CAP 29 - Part 6 - Defining Moves Discussion

[snake]

CAP 29 So Far

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In this stage, we will develop sets of moves that will meaningfully affect future stages of the process for this CAP. These moves will need to be addressed in the stat limits and stat submission stages in order to contextualize submitted spreads. For example, a stat submission that elects to choose stronger Defining Moves will be put under heavier scrutiny than those without them. The chosen Defining Moves should be considered essential to the CAP's concept and/or chosen role. Defining Moves does not necessarily exclude moves from consideration in the Movesets Discussion, so not all of the CAP's viable moves need to be decided in this stage. The Movepool SL SHSP will guide discussion and organize these moves into the following lists:

1. Required: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for this move, these moves, or a choice of moves.
2. Optional: Stat spreads (or other future stages) can elect to use this move, these moves, or a choice of moves.

Moves that can be chosen as Defining Moves should be in the following categories:

• Boosting Moves
• Recovery Moves
• Extraordinary Damaging Moves (moves with strong ability interactions, moves with strong secondary effects, high-Base Power moves, absolutely essential coverage moves, etc.)
• Strong Utility Moves (self-switching moves, hazard setting/removing moves, status-inflicting moves, etc.)

Controversial moves or moves' placements in the above sets can be sent to poll if the Movepool SL deems it necessary.

Please do not polljump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggest specific abilities.

 

[SHSP]

Alright everyone, lets get ready to hop into CAP's first ever Defining Moves stage.

Out of the four categories described here to focus on, the clear immediate focus must be put on Boosting moves. Boosting moves are a natural focus for us immediately: we are defined as a bulkier set up sweeper, and we're going to need to set up to do that, after all. (Remember that being a "bulky set up sweeper" does not directly mean that we have to boost bulk.) At least some bit of boosting will fall under the Required Moves section as described by this stage, so it's imperative we are well thought through about how we approach this. This category is quite broad, however, so before we jump right into debating between the individual moves, let's get a bit more direction first:

What type of set up move should we be using? By this, I mean should we be aiming to boost only an offense (as in Swords Dance or Nasty Plot), offense as well as defense (Calm Mind, Bulk Up, etc) or more unorthodox styles of boosting (such as strict defensive boosting like Cosmic Power, speed boosting like Rock Polish or even Dual Dance-esque ideas?)? If we do want to boost an offense, which one, physical or special?


I'm putting a soft limit of 48 Hours on this opening discussion- if need be this means we can have more time, but this is what I expect we'll need to start us off.

 

[Pipotchi]

i think the sentiment of being a "bulky setup sweeper" was that we want to have the color change interaction of getting tankier and changing typing in the same turn to heavily switch the matchup, we should go for an offensive boosting move that also boosts a defense which is to say bulk up, calm mind, and their variants. out of the options, special boosting is the most easy and successful here because bulk up is a complete nightmare to work in the cap meta without a STAB that threatens tomohawk. dark does not have strong special STAB moves, but poison has alright ones, and i can fully see the mon being functional without using an initial STAB as calm mind-style boosting is usually aiming for more than one to sweep- at which point, we are likely to have been hit by a switchin. dual dance i can potentially see working, but that still requires using a specially geared booster- thinking of g-moltres and magearna as examples here. but this feels shakier and not important enough to decide in this stage.

 

[Reviloja753]

What type of set up move should we be using?

I would like to mainly focus on the discussion of physical versus special attack, as I feel that before anything else we should determine our attacking bias. I do feel we should boost our offense stat regardless of what we choose, however, as unless we have some sort Power Trip or Stored Power set, boosting our offense is what will allow us to sweep. I would like to second Pip in suggesting we boost on the Special side of things, because not only does physical boosting struggle against Tomohawk, but in terms of our STABs, two uses of Dark Pulse is just 2.5 BP weaker than two uses of Knock Off assuming the foe has an item (162.5 vs 160), and Sludge Bomb is 10 BP stronger than Poison Jab. Additionally, being a Special sweeper will give us more choices in our coverage options down the line, as many types, such as Electric, Psychic, Ice, and Fairy, have much more reliable and stronger Special moves compared their Physical counterparts. I also would like to say that I also believe we should boost a defense when we boost, regardless of offense, as doing so takes advantage of Color Change, especially when we turn into a type that resists the opponent’s STAB. Doing so will also soften the blow from any combos that lead into a super-effective hit from the offense we boost against, such as if two uses of Shadow Ball from Dragapult head our way. I would like to point out that if we use something like Coil, that being a Physical attacker would be a bit more ideal than other options considering the accuracy boost opens the door up for Gunk Shot, but another big issue with being a Physical attacker is the dreaded Scald, which seems to being currently run by Galarian Slowking. It is worth mentioning for fairness that being Special means we cannot check AV Glowking as easily, however.

