 100% invalid.
EDIT: @2gig: "The argument that voting for X means forcing Y is 100% invalid." An Electric-type CAP10 does not require Flying as a second type or Levitate. Where is it written that a pokemon can't be both EQ weak and successful?
That's not to say that Fighting-type won't do the concept good, because I'm sure it will.
EDIT: @2gig: "The argument that voting for X means forcing Y is 100% invalid." An Electric-type CAP10 does not require Flying as a second type or Levitate. Where is it written that a pokemon can't be both EQ weak and successful?
That's not to say that Fighting-type won't do the concept good, because I'm sure it will.
Exactly the reason I voted Electric.
A lot of OU can run Psychic attacks to counter this guy, and who knows if somebody's going to decide to try Fly Mence? (Bounce Gyara is viable already, and don't get me started on Skarm, Togekiss, and Staraptor.)
Nothing that gets EQ is likely to not run it. If we choose Electric, we won't be sucker punched by people deciding "Hey, why don't we try COUNTER COUNTERING with a surprise set?"
Thus making your utility counter moot and failing the concept.
If we give this thing weaknesses, they either have to be weaknesses the metagame uses or something like the incredibly stupid Poison, which is outclassed in dealing with Grass-types anyway and whose only viable unSTABbed moves (Toxic, Toxic Spikes) don't deal direct damage anyway.
Voted Fighting.
Electric would be nice but too many sweepers run Earthquake and thus without Levitate or huge defensive stats it would be pretty hard to have it wall something. Fighting only fears Psychic and Flying which are both generally rare attacking types compared to Ground. Oddly enough the combination of Electric/Fighting would be impressive. Resists Dark/Rock/Bug/Steel/Electric and only weak to Ground/Psychic. Would also make great use of paralyzing, either through Thunder Wave or Force Palm. Not to mention it's completely unexplored typing with good STAB coverage. If there was a way to vote for both I would have chosen it.
Electric would be nice but too many sweepers run Earthquake and thus without Levitate or huge defensive stats it would be pretty hard to have it wall something. Fighting only fears Psychic and Flying which are both generally rare attacking types compared to Ground. Oddly enough the combination of Electric/Fighting would be impressive. Resists Dark/Rock/Bug/Steel/Electric and only weak to Ground/Psychic. Would also make great use of paralyzing, either through Thunder Wave or Force Palm. Not to mention it's completely unexplored typing with good STAB coverage. If there was a way to vote for both I would have chosen it.
@Engineer_Pikachu: Is it really a corner to begin with? They're no guarantee that if Electric wins, we would have to give it a Ground resisted secondary typing and/or Levitate in order to work. Even if we had to give it one of those options for the selection to success I personally don't see it as a bad thing because the pursuit of being more creative shouldn't engulf the entire project thus potentially stifling the success of mission statement.
Edit: Damnit Objection, you have beaten me to the punch.
Edit: Damnit Objection, you have beaten me to the punch.
That sure didn't happen with Cap 8 now, did it?
Why is everyone already saying what the Pokemon will actually do just because it has a certain type? We have (still) just begun Cap 10, and we are already using prediction and shallow reasoning to influence our decisions.
To those who are arguing that an Electric utility counter will require Levitate, it seems you are actually limiting yourselves to ability choicesbecause of stereotyping. There are multiple ways we can deal with one 2x weakness. This isn't a 4x weakness like Scizor or Celebi or anything, first off. We're not going to make something that will faint at the sign of a Ground attack, for goodness sake. The Ground weakness is not as severe as it has made out to be, with Ground being one of the easiest attacking types to work around. I am not going to poll jump here, but I can personally think of two or three other abilities that would equal great effects outside of simply preventing weaknesses (and some still help that weakness too!). Don't just dismiss a type because it has a weakness. If this is the case, we should be countering all weaknesses then, including Psychic and Flying. Should we stereotype a Fighting type so that it becomes immune to Flying and Psychic? Not really. It's not necessary. Same with Electric. Electric is still the prime choice here, in my opinion.
Obvious truth is obvious. This is why I voted Fighting, for reasons already explained.
While, even without taking ability/movepool into consideration, Fighting serves the concept better, this IS another valid reason to avoid Electric. Electric means that it is very likely that we will either be seeing a flying secondary type or levitate as an ability. Flying tacks on all sorts of new weaknesses and resistances, as well as an immunity, which is something we really want to avoid (I will be supporting mono type should electric or fighting win). Also, Levitate would take away from one of the few areas that allows for drastic customization of a Pokemon. It is very unlikely that we would give CAP10 a second ability that comes close to beating dropping Electric's only weakness and replacing it with an immunity. Levitate would pull CAP10 miles away from its original concept, which is the ability I'm sure most electric voters are already planning to slap on CAP10.
First off, I for one, do not anticipate levitate but if that did happen it certainly would not be out of line with the concept in the least. I think you are underestimating the creativity of what would appear to be right at half of the community here.
