CAP 21 CAP 21 - Part 1 - Concept Submissions

[Max Carvalho]

Abilities Lord by Max Carvalho - The concept itself here is fine, but I think you really need to work on your questions section. Which abilities determine a role is a very important question to ask, but the other things you have here amount to little more than "what happened?" that can't really be looked at until the project is done. What you really need to think about here is what exactly we would have to discuss to make sure we choose such abilities, and the kinds of roles they would help the CAP take, or other things like that.

Thanks for the feedback! After some more deep thought, I've added more questions hopefully in the direction you wanted them to be (and taken out the ones that didn't), and also some more cents at explanation. I hope I got in the right direction :p

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Name: Support Comes First

General Description: A Pokemon whose primary role on a team is to control field hazards and/or use support, status, or utility moves.

Justification: Most Mega Pokemon are either fearsome sweepers, speedy revenge killers, or otherwise offensive powerhouses that serve as a team's most common "win condition". As a result, Mega Pokemon devoted to team support and field effects are few and far between. This is in part because Pokemon like Clefable, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory fulfill those roles well while most Mega Pokemon are fit for attacking rather than support. However, there's no reason why a Mega Pokemon has to be confined to the role of attacking; it would teach us a lot about how support Pokemon work if we were to introduce a Mega Pokemon that successfully uses the BST increase to provide team support. It could also cause non-Mega sweepers to rise in popularity, as they could benefit from the supportive role our CAP would take.

Questions to be Answered:
- How can we make a Mega Pokemon's primary role supportive rather than offensive?
- Will current utility Pokemon such as Ferrothorn decline in popularity if a better supportive Pokemon is introduced?
- What non-Mega sweepers and walls will be able to take advantage of the support our Utility Mega provides?
- How can we create a Pokemon whose role is distinct from other support Pokemon such as Mega Sableye?
- What Pokemon will pair well with a supportive presence?
- Which support moves will CAP21 actually be able to use?
- Is it possible to increase the viability of currently unseen utility moves?

Explanation: We've made a CAP much like this before: Fidgit. Fidgit was a successful project, using its custom Ability to lay down field hazards and effects like no other Pokemon could. While we don't have access to custom Abilities anymore, we have plenty of tools at our disposal - like a typing change and a BST increase - to create the best utility Pokemon in the game. And it's important that we do so, as any utility Mega even partially outclassed by another non-Mega utility Pokemon just isn't going to see use. This concept is one that can teach us about the metagame even if it's not exactly where we want it in terms of viability. If we give it the tools to succeed in the metagame yet it still falls flat, then we learn that Mega Pokemon need to be in very specific situations to be team supporters. If it ends up too powerful, then we might learn the conditions for supportive options to break OU. And hopefully, we'll end up with a Pokemon that redefines what it means to be a team supporter in Gen 6 OU by combining the boosts that come with Mega Evolution with interesting, powerful support options.

Let me reiterate that I did not say this Pokemon cannot use offensive moves or pose any offensive presence. When this CAP is in battle, the opponent's first reaction should be "This Pokemon was sent out to affect entry hazards or use a status or support move,", not "this Pokemon is Mega Sableye 2.0 and has 0 attacking moves and might use Misty Terrain". The goal of this concept would be to understand how to use the boosts that come with Mega Evolution to create a great supportive Pokemon. This Pokemon can also have an offensive or defensive presence, but should be defined by its supportive potential more than anything else.

 

[Tsaeb XIII]

Reposting from the workshop thread:

Name: Captain Boomerang

General Description: This Pokemon is designed to specialise in the early and late game phases of a battle.

Justification: There are Pokemon in the metagame that specialise in various phases of a battle. Suicide leads have been around for a long time, setting Screens and/or hazards. Late game sweepers and cleaners wait until their counters and checks are removed or weakened, and come to the fore in the late game. Pivots and clerics are typically most effective some time in between. This concept would allow us to investigate these roles in more detail, as we attempt to create a Pokemon that has an early game role and a late game role, but has limited utility during the middle phase of the game (thus avoiding making a Pokemon that is generically good all game). In light of the Mega CAP, it also allows us to investigate the differences in roles that can be established between the base form (fulfilling the early game aspect) and the Mega Evolution (most likely exclusively fulfilling the late game aspect), and the triggers within a battle that affect the best time to Mega Evolve.

Questions To Be Answered:
- How do the various roles on a team relate to the different stages that take place throughout a battle?
- Which team archetype/s benefit/s most from a single Pokemon that specialises in the beginning and end of battles, and which team archetypes depend more on consistent output throughout a battle?
- Which attributes make a Pokemon successful in the various stages of a battle, and which of these attributes must be included/excluded for a Pokemon to be a specialist at a particular stage?
- How can two distinctly different roles be fulfilled by a single moveset without 4MSS making it preferable to specialise in one?
- What makes it worth taking the risk of using a base form with utility in the early game rather than preserving it for its Mega being used in the late game?
- How much value does a late game role as a Mega Evolution have to add to outweigh the loss of an item for a base form that specialises in the early game and the opportunity cost of forgoing a different Mega?

Explanation:
In the simplest version of this project, I see the base form of this Pokemon most probably interacting with the hazard game, although an alternative would be scouting. The safest role is probably as a hazard setter, given that hazard control is more likely to have midgame utility, but it could be explored. If we made it a scout, we'd have to be careful not to give it the bulk and/or speed to serve as a midgame pivot. About the only early game role that we lose out on is Screen setting because of the enforced lack of Light Clay; apart from that, there are plenty of directions we could go with the project that would cause us to learn more about early game roles. Another alternative here is designing it with a potential team in mind, and designing it to grab momentum by discouraging the opponent from leading with a Pokemon that would otherwise put CAP's team on the back foot (although this comes with all the usual playtest issues of counter-teaming).

In terms of the late game, sweeper or cleaner would be the low hanging fruit. It would be interesting to consider what other late game roles might be useful though - perhaps it could act as an effective response to other common end game strategies, thus weakening the opponent's win condition and facilitating its own team's win condition. I suspect that the key to encouraging late game use of the Mega while avoiding midgame use would be limited coverage, but again, this isn't the only way to achieve it. Part of what I like about this concept is that, while it plays with the idea of delaying Mega Evolution that has been encouraged in many of the other concepts, it gives a much more rigid structure in which this should take place, mitigating some of the risks associated with trying to balance the two forms relative to each other. If the base form is has very limited use after a certain point in the game, and the Mega most effective in the late game, there is a clear separation between the two and an incentive to use both throughout the battle.

 

[noobiess]

Name: Generalist vs. specialist

General Description: A pokémon that is able to mega evolve into generally worse pokémon but great against a specific common threat

Justification: In general a pokémon receives an upgrade (better stats or/and ability) by mega evolving. Therefore in battling it is hardly ever a question whether you should mega evolve or not. With this concept, I would like to create a pokémon where you should pose this question during battle. This is done so by creating a pokémon that turns form "generalist" into "specialist" by mega evolving. In general the pokémon does al right in the metagame, it is good against a decent amount of OU pokémon but, like any other pokémon, has some flaws and threats. By mega evolving the pokémon changes its position in the metagame drasticly. It becomes excellent against a very common OU threat (possibly also of its "unmega-evolved form") but poor against various other OU pokémon. The player now has to choose whether he or she wants to 'sacrafice' the generalist to deal with the specific threat.

Questions To Be Answered:
- Will the mega evolution will be used to deal with the specific common OU threat?
- Does this add a new dimention to mega evolutions? Not only by of choosing whether or not you should mega evolve or not but also by choosing the right timing.
- Will this pokémon have an effect of the usage rate of the specific OU threat?
- And does this usage rate affect the usage of the mega stone on this pokémon?
- Will this change our way of thinking about mega evolutions?

