CAP 29 - Part 3 - Concept Assessment 2

[CadmusRhodium]

So I was looking up Color Change on Bulbapedia to see if it interacted differently with any specific moves, and I noticed something interesting about its interactions with Future Sight and Doom Desire:

Generation V onward
Future Sight and Doom Desire now activate Color Change when they hit (they do not activate Color Change when used).

Basically, what this means is that if we are against a mon that uses Future Sight or Doom Desire, we get to keep whatever typing we currently have for a turn. This could lead to some interesting matchups with Future Sight/Doom Desire users, especially Equilibra, since it can't combo Doom Desire directly into Earth Power for SE damage like was thought previously.

That’s true, but keep in mind it also learns Flash Cannon, which it doesn’t always use, but has as an option. That’s the thing about Color Change; anything with a decent offensive presence could potentially kill you if it’s running the right set. If it ends up being a good mon, things will start running moves specifically to check CAP28, and most mons are capable of doing so even if their movepools are kinda shallow. If CAP28 is bad, there won’t be a lot of sets run specifically to take advantage of color change, but a lot of teams will be capable of doing so anyway. And, you know, it won’t be great, so there won’t be much reason to run it anyway.
Color Change is probably the hardest ability to work with we could have chosen for this project, as while it might not be the worst of the negative abilities, it doesn’t have an immediately way to counteract its downsides. Your enemy is not something that will activate Emergency Exit when you don’t want to switch out or a mon that’ll put an end to your attempts to stall out 5 turns, it’s potentially any offensive mon that isn’t choice locked and even some that are. You could switch in on something passive and work from there, I guess? Except that status is still an issue, but there's really not much you can do to counteract that, so...

 

[Full_Korbe]

First post since a long time here, there is something interesting with Color Change in that it forces a lot of mind games onto the opponent. Using the awesome lists from before, the Fighting into Fairy/Psychic/Flying move (like Tomohawk or Tornadus-T) means that you are into a 50/50 gamble where either you stay in predicting another Fighting move or switch out. I know it's nothing new but Color Change makes it different especially according to whatever our typing will be and once again if the dangerous move is exploitable (for example, Aura Sphere into Psyshock). Even against something like Cinderace, if we are able to switch into Pyro Ball, that eases prediction as it becomes a riskier move for Cinderace. That's more or less what flying moose describes now that I think of it. We also have a pretty great match-up against Rain so that's something.

Offensively, it's tough though. We will be looking at a Pokemon that will rarely have STABs. That means any defensive Pokemon not weak to themselves are inherently at an advantage against Color Change when it comes to brute force. Either we will be looking for ways to circumvent this inherent weakness (set-up, coverage, hazards) or just focus on something else. Both are fine really, especially considering Color Change is not the worst against them.

 

[spoo]

On the topic of delayed moves, I think the most interesting interactions are against the abusers themselves––for example, Magearna isn't a great DD abuser because Steel-types resist both Fleur Cannon and Doom Desire, but a Color Change mon would be turned into a Fairy-type by Fleur Cannon and be forced to take DD super effectively. Conversely, something like Tomohawk or Hippowdon could take a neutral Pyro Ball from Cinderace and resist DD when it hits. The biggest example is probably Dark-type attacks making you immune to Future Sight, which is normally a stupidly good combo (see Urshifu). There are also specific type combinations that can avoid falling into traps like HJK/Sludge Bomb -> FS, though I won't get into them at this early stage.

These interactions aren't rare at all, either; I'd wager that the majority (or very close) of teams in the metagame have at least one delayed move user on them, and it's not hard to imagine a situation where CAP29 is uniquely capable of taking certain combos that would otherwise claim a guaranteed kill. However, I'm not sure how useful it'll be to thoroughly explore these interactions in the design process, because CC doesn't strictly invert which mons are good/bad delayed move abusers against it; it's more of a case by case thing, which makes it somewhat harder to design around. The in-game potential might be limited too, as even with the Tomohawk example you'll be made into a Steel-type for the next Pyro Ball/HJK to hit you for SE damage. I haven't extensively gone through the best abusers to see how they'd pair up against a Color Change mon with DD/FS in the air, so it's honestly really difficult for me to gauge how much is really changed, but these situations are still a lot of fun to think about. Color Change definitely offers a fair bit of fresh counterplay for common delayed move combos and that could easily end up as an unintended extra strength for CAP29.

 

[Birkal]

Love that the discussion has picked back up again! I don't want to trod over any of it (so feel free to reply to posts before this one), but I'm going to pose a few more questions to the general public before we move into our final discussion on what role(s) CAP29 might potentially look to fulfill due to everything we've discussed so far.

