CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 7 - Second Flavor Ability Discussion

[samtheman]

I did not intend to use "how confusing it is" in place of any argument; I was legitimately confused. The only thing I was "arguing" for is clarification. Even if CAP does in fact end with the playtest, much of the past discussion about abilities for CAP3 have referenced Krillowatt's Magic Guard, not only during its playtesting but also in the CAP metagame.

Again, my only argument is for clarification on the release of any Unreleased ability, because the release of Drought will affect the CAP metagame, which is metagame that people play. The timing and process for releasing a Dream World ability is something that we should decide on now, while creating this CAP, imo.

 

[Deck Knight]

I did not intend to use "how confusing it is" in place of any argument; I was legitimately confused. The only thing I was "arguing" for is clarification. Even if CAP does in fact end with the playtest, much of the past discussion about abilities for CAP3 have referenced Krillowatt's Magic Guard, not only during its playtesting but also in the CAP metagame.

Again, my only argument is for clarification on the release of any Unreleased ability, because the release of Drought will affect the CAP metagame, which is metagame that people play. The timing and process for releasing a Dream World ability is something that we should decide on now, while creating this CAP, imo.

Must I really add the superfluous sentences so that it reads "Drought Unreleased for the playtest, and immediately released in the general CAP metagame once the ladder is rebooted, because we're programming it in but it won't be available during the playtest just like unreleased DW abilities on Pokemon we already know are programmed for them."

Because that's exactly what is meant, I just figured that since the playtest was by definition a closed and finite period of time, "unreleased during the playtest" was sufficiently clear. There is no debate at all, because CAPs projects are bounded inbetween Topic Leader Selection and Playtest.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

End of the day, there is nothing flavorful about unreleased drought . . . at all. In fact, given the Dry Skin nature of our pokemon, Drought is, if anything, the antithesis of flavour. All it is is sour grapes.

 

[jas61292]

Must I really add the superfluous sentences so that it reads "Drought Unreleased for the playtest, and immediately released in the general CAP metagame once the ladder is rebooted, because we're programming it in but it won't be available during the playtest just like unreleased DW abilities on Pokemon we already know are programmed for them."

So basically, we will not allow it for the playtest, but as soon as its over we will disregard the decisions of the community? You know what that is? That is a big "fuck you" to the entire CAP community. It doesn't matter when the CAP is over. It matters that we would be deliberately changing the CAP to go against the community's choices. Not just changing things, but doing the exact opposite of what the community voted on.

If any ability is voted in as DW only it can never be released or else we are just disregarding everything the community has done.

 

[samtheman]

Deck, thanks for clarifying.

It will be interesting to see how people vote, knowing that Unreleased Drought will mean another viable sun-starter in the CAP metagame. Let's see if Drought will make it through the third time.

If it seems like I'm giving you a hard time, it's only because I think the implications of Unrelased Drought should be made clear to those who aren't as familiar with the intricacies of the CAP process as you are. For the record, I think that so far, you've been prudent, logical, and upfront throughout this process.

 

[Delta Nite]

I second jas. So, even after 2 polls and heated discussion in wich the community decided that we DON'T want CAP 3 to be a weather starter, you guys keep trying to find a way to make Drought usable in CAP metagame. That is a shame.

I'm very dissatisfied with how discussions go in here. Just like someone said in that sticky 'Open Thread', it seems that some members have more saying than others... And reasoning to some Abilities being slated or not don't seem to be quite clear. For example, I'd be glad if Deck could give a elucidating post about why Status immunity Abitilities aren't allowed, despite being inferior to Dry Skin and giving Mollux small niche.

I don't want anyone, mostly Drought supporters, to feel offended. I just think we should make it clear. Voting Drought as unreleased, will make it available in CAP metagame, after playtest. If it is slated, I'd like that information to be splicit in the poll.

 

[Banryu]

I just really want to see Sniper on this guy, what with him being a cone snail and all. It's one of the better flavor abilities and it's somewhat useful (more so than Illuminate anyway).