Explanation:
In wanted to do something with mega evolution since there is some much that is undiscoved. I think this cap will make megaevolution more tactic and interesting.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Name: Generalist vs. specialist

General Description: A pokémon that is able to mega evolve into generally worse pokémon but great against a specific common threat

Justification: In general a pokémon receives an upgrade (better stats or/and ability) by mega evolving. Therefore in battling it is hardly ever a question whether you should mega evolve or not. With this concept, I would like to create a pokémon where you should pose this question during battle. This is done so by creating a pokémon that turns form "generalist" into "specialist" by mega evolving. In general the pokémon does al right in the metagame, it is good against a decent amount of OU pokémon but, like any other pokémon, has some flaws and threats. By mega evolving the pokémon changes its position in the metagame drasticly. It becomes excellent against a very common OU threat (possibly also of its "unmega-evolved form") but poor against various other OU pokémon. The player now has to choose whether he or she wants to 'sacrifice' the generalist to deal with the specific threat.

Questions To Be Answered:
- Will the mega evolution will be used to deal with the specific common OU threat?
- Does this add a new dimention to mega evolutions? Not only by of choosing whether or not you should mega evolve or not but also by choosing the right timing.
- Will this pokémon have an effect of the usage rate of the specific OU threat?
- And does this usage rate affect the usage of the mega stone on this pokémon?
- Will this change our way of thinking about mega evolutions?

Explanation:
In wanted to do something with mega evolution since there is some much that is undiscoved. I think this cap will make megaevolution more tactic and interesting.

Should expand on your explanation, it's hard to see your concept without a proper one. It's a different take on the 'different roles of base and Mega form' idea, but I'm not seeing a multitude of ways it can be done. I mean, it sounds pretty difficult to make a base form that is actually usable over the Mega form without either causing people to never bother using the Mega form at all, or else making the Mega form too effective that people would Mega immediately, thus invalidating your concept (seriously, it's a ~100 BST boost, hard to imagine that not making the Mega too good). More importantly, how can it be possible to address the issue that people can simply run a different Pokemon to counter the specific threat, and keep this CAP in its base form so that they can have their Mega slot free? You can say it consolidates roles, but it certainly does not if you cannot revert back to the base form (meaning you lose the base form after all). A proper Explanation can at least help us see your vision, because it sounds pretty contradictary as it stands.

 

[Phione]

Resubmitting this

Name: Assassin to Cleaner
General Description: A Pokémon that relies on taking out its own counters in its base form so that it can attempt a late-game Mega sweep.
Justification: Many Pokémon are considered "cleaners", or a form of late game sweeper that requires their counters to be gone before they attempt a sweep. Mega Sharpedo is a perfect example of this, steamrolling through unprepared teams but requiring fast scarfers and priority to be completely taken care of, because it only has a single shot at sweeping. However, what if a Pokémon could take care of their own Mega form's checks in order to guarantee their own sweep? This would let us learn more about how cleaners work and when exactly they want to begin their sweep, and such a mon would not be unstoppable, because it of course would have its own set of checks and counters - and Mega Evolving to defeat them cannot be undone. In this way, we would learn more about cleaners and counters as well as the phenomenon of Mega Evolution.
Questions To Be Answered:

• Is it inevitable to have Pokémon capable of taking on both forms easily, given their necessary similarities?
• When, exactly, is the right time for a cleaner to sweep?
• Is there any advantage to be gained by tuning your set to sometimes beat your own counters when another teamslot can counter them?
• Is it truly necessary to eliminate all answers to your cleaner for them to sweep, or will some be eliminated in the sweep itself given an opportunity for this to happen?
• What sort of Pokémon are generally the most dangerous to cleaners as a whole?
• Is it possible to "clean" early-game, defying the standard stereotype, if the conditions are right?
• What even counts as a counter when counters are eliminated by the Pokémont they are supposed to beat if they come in at the wrong time?
• How will this affect prediction and switching?

Explanation: I think it's time we created a Mega CAP, and, well, this is what I have for it. Taking out your other form's in one form but leaving yourself open to lure moves or other Pokémon should you have Mega Evolved too early/late is an intriguing possibility, and presents to us the task of making such a mon without breaking it, or leaving it unable to beat any of its counters in any form. In addition, the cleaner is a very interesting and specific role, and I think it's time we explored it. Said most of what I wanted to in Justification, no more really here.

 

[jas61292]

A few more concept responses:

Pure Utility Mega by DetroitLolcat - I like the idea of a utility Pokemon, and with the power of a Mega to work with, we could certainly make something that could probably be the best utility Pokemon in the game. I have two major concerns though regarding this, and they are not to do with the concept, but more the execution. Is it really possible to make a Pokemon on the level of a Mega, and have it actually be pure utility. Unless we are really backing off on the base forms stats, a mega is going to have an very high BST, and it is very, very difficult to not make such a Pokemon at least decent at some other role. Obviously movepool and abilities play a role too, but I'd worry if it is even really possible to make something that strong and have it be "pure" utility. Secondly, your first question: is a pure utility Pokemon worth a team's Mega slot? While it is something important to consider, it is really a question that needs to be answered by voters for the concept to even be selected in the first place, since if the answer is no, then we should not be doing the concept in the first place. Of course, we may be wrong, but we shouldn't be chasing a goal we feel is unattainable. I'm not going to pass judgment on either of these things myself though. They are the kind of thing I think the community has to decide. With that said, I do think you could work on those other questions a bit. They get at some good points, but are worded in such a way that they seem more like reflective "well, what did we do?" questions, rather than discussion points. What I think you could do with some of them is rephrase so that they are more about what we want to do, and not the result thereof. For example, instead of asking whether it is possible to increase the viability of unseen utility move, ask what those moves are and why the are not viable currently. If we know that we can work to find ways to fix the problem rather than simply acknowledging it.

Captain Boomerang by Tsaeb XIII - Well... I like this. Its focus is on game roles and the phases of battle, but it not overly restrictive as far as what we can do with it. You may know by now that I am a big on the questions section, and I think yours are fantastic. There is a lot of to discuss here, and the concept gives direction, but allows for plenty of freedom. Furthermore, this fits in super well with a mega evolution project. If I had to list one concern, it would be that perhaps this is a bit too open and free, but that I don't know if that is actually the case. We may not have a specific role we need, but we have a limited selection of roles base on the game phase, and even with something really wide open, we have proven in the past with projects like Tomohawk that we are capable of stepping up to that kind of task. I can't say I really have any other advice to give here.

Generalist vs. Specialist by noobiess - Straight away my concern here is that this might not really be viable. Sure, we can give a worse/more niche typing and a more specific, less generally useful ability, but there is really only so much we can do to make a mega worse. Megas gain a ton of stats, and without breaking all precedent (which we will likely try to avoid), we can't really decrease any stats (especially high ones) more that a little bit. It is very, very hard to make a mega generally worse than the base, while still being viable with the same set. That last part right there is key. While there are megas that are just straight up worse, that is not what we want here. And there are also megas that are generally worse, but can take on a specific role differently or better, but only with a very different set. If a Pokemon is good with a specific set, it more likely than not will either want to Mevo or not. So... my biggest advice here would be to work on the Explanation section to try and show how this would be viable. It might be, but as is, I am having a very hard time seeing it.

Assassin to Cleaner by Phione - This is an interesting idea: a Pokemon with different counters in base and mega form, but who's mega form's counters are beaten by the base form. As you mention in your questions, one of the biggest issues could be that it is simply impossible to not have at least some Pokemon that can counter both forms, due to the necessary similarities. With that said, focusing on cleaners could certainly make for an interesting project. I think one thing you need here is a bit more work on the questions. "Would such a mon be broken?" is not really something that needs asking, since there is little to discuss about it in isolation, and if people think the answer is yes, the would not vote for the concept to begin with. What would be better would be to ask more questions about cleaners in general, and what makes them work like they do. If we know how they normally function in a team, we can better isolate some of that team support and put it in the base form.