13) Three users have posted their thoughts on how the top threats in the current CAP metagame will do naturally against CAP29 (before we know anything about its typing, stats, or movepool).​

• kjnjkmjk1's list here
• quziel's list here
• shnowshner's list here

Compare and contrast them. What do you think they got right? And what, in your opinion, did they miss the mark on? Once I gather your feedback, I will compile a second draft (with the TLT) that combines these three lists combined with your feedback to give us another "flag in the ground" about where we're at in the process right now. We can utilize that information in the future to make important decisions about CAP29.​

14) In general, how should CAP29 find its viability when it comes to how well it naturally does against top threats in CAP? Is it more imperative that we lean into the matchups that we have a natural advantage against (++) and give CAP29 a means to further beat them/force them out? Or is it more important to shore up the matchups what we have a natural disadvantage against (--) by giving CAP29 the tools to not be immediately beaten/forced out by them? Put more simply: To create a viable CAP, is it more important to have a smaller, more focused group of mons we severely threaten, or is it more important to be moderately threatening to a larger, more diverse group of mons across the metagame? Why or why not? It might be worth looking at current mons that are viable/top tier in our metagame (and others) and seeing which side of this fence they fall on.​

​

I'll host these questions (and continue hosting previous ones from the past weekend) for about 24 hours more. Then we'll head into discussing roles with the information we've got, and then we're off to Typing Discussion! Keep it up; we're on the home stretch!

 

[Rabia]

I think a smaller scope of targets that CAP 29 directly threatens is best. The thing about Color Change is that your best matchups defensively are against Pokemon that 1) want to spam their STAB attacks and 2) have STAB attacks that resist themselves. Were we to introduce a very large scope of Pokemon we wish to defensively check, I think we'd be putting ourselves in a really awkward position because we wouldn't make the most of our ability. Sure, at a point you can stat check anything, but I don't find that necessary for CAP 29 to have a useful role in the metagame. I believe we can expand CAP 29's overall usability by providing it tools beyond the capability to answer powerful wallbreakers a la Rillaboom; the movepool stage should give us ample opportunity to justify putting CAP 29 on a team beyond it being capable defensively.

 

[spoo]

I mostly agree with Rabia in that checking a smaller pool of Pokemon is better, but I also believe some degree of flexibility is absolutely crucial. I don't think CAP29 should only be an answer to rillaboom/zeraora/astrolotl that also has some utility options that make it attractive in the teambuilder; a small pool of winning matchups is important to anchor us in some way, and I think that to a large degree we should double down on these matchups, but I'd still caution against putting on the horse blinders and ignoring that other Pokemon exist. Color Change is an ability with a high skill ceiling, and it would be great if we could capitalize on this fact by letting our list of winning matchups be expanded with skillful maneuvering. Frankly I'm not sure how we go about achieving this, and flexibility is pretty vague especially when we don't know our role yet, but in a perfect world I think we'd have a small pool of mons that we always threaten while still being able to force out, pressure, or switch in on a few other "net positive" pokemon if the perfect conditions align. To me, this is in line with quziel's earlier point that Color Change is worth the most when taking a SE hit and turning it NVE; those situations where we take 80%-1 into 20% probably won't happen often, and while it's not realistic for us to win these interactions consistently, it would be great if we could still reward taking measured risks by winning some of them conditionally.

 

[sneakyjeans]

To me, this is in line with quziel's earlier point that Color Change is worth the most when taking a SE hit and turning it NVE; those situations where we take 80%-1 into 20% probably won't happen often, and while it's not realistic for us to win these interactions consistently, it would be great if we could still reward taking measured risks by winning some of them conditionally.

I agree with you here. Looking back at the different tiers that have been organized, I find that the Pokemon Color Change is good against are either Choice Item Pokemon that hit like a truck, and defensive/support Pokemon that only hit when they don't have much else to do.

These are two very different archetypes, and if we bundle them into "the things we have to beat" I think we'll be trying to build a Pokemon designed to defeat two different kinds of opponents. Color Change isn't the only element of this Mon that we should be considering at this stage. I think we should look to pick out a role (i.e. defensive, wallbreaker, etc.) and if a majority of Pokemon in that role dont benefit hugely from Color Change, we design around that role, rather than a group of Pokemon based on their damaging moves.

 

[NitioWO]

I think Birkal's question 14) is an interesting one, but one whose answer depends quite a bit on the role that we end up choosing for CAP29.

A defensive pivot can get away with checking a few specific mons very well. However, it isn't going to check these mons very well if the opponent can simply work around CAP29 by immediately switching to any mon with a ghost or dragon move (unless 29 has pivoting moves too, but that's a discussion for later). Such a mon is going to need tools to at least slightly threaten mons it doesn't naturally beat.

A pure utility mon probably only needs to force out a few specific threats in order to function effectively.

Conversely, a defensive set-up mon is going to need to be able to beat a wide variety of things unless it wants to be stopped in its tracks by half the meta. An offensive, speed boosting set-up mon is similar, but needs high-powered moves rather than a good defensive typing.

I agree with spoopy that we need to remain flexible for now and have a more focused discussion when we nail down a role. Also totally agree with the idea that CC has a high skill ceiling, and we need to give 29 the tools to allow a skilled player to maneuver around an opponent. This won't be possible if 29 becomes a matchup-fish mon, where you know it's either going to be useful or completely useless from team preview.

One thing I do feel confident in is that we shouldn't undermine 29's ability to check things it naturally does well against in the process of giving it tools to cover things that it naturally doesn't do well against. I don't think CC is good enough (or that we can inflate 29's stats enough) to get away with not checking choiced elemental attackers. We need to squeeze every ounce of viability out of CC.