In short, I feel Special leaves more coverage options open for later and has better STAB. Physical could work too but under specific conditions. Regardless of offensive bias we should boost an offense and defense, like in moves such as Coil, Calm Mind, or Quiver Dance.

 

[Explosion Badger]

It is difficult to say whether I agree with the current trend of special vs physical. While I agree that Tomohawk is an issue for physical sweeping, I also feel that without STAB, our special attacking options fall significantly in power while lacking the utility that many physical moves provide us, such as Knock Off. Thanks to Sludge Bombs equal chances of poisoning to Gunk Shot, I'm leaning slightly towards special, but I still feel that Physical has its benefits.

 

[Celever]

I'd like to voice an initial support for "dual dance", with an additional caveat that I believe CAP29 should have both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot.

This seems a little out there, but the justification is that we are trying to work with Colour Change's strengths. One of the primary uses of Colour Change is being an answer to a unique set of opponents, because CAP29 won't have its defensive typing for very long. However, when building with CAP29, it will still be included on the team as a specific answer to certain Pokémon that opponents may use that its teammates cannot handle. Considering how crucial to concept adaptability and splashability is for CAP29, but I therefore believe that allowing it to boost on the physical and special sides, as well as providing a speed-boosting option to help teams that struggle more vs offense, is the most pro-concept route to take this CAP now that it's been decided that we will pursue a bulky offense route.

To apply the example, should CAP29 be used as a team's Fire-Type answer, it would want to be physically biased, hitting Heatran with a super-effective Earthquake or Moltres with a super-effective Stone Edge. If it's specially biased, there's less that it can do to Moltres, as Power Gem or Ancient Power are likely not worth running. On the other hand, should CAP29 be used as a team's Grass-Type answer, being specially biased is better so that it could fire off Ice Beam or Flamethrower. Certain typings still have fairly superior attacks on either the physical or special side, and I feel that focusing only on one side of the coin would be quite limiting and should only be done with great caution with a Pokémon who requires as much versatility as CAP29.

It's also worth remembering that powerful special attacks tend to be less accurate that powerful physical attacks. Generally, CAP29 will not be attacking with a STAB move, and without the extra power from STAB it's very likely that moves like Hydro Pump or Hurricane would be worth running instead of Surf or Air Slash. If we do choose to only make CAP29 physical OR special, the added consistency of powerful physical attacks such as Close Combat and Knock Off is important to consider.

Another key question I have is how much STAB attacks should be relevant. Something worth noting about the typing we chose is that Poison- and Dark-Type both resist themselves. This is useful for switching in and retaining both of our STABs, but if we focus too heavily on having good STABs, then we could end up in the same position as the opponent where they can sit on us and we can't hit them super-effectively back. Notably, there's no typing that is super-effective against both Poison- and Dark-Type, so we can't circumvent this with convenient coverage. For this reason, personally I feel more focus should be put on CAP29 having wide coverage than STABs, as its STAB will change over the course of the battle anyway.

Essentially, I feel that a key part of CAP29's philosophy is adaptability, and using the opponent's strengths against them. Being both a viably physical and special attacker increases and diversifies both the types of matchups in which CAP29 can put in considerable work and the types of teams that CAP29 can slot into, and this is a desirable outcome for this CAP. I also think that speed-boosting is a serious thing to consider for CAP29, as it alleviates its struggles with Dragon- and Ghost-Type opponents; it can potentially be hit by one of those attacks, have its type changed while it uses Agility, and then hit them back with a now STAB Dragon- or Ghost-Type attack itself, if it has said coverage available to it.

 

[The Crusade]

I'm a little skeptical of pursuing defensive setup. Bulk Up is out of the question for reasons covered by Pipotchi. Coil is in a similar position. However, Calm Mind also feels hard to justify. To make good use of CM, a Pokémon must have reliable recovery and/or godly defenses plus a respectable speed for self-preservation plus more resilience to status than we have now.

Consider what currently makes use of Calm Mind in CAP: Tapu Fini, Clefable, Reuniclus, and Suicune. If we make a bid for that profile, we'll have to compete with 'mons that already have famously tall defenses and/or powerful means of status negation, i.e. Misty Surge and Magic Guard. Meanwhile, CAP29 is looking at an uncertain stat budget and a status immunity that is subject to the opponent's whimsy.

I agree with prior posts saying we should be specially oriented, but I do not think we should rule out focused offense-boosting a la Nasty Plot. For clarity, I do not revile the idea of Calm Mind, but I have a hard time seeing how we can match the longevity of so many other CM-users who can enter the field with total status immunity or Suicune being Suicune. For CAP29 to stand out, it must bring something else to the table: either a STAB-independent supermove (Boomburst) or the versatility to run Nasty Plot.

 

[spoo]

I'm a little skeptical of pursuing defensive setup. Bulk Up is out of the question for reasons covered by Pipotchi. Coil is in a similar position. However, Calm Mind also feels hard to justify. To make good use of CM, a Pokémon must have reliable recovery and/or godly defenses plus a respectable speed for self-preservation plus more resilience to status than we have now.