Well... that's all caught up for now. I'll try to respond to any responses I got from other people later today. While I'm not going to put a specific time limit on this thread at the moment, we have been on concept for a while now, so I don't want this lasting too much longer. So, if you have an idea and have not submitted yet, get on it soon.

 

[Phione]

Edited my questions section a bit.

Also, to make this an actually useful post, I'd like to address Defense Booster. I immediately see one huge problem with it, mentioned in the post itself, and that is Phazing. Phazing is a problem for all boosters, but most attack boosters can get around it because, if they've accumulated enough boosts, they can KO the mon anyway. This mon is trying to stall out its opponents, meaning it can't afford to be phazed out at any cost, so I'm not really sure this concept can adequately handle phazers.

 

[SotheBlacKnight]

Edited my questions section a bit.

Also, to make this an actually useful post, I'd like to address Defense Booster. I immediately see one huge problem with it, mentioned in the post itself, and that is Phazing. Phazing is a problem for all boosters, but most attack boosters can get around it because, if they've accumulated enough boosts, they can KO the mon anyway. This mon is trying to stall out its opponents, meaning it can't afford to be phazed out at any cost, so I'm not really sure this concept can adequately handle phazers.

Well you could always give such a pokemon the ability Magic Bounce which can be extremely useful in many other situations as well as blocking Whirlwind and Roar, and Dragon Tail can be blocked by a sub. Another possibility would be the move Ingrain which would render phazing moves moot and if escaping becomes a liability then the pokemon could be a ghost type to get around that effect of Ingrain.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Well you could always give such a pokemon the ability Magic Bounce which can be extremely useful in many other situations as well as blocking Whirlwind and Roar, and Dragon Tail can be blocked by a sub. Another possibility would be the move Ingrain which would render phazing moves moot and if escaping becomes a liability then the pokemon could be a ghost type to get around that effect of Ingrain.

That pretty much railroads the ability discussion, as only Magic Bounce and maybe Soundproof get you around the Roar from the ability end.

 

[SotheBlacKnight]

My question for the Defense Boosting topic would be how would the community prevent the project from just creating another Mega Slowbro? While wanting to use moves like Cotton Guard or Amnesia is a novel idea I can see people just making Bulk Up and Calm Mind the focus instead. Thus how do you make a defensive poke effective in an offensive based meta without resorting to offense itself?

 

[Fire Blast]

I think people are being creative with the defensive boosting idea. At first glance it seems like there are a limited ways of appraocing the situation, but there are actually quite a few. For example, phasing can be stopped by Magic Bounce, but it can also be stopped by taunt. A fairy typing can be used to stop dragon tail. Or you could just go ahead and give it suction cups to prevent all phasing that way. These are just a few ways of appoaching the concept, and I'm sure they're plenty more.

As for making sure its not offense, I think the idea is that boosting move such as bulk up and calm mind are banned because we want to make sure the pokemon focuses on purely defensive boosting.

 

[Askeia]

Name: Free for All

General Description: A Pokemon who is typically not too amazing without set up, but its base form generates free turns very easily for its mega to get that crucial turn to set up

Justification: One free turn is sometimes all it takes to set up enough to win the game. Many top tier mons typically achieve said free turn with a forced switch. However, this often comes with a certain degree of risk involved, as one free turn for you usually also implies a free turn for the opponent. In the standard metagame, 2 very iconic Pokemons stand out at being able to generate free turns with almost no risk involved, they are Wobbufett and Gothitelle, with their Encore and Choice-Trick respectively, are are fearsome supporters in general, but yet are not used as commonly as more commonly used threats. FFA is a concept that lets us learn important the ability to generate free turns, and how it affects viability.

Questions To Be Answered:
- If the base form is so adept at creating free turns, why does it have to Mega in order to abuse that free turn; why can't it just abuse it in base form?
- What can possibly limit CAP21 such that it doesn't overcentralise the metagame, considering it sets up so easily?
- Considering its base form and Mega form are going to be performing different roles, how can we deal with the possible 4MSS what is almost bound to happen?
- How can we ensure that MegaCAP21 will still be somewhat useful even if its base form fails to create the free turn?

Explanation: My inspiration of FFA came from a match I had from quite a while ago. I had a Scarfed Magnezone locked into HP Fire, who just managed to get a KO on a Ferrothorn. My opponent promptly switched in Gardevoir and got 2 CM up in base form thanks to Traced Magnet Pull before proceeding to Mega evolve and run through my team with +2 HV. Another example not involving trapping abilities would be how Sharpedo earns a free turn simply by using Protect.

All in all, I think the current metagame is simply too offensive. An ability to generate free turns against offensive teams will inevitably help to slow the metagame down, which will help to revive stall and bulky offense teams.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Name: Free for All

General Description: A Pokemon who is typically not too amazing without set up, but its base form generates free turns very easily for its mega to get that crucial turn to set up

Justification: One free turn is sometimes all it takes to set up enough to win the game. Many top tier mons typically achieve said free turn with a forced switch. However, this often comes with a certain degree of risk involved, as one free turn for you usually also implies a free turn for the opponent. In the standard metagame, 2 very iconic Pokemons stand out at being able to generate free turns with almost no risk involved, they are Wobbufett and Gothitelle, with their Encore and Choice-Trick respectively, are are fearsome supporters in general, but yet are not used as commonly as more commonly used threats. FFA is a concept that lets us learn important the ability to generate free turns, and how it affects viability.

Questions To Be Answered:
- If the base form is so adept at creating free turns, why does it have to Mega in order to abuse that free turn; why can't it just abuse it in base form?
- What can possibly limit CAP21 such that it doesn't overcentralise the metagame, considering it sets up so easily?
- Considering its base form and Mega form are going to be performing different roles, how can we deal with the possible 4MSS what is almost bound to happen?
- How can we ensure that MegaCAP21 will still be somewhat useful even if its base form fails to create the free turn?

Explanation: My inspiration of FFA came from a match I had from quite a while ago. I had a Scarfed Magnezone locked into HP Fire, who just managed to get a KO on a Ferrothorn. My opponent promptly switched in Gardevoir and got 2 CM up in base form thanks to Traced Magnet Pull before proceeding to Mega evolve and run through my team with +2 HV. Another example not involving trapping abilities would be how Sharpedo earns a free turn simply by using Protect.

All in all, I think the current metagame is simply too offensive. An ability to generate free turns against offensive teams will inevitably help to slow the metagame down, which will help to revive stall and bulky offense teams.

Um, your Explanation isn't really explaining anything at all, you just gave metagame examples that are situational or untrue (Protect is not exactly a free turn, as your opponent can easily use that turn to set up something or switch out to a check/counter). Maybe it's me, but I think you also do not have a proper definition of what constitutes a "free turn". THAT is something that would be amazing to ask in the questions, because you are basing your concept on such a phrase when it's difficult to see how anything can be free. You seem to consider a free turn one where your opponent simply does not hit you with a strong attack, while others can see it as a turn where your opponent does not make a significant move. It can also be based on stuff like momentum, proactivity vs reactivity, and strategic sacrifices. Tbh, your questions are rather shallow and are based on assumptions that the Mega is actually good.

I also have to note a similar problem to another concept, which is how you expect that base form to be different from the Mega while carrying the same moveset? The base form generates free turns somehow (which you did not give good examples for), but how is it possible that a Pokemon that can do so would not able to use the "free" turn without Mega Evolving? In a similar vein, how can the Mega be unable to generate free turns itself; it should be EASIER for the Mega form to generate such turns due to the higher BST after all.