 

[jas61292]

I think that what Rabia said is precisely correct. Focusing on a smaller group of things that Color Change is specifically useful for is the way to go. Color Change is incredibly limited and only useful in a few select scenarios. We really should put our main focus on making sure we take advantage of those scenarios. The reason for this is simple: there are tons of great Pokemon that exist that are "moderately threatening to a larger, more diverse group of mons across the metagame." Why would you use a mon with a terrible ability to do that role? The only reason I can think of would be if we simply overpower it relative to other mons. And while that is not necessarily anti-concept, it is probably the least interesting way to approach this concept. If there is any way to take advantage of our ability, doing so should be put before anything else, and I believe that means we should put almost all our focus into severely threatening the small group of things that our ability helps us with.

Certainly we will want to be of use against some other things, but I think in the long run that will mean we should threaten things that are threatened by the same strategies we use for our core group. Determine that core group, and then work out from there. Trying to choose too many things from the start with an ability like ours will risk stretching us too thin.

 

[taziathegreat]

I actually disagree with the over all consensus going on. In my opinion color changes biggest advantage is the chaos it can create mid match leading to an Orthodox checks and counters and sweeping opportunities. We will moderately check things like rillaboom regardless of what we do just due to the nature of the matchup, those match ups almost always end with us instantly forcing that mon out. I think it’s more value in strengthening some of our poorer options and allow for some riskier plays that would have a higher payout.

 

[thundergoos]

I think we have an especially unique paradigm here, in that “creating utter chaos mid-match” like taziathegreat said, and leveraging calculated risk-reward scenarios are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I think one of the most interesting metagame aspects that CAP29 has notable interactions with is momentum, which I don’t think has really been named as a huge factor yet outside of potential pivot roles.

While it’s true that Color Change does sacrifice a great deal of control to the opponent due to the opponent essentially deciding all of your weaknesses and resistances + STAB, this also leaves a hell of a lot of room for skillful play and measured risks, as has been discussed previously. I think one of the most important lenses for us to view our CAP29 process in is that of momentum.

How do we want CAP29 to function in terms of momentum? In what circumstances does Color Change cause CAP29 to serve as a momentum sink, and in what circumstances does it allow us to seize momentum from the opponent? How do these circumstances play into the potential roles and utility and/or offensive/defensive presence of Color Change and CAP29 overall?

Momentum is definitely one of the most interesting aspects of CAP29 and I really think we should explore how we interact with it. On a broader metagame scale, this could also provide us with new insight for how to approach momentum in ways we maybe haven’t thought about before.

 

[Full_Korbe]

These lists put Magearna as negative but I'm not sure about that. Choice Specs are a wash and on set-up sets CAP29 will often switch onto the set-up move. If we manage to force Fighting move into Draining Kiss / Stored Force, this match-up depends a lot on our first typing. Assault Vest is meh though. Overall it's hard to put a rating because sure, the interaction is not that good but I feel CAP can exploit it by putting pressure and forcing Aura Sphere it situations where Magearna would rather set-up. It's a bit of the same with Tomohawk, Tornadus-T where their main offensive move (Hurricane) doesn't interact negatively with Color Change.

It should be compared with Venusaur for example where Grass into Fire sucks, Fire / Poison into Ground sucks and Ground into Grass sucks or Garchomp where both main moves are bad / neutral and coverage (Rock / Fire into EQ) is bad as well. Here, Color Change is just bad overall.

Glowking is another case where I feel these lists can be improved: as noted above, FS Color Change triggers when it hits so switching into Sludge Bomb is not too bad (you still are forced out in 2 turns) and switching into our FS keeps our first typing. I'd put it at Neutral.

Overall, I feel CAP29 should be adept at two things:
- Being effective against type spam (Rillaboom, Choiced users, Rain for examples). That is the main use of Color Change and we can use CAP29 as a blanket check for these threats.
- Putting pressure on neutral like the ones I listed (Mageara etc.) where while coverage --> main STAB hurts our momentum, a misprediction (switching into the main STAB here) is a swing in our favor. We don't really check these but we restrict their choices on them simply by existing.

 

[Birkal]

To close the loop on our latest question, it looks like the general community consensus is that we lean into the match-ups that Color Change already excels against. This is hardly a hard recommendation, but simply a consideration for future stages, in that it might be nice to make considerations that allow us to match-up even better against these mons, so that we can threaten them out or snag a KO. I need a bit of time to compile together the lists from Question 13 and the feedback they received, but we've reached the point where I can safely open up conversations about what role we think CAP29 should have. We might not come up with a definitive answer here, but I'd like to fully open the floor at this point for us to discuss the pros and cons for each role, and how it specifically pertains to Color Change.

It might be worth taking a look at the SS OU Role Compendium thread to see a list of what roles even are. Remember that we're not polljumping, so it's better to talk about these roles in a larger sense (e.g. Entry Hazards instead of each individual hazard). This conversation is going to be particularly difficult, because it needs to fit within the context of what we already know about CAP29. As a refresher, here is everything so far:

Generalizations about CAP29:
Note: These are a list of guidelines about CAP29, not rules. This is the cumulation of the intelligent community consensus from past and current threads. Our opinions as a community may change and differ on some of these specific points. We are not beholden to anything specifically on this list.