Consider what currently makes use of CM in CAP: Tapu Fini, Clefable, Reuniclus, and Suicune. If we make a bid for that profile, we'll have to compete with 'mons that already have famously tall defenses and/or powerful means of status negation, i.e. Misty Surge and Magic Guard. Meanwhile, CAP29 is looking at an uncertain stat budget and a status immunity that is subject to the opponent's whimsy.

I agree with prior posts saying we should be specially oriented, but I do not think we should rule out focused offense-boosting a la Nasty Plot. For clarity, I do not revile the idea of Calm Mind, but I have a hard time seeing how we can match the longevity of so many other CM-users who can enter the field with total status immunity or Suicune being Suicune. For CAP29 to stand out, it must bring something else to the table: either a STAB-independent supermove (Boomburst) or the versatility to run Nasty Plot.

I plan on eventually writing up another post to better address my own thoughts but I think there are some things here that important to address; namely, the assertion that anything is out of the question right now. Frankly I have a preference for special boosting too, but bulk up and coil are certainly not disqualified. Physical boosting absolutely has its own merits, and this is literally the first ~2 hours of discussion so being this eager to completely disqualify options seems unproductive to the conversation.

On a more subjective point, I disagree with the fact that we need to have a litany of incredible, S-tier traits to be able to justify CM; reliable recovery is honestly quite likely, being particularly fast isn't a requirement at all, status is an issue but not anything that will make us unviable, and most importantly- our ability actually has an incredible ceiling for strength. Sure, most CM mons would love to have magic guard, but saying that we absolutely need an ability that strong is somewhat misleading. We have been optimizing for our ability since day 1 and every decision we make in this process will be because it furthers the potential of Color Change, and that's what we bring to the table to stand out.

With respect to nasty plot (and other purely offensive boosting moves), it's true that this helps us overcome the stab issue a bit, but I think this is honestly sacrifices far more than we'd be gaining. One of the absolute best strengths of color change is the whole "take a SE hit and recover so that your opponent can't touch you anymore" schtick, which is insanely useful in preventing yourself from being revenge killed and helps a lot to generate free setup turns. This still sorta works if we have NP+recovery but it works far better if we're boosting our bulk alongside our attack. This is, in my mind, the strongest part about our ability and I think we should double down on it by boosting our bulk instead of focusing on trying to preserve set versatility or trying too hard to compensate for our lack of stab.

At this point I'm not responding to the post above me any more and just giving some general thoughts- in general I'd really try to caution against being too pessimistic about certain setup options, and to reiterate a bit, I think every path has its merits despite my own biases leaning towards special boosting. We will be a good mon even if we don't run shell smash+strength sap+v create+boomburst, or don't have the versatility to run SD/NP/coil/quiver/shift gear with equal viability, it's really going to be okay if we have a weakness. Having a weakness (status, exploitability, whatever) is not a huge deal if we have proper team support and enough individual strengths to carve out a niche, and we have done a great job at setting this mon up for success so I don't think we need to feel pressured to go overboard/add another special strength in this stage if we want to be viable.

 

[The Crusade]

I plan on eventually writing up another post to better address my own thoughts but I think there are some things here that important to address; namely, the assertion that anything is out of the question right now. Frankly I have a preference for special boosting too, but bulk up and coil are certainly not disqualified. Physical boosting absolutely has its own merits, and this is literally the first ~2 hours of discussion so being this eager to completely disqualify options seems unproductive to the conversation.

On a more subjective point, I disagree with the fact that we need to have a litany of incredible, S-tier traits to be able to justify CM; reliable recovery is honestly quite likely, being particularly fast isn't a requirement at all, status is an issue but not anything that will make us unviable, and most importantly- our ability actually has an incredible ceiling for strength. Sure, most CM mons would love to have magic guard, but saying that we absolutely need an ability that strong is somewhat misleading. We have been optimizing for our ability since day 1 and every decision we make in this process will be because it furthers the potential of Color Change, and that's what we bring to the table to stand out.

With respect to nasty plot (and other purely offensive boosting moves), it's true that this helps us overcome the stab issue a bit, but I think this is honestly sacrifices far more than we'd be gaining. One of the absolute best strengths of color change is the whole "take a SE hit and recover so that your opponent can't touch you anymore" schtick, which is insanely useful in preventing yourself from being revenge killed and helps a lot to generate free setup turns. This still sorta works if we have NP+recovery but it works far better if we're boosting our bulk alongside our attack. This is, in my mind, the strongest part about our ability and I think we should double down on it by boosting our bulk instead of focusing on trying to preserve set versatility or trying too hard to compensate for our lack of stab.