 

[SilvanRaptor]

Name: in battle forme change
General Description: Im thinking of the idea behind Darmanitan and zen mode. How can a similar idea be executed well in the current meta? (Forme change can be due to anything, ability, mega, perhaps there are other exploitable changes as well, such as when a move is used like meloetta? theres a lot to work with here)
Justification: I remember zen mode being such a cool idea that ended up being completely useless because turning defensive after losing half health just isnt viable. I want to see if we can make a forme change workable in a meta like the current
Questions To Be Answered:

• As far as I know, we've not made a CAP with a mega, we could look into that and see exactly what makes a mega work
• We dont need to work with megas even. How can a forme change be handled to work in favor of the player
• How can the unpredictability of a forme cause the momentum of the battle to switch?
• what if we play with both? players can choose between a mega or a forme? how would this effect the...uhh...well it'd be pretty fucking hard to predict

Explanation: look, i just design shit I really have no idea if this kind of idea is what smogon would be looking for, but this is something i've wanted to see us play with since gen 5 meta. I think this has a great potential to really shake up the meta in ways we've not even thought of?

you dont have to listen to this idea at all because i know fuck all of competitive pokemon, im just trying to think of something that would be fun to explore
really though if you feel like this doesnt contribute anything worthwhile you can just delete this comment. im not even sure if im the right person to even suggest something like this
maybe someone in the future will see it and be like "maybe we can do something with this" and they'll be more competent in this kind of stuff

sorry i-ill leave now

 

[WhiteDMist]

Since so few people are commenting, I guess I'll comment on the concepts I like.

Cool I can re-post this.

Name: Last Act of Defiance (dammit nyttyn this name was so much more awesome)

General Description: A Pokemon that is defined by its use of the move Parting Shot.

Parting Shot is a great move to base the CAP around, albeit hard to fit in with Mega CAP. It eases set up for teammates, but at a lower cost than something like Memento or Dual Screens; that alone is a great function, not to mention its pivoting capabilities. I also see no problem with the base form being somewhat weaker in order to keep the Mega form balanced, and I like the fact that it is a linear improvement. Too many concepts get caught up in the fact that its a Mega CAP, that they succeed and fail based on Mega Evolving alone, which does not sound like a great first foray into the Mega CAP process. Last At of Defiance has a good base concept to focus on, and there are so many possibilities in terms of stats, typing and movepool; it can easily be an improvement over Pangoro. My only addition might be how Speed factors into the concept: would a fast CAP or a slow CAP most effectively use Parting Shot? After all, Pangoro is slow and thus a bad user, but is it because of its Speed or other factors (mediocre bulk, bad defensive typing, better movepool for offensive sets, etc.)?

Name: Typing Underdog

General Description: A Pokémon which utilizes an undervalued typing to its full potential, by playing towards both its strengths and weaknesses.

I like this concept a bit more than the Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition. Rather than trying to patch up the weak points of a typing (you basically have to pour stats, moves, and abilities into it), this concept focuses on the type's natural capabilities. I'm sure we all immediately think of a general role that a certain type performs, so this concept already has a foundation in knowledge. But I think that by looking at types and type combinations that we generally cannot think of a definitive role for, we can fully define and understand the nuances of that type or type combination. Undervalued types generally have such flak for a reason, so a decision would also have to be made on the benefits of mono-typing or dual-typing. Mega CAP doesn't hinder this concept at all, the improved base stats might even help it. Only question would be how to avoid a situation where the roles of two types clash with each other? This is mostly because the CAP community tends to vote for interesting dual-types rather than single types.

Name: Pure Utility Mega

General Description: A Pokemon that controls field hazards and effects or uses support, status, or utility moves to their greatest effects.

It's a good concept, if a bit hard to pull off I imagine. Very few teams would likely give up a chance at a powerful offensive Mega, except maybe defensive and stall teams. I think the main focus of this would be two-fold: a) having enough utility that differentiates this CAP from non-Mega utility mons (maybe a rare utility) and b) making the most out of the benefits of a Mega Pokemon. We already know that absorbing Knock Off and Trick is a pretty cool benefit to Mega Stones, but maybe an additional question would be what are the more subtle defensive benefits to a Mega Stone/Mega Evolving?

Reposting from the workshop thread:

Name: Captain Boomerang

General Description: This Pokemon is designed to specialize in the early and late game phases of a battle.

I think this is the only concept I like that revolves around changing roles in battle. Because this concept doesn't restrict us to a weaker base form, nor limit us to two overly separate roles, it is more probable that the community can pull this off. This concept would delve into what roles are generally considered "early-game roles", "mid-game roles", and "late-game roles". Mid-game in particular tends to get merged with either early or late game, depending on the context after all. But there is a clear distinction of what roles are better fulfilled as early as possible (hazards and scouts mostly), and what roles are best late game (sweepers). Everything else kind of blurs and can fit into one or the other. That would make this an interesting learning experience as well.

Reposting this from the other thread, it didn't get much attention.

Name: Defense Booster
General Description: A pokemon that succeeds through defense boosting moves.

I'm a little more hesitant to like this one, because defensive boosting has its issues. The community can always try to account for many of these issues: crits can be stopped or mitigated with abilities or higher bulk, phazing can be blocked with abilities or moves, and passiveness can just be avoided with a good movepool. However, it doesn't easily ignore the fact that most defensive boosting is slower than offensive boosting, giving your opponent several turns to respond. A few more questions you may want to consider are: a) how do we mitigate passiveness b) how can we be proactive and force the opponent into reactive actions c) how does Mega Evolution fit into this concept?

I might post my thoughts on the other concepts as well, but I wanted to show my support for these first.

 

[Tsaeb XIII]

Captain Boomerang by Tsaeb XIII - Well... I like this. Its focus is on game roles and the phases of battle, but it not overly restrictive as far as what we can do with it. You may know by now that I am a big on the questions section, and I think yours are fantastic. There is a lot of to discuss here, and the concept gives direction, but allows for plenty of freedom. Furthermore, this fits in super well with a mega evolution project. If I had to list one concern, it would be that perhaps this is a bit too open and free, but that I don't know if that is actually the case. We may not have a specific role we need, but we have a limited selection of roles base on the game phase, and even with something really wide open, we have proven in the past with projects like Tomohawk that we are capable of stepping up to that kind of task. I can't say I really have any other advice to give here.

Thanks for the positive feedback. As with many CAPs, the key to handling the openness would be Concept Assessment. If we come out of Concept Assessment not knowing which specific roles we're trying to fill, the rest of the Project would be a train wreck. The Concept Assessment would need to unearth a pairing of roles that can potentially fit together on a single set that also both contribute to an existing team archetype, which narrows that openness down to the point where the rest of the project has a fairly clear direction (although still leaving plenty of options for how to get there). I wasn't around for Tomohawk but, from what I've heard, much of its success can be attributed to the fact that the Concept Assessment nailed down the direction for the Project; I see the same thing needing to take place for this concept, and I have every faith in you as TL being able to make that happen. As an aside, in light of some of the comments you've made to others, I've tweaked a couple of my questions slightly. Although they still ask the same thing, they're now worded to work more effectively as framing questions throughout the project rather than reflective questions for after the project.