• We will treat all ability-shifting moves (e.g. Skill Swap and Entrainment) as banned. Do not debate the use of them for CAP29, nor vote in the upcoming stages with the presumption that they will be allowed. SHSP, the Movepool Leader, may re-open discussion of these moves at a later date, depending on how the rest of CAP29 is built. There is also some nuance between Skill Swap and Entrainment that favors the latter, that we also might consider in the future. But for now, they are considered detrimental to the concept and our communal creation of this CAP; please do not vote in future stages presuming these moves will be allowed.
• Our current operating view is that CAP29 is supposed to work with Color Change, as opposed to in spite of, because anything else would be us circumventing the concept. It may be necessary to work in spite of Color Change in some cases, but ultimately, it's our goal to make sure that CAP29 can optimally take advantage of the unique opportunities Color Change can provide competitively.
• We will treat CAP29 as having solely Color Change as its only ability. We won't presume that it has a flavor ability (NCA) that it can choose over Color Change to circumvent the negatives of this ability. That being said, it is still our goal to make sure that Color Change CAP29 is an appealing option in the teambuilder. We should be asking the question: "Are we working with Color Change enough that it would hypothetically be chosen over NCA?" Tadasuke, the Ability Leader, may re-open discussion of a secondary ability at a later date, depending on how the rest of CAP29 is built.
• This is a compiled list of mons (B- Tier and up) that have at least one set that Color Change has a natural advantage against:

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• This is a compiled list of mons (B- Tier and up) that have at least one set that Color Change has a neutral match-up against:

​

• This is a compiled list of mons (B- Tier and up) that have at least one set that Color Change has a natural disadvantage against:

​

• In general, we will try to lean into creating strong match-ups against the mons Color Change already has a natural advantage against. We may still look for ways to change some of our Color Change natural disadvantages into neutral or positive match-ups through future stages. But a goal of ours is to give CAP29 the correct tools to at least force out the mons that Color Change already excels against naturally.

And with that in mind, let's jump into our newest question:

15) Which role(s) could we assign CAP29 that could lead to increased viability? Which potential role(s) for CAP29 will help us work with Color Change and its advantages? Which role(s) for CAP29 could potentially give us an even better match-up against our previously-assessed neutral ( / ) and positive ( + ) match-ups?​

This question is really three parts, so go ahead and address just one question, or all three of them one at a time. This discussion will last us for roughly 72 hours, at which point we'll conclude by selecting a role or two to keep in mind as we build CAP29.

 

[quziel]

I believe that we should aim to have a mix of leveraging the ability (Color Change) to turn what would be weaknesses into strengths. That is, using Color Change's (++) matchups to shore up a weakness in terms of typing or playstyle. Think using a Color Change on a Water type to deny revenge killing from a Water-type. This ability to basically shut out 2hkos from Super-Effective damage is imo one of the most important aspects of Color Change from a defensive perspective, and leveraging the ability to deny revenge killing is imperative for us.

At the same time having a mon that has no real ability to use Color Change beyond denying revenge killing isn't focusing on concept fully imo. We need to ensure that we have a mix of matchups where we can use Color Change defensively to deny counterplay, and matchups where Color change lets us check a threat we already do ok vs.

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As for roles:

I am of the view that a bulky setup sweeper is one of the better roles for us in terms of utilizing Color Change to its utmost. Color Change denies us STAB, which is practically a power decrease after being hit, and gives us the ability to avoid being hit SE twice in a row in most situations. The former quality is one that can be mitigated by setup increasing the power of our attacks, and the latter is best utilized on a bulky mon. The mixture of bypassing Color Change's power decrease and the ability to utilize Color Change's defensive merits make me favor this particular role for CAP 29. That said, there is the noted weakness that any Color Change mon will always be vulnerable to Toxic eventually (barring Rest), which limits the efficacy in a slower bulky setup route.

Another role that we work with fairly well is as a pivot; a hypothetical situation where we bring in CAP 29 on a specific predicted attack, gain a useful defensive typing, and then force out the opponent is perhaps the ideal for the ability. The reasoning for a pivot over a straight wall is because Color Change will eventually be forced out due to being changed into a suboptimal typing.

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I think regardless our role needs to incorporate some sort of offensive presence, be it the threat of setup, at least one strong offensive attack (be it from BP or Base Stat) as if we lack offensive presence, or the ability to put the opponent on a reactionary footing, the opponent will be able to change us to their ideal typing at their leisure, and then take advantage of Color Change. Whereas if we take the initiative, where we force the opponent to respond to us now, we are less likely to be their ideal typing. For this reason I think our role needs to mix some sort of offensive presence, some way to force reactionary play, with enough bulk implied to actually use Color Change.


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Edit

"Our current operating view is that CAP29 is supposed work with Color Change, as opposed to in spite of, because anything else would be us circumventing the concept. It's our goal to make sure that CAP29 can optimally take advantage of the unique opportunities Color Change can provide competitively."