At this point I'm not responding to the post above me any more and just giving some general thoughts- in general I'd really try to caution against being too pessimistic about certain setup options, and to reiterate a bit, I think every path has its merits despite my own biases leaning towards special boosting. We will be a good mon even if we don't run shell smash+strength sap+v create+boomburst, or don't have the versatility to run SD/NP/coil/quiver/shift gear with equal viability, it's really going to be okay if we have a weakness. Having a weakness (status, exploitability, whatever) is not a huge deal if we have proper team support and enough individual strengths to carve out a niche, and we have done a great job at setting this mon up for success so I don't think we need to feel pressured to go overboard/add another special strength in this stage if we want to be viable.

I'll grant that I used "out of the question" poorly there. The intent is not to disqualify physical setup from discussion but to communicate that I don't mean to dwell on it unless someone else makes a convincing argument. At this time, no one has attempted except in the name of sheer adaptability. However, all of that is tangential to the point of the post.

It is also facetious to describe the commonalities of CM-users as "a litany of S-tier traits." Only Clefable is above B+, and it boasts some wicked set diversity without even touching upon Calm Mind, drawing upon a highly coveted array of support options. Below that, Suicune sports 100/115/115 defenses, whereas Tapu Fini gets by with 70/115/130 and Misty Surge; further, both hit 85 base Speed. Reuniclus and Mollux are niche options that I included for completion, and even they can claim Recover and wholesale immunity to at least two forms of passive damage. That means those traits are the standard we have to work against.

I can appreciate your faith in the strengths of Color Change, and we certainly did pick a stellar type combination to maximize the positives. Nevertheless, it is a very volatile ability with drawbacks that we should not ignore. (1) It denies CAP29 the use of a different ability to mitigate passive damage. (2) It renders CAP29 susceptible to any form of passive damage after just one extra click. (3) It curtails our immediate power via STAB. If we click Calm Mind but lose our initial type on the same turn, then our Dark and Poison moves see a net boost of +0.

The opening responses to the question all argued for special bias and offense+defense setup, which practically translates to Calm Mind (or Quiver Dance). The two of us can agree that this is likely the best option for capitalizing on the defensive utility of Color Change, but I question whether that is enough to offset the three aforementioned drawbacks in light of how CAP's current CM-users actually operate. If I'm reading correctly, your rebuttal to the purely offensive option is predicated on mutual exclusivity. But can we not work with more than one "style of setup"? For instance, +1/+1 and +2? My position is that we'll likely need both for CAP29 to compete: standard CM to make the most of Color Change and then something like SubPlot to threaten more immediate power.

 

[dex]

I plan on eventually writing up another post to better address my own thoughts but I think there are some things here that important to address; namely, the assertion that anything is out of the question right now. Frankly I have a preference for special boosting too, but bulk up and coil are certainly not disqualified. Physical boosting absolutely has its own merits, and this is literally the first ~2 hours of discussion so being this eager to completely disqualify options seems unproductive to the conversation.

On a more subjective point, I disagree with the fact that we need to have a litany of incredible, S-tier traits to be able to justify CM; reliable recovery is honestly quite likely, being particularly fast isn't a requirement at all, status is an issue but not anything that will make us unviable, and most importantly- our ability actually has an incredible ceiling for strength. Sure, most CM mons would love to have magic guard, but saying that we absolutely need an ability that strong is somewhat misleading. We have been optimizing for our ability since day 1 and every decision we make in this process will be because it furthers the potential of Color Change, and that's what we bring to the table to stand out.

With respect to nasty plot (and other purely offensive boosting moves), it's true that this helps us overcome the stab issue a bit, but I think this is honestly sacrifices far more than we'd be gaining. One of the absolute best strengths of color change is the whole "take a SE hit and recover so that your opponent can't touch you anymore" schtick, which is insanely useful in preventing yourself from being revenge killed and helps a lot to generate free setup turns. This still sorta works if we have NP+recovery but it works far better if we're boosting our bulk alongside our attack. This is, in my mind, the strongest part about our ability and I think we should double down on it by boosting our bulk instead of focusing on trying to preserve set versatility or trying too hard to compensate for our lack of stab.

At this point I'm not responding to the post above me any more and just giving some general thoughts- in general I'd really try to caution against being too pessimistic about certain setup options, and to reiterate a bit, I think every path has its merits despite my own biases leaning towards special boosting. We will be a good mon even if we don't run shell smash+strength sap+v create+boomburst, or don't have the versatility to run SD/NP/coil/quiver/shift gear with equal viability, it's really going to be okay if we have a weakness. Having a weakness (status, exploitability, whatever) is not a huge deal if we have proper team support and enough individual strengths to carve out a niche, and we have done a great job at setting this mon up for success so I don't think we need to feel pressured to go overboard/add another special strength in this stage if we want to be viable.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. You may ask what CAP 29 will offer as a Calm Mind user over CAP staples like Fini, and the answer to that question is the defensive utility we have set CAP 29 up for with Color Change. I also like the idea of pumping the breaks on banning (or not discussing) physical setup. Coil can be a very strong move given the right moveset, and given that this has pretty much been poll-jumped by everyone, CAP 29 is going to have that moveset.