Time for some feedback of my own. Let's start with concepts I rather like:
- Last Act of Defiance (Snobalt ) - Like many players, when I first saw Pangoro's signature move, I was astounded by how much potential it had. Parting Shot is, in theory, an amazing move. I'd love to see a CAP that actually brings out its potential. My one concern is similar to that expressed by Jas: that, assuming we are trying to make both the base form and the Mega viable in some way (which EternalSnowman has suggested is the case, although clarification from our TL would be helpful), I'm left with questions as to how to ensure that the base form won't just end up being used to support other more powerfully offensive Megas. There are potential ways it can be achieved - perhaps the base form lacks the Speed (or has too much Speed) to pull off Parting Shot in the way that it wants to, but has a typing and/or ability that helps it eventually create the opportunity to Mega Evolve when the time comes. I'd suggest including something along the lines of this in your Questions section.
- Typing Underdog (Cretacerus ) - This reminds me of an experience I've had when constructing in-game teams under self-imposed challenge conditions from time to time; a Pokemon I wouldn't ordinarily give the time of day to, such as Mothim, turns out to fill a niche that my team actually needs because it's got just enough movepool, and/or stats to do what its typing says it should be able to do. It would be particularly cool if we found a type to use that had two potential niches, both characteristic of that type, and we were able to let the base form fill one while the Mega fills the other. If I'm understanding the difference between this concept and Extreme Makeover correctly, Extreme Makeover would be like giving Intimidate to an Ice/Fire Pokemon in an attempt to mitigate its weakness against many Physically biased types; Typing Underdog would instead grant Intimidate and decent defences to something like a Bug/Flying Pokemon, a type which should, in theory, be a good counter to Fighting types if it weren't for their near ubiquitous Rock coverage. Rather than taking a type that's inherently bad against Physical opponents and trying to let it handle them, it takes a type that should in theory be good at a role and gives it what it needs to do it well. Assuming I have this distinction correct, I quite like where this project could take us.
- The Generalizer (NumberCruncher ) - This plays with some similar questions to my own concept, and would be more than happy to see it chosen for the project.
- Pure Utility Mega (DetroitLolcat ) - I love this idea in theory. I'm not so sure that it's possible to allocate that +100 BST to anything halfway viable and have it incapable of playing some decent offensive or walling role, mind you, at least not without seriously restricting its movepool. I'd be interested to see an example of something that might actually fulfill this concept added to your explanation.

Toxic Spikes Supreme (WhiteDMist ) and Switching it Up (RishRaff ) are concepts that, in any other CAP, would be on the list above, but that I struggle to see making the most of a Mega CAP. I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong though, because they're otherwise concepts that I'd like.

Two other concepts that, on the surface, sound appealing but that I have grave concerns about are I Use My Own Weather, Thank You Very Much (EpicUmbreon29 ) and One Turn of Bliss (SotheBlacKnight ). Both of these concepts place an incredible amount of focus on a single turn in the battle, the turn of Mega Evolution. Either you time it perfectly, or you've wasted most of what the Pokemon has been designed around. This has two problems, one practical and the other philosophical. Firstly, to ask a community voting democratically to tune a Pokemon to the point where it's set up optimally to take advantage of that one turn is asking a lot. It wouldn't take a lot to go wrong to render such a Pokemon far too risky to make sense on the risk vs reward spectrum. As for the philosophical objection, almost every turn in a Pokemon battle is uncertain. If every battle were decided by only a single turn, Pokemon could not be termed a competitive game (at least, not any more so than Paper, Scissors, Rock). It is only across many turns that the stochastic nature of individual turns collapses down to a probability distribution that can be influenced by the skills of the players involved. Competitive battles are those that, by their very nature, make as many turns as possible influential and have as few absolutely critical turns as possible (if a turn is critical, it should only have become that way because of the outcome of prior less critical turns). Because of this, I consider a concept that places immense focus on a single turn to be inherently anti-competitive, because (in order to be worth the risk in the first place) the reward from getting that one turn right would have to have a substantial influence on the result of the game as a whole, placing the game more in the hands of a single well predicted turn than genuine good play throughout the game. While it might be possible to ensure that one turn could only ever arise as a result of good play earlier in the game, here I return to the pragmatic objection - there is absolutely no way we're going to be able to tune a Pokemon that finely.

There are a few other concepts that I don't mind, but I think could do with some work - I'll try to offer some suggestions for them tomorrow, if I get the chance.

 

[ginganinja]

Last Act of Defiance

Eh, I don't really like Parting Shot for our concept, mostly because I don't see any synergy whatsoever for a Mega Evo. It really doesn't need a mega evolution to succeed at its goal, because its largely playing a supportive role. In fact, I would argue that people would prefer having a base form, because it lets them pair it up with Mega Scizor, Mega Gyarados, Mega Metagross, Mega X Powerful Sweeper/Wallbreaker and so on. You either require the pokemon to be a mega (in which case it sees limited use because you cannot combo it with some of the best sweepers around), or its not, in which case...why have it as a Mega concept.

Pure Utility Mega

DLC already knows that I hate this concept, because it creates certain misconceptions about the OU metagame. Firstly, and most importantly, utility mega (and defensive Mega pokemon) do exist in the metagame unlike otherwise implied. The OU Council was happy enough to list several for me when I expressed an interest just in case I was missing something obvious, and (obviously) there are several utility base pokemon as well. Secondly, in discussing this with DLC its clear there is already confusion as to what actually is a utility pokemon. DLC sees pokemon such as Mega Venusaur as not utility pokemon, because they commonly carry 3 attacks, and only 1 single utility move. In contrast, back in DPP Swampert was considered as a strong utility pokemon my most competitive players, despite also running a similar number of utility moves as Mega Venusaur. With a fairly strong split as to what "defines" a utility mon, I forsee difficulties during future voting when people cannot agree on this particular term.

Thirdly, I'm actually unsure as to how successful such a project would be. Mega slots are precious, and making your Stealth Rocker a Mega pokemon is a huge move, which you could be running something much more influential. Consider that there are several very good non mega pokemon out there, which is competing with this CAP for a slot. If (say), Skarmory does a better job than this CAP at setting up hazards, why would I run it as a Mega?

 

[jas61292]

Well, before I say anything else, let me respond to the two most recent concepts:

Free for All by Askeia - So, is this a concept about trying to use the base form to generate free turns of setup so you can sweep with the mega form? That's what it sounds like, but I'm not 100% sure based on the way it is worded. WhiteDMist already gave some good feedback here, but I would just add that I really think you need to clarify this concept a bit more. Your justification talks about how free turns can be powerful and how there are Pokemon that can generate these free turns, but never really comes back around to saying what this CAP itself should be doing. That is really its biggest flaw at the moment.

In Battle Form Change by Doran Dragon - This was mentioned in the OP, and throughout the thread, but this entire project is actually going to be making a Pokemon and its Mega Evolution. As such, while we will have a concept that goes beyond that, we will inherantly be making a Pokemon with an in battle form change. That does basically mean that your concept is therefore redundant with the project itself, and not one we would go with, I hope it means you will stick around for this project, since we are basically doing what you wanted to see anyways.

-----

So, with those responses done, at this point in the thread I would like to put out a approximately 24 hour warning. I'm not sure if I'll be available to make the slate exactly 24 hours from now, so it might end up being longer, but this thread will definitely close tomorrow. With that said, I would just like to say a few more things here to people reading this thread:

First, if you have a concept and have not submitted it yet, get on it now. Whether or not a concept makes the slate is all about the quality of the concept and its potential for a good project, not about when it was submitted relative to the start of the thread. But... it needs to be submitted if it wants to be considered.

Second, if you have made any significant changes to your concept after I commented on it (more than just fixing typos or whatnot) and did not post in this thread saying so, please do. I want to give every concept a fair shot, but I am not going to go back and fully re-analyze a concept unless I know it has been adjusted.

Finally, whether you are submitting a concept or not, please feel free to comment on all the other concepts in the thread. Being able to get other people's opinions on the various concepts is a big help, and I would just like to thank everyone who has already done so.

 

[Minnakht]

Probably a bit too similar to a few previous concepts, but might still be worth a try.