I think this is a bit of simplification and may set weird precedent. It implies there are two states being a mon that is set up to benefit enough from CC that it would prefer it over any other ability, or a pokemon that views CC as a wholly negative ability that would rather have anything else. I don't think the situation, as is, resembles that. Color Change is a negative ability, but it is a negative ability that can be turned into a positive. We should work with Color Change as much as possible, but practically, there will be parts of this concept where we have to work in spite of Color Change.

Edit 2:
Hashed this out over discord; recognized that while we aim to work with CC, it is necessary to work in spite of in some cases.

 

[Rabia]

I think Color Change has a multitude of roles that work with the ability pending the movepool stage. In particular, though, I think the most optimal route to take with it is a defensive one. As quziel noted, this could be in the form of a bulky setup sweeper such as Calm Mind Clefable or Tapu Fini; we could also have something like Toxapex, though---a really bulky utility Pokemon that does more beyond defensively answering a scope of targets.

I think we shouldn't ignore the potential for a bulky wallbreaker either. If I look back to the pinnacle of competitive Pokemon---ADV NU---a common role for Kecleon was well, that of a wallbreaker that still had good bulk and didn't need to rely on a STAB attack to be fairly annoying to answer defensively. It possessed good coverage, and as a result even when you lost your STAB on Return or whatever, you still maintained the ability to force damage onto switch-ins like Chimecho and Relicanth. Sure, you wanted to spam your STAB attack to punch the biggest of holes into the opposing team; however, you still had good influence over the game through your defensive properties and utility.

 

[Krazyguy75]

I don’t think there is any possible place for a color change ‘mon in higher tiers in an offensive role personally. It’s far too easy for opponents to come in, swap our type, and then switch to a mon that hits us for SE to force us out.

Frankly, setup sweeper seems crazy to propose. Firstly, our defensive typing sucks, averaging only 3.6 resistances or immunities, and those are selected by the opponent. Secondly, we lack stab. Thirdly, we lack an ability that does something positive. To balance those extreme downsides on something expected to stay in for long periods of time and then do offensive sweeps is crazy to me; you’d need crazy stats across the board to make this work, and it’d be far to easy to get countered. We’d also likely lack any resistance to status after the first hit. Even in the ideal situation, I can’t see why you’d want to run a risky no-stab setup sweeper over a less risky stab setup sweeper unless we make this ‘mon a monster both in terms of stats and coverage, at which point we have a different problem.

Pivot I see as a much more optimal situation. By switching in to a ‘mon with a negative matchup to us, we force them to hit us for resist or to switch out, which gives us momentum. Then when they fetch the ‘mon that would hit us for SE we are already on the way out. While one could argue this negates color change, I disagree; it gives us the positive effects against our counters while avoiding the negative effects of staying in and letting them adapt. It also lets us really make use of both our starting type and the first few hits of color change to build momentum while draining it from the enemy team. In short, pivot removes the bad half of color change while keeping the good half, which I think is totally within the bounds of our concept. It’s also one of the few roles we can fulfill without significantly bumping up stats to compensate for our weaknesses.

I think when considering any role we have one important thing to ask ourselves: How would a color change ‘mon outperform the existing ‘mons in that role? Take Toxapex; given the same bulk, it will have regenerator, toxic immunity, and 8 resistances. We have 3.6 resistances average and only 9 types resist themselves. If we go defensive, is that last bit enough to match all the advantages Tox has over us?

If we go pivot, we get one key advantage over other roles: we can re-use our first typing regularly. If we get something with several resists or immunes, we can balance the downside of the later types with the upside of the initial typing, giving us essentially a pivot that can’t stay in for a significant period of time but wants to keep coming back out as often as possible as well. If we give it an amazing enough starting typing, it might be enough to leverage its viability compared to things like Slowtwins even despite their regenerator and stab without having to resort to too strong stats/coverage.

 

[taziathegreat]

I think Bulky Pivot (either offensive or defensive) is the role that is most likely to leverage all of color change’s strengths. Being able to come in use both our initial and changed typings to create free turns, and then to leverage those free turns in as may ways as possible.

 

[flying moose]

Why not something that can choose between a bulky pivot role and some level of bulky setup (something akin to Corviknight, Tornadus-T, Landorus-T, or BW Scizor)? All of these have, at some time or another, run some form of setup (Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, or Iron Defense+Body Press), in addition to being able to provide varying degrees of utility (Defog, Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Priority) alongside pivoting. Each of these had slightly different flavors (with Corviknight leaning much more on the defensive side, Tornadus-T generally leaning toward utility, and Landorus-T and Scizor generally leaning toward wallbreaking) but all of them benefited from the opponent having to initially guess how much they were going to utilize U-turn and play accordingly. To me it seems that there are a ton of matchups where CAP29 could stay in for a turn while the opponent sets a typing combo, which seems to flash neon arrows toward a pivoting role, while a smaller number of matchups where we can sit in front of element spam seem to ask for the ability to run dedicated setup sets. I think we will have the highest chance of success if we are able to comfortably choose between pivoting and setup roles.

The examples I mentioned all depend heavily on their abilities and/or typing, so we would of course need to make up for this with a combination of good stats, a solid initial typing, and a diverse movepool.

 

[kjnjkmjk1]

I don’t think there is any possible place for a color change ‘mon in higher tiers in an offensive role personally. It’s far too easy for opponents to come in, swap our type, and then switch to a mon that hits us for SE to force us out.