However, I mainly want to make this post to qualm people's fears of status. In all likelihood, CAP 29 will not be a particularly fast mon, with bulk-boosting moves like CM and Coil seeing the most discussion here, so Paralysis is not so much a concern of mine as Burn (if CAP 29 is physical) and Toxic are. We've already given CAP 29 an initial Toxic immunity, and great pivoting potential which diminishes its risk of getting statused. Additionally, and this may be poll-jumping a tad but whatever, there are options to further strengthen CAP 29 against status, through team support such as Aromatherapy Clefable, or through moveset, such as Aromatherapy and Jungle Healing (which would be incredibly strong (dare I say defining) on this CAP in my opinion and, if considered by the TLT, deserves a poll if people really do want it).

Therefore, I don't really see the value of Nasty Plot / Swords Dance given our options. It doesn't really allow CAP 29 to make full use of its ability, and the immediate offensive pressure of a +2 is not enough, in my mind, to make up for losing the defensive potential of Color Change.

 

[Tommaniacal]

I'd like to talk about physical boosting and Coil. While it is true that Special boosting has the benefit of not worrying about Burn or Tomohawk, physical has much stronger stab moves. Specifically, Coil synergizes extremely well with Power Trip and Gunk Shot. After one Coil Power Trip matches Dark Pulse, after two it's stronger than any special attack it could feasibly get. Burn and Tomohawk are annoying, but there are ways to work around them. Coil can reliably beat Tomo with stat spreads similar to previous CAP Pokémon, so I don't think it's fair to say that physical auto loses to it.

 

[Bramblestein]

There's been a lot of discussion on whether CAP should be Physically or Specially biased and I think it's important for us to determine what would be more valuable in terms of the progress it forces in a game before it tries to set up and sweep. It's not guaranteed that we will be able to find the chance to boost and sweep every game so we need to bear in mind what else CAP can bring to the table that justifies its slot. Is a strong Knock-Off removing items like heavy duty boots and leftovers helping to wear down the opposing team more valuable? Or do we want to be fishing for potential status effects with Specially-biased moves' higher chances? I know part of this is also reliant on the coverage it gets, but I think discussing it would help us pick a direction.

 

[HallowedHarlequin]

I'm still pretty new to discussion threads, but I have a few observations that I think will at least be good points to consider.

One thing I noticed about the Calm Mind users listed above is that, except for Suicune, none of them strictly rely on Calm Mind to make progress. Bulk Up users (Corviknight and Urshifu-S pre-ban come to mind) tend to also have other viable sets, and the danger of their sweeps comes partially from opponents trying to cover the other things they might do. I think 29 should provide the same conundrum for its opponents by having enough utility to not rely on boosting to make at least some sort of progress, especially since the likely loss of STAB means it faces a lower power level compared to the competition. If you see 29 come in and immediately know that all you have do is send in your Hazer, it will be pretty unviable.

As taziathegreat noted in Concept Assessment 2, one of Color Change's biggest advantages is creating chaos mid-match due to the changing of checks and counters. The opponent can control our typing, yes, but only with whatever types of direct attacks their current active pokemon happens to have, and only by directly attacking. Opponents are incentivized to hit us, even with a weak coverage move, to remove our STAB, even if they'd rather be doing something else like clearing hazards. That will often provide 1-2 turns before we're hit SE. Physical moves like Knock Off and Poison Jab/Gunk Shot allow 29 to make progress and capitalize on that chaos in smaller ways early/midgame to gear up for a possible sweep mid/lategame or aid its teammates.

Furthermore, as Tommaniacal noted, the high BP of physical moves afforded by Coil allows 29 to offset the loss of STAB (and the lower attacking stats if we go with a mixed statline.) Not being able to muscle past Tomohawk seems fine, as it was already identified as a poor matchup. Physical sets can still use the time it takes to set up Aura Sphere->Hurricane (which notably means it isn't recovering in those turns) to harass it and wear it down for teammates or possibly for itself.

The arguments in favor of Special seem solid to me, so I'll join Celever and advocate Mixed boosting options (Not mixed movesets, but a pokemon that can go either physical or special) - physical for high BP STABS with better utility, special for higher BP coverage and a more dedicated sweeping role.
Thanks for reading!