Name: Wearer of Many Masks
General Description: A Pokemon viable with various held items, its Mega Stone being one of them, obfuscating its immediate purpose in the team.
Justification: Knowledge about the opposing team is a major thing. Many creative sets exist as a result of defying expectations - that the Pokemon you're up against shouldn't be able to outspeed, but it actually had a Choice Scarf all along, that it will fall to the next hit, but it won't because one of the type mitigation berries, or that it can't take yours out quickly, but it can because of an unusual coverage move. These are all elements which help prevent a battle from being planned out as soon as the team preview happens. Mega Evolution allows this trickery to reach new heights as a Pokemon can change its ability or shift its stats significantly, such as Mega Latios gaining a good Attack stat or the two Mega Charizards targeting different defences.

Questions To Be Answered:

* How effective can bluffing and/or not revealing certain information be?
* Will the Mega form see much use, considering existence of other Pokemon whose Mega Evolutions are more necessary for their viability while other options are planned to exist for this?
* Will people bother running Frisk to scout this if its item dependency is done really well?
* Will the options available remain roughly at par in viability as the metagame shifts, or will one become dominant? Will new ones arise?

Explanation: In the end, I'm not much of a competitive player, and so my CAP submission is marred by what I'd like to see designed - the various trickery, theorymonning and adjusting stats to that given moves reach crucial KOs only with given items, or avoiding KOs that way - instead of truly being about what I'd like to see played. This, and I'm probably reaching too much into the possibility of completely changing the Pokemon's role as it goes Mega instead of it just being a nice power boost, which what a few other concepts are about. If this gets picked, I'll be happy as a clam, if it doesn't, I'll be happy for whatever does. And, well, it'd probably help if I knew that the previous CAP also was about unpredictability, although in a different manner...

 

[Billy the Uncle]

Name: Wolf in a Sheep's clothing

General Description: a Pokémon that pairs well with other Mega Evolution-able Pokémon.

Justification: from Team Preview, it is usually quite easy to pinpoint which one of the opponent's pokes is the one equipped with a mega stone. CAP21 will make this guess a bit harder: it should pair well with other Megas in its base form while its own Mega Evolution goes well with other pokes' base forms.

Questions To Be Answered:
- How can we make a Pokémon that is viable in both forms?
- Which are the best candidates to pair up with CAP21?
- How much advantage can this added variance give you in a battle?
- Is it worth to make a whole Pokémon just to harness this kind of tactical advantage?
- Which roles are we giving to CAP21's base and Mega forms?

Explanation: As a random battle aficionado, I discovered that knowing which one of your opponent's pokes is the Mega one can give you a sizeable tactical advantage. The foe's Pinsir is no longer that scary after you saw his Mega Mewtwo X. Most of the times, however, spotting the Mega is pretty trivial: when you see an Altaria, Gardevoir, or Pinsir on the opposing team, you can guess pretty safely that they're going to Mega-Evolve as soon as they hit the field. But what if we make this harder? What if your opponent no longer knows for sure which mega poke to expect from Team Preview? By forming a core with another Pokémon, in which either can be the Mega Evolving one, CAP21 adds another aspect to the already multi-faceted craft of prediction in a Pokémon battle.

 

[WhiteDMist]

This took so long to write lol

Toxic Spikes Supreme (WhiteDMist ) and Switching it Up (RishRaff ) are concepts that, in any other CAP, would be on the list above, but that I struggle to see making the most of a Mega CAP. I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong though, because they're otherwise concepts that I'd like.

Yeah, my concept doesn't make the most of a Mega CAP, but it does at least work with it relatively well. In my concept, I described that there are two facets to the concept: the successful setting of Toxic Spikes, and the maintenance of Toxic Spikes. Any form can set Toxic Spikes, but the base form might be better at guaranteeing they are set: the Mega form would be ideal in the role of maintaining hazards through offensive/defensive pressure, through higher BST. I also noted before that people are focusing too much on the fact that this is a Mega CAP and focus on making a Mega Pokemon, rather than look at whether their concept(s) can accommodate a Mega. Mega CAP opens up new concepts to be sure, but I see no reason to restrict ourselves to Mega CAP concepts; as long as a concept doesn't hinder the making of a Mega CAP, it should be looked at for its own merits. Some concepts can simply look at a Mega evolution as an additional benefit, as long as it IS an actual benefit.

Name: I Use My Own Weather, Thank You Very Much

General Description: A Pokemon that, in its base form, brings out weather, and in its mega form takes great advantage of that weather

I know you've mentioned that the base form doesn't need to have a weather setting ability to fulfill this concept, so you really should change your concept description and such. It still makes it sound like the base form MUST have a weather setting ability, which is a bit of a restriction for the ability phase, limiting the CAP to one of 4 abilities only. I'll also note that most of your questions run on the assumption that this CAP will an ideal movepool, typing, etc., and also have to wait until the actual completion of the CAP to finish. Maybe a question or two that the community can try to answer during the creation would help, though I would wait until you've clarified the concept first to suggest any.

Name: Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition (Resubmitted) Originally by Theorymon.

General Description: A Pokemon who's typing, while normally considered poor defensively and/or offensively, becomes a strong selling point of the Pokemon itself via help from its ability, stats, and/or movepool.

A good concept, though I thought that it focused too much on patching a type combination's weaknesses to try and turn it into a benefit. I also think that the question about overcoming a bad typing is hard to answer, because looking at Mollux, it didn't overcome it so much as the community just threw stuff on it to remove as many weaknesses as possible. I think it's the way it's phrased more than anything, as you really do need to differentiate this concept from a similar concept where a Pokemon succeeds DESPITE a poor typing (you already noted Volcarona, and I am referring to Typing Underdog).

Name: Suicide Mega

General Description: This pokemon would effectively utilize supportive/offensive tactics but often ends up dying in the process of contributing to the end result of a game.

Justification: Within OU right now, many of the toptier threats with the realm of the Megas mainly have the bulk or reliable recovery to be able to survive throughout the game and contribute throughout the game such as MMeta's high Bulk, ZardX and MAlt's Roost. Even the less bulky Megas such as MGarde and MDiancie are often aimed to be preserved throughout the match. Many nonmega mons like Scolipede, Staraptor and Azu are able to contribute the overall game and die after finishing their job.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Can a Mega be successful by only being able to contribute for a part of a match?
• Will it face competition for a mega slot since it only will be utilized in part of a match and will be forgone for other Megas?
• How do we ensure that it's low priority to the player (i.e the player doesn't just save it like a MGarde-esque mon)?
• Can suicide mons still be effective in this sort of metagame?

Explanation: Recently I have been experimenting with Hazard Stacking offense and two of the mons that I have used on that team (Scolipede and Honchkrow) stood out to me in particular. They both play big roles on the team despite them being out on the field for max 5 turns a game. I rarely switch them out of a fight and they often die in the process yet they do exactly what I want them to. They are a good example of playing supportive/offensive roles while killing themselves. I want to be able to utilize this idea of low survivability to create a mega that would be effective since many of the current top tier megas have the bulk and recovery to stay throughout an entire match.

Does this concept limit the CAP to hazard setting or Dual Screens? I think maybe you can add in a question about "what roles need to be accomplished as early as possible", and "what key strategic niche is worth the sacrifice of this CAP over a non-Mega?" The concept has potential, but I really hope it isn't limited to either suicide lead or wallbreaker (I'd also like to know how a wallbreaker would be "suicidal"for this CAP, any more so than other offensive Pokemon).

So Im kinda new, but I wanted to try my hand at this so here is mine.

Name: Switching it Up

General Description: A Pokemon with a specific niche of acting as a pseudo-hazer that specifically utilizes forced switching moves, such as Roar, to stop set up sweepers

While I and another concept also focus on a single move (or in your case, a type of move), there is a key difference: this concept does not set up a win condition, or is a win condition unto itself. It ends up requiring more support to be a win condition, which is strange for a support type move. On its own, it hinders your opponent's win condition, but is technically a delaying tactic if you have no way to prevent a set up again. The other sticky problem is the negative priority: it nearly invalidates the Speed stat for the actual move. I think adding a question about whether the CAP would be a win condition, or a reactionary defense would be in order.