Additionally, there have been many, including myself, who have stated that the ground weakness is not a fatal flaw and does not limit us out of necessity in the secondary typing or ability stage in the least. All this speculation about being restricted in future polls is really frustrating and I sincerely hope it is not influencing the majority of votes for either side.
EDIT: I think some people must be voting just to make this thing a tie... it's incredible.
The weakness to Ground could help support the original statement.
Since Ground is such a common offensive type it wouldn't be hard for a lot of the metagame to score a solid hit on it. It would be better at countering specific threats who don't have access to Earthquake/Earth Power or tend to shy away from it for other options such as Fighting types.
I voted Fighting for one simple reason. No EQ weakness. EQ is being put on sets almost 50% of the time according to Dougs stats. That's massive. The chance of switching into one is therefor very likely. This pokemons concept is made to counter any possible pokemon, but only 1 or a few at a time. That means it still should be able to counter something with EQ, when you tailor it to that need.
Just a simple example. A DDmence (+0, no DD in) with LO would do 747 damage when considering 100 def. I have no idea what the actual stats will actually be, and this is not the place to discuss that.
However, if you look at the topic at hand, if everyone and their mothers pack EQ and this poke gets a SE hit from it, it will be OHKOed even with monstrous defence stats. A counter needs to get in safely and live long enough to actually do something to what its supposed to counter. Electric seems like a rather poor choice then.
As for those saying that the Ground weakness makes for a nice achilles heel, or otherwise it's too strong, that's rubbish. That's going completely against the concept. This pokemon should not have a glaring weakness by default. If it should be made to counter as much as possible, it should be able to do that. The real challenge is limiting it in a way that it will be able to counter a few mons and a few mons only. But a standard weakness actually seems to me to deviate from the actual concept.
Just a simple example. A DDmence (+0, no DD in) with LO would do 747 damage when considering 100 def. I have no idea what the actual stats will actually be, and this is not the place to discuss that.
However, if you look at the topic at hand, if everyone and their mothers pack EQ and this poke gets a SE hit from it, it will be OHKOed even with monstrous defence stats. A counter needs to get in safely and live long enough to actually do something to what its supposed to counter. Electric seems like a rather poor choice then.
As for those saying that the Ground weakness makes for a nice achilles heel, or otherwise it's too strong, that's rubbish. That's going completely against the concept. This pokemon should not have a glaring weakness by default. If it should be made to counter as much as possible, it should be able to do that. The real challenge is limiting it in a way that it will be able to counter a few mons and a few mons only. But a standard weakness actually seems to me to deviate from the actual concept.
Even without levitate, Fighting does a superior job in terms of staying in line with the concept. I'm just saying that the mouth breathing masses will say "Oh hey, levitate goes well with Electric", and that's what we'll end up with.
Also, keep in mind, I don't think Electric is a bad type at all for this CAP, I just feel that Fighting is all around superior. It's basically a matter of "why have steak when I can have FREAKING LOBSTER?" (Hopefully this makes sense, I'm generally bad with metaphors). I don't think of the ground weakness as some sort of horrible crippling weakness, but I do feel it is something we can avoid without losing anything by going with Fighting. As I said before, the typing should have as small of an effect as possible on CAP10, leaving the customization of ability, EV spread, and move selection to determine how CAP10 will operate.
Ok, so you stated that you think of the ground weakness would help support the concept, and then you explained exactly why it conflicts so horribly with the concept. As you said, the ground weakness would allow a lot of Pokemon to score a solid hit on it, which is exactly why it is so incompatible with the concept. "This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon". That is the concept, not "This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon except for the huge amount of Pokemon that regularly carry a ground move". Keeping the ground weakness would make it extremely difficult if not impossible for this Pokemon to be customizable to counter Pokemon who regularly carry a powerful ground move, and therefore completely defies the concept.
I chose Electric because it would let us have a Pokemon with no weaknesses. A Ground weakness is an easy one to get around with Levitate, which in itself is not a limiting ability since it would let CAP10 switch in on more attacks. Also, CAP10 is supposed to be able to counter everything, but not with one moveset, and if CAP10 has any weaknesses, that keeps it from countering any Pokemon that have powerful STAB attacks for that weakness. Electric also has fewer resistances, which will actually help the concept. If a Pokemon has a resistance to a certain type, then it will almost always be able to counter Pokemon that are heavily based on using that type. This makes CAP10 able to always counter some common threats with any of its movesets, which goes against the unpredictability the concept states CAP10 will have. For example, imagine CAP10 were a counter to all Gengar sets. A player who sees a CAP10 switch in on their Gengar is not going to consider that the particular CAP10 set being used against them is one that is not designed to counter Gengar; instead, that player will switch out their Gengar and not worry about what moveset CAP10 is running. That goes against the concept, because then CAP10 will not always force the opponent to try to determine what moveset CAP10 is using.
- Status