 

[shnowshner]

Our biggest priority should be that any boosting move we decide to use improves both our offensive and defensive presence. I'm not entirely opposed to SD or NP, but I don't feel they are best suited for what we're trying to accomplish. Using these boosting moves effectively generally requires having both a good (or at least average) Speed stat and/or some other means of moving before your opponent, which 90% of the time is Priority attacks. This isn't a absolute necessity, as there are some boosters that are so hard to KO naturally that they can get away with it, yet this is probably not the direction we're going to take, and we also don't have the kind of Ability that would allow this. Rhyperior is the only slow priority-less SD user I can think of in recent memory (AKA right now or pre-DLC) and the only reason it worked is because its got 115/130 Physical Defense + Solid Rock + EdgeQuake STAB alongside massive 140 Attack. Nothing is stopping us from going down a similar path, technically, but I don't see it as manageable. (This is also only an issue if we end up being quite slow, something which has not been explicitly ordained.)

Defensive boosting allows us to become increasingly hard to KO in conjunction with Color Change's ability to screw with certain Pokemon's ability to hit us effectively. I don't think Physical boosting is out of the question here, there are a lot of strong Physical attacks we can use to sweep and getting the Defense boost can be very helpful against the right Pokemon. Calm Mind stuff is definitely a lot safer since you don't have to worry about Burns/Intimidate, though it does leave us pretty helpless against a couple Special walls. Part of me feels that this value from Defensive boosts means "Double Dance" sets could be an option to pursue or at least entertain; perhaps we choose an offensive Stat we can boost alongside a Defensive stat, and use another move to further boost our other Defense, or maybe Speed if that's an avenue we're comfortable with. I'm a big fan of Pokemon that can shore up defenses on either end so its flexible in which Pokemon it can sit in-front of to start setting up for a sweep (think CM Acid Armor Reuniclus). Such flexibility may end up infeasible due to the restraints imposed on 29 already, but I feel that there isn't much harm in having the option.

In terms of what kind of boosting moves we are looking for, I'd say anything that boosts our Defenses should be on the table. Having multiple different boosting moves is something I'm interested as well; I feel that if we're only Calm Mind or Bulk Up then we're not really exploring the ways we can succeed as a bulky setup sweeper.

 

[quziel]

I have played a lot of games using Color Change "hacked" onto non-color change mons. I have observed the following.

Coil is a good option because it improves the reliability of a likely stab in Gunk Shot, allows you to easily prevent revenge killing by pokemon such as Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian, and means that after one use your stabs are back up to regular power. It sucks facing Tomohawk, but Tomohawk is incredibly susceptible to chip damage. The boost to both bulk and power means that we actualize Color Change very effectively, both removing its downside (a +1 attack means that we do not "lose" stab), and engage its upsides (its very hard to 2hko a mon if you cannot hit it twice SE at +1 defense).

Calm Mind was another move I tested, and it felt very functional. Again, I think the best route here is to really go all in on the kinda playstyle of "Spam secondary effect moves until their counter is status'd and then go for a sweep", and Calm Mind fits very well there. It also engages the "boost to bulk so you are difficult to KO" + "boost to power to get around no-STAB. This is an option I support.

Pure offense boosting moves feel somewhat less satisfying, but they also work. Quiver Dance is probably the highest power option, but felt very satisfying for much of the same reasons as the above, making it very difficult to revenge kill.

I would like to argue for [Coil, Calm Mind, Quiver Dance, Bulk Up] being placed in a "choose one" category, that is, that we require each spread submitted to account for at least one, but not necessarily all of these options. I believe mixed sets are a distraction at best, but that we should not commit to being purely physical nor purely special at this point; we should leave the option open at the current time.

Double Dance sets feel like a bit of a red herring, as this mon will already struggle with moveslots, so mandating a double dance set (see Reun) on a mon that won't have reliable STAB feels unnecessary.

Trying to engage both sides at once feels very unnecessary; at best its trying to target blissey, a mon that, while it exists, isn't hyper common, and going "mixed" (aka having a viable physical and special set) still won't excel vs Blissey + Physical Wall, which is every single team Blissey is on. Imo just leave the choice of which bias we want to spread creators.

Edit:

One of the main benefits of Physical, which even leads me to think of it as a good option, is the fact that Bulk Up, Coil, etc. are amazing at stopping common revenge killers from well, revenge killing you. Special does still help this, but not nearly as well when the main ones are stuff like Zeraora and Landorus-Therian (it targets Pult, which is valid cause pult vs a +1 or +2 mon is death for pult even if it can hit you SE on the second turn). I do not think mixed is worth it, as while it is a benefit over a specialized mon, the benefit here is minimal, and like, I don't think the increased complexity it would lead to in later stages is worth the help it gives.

 

[sneakyjeans]

Are moves like Clangorous Soul or Geomancy up for conversation? Or are signature moves considered off limits? I think we could make a case for these but I'm unclear if they're available for discussion.

I agree with The Crusade that we need more potent boosting options to compete with other Calm Mind users. Unless we go fully defensive and work around things like Cosmic Power, the fact is that the other CM boosters have more going for them. I think boosting should go for full offence like Nasty Plot, and we rely on natural bulk and neutral-resisted moves to allow us to set-up, as once we lose STAB we're still hitting lower than alternatives.