Name: The Generalizer

General Description: A viable, highly-specialized CAPmon whose mega sacrifices its ability to preform its specialty in exchange for more utility.

Justification: When you look at megas, there's a general trend wherein a Mega Evolution either improves the pokemon's ability to preform what it's good at (Mega Heracross), gives the pokemon a new niche (Mega Charizard Y), changes the pokemon's niche (Mega Diancie), or gives new utility to an already utility-oriented mon (Mega Audino, and to a lesser extent Mega Sableye). This pokemon intentionally ruins its ability to shine in order to be more generally good.

Mega Evolution gives us a significant advantage with a play style like this because Mega Evolution can happen in the middle of a match. This means that the CAPmon can preform his duty up to the point where his expertise is no longer needed and turn himself into a more generically good monster. This gives the specialty even more powerful, since you only keep it until it grows stale.

Questions to be Answered:

• What roles lose power as the game extends and would want to lose their forte in the middle of the match?
• What team archetypes would a pokemon that changes into a utility mon partway through the match fit into that wouldn't rather have something that's always a utility mon?
• What typings and abilities are good, but only good in the earlier stages of the match?

Explanation: There are a few different ways I could see this working. The obvious way is to give the pokemon one incredible stat which gets knocked down when it Mega Evolves, but there are other ways to do it. For example, suppose CAP had really good typing for wallbreaking, and its Mega had better stats, but changed his typing to something less appealing for wallbreaking. A similar thing can be done with abilities.

I mean, you could also have the base be a scout and the Mega be a cleaner, so its not like this concept is limited. I have two major issues with this concept: a) your definitions of "specialization" and "utility" for this concept (the usage of these terms here are a bit different in context in other areas of battling I think) and b) how can you lose your specialty when Mega Evolving when you keep the same moveset? Not that I can't find a way, but I want to see how you answer the second one, or even place that in the questions, as it would be what the community would have to decide as well.

Name: It's Simple.
General Description: A Pokémon that breaks important attacks with a good coverage (I mean EarthBeam, BoltBeam, GhostFight). Its typing permits to set up quickly.

Er, my perception of this concept is different from jas'. It sounds like you want somethign that can easily get a single turn to set u and sweep with a 2 attack combination that has excellent coverage. It's a bit too specific if that is the case, and it's hard to not already know how the concept would turn out: a good defensive typing (with at least 1 STAB move that is part of the 2 attack combo), above average defensive stats, decent speed and offenses, a good boosting move. Would you disagree? I mean, it looks very limiting the way it is now, and you also have to note that it cannot become too overpowering, which is hard to do with such good coverage; you also good abilities and stats, which is a bit over the top.

Name: One Turn of Bliss

General Description: A pokemon that is able to take advantage of the turn it Mega-evolves by making use of it's ability before and after evolving. As a result the turn of Mega-evolution becomes crucial to most if not all of it's strategies and sets.

It's a cool idea, one that forces players to think before they act. While the Pokemon itself can be used multiple times, the concept focuses on the change in abilities during Mega Evolution, which only happens once. Timing is key for this concept, which is a double-edged sword for it. On the one hand, it ups the overall skill level of players by forcing them to think and time strategically (as a former TL, this is highly appealing to me); on the other hand, such theory doesn't always work out in practice as well as it does on paper (or in assessment in this case). Also, does this limit the concept to having only these powerful abilities (many of them are just generically powerful on their own after all).

Name: Abilities Lord
General Description: A CAP that would be valid without Mega Evolving at all due to its ability (i.e. Slowbro), while the Mega Evolved CAP would have a different ability that allows this CAP to do a totally different role than it's normal forme would perform.
Questions To Be Answered:

• What abilities are determinating on a Pokemon's role?
• Could we possibly create a CAP that it's fittable in all playstyles and makes them at least as viable as they currently are in the OU metagame?
• Which form of playstyle and role the most seen abilities in OU favor?
• What Pokemon have most, if not all of their viability based on their's ability?
• Which Pokemon are able to perform varied roles in the OU metagame?
• If we picked any specific X Pokemon among these, would any of them have at least one OU threat that effectively counters all of its sets?
• If the answer is no to any X, does X's ability contribute to any form to this? If yes, how?
• What do we want this CAP to be able to perform for a team?
• How different would be tactics to counter this Pokemon assuming it has very different roles?
• Can this CAP's base form be equally viable as its Mega Evolved form in the OU metagame?
• May all of these CAP's possible roles be equally wanted on a large variety of team?
• How can a player abuse the opponent's lack of knowledge on what his or her Pokemon actually do?
• How can this same opponent possibly counter this lack of knowledge?
• Is it possible to guess out a Pokemon with multiple roles role on a specific team? If yes, how?

The last 3 questions are pointless imo, considering we are making its movepool so it's going to be hard to surprise anyone at all; people who don't know the CAP wouldn't really be playing the CAP playtest either. Also, how many roles is this concept supposed to have? I see 2, but your questions seem loaded to direct us to 2 or more, which is kind of much. Unless you concept relies on fitting on all types of teams, question 2 may not be something we focus on. The concept is good, the questions are a bit leading (with a bunch of unnecessary ones).

Name: Multi-Role Mega

General Description: A CAP that would play two completely different (viable) roles in its base form and mega form.

Well, most of the Mega CAP concepts seem to have the same idea of each form having different roles; yours in particular is focusing on making both forms viable, which you should clarify in your general description. A couple of questions to add would be: a) "what situations would this CAP want to Mega Evolve, and what situations would it not?" and b) can the same moveset fulfill 2 different roles?" It's a decent concept, but seeing as almost every concept seems to be asking the same thing, I can't really get excited for this, sorry :/

Name: Perfect unbalance

General Description: A pokemon with many huge disparities, be it in stats, typing, abilities or movepool, that yet stays perfectly balanced for the OU metagame.

If I understand the concept correctly, it is that the CAP would have some extremely high points and some extremely low points. But that does limit it to only a few possible roles. In addition, what would be the limit of disparity? Would all of stats, abilities, movepool, and typing have to do so, or just one of them? Some? I don't think that it being open-ended is too huge, as long as the concept assessment stage focuses it properly. The main problem would probably be having the community try and strike such a balance, as its truly going to be walking on the edge of a knife. If the low points all stack up, can the CAP be too difficult to use? If the high points combine, can the CAP become too powerful and overcentralizing?

Resubmitting this

Name: Assassin to Cleaner
General Description: A Pokémon that relies on taking out its own counters in its base form so that it can attempt a late-game Mega sweep.

Good concept, just one major issue to be addressed: ow does a Pokemon with the same moveset break its Mega form's counters without the Mega form being able to do so on its own? I guess it can be an answer for the community to find, but it would help to know your own.

Name: in battle forme change
General Description: Im thinking of the idea behind Darmanitan and zen mode. How can a similar idea be executed well in the current meta? (Forme change can be due to anything, ability, mega, perhaps there are other exploitable changes as well, such as when a move is used like meloetta? theres a lot to work with here)

I mean, this is already a Mega CAP. Idk, it sounds like its being done right now. And if you add another form change on top of it, it ends up making this CAP rather stretched, and there's no actual solid concept to base it around. Interesting, but maybe for a later time when the Mega CAP process is down pat.