I don't get Suction Cups or Flame Body, even as far as flavor goes. It's not like Mollux even has any flames on it... Also, look at all the Pokémon that have Suction Cups. Suction Cups is not just about sticking to a surface; plenty of Pokémon do that and don't have Suction Cups. Octillery has limbs that are designed explicitly to suction onto a target, and Cradily is designed to anchor onto the seafloor. Mollux is neither of these and, as it so happens, neither are any of the other snail Pokémon. Tangled Feet is equally stupid imo. Everything is either a bird or Spinda, a Pokémon that is ALL ABOUT being dizzy.

Also agree with this as far as the flavor side of the argument goes. Some of the suggestions I don't really understand on a flavor basis, it's almost as if some people are trying to sneak competitive abilities in there.

 

[Wyverii]

Please argue for abilities on a non-competitive basis thank you very much.

Also, I'd like to say I'm am utterly ashamed to be a moderator of cap at the moment. This whole ability debate has been the most venomous, horrific, drama induced slugfest I've ever seen within this forum. If I see any more insulting insinuations from any person, regardless of stance, I will be fully moderating the posts.

Make your stance without resulting to ad hominums or assumptions and leave it at that.

 

[Cresselia92]

If I have insulted somebody I'm really sorry! I have nothing against Anti-weather members. I simply want to understand, that's all! And if I had an aggressive tone please warn me. I only gave my opinion, let the discussion and time decide the outcome.
This isn't a war! It's supposed to be fun! Let not take it as a matter of life and death, please! :(

Currently supporting:

Drought (either way is fine for me): can make the outside shine. Ok, that doesn't make much sense…
Water variant of Heatproof: if it live underwater it must have some kind of water resistance
Weak Armor: it has a shell that seems very fragile
Color Change: lava lamps can change colors
Sturdy: it can endure a hit by hiding in the shell, like Shuckle and Dwebble
Shell Armor: shell says everything
Flame Body: burning/corrosive liquid can burn
Suction Cups: it can anchor on the ground to prevent the marine currents to carry it away
Shed Skin: it can replace the shell with another one. No idea how…
Aftermath: if the shell break… BANG, corrosive acid/lava everywhere!

Since I have been very bad girl this will be my last post. Bye bye! Have fun for me!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If I have insulted somebody I'm really sorry! I have nothing against Anti-weather members. I simply want to understand, that's all! And if I had an aggressive tone please warn me. I only gave my opinion, let the discussion and time decide the outcome.
This isn't a war! It's supposed to be fun! Let not take it as a matter of life and death, please! :(

It's basically because of this:
based on the design of our CAP, Drought really doesn't make ANY stylistic sense. Competitively, it was considered "too good" and it was voted out TWICE because of it.

The main thought now is that you can't just keep re-introducing an ability that keeps losing just because you didn't want it to lose and you're trying to find a work-around to get it in.

If you wish to "unlock it" down the road, then that's basically what you are doing. And if you wish to keep it permenantly "unreleased" and use it only for flavour, then you really need to justify how there is any flavour to drought with our CAP's design, a lava-lamp, slimy-bodied, cone snail. With a slimy body, I'd honestly say it doesn't get much LESS flavourful than drought, and I think that's how anyone who doesn't support drought feels right now, that the people who are dissapointed that it was outvoted not once but twice are trying to weasle it in one last time, which makes no sense when the dream world ability is supposed to be a an ability which gives flavour either in form or function, but which is not realistically a viable alternative to Dry Skin.

I don't think anyone has really done a good job explaining WHY drought makes any sense on this pokemon from a flavour perspective, merely that, if it's unreleased, one could find a loophole to consider it "non-competitive" . . . at least innitially....


That having been said, I currently support
Limber/Insomnia - It may or may not not make sense with the CAP's artwork, but it certainly gives the cap a nice, status immune flavour, albeit a bit of a subcompetitive ability choice
Tangled Feet - I dare you to look at its feet and tell me that they aren't tangled!
Weak Armour - It's shell is made out of glass!
Sniper - Have you SEEN a cone snail in action?
Liquid Oooze - It appears that that's what its shell is filled with, and it's a poison type, so that makes sense . . . besides it's typing makes it good against most things that would try to leech its health anyway
Magma Armour - I suppose its lava lamp could be filled with actual lava!