Frankly, setup sweeper seems crazy to propose. Firstly, our defensive typing sucks, averaging only 3.6 resistances or immunities, and those are selected by the opponent. Secondly, we lack stab. Thirdly, we lack an ability that does something positive. To balance those extreme downsides on something expected to stay in for long periods of time and then do offensive sweeps is crazy to me; you’d need crazy stats across the board to make this work, and it’d be far to easy to get countered. We’d also likely lack any resistance to status after the first hit. Even in the ideal situation, I can’t see why you’d want to run a risky no-stab setup sweeper over a less risky stab setup sweeper unless we make this ‘mon a monster both in terms of stats and coverage, at which point we have a different problem.

Pivot I see as a much more optimal situation. By switching in to a ‘mon with a negative matchup to us, we force them to hit us for resist or to switch out, which gives us momentum. Then when they fetch the ‘mon that would hit us for SE we are already on the way out. While one could argue this negates color change, I disagree; it gives us the positive effects against our counters while avoiding the negative effects of staying in and letting them adapt. It also lets us really make use of both our starting type and the first few hits of color change to build momentum while draining it from the enemy team. In short, pivot removes the bad half of color change while keeping the good half, which I think is totally within the bounds of our concept. It’s also one of the few roles we can fulfill without significantly bumping up stats to compensate for our weaknesses.

I think when considering any role we have one important thing to ask ourselves: How would a color change ‘mon outperform the existing ‘mons in that role? Take Toxapex; given the same bulk, it will have regenerator, toxic immunity, and 8 resistances. We have 3.6 resistances average and only 9 types resist themselves. If we go defensive, is that last bit enough to match all the advantages Tox has over us?

If we go pivot, we get one key advantage over other roles: we can re-use our first typing regularly. If we get something with several resists or immunes, we can balance the downside of the later types with the upside of the initial typing, giving us essentially a pivot that can’t stay in for a significant period of time but wants to keep coming back out as often as possible as well. If we give it an amazing enough starting typing, it might be enough to leverage its viability compared to things like Slowtwins even despite their regenerator and stab without having to resort to too strong stats/coverage.

Where is 3.6 coming from? My guess is that it's the average number of resistances for single typings, which I think is a weird way of looking at it, as it really just glosses over individual matchups and how we can potentially leverage them. Also, in some cases, forcing Pokemon out of certain moves buys us time that we wouldn't have gotten otherwise. An example from an actual user of Color Change that has been discussed a few times in the Discord is Kecleon vs Wailord in ADV NU, where Wailord wants to spam Water Spout, but is forced to switch to a much weaker coverage move because Kecleon can come in, take the neutral hit, then turn Water type and make a second Water Spout less effective.
I also think you're placing way too much on the opponent's control of our type. Yes, the opponent is quite literally changing our type using their moves, but we have a degree of control as well, including slow pivoting and coming in on moves of our own type. In addition, I think this is ignoring that forcing switches buys us additional turns to do whatever we want, such as taking pages from Astrolotl's book (Knock Off and hazards), or the aforementioned bulky setup. And if you play your typings right (and we give appropriate tools during the process), you don't need sky-high stats to accomplish this.

As for pivoting, I think CAP29 could make use of U-turn/Volt Switch, but I also generally agree with flying moose it's not necessary for us to center ourselves around pivoting. We do generate free turns via Color Change, but there are certainly ways for us to use those turns ourselves, rather than immediately deferring to a teammate. In addition, if all we're doing is switching in, taking a hit, and switching out, then that doesn't really utilize Color Change much, since 1. this interaction is mostly dependent on our initial typing, not the typing we change to and 2. this could have been accomplished by a different pivot with similar resistances. It might be a safe way to make a decently viable Pokemon, but I think there are other routes that use Color Change more.

EDIT: To actually answer Birkal's question, I think I generally agree with quziel, Rabia, and others on taking a bulkier role in order to take advantage of the unique stopping opportunities we can generate through Color Change and letting us get more out of them. I think roles like tank, setup sweeper, and even potentially bulky wallbreaker could all fit well.

 

[quziel]

Frankly, setup sweeper seems crazy to propose. Firstly, our defensive typing sucks, averaging only 3.6 resistances or immunities, and those are selected by the opponent. Secondly, we lack stab. Thirdly, we lack an ability that does something positive. To balance those extreme downsides on something expected to stay in for long periods of time and then do offensive sweeps is crazy to me; you’d need crazy stats across the board to make this work, and it’d be far to easy to get countered. We’d also likely lack any resistance to status after the first hit. Even in the ideal situation, I can’t see why you’d want to run a risky no-stab setup sweeper over a less risky stab setup sweeper unless we make this ‘mon a monster both in terms of stats and coverage, at which point we have a different problem.

We don't have 3.6 resists cause we don't have every typing at the same time. We got a fair amount of control over our typing on the turn we switch in. You can very easily become a Dark type if you want vs a Hydreigon, you can become a Grass type pretty easily if you have a Zeraora in vs a Rillaboom. I also suspect the 3.6 number is calculated from teh average number of resists of every pure typing under the assumption that every single typing is equally likely. This is flawed as the distribution of attacking typings is non-uniform (aka you are more likely to be hit by Knock Off than any Normal move, not even counting other Dark-type attacks), as well as the fact that we will likely have 1-2 typings that do not trigger Color Change.