Name: Wearer of Many Masks
General Description: A Pokemon viable with various held items, its Mega Stone being one of them, obfuscating its immediate purpose in the team.
Justification: Knowledge about the opposing team is a major thing. Many creative sets exist as a result of defying expectations - that the Pokemon you're up against shouldn't be able to outspeed, but it actually had a Choice Scarf all along, that it will fall to the next hit, but it won't because one of the type mitigation berries, or that it can't take yours out quickly, but it can because of an unusual coverage move. These are all elements which help prevent a battle from being planned out as soon as the team preview happens. Mega Evolution allows this trickery to reach new heights as a Pokemon can change its ability or shift its stats significantly, such as Mega Latios gaining a good Attack stat or the two Mega Charizards targeting different defences.

Questions To Be Answered:

* How effective can bluffing and/or not revealing certain information be?
* Will the Mega form see much use, considering existence of other Pokemon whose Mega Evolutions are more necessary for their viability while other options are planned to exist for this?
* Will people bother running Frisk to scout this if its item dependency is done really well?
* Will the options available remain roughly at par in viability as the metagame shifts, or will one become dominant? Will new ones arise?

Explanation: In the end, I'm not much of a competitive player, and so my CAP submission is marred by what I'd like to see designed - the various trickery, theorymonning and adjusting stats to that given moves reach crucial KOs only with given items, or avoiding KOs that way - instead of truly being about what I'd like to see played. This, and I'm probably reaching too much into the possibility of completely changing the Pokemon's role as it goes Mega instead of it just being a nice power boost, which what a few other concepts are about. If this gets picked, I'll be happy as a clam, if it doesn't, I'll be happy for whatever does. And, well, it'd probably help if I knew that the previous CAP also was about unpredictability, although in a different manner...

I think this is a decent concept, especially since we are not limiting it to Mega Evolving. Idk how the community as a whole would react to it though. I do like the question about bluffing, and as a whole, your questions should expand on that.

Name: Wolf in a Sheep's clothing

General Description: a Pokémon that pairs well with other Mega Evolution-able Pokémon.

Justification: from Team Preview, it is usually quite easy to pinpoint which one of the opponent's pokes is the one equipped with a mega stone. CAP21 will make this guess a bit harder: it should pair well with other Megas in its base form while its own Mega Evolution goes well with other pokes' base forms.

Questions To Be Answered:
- How can we make a Pokémon that is viable in both forms?
- Which are the best candidates to pair up with CAP21?
- How much advantage can this added variance give you in a battle?
- Is it worth to make a whole Pokémon just to harness this kind of tactical advantage?
- Which roles are we giving to CAP21's base and Mega forms?
Explanation: As a random battle aficionado, I discovered that knowing which one of your opponent's pokes is the Mega one can give you a sizeable tactical advantage. The foe's Pinsir is no longer that scary after you saw his Mega Mewtwo X. Most of the times, however, spotting the Mega is pretty trivial: when you see an Altaria, Gardevoir, or Pinsir on the opposing team, you can guess pretty safely that they're going to Mega-Evolve as soon as they hit the field. But what if we make this harder? What if your opponent no longer knows for sure which mega poke to expect from Team Preview? By forming a core with another Pokémon, in which either can be the Mega Evolving one, CAP21 adds another aspect to the already multi-faceted craft of prediction in a Pokémon battle.

While I like the bluffing aspect, I don't like the pairing aspect. CAP hasn't had a good track record of pairing the CAP to another Pokemon after all. And you would need to find a Mega partner that would want to stay in its base form as well in order to form a solid bluff. Considering the fact that we would choose the partner, it makes the bluff less effective, as you would simply prepare for the possibility of both Megas.

I've actually been noting that a lot of these concepts could do with a question about proactivity versus reactivity as well. Just an observation.

 

[Phione]

Good concept, just one major issue to be addressed: ow does a Pokemon with the same moveset break its Mega form's counters without the Mega form being able to do so on its own? I guess it can be an answer for the community to find, but it would help to know your own.

Simple: through a changing defensive typing and STAB option, as well as the Ability and possibly a varying stat spread.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Okay, let's seriously try to sort out all of this confusion between Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition and Typing Underdog.

Extreme Makeover was Mollux's concept. The basic premise is to take a poor typing, either defensively, offensively, or both, and turn it into as close of a good typing as possible. It is NOT about dumping massive stats, great abilities, or killer movepools into making a Pokemon with a sucky typing that is still somehow good. Volcarona and Ho-Oh both have massive stats that help make them good despite their typing, and Volcarona also has a fantastic movepool (or at least a few very fantastic moves) and Ho-Oh has Regenerator to help "fix" their 4x Rock weakness. Mollux did not have sky high stats or any super rare, super defining moves. One could argue that Dry Skin was an ability to help Mollux and buff out its typing weaknesses. However, at closer examination this is not the full story by any means.

Mollux's concept, and for the most part all of its competitive components, work together to turn a should-be bad typing into something that is new and fills a unique niche based upon the typing. Heck, even in the OP under Justification, Extreme Makeover is the example given for a Pokemon that creates a new niche in the metagame (this part of the OP has been recycled and exists in previous concept submission OPs, so it's something that has been established as being true for quite some time). I honestly don't see as strong of a correlation between typing and new niche exploration with Typing Underdog as that illustrated with Extreme Makeover. Dry Skin buffed Mollux in the Rain, but hindered it in the Sun, which was certainly a very new niche for a Fire type. And while rain does hurt a Fire type offensively, it made Mollux a bit bulkier and helped patch up the defensive weaknesses of the Fire type simply through the recovery. The removal of the water weakness was merely gravy. At the end of the day, Mollux was a new-niche Pokemon where the new niche was dependent on rethinking, or remodeling, a typing that on paper should be bad.

A lot of people seem to be saying that Typing Underdog is about playing to the strengths of typing and not try to compensate for its weaknesses. I think the example of a Rock/Steel typing has been used, so I'll carry on with this. The basic gist seems to using Rock moves offensively because of its good typing match ups when used offensively. This makes sense on paper, but then one realizes that there's few truly viable special rock moves, and the physical moves that are legal for CAP have drawbacks as well. Surely, an assortment of various abilities could patch up the move drawbacks, but then you're just patching up a drawback to the move in order to play to the typing's strengths (using rock head to patch up head smash, using compound eyes to patch up stone miss, using sheer force to patch up rock slide). I do not think that it is truly possible for either Typing Makeover or Typing Underdog to be successful without either of them playing to the typing's strengths and simultaneously patching up some form of drawback. When you get into the nitty gritty process, both of these concepts seem to needing most of the same things. You can frame it as playing to strengths or patching up weaknesses and prioritize one slightly over the other, but realistically both qualities are needed.

EDIT: Also, I did this a while ago, but I added a paragraph or so to my explanation section regarding some of jas's concerns on what a bad typing could be in g6. Just saying this here so jas knows.

 

[SotheBlacKnight]

if you have made any significant changes to your concept after I commented on it (more than just fixing typos or whatnot) and did not post in this thread saying so, please do. I want to give every concept a fair shot, but I am not going to go back and fully re-analyze a concept unless I know it has been adjusted.

I have replace some of the questions and have put some example ideas in the explanation.

It's a cool idea, one that forces players to think before they act. While the Pokemon itself can be used multiple times, the concept focuses on the change in abilities during Mega Evolution, which only happens once. Timing is key for this concept, which is a double-edged sword for it. On the one hand, it ups the overall skill level of players by forcing them to think and time strategically (as a former TL, this is highly appealing to me); on the other hand, such theory doesn't always work out in practice as well as it does on paper (or in assessment in this case). Also, does this limit the concept to having only these powerful abilities (many of them are just generically powerful on their own after all).

The only real limits I see to my concept is that the base form has to have the abilities: Gale Wings, Prankster, Stall, and trapping abilities. There maybe some more abilities if the concept is stretched to include some others like Illusion, Imposter, Defiant or more. I admit some of these are powerful all on their own but the idea was to make that one turn pretty ridiculous.