 

[HallowedHarlequin]

I agree with The Crusade that we need more potent boosting options to compete with other Calm Mind users. Unless we go fully defensive and work around things like Cosmic Power, the fact is that the other CM boosters have more going for them. I think boosting should go for full offence like Nasty Plot, and we rely on natural bulk and neutral-resisted moves to allow us to set-up, as once we lose STAB we're still hitting lower than alternatives.

I think Quiver Dance would give it enough of a niche beside the other Calm Mind users as a "fast" CM user. Currently, QD is only learned by Bugs and Grasses, most of which are unviable, so there's little competition. Being able to boost and then either recover, boost again, or attack all between the opponent's moves, and subsequently outspeed things, is a huge advantage that Suicune & Co. lack. (Clefable can sort of replicate it with Thunder Wave.)

My understanding for exclusive moves and abilities, particularly ones that have deep thematic ties to their mons, is that they're generally avoided unless the concept calls for them specifically or we're unable to fulfill the concept with 'regular' moves. A more experienced CAP person can probably provide a better explanation or link to a policy somewhere.

 

[CadmusRhodium]

Are moves like Clangorous Soul or Geomancy up for conversation? Or are signature moves considered off limits? I think we could make a case for these but I'm unclear if they're available for discussion.

I agree with The Crusade that we need more potent boosting options to compete with other Calm Mind users. Unless we go fully defensive and work around things like Cosmic Power, the fact is that the other CM boosters have more going for them. I think boosting should go for full offence like Nasty Plot, and we rely on natural bulk and neutral-resisted moves to allow us to set-up, as once we lose STAB we're still hitting lower than alternatives.

Those moves are technically options, but at least I personally feel like it'd center the project on trying to figure out how to make 29 function as a Geomancy or whatever user rather than a Color Change mon. Signature moves don't really pop up much in CAP unless the mon is specifically designed around them. And last time a CAP was made to use a signature move... well, we all know how that turned out...

 

[Wulfanator]

I share similar thoughts to that of Quziel. I think we are better off focusing on moves that build our offensive potential while reinforcing our defensive capabilities. Non-signature, set-up moves like Coil, Calm Mind, Quiver Dance, and Bulk Up need to be considered with stat submissions (minimally one) if we choose to avoid selecting a stat bias within this stage.

I do think it would benefit us to narrow our selection down to a singular set-up move. I think knowing which offensive stat we will lean towards, physical or special, as well knowing if we can boost our speed would be desirable information to have as we begin discussing checks and counters to CAP29. The goal of this step should be what is THE move we want to optimize and not what are all the options we are willing to entertain. This is especially important for a mon that is already struggling for moveslots and lacks reliable STAB. We just can't afford unnecessary distractions.

 

[Amamama]

I do think it would benefit us to narrow our selection down to a singular set-up move. I think knowing which offensive stat we will lean towards, physical or special, as well knowing if we can boost our speed would be desirable information to have as we begin discussing checks and counters to CAP29. The goal of this step should be what is THE move we want to optimize and not what are all the options we are willing to entertain. This is especially important for a mon that is already struggling for moveslots and lacks reliable STAB. We just can't afford unnecessary distractions.

I don’t think locking in our bias already is beneficial.
While I believe, that we eventually should pick one bias for boosting, I also think, that having an open discussion during threats and stats is going to bring more insight, than fixing things now and Put less strain on the threat list and subsequently stats.
Usually, threats has come after typing, before moves or stats and we always managed to select the few mons that our chosen typing was naturally good against or against which it would struggle.
i think this is the way to go here as well.
Locking in mons, that should be able to deal with us in any case, as well as mons, that we should beat regardless of what boosting move we chose, should give us more direction and ultimately, show us, which stat biases suit us best.
Forcing us to lock into one move now, just for us to later realize, that it has undesired interactions with our threat list feels similar to what happend with Smokomodo, where we locked in a stat spread, that ultimately forced us to withhold concept relevant moves, to keep the threat list intact.

Just knowing, that at least one of the presented options of boosting needs to be factored into stat submissions, is enough.
I do think, that we could narrow it down, by limiting options, such as saying that 29 will get for example: no speed boosting, only moves that strictly boost offense or moves that at least boost one defense.

At this point I think all options are fine.

 

[taziathegreat]

While we’re talking about Clangorous Soul I wanna bring up NO RETREAT as another option an Omni Boost is definitely something that should seriously be considered, as a set up sweeper with no stab or established resist will need all the help it can get to survive and push through the truly elite threats.

Beyond boosting I feel like Recovery Options is something that will be vital to 29’s long term success. 29 is going to take a lot of hits, that’s almost unavoidable now that we decided to go down the bulky route.

 

[Krazyguy75]

While we’re talking about Clangorous Soul I wanna bring up NO RETREAT as another option an Omni Boost is definitely something that should seriously be considered, as a set up sweeper with no stab or established resist will need all the help it can get to survive and push through the truly elite threats.

Beyond boosting I feel like Recovery Options is something that will be vital to 29’s long term success. 29 is going to take a lot of hits, that’s almost unavoidable now that we decided to go down the bulky route.

No retreat feels like a terrible option. We’d be devoting a moveslot to a single use move; No Retreat can’t be used twice and you can’t switch out after using it without a pivot move. And a single stage up offensively is pretty much identical to how STAB normally functions.

Not to mention it’s just detrimental to our role on the whole. A setup sweeper doesn’t want to stay in with a single boost; it wants to test the waters, bait out and disable its counters and revenge killers, and then finally spend a few turns getting buffed enough to sweep. This move prevents us from doing almost all of those.

 

[Wulfanator]

Usually, threats has come after typing, before moves or stats and we always managed to select the few mons that our chosen typing was naturally good against or against which it would struggle.
i think this is the way to go here as well.
Locking in mons, that should be able to deal with us in any case, as well as mons, that we should beat regardless of what boosting move we chose, should give us more direction and ultimately, show us, which stat biases suit us best.

Let me start by saying the checks and counters list has a tendency to unnecessarily railroad the final stages of CAP. My understanding of the stage is that it is intended to be more of a suggestion that is subject to change as the project continues development. However, it seems many users often feel obligated to adhere to it to the nth degree. By the time of stats and moveset, the list is so ingrained into the project that it is difficult to push these users away from the artificial restrictions it imposes.

My stance is not targeted at Pokémon that should beat us in any given circumstance. If that were all we focused on in C&C, I do not think there would be much of a reason to lock in stat bias. The problem is we do not just look at these matchups. The elements of the C&C I am addressing is the fringe options that tend to be selected along side them. I think back to Astrolotl's process where rock-type Pokémon like Stratagem and Terrakion were listed as checks. At the time, these Pokémon were not seeing active use and served only as additional red tape for the final steps of that project. This is not a problem unique to one particular CAP either.

When locking in our boosting move, and subsequently our bias, we are aiming to eliminate the fringe options that could otherwise impede our desired goals. Not to mention, I think our ability also stands to make for a very turbulent C&C list if every boosting option is still available.

Forcing us to lock into one move now, just for us to later realize, that it has undesired interactions with our threat list feels similar to what happend with Smokomodo, where we locked in a stat spread, that ultimately forced us to withhold concept relevant moves, to keep the threat list intact.

How can a move have an undesired interaction with a list that does not exist and would be designed with the move in mind? Not to mention, the entire purpose of this step is to prevent the exact issues we faced with Smokomodo. For example, if we had wanted flame charge, we would have wanted to design a C&C list that omitted the relevant scarfers that stopped being checks and pressures after a single speed boost. If these are the type of Pokémon that cause these "undesired interactions" should we really be listing them at all?

 

[taziathegreat]

No retreat feels like a terrible option. We’d be devoting a moveslot to a single use move; No Retreat can’t be used twice and you can’t switch out after using it without a pivot move. And a single stage up offensively is pretty much identical to how STAB normally functions.

Not to mention it’s just detrimental to our role on the whole. A setup sweeper doesn’t want to stay in with a single boost; it wants to test the waters, bait out and disable its counters and revenge killers, and then finally spend a few turns getting buffed enough to sweep. This move prevents us from doing almost all of those.

I kinda thought it was implied but No retreat would of been mainly on some variation of a double dance set, for the very reasons you said. 29 would likely get great use out of the entire Omni boost, clangorous soul seems a bit strong on a mon that’s likely to have viable recovery options.

The Conversation about PIVOTING moves needs to be had as well. Just having uturn or any of the others on this pushes this mon into a more natural bulky pivot set and on one hand I'm opposed to something so counter role, but on the other hand as long as it’s using color change does the method matter really matter?

 

[Jewvia]

I do not have a significant post to make here. Just that I believe we need to be boosting both offenses and defenses. Whether this means going the special route with moves like Calm Mind or Quiver Dance, or a physical route with Bulk Up or Coil is not something I can answer. Physical vs Special is a comparison that we need to make based on two things though, assuming we do go with a boosting move that bolsters both offenses and defenses.

1 - Offenses. Based on who we want to hit, do we want to focus on a special or a physical move pool? The move we choose dictates that, and steers the direction we are to take.

2 - Defenses. Are there any particular threats we can partially safely switch in, but we need to increase our defenses to make it safer? For instance, would we benefit from using Calm Mind to protect against a Hurricane? Or would we rather defend against that second Earthquake with a Bulk Up?

Moves like No Retreat or Clangorous Soul feel like the wrong direction. While they do boost every stat at a cost, we already have a steep cost in Color Change. Locking us in or forcing us to take another third of damage just to boost are not approaches we want to be making with our predominantly neutral typing.