To expand beyond this short point: I believe that a pokemon centered around slow pivoting moves (the most likely interpretation of "Pivot" so far) would be ignoring the potential of Color Change to offer very engaging defensive gameplay, and as such I think a pure pivot role is probably not the best choice for us. Any Pokemon that takes one-two hits and then immediately slow pivots out is basically ignoring Color Change and only using the merits of its base typing. I think being at least partially a pivot is well, inherent in any pokemon that isn't a pure setup sweeper, so we should absolutely keep pivot-based gameplay in mind, just that we shouldn't structure the rest of this CAP around a traditional slow-pivot move user.

To defend my suggestion of a bulky setup sweeper, the most value we can possibly get out of Color Change itself is when we take a single Super-Effective hit, and then Color Change means that the next hit (whether it be the same move again, or a different move) is unable to hit us super-effectively. In order to make this happen we need enough bulk to take a single Super-Effective hit and a second either Neutrally-Effective or Not Very-Effective hit, which means that our bulk should be somewhat high. While this is difficult to guarantee, it is made far easier by boosting moves that affect our bulk. In this situation we've then turned a revenge killing attempt into a situation where we can comfortably take on the opponent. Because bulk boosting setup moves can help us get into these situations, I think the archetypical bulky booster is an excellent match for Color Change. That said, as mentioned before, we will always be open to Toxic, and a simple defensive Pokemon can achieve this same gameplay.

Edit: Thinking more:

I believe that the ingredients we need for a successful CAP 29 are the following. We need to exert enough immediate pressure to prevent the opponent from turning us into their ideal typing, whether it be through traditional offense (likely requires high atk or spA stat), or setup. If we want to use Color Change to its fullest we want to have enough bulk to take at least one SE hit, followed by a (optionally non-STAB) neutral hit. These requirements to me imply that we want to be a Tank, either of the standard variety (think Melmetal) or of the bulky setup sweeper kind (Suicune would be a good example). (Note, I am not implying that either Melmetal nor Suicune would make good CC users, both would be mediocre, Melmetal because it relies so heavily on DIB + IF, Suicune because it spends a lot of turns doing little).

My vote is for either a Bulky Setup Sweeper (for the reasons above), or, as Rabia said, a simple defensive pokemon, though I suspect a Tank build would work better, if only so that we can exert enough pressure to prevent an opponent changing our type to their desired without us being able to stop them.

 

[BitBitio]

15) Which role(s) could we assign CAP29 that could lead to increased viability? Which potential role(s) for CAP29 will help us work with Color Change and its advantages? Which role(s) for CAP29 could potentially give us an even better match-up against our previously-assessed neutral ( / ) and positive ( + ) match-ups?

Here's an interesting thought: the majority of CAP 29s supposed advantageous and neutral matchups are against wallbreakers. Naturally, this isn't true for all, as Mandibuzz or Clefable don't fit the bill, for example, but in all honesty, I think that this is something that can be taken advantage of.
I believe that making CAP 29 an offensive pivot (albeit one with solid bulk) would be the way to go here, as it allows CAP 29 to leverage its ability in the matchups that it already excels in while also giving our CAP the ability to punish these matchups further, either by going for the KO or by punishing switches with one of the many tools that it could potentially have including Entry Hazards, Pivoting Moves, or Item Control.
Another merit to Color Change, perhaps, is by giving CAP 29 an initially poor typing, either offensively or defensively, that becomes a more advantageous type by leaning into the matchups that CAP 29 is best in. This would be an interesting, pro-concept way of helping CAP 29 work with Color Change, in my opinion, and I don't want to polljump, but there are certainly numerous poor typings out there that could work well with Color Change.

 

[dex]

After talking with Quziel, I too heavily support taking the Bulky Setup Sweeper path. This is to say, a defensive booster (these moves pretty much just include CM, QD, BU, and Coil). Because the opponent has the ability to control our typing, being able to defensively boost and then recover through supereffective coverage moves from mons like Zapdos is a super-viable way to ensure CAP 29 a niche in the metagame.
I don't think we have the room for frailty in the concept. In order to fully take advantage of Color Change, CAP 29 is going to have to be able to take multiple hits to make full use of its ability.
Coincidingly, I do not think CAP 29 should be a pivot of any sort. This would only serve to diminish the role Color Change plays on CAP 29, which would see us working around CC rather than working with it. Designing a pivot does not seem like the correct path for this unique concept to fully bloom into an interesting, thoughtful mon.

 

[shnowshner]

The direction we take depends on if we want viability in spite of Color Change or as a result of Color Change. Personally the latter is more interesting to me since we'd be treading new ground. A pivot role wouldn't be completely antithetical to our Ability or the given concept, especially since getting hit once means losing potential STAB, and a slower pivot would realistically be getting hit twice if it switched in on an attack and stayed in the next turn, which would mean Color Change would have some impact on what's happening in the battle.