 

[wdistance]

Drought makes NO SENSE with this Pokemon. It likes its skin dry. Drought is the opposite of that.

 

[Meganium Sulfate]

If we really want to remember the Drought discussions so much, can't we just write that into The Smog? Please, let's just end this mess with No Tertiary Ability.

 

[Deck Knight]

To be clear, I'm not going to fiat unreleased Drought, It will only be a post-playtest ability IF it gets voted in. I just want to be clear about the intent, I'm not endorsing the logic of it necessarily, just that I don't think its entirely unreasonable, and that I'm not going to bind all future CAP TLs and the CAP Metagame by making a release imposition beyond the confines of this particular CAP. Ad far as flavor, Drought is currently possessed by a gigantic Carnotaurus Expy and a Nine-tailed Fox. It's clearly not based on any defining traits other than certain legends and lore, and Mollux qualifies as a kind of lore the way it's been going.

In general I'm thinking of keeping the power level up or around Illuminate's for anything that isn't specialized. Klutz is helpful against Trick but basically useless for anything else, Poison Touch is simply not useful for the kind of moves Mollux is going to employ and can actually be detrimental if Burn or Paralysis would be better statuses to inflict, combinations with Venoshock or no. Stall is obviously detrimental.

So:

No Tertiary Ability
Unreleased Drought (Playtest Only)
Klutz
Poison Touch
Stall

 

[Eszett]

Seriously? I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Stench yet. Sure, it's no longer a useless ability, but I cannot imagine that its lava lamp compounds smell good, not to mention the rest of its slimy body. Given that its speed isn't exactly stellar and the flinch rate is only 10%, I do not see this coming into play much.

He who is without sin, cast the first stone against this idea.

 

[canno]

I don't see a point to Unreleased Drought other than we can put it in because we can and we were discussing about it in the early stages of the CaP. Yeah, I guess you could make it work (using the art work), but in that case, Moody is just a viable, since art work could be made (not needed, since being moody is an emotion) and it's banned, so it doesn't impact it at all.

Sticky Hold could also be a good one, seeing what it's based off.

 

[Silverythoughts]

Sniper I think is a good idea - links especially well with being based on a cone snail and all. Its competitive use is more than the other suggestions but as long as Mollux doesn't have any high crit moves, I think it shouldn't matter?

 

[Ooraloo]

The whole point of a flavor ability is to give Mollux FLAVOR. Even if we kept Drought unreleased forever, it really doesn't add any flavor. Flavor abilities are supposed to describe a certain aspect of the cap. Illuminate describes the lamp, poison touch describes the toxic fluids in the lamp, and stall describes the slowness of the cap. What does Drought describe? Nothing.

Drought is not a flavor ability. It is 100% competitive in all aspects. We really should not be considering it during the flavor stage.

I agree with jas 100%.
Twice we've voted against Drought. Why bring it up again?

 

[alkinesthetase]

I'm seeing no tertiary as the easiest option here, but anything that has clearly no competitive relevance whatsoever could fit the bill. (Imo suction cups is relevant since it does prevent a major role in the metagame, phazing. for this reason I was in favor of it, but I do not deny that it's nowhere near as irrelevant as illuminate, and the community clearly demonstrated a preference for TOTALLY irrelevant abilities over quasi-relevant ones when it voted in illuminate. I can roll with that.)

I was in favor of drought as secondary ability and I would be in favor of it now, except that it sounds like after the playtest drought will be released... which does not seem to agree with the community's stand on the issue. While I favored drought in the secondary ability poll, the numbers clearly did not agree with me and the other drought supporters (you can argue that the majority was narrow, but that's irrelevant because it was still a majority. CAP process rules don't say anything about the majority having to be a certain percentage. More people were against