I do agree however that trying to maximize the potential benefit from Color Change is the way to go, and the Bulky Sweeper/Tank route is ideal as it means Color Change is going to be extremely relevant in how it plays, both positively and negatively. For the Setup Sweeper, stat boosts would mean that the loss of STAB and lack of a stable typing are dampened, already a good start. Notably, this route looks to better our matchup with a lot of the defensive Pokemon that hover around the neutral ( / ) zone, those being the likes of Blissey, Slowbro, Hippo, Clefable, and non-Haze Toxapex, among others. A lot of our success would depend pretty heavily on our vulnerability to status effects, since we'd be at the mercy of Burn and Toxic otherwise, but that's a topic for another day. Since Color Change would be detrimental if we lost our STAB while trying to break through these defensive Pokemon, having the means to thwart their ability to threaten us through tanking their hits looks optimal for ensuring 29 is able to secure a solid niche.

 

[taziathegreat]

For what it’s worth when people are mentioning a Bulky Offensive Pivot I think they are saying the same thing as the Bulky Setup Sweeper just with u-turn as the last slot. Something similar to the bulk up Cinderace or nasty plot TornadusT that just pivots until it finds the opportunity to set up and sweep.

I don’t think that’s counter intuitive to the concepts as switching into attacks and getting its color changed remains the main way it gets its free turns, the difference is the Pivot has an additional options with those free turns to set up another mon instead of just itself.

Even if we throw the kitchen sink at this mon offensively, it will always struggle to sweep, just by the nature of its ability, that’s where the toolkit to have a presences offensively without just eating an attack and setting up with its free turn, and being forced out the next turn.

 

[NitioWO]

I think people are getting way too caught up in the "work with CC not in spite of CC" idea. I think we need to take a step back and realize that CC is a shit ability. Compromises are going to have to be made somewhere; if not in its role, its typing, stats or movepool. Give it a really strong defensive initial typing, and you don't bank on CC much because you would rather be your initial typing - you could argue we'd be working around CC rather than with it here. Make it too weak, and 29 isn't switching in on anything. This is similar for stats and movepool stages.

Of course we would rather make a mon that works with CC. That's a given, and no sane person would argue with that. How idealistic are we being about it though? How high is the bar for "interacting with the ability?"

A couple people have argued that a pivot wouldn't interact with CC. I'd disagree. The Keckleon v Wailord example is perfect. Keckleon comes in, resists Water Spout, recovers or uses a utility move, then switches out when the opponent brings the next mon in. There is no way Keckleon would be able to do that without CC. How is that not a perfect example of a pivot interacting with CC?

To kjn's points: the interaction is absolutely about the typing we change to. Sure, a good typing on switch-in is important, but so is the 80%-1 to 20% damage interaction. What 29 could do that other pivots can't is switch in on neutral or SE moves, and resist them the next turn. Granted, we probably aren't switching in on CB Rillaboom Wood Hammer if we're a base Water type, but not many mons can do that. Quziel offered a nice example on Discord of thinking about a CC Metagross vs Astrolotl. We are able to come in on an SE hit, laugh off a potential second hit, threaten out the opponent, and gain free turns as a result. This is absolutely a function of the type we turn into, rather than the initial typing. Plus, I'd argue that other defensive mons can't function like this. Additionally, you could also argue that other defensive mons can use bulk up and/or wallbreak.

What will set 29 apart from other mons is this: 29 should be able to use its ability to generate those 80-20 situations to live hits. We need to give it the tools to do this, as well as to force opposing mons out, be it through threatening a powerful hit, status, knock, spikes, set-up, etc. Because of its ability to force other mons out, we will generate free turns.

Now do we want to use those free turns to steal momentum, use utility options, set up for a sweep, or use a high-powered move off a high attacking stat to punch holes in the opposing team? Each of these has its merits and demerits. But I think it's strange to argue that any one of these is "not interacting with the ability," because these situations are only created by virtue of CC.


Now here's my take on set-up:

A set-up mon is in a unique position to make even chained SE hits less threatening by boosting defenses. But it would still be suspect to the usual pitfalls of defensive set-up: revenge-killing, phazing, and toxic. Think about the defensive set-up mons that are successful in the meta. It's basically Clef and Magearna, maybe Fini? These are all immune to toxic, and have spammable stabs. Magearna has shift gear, a strong stab, a snowballing ability, insane defenses and defensive typing, and high sp. atk. I doubt we're going to give 29 all those toys unless we're making a 600 BST mon. Clef and Fini are still able to do stuff when not actively setting up.

So we'd be setting out to make a Clef or Fini that isn't immune to toxic and probably won't have STAB most of the time? We could definitely do that, but we would need to compensate heavily in the later stages in order to make it work. Being a newbie to this process, I am kind of worried that we will become pre-occupied with giving 29 enough strong stuff to function as a set-up mon, rather than focusing on CC as the concept. I also don't know if beefing up the stats, typing and movepool would count as "working in spite of CC rather than with it."

I am not currently convinced by any of the roles I have mentioned, and am not leaning in any particular direction at the moment. Also, I've only focused on BU and CM as set-up options here. There's also Cosmic Power, but I feel like that's a different can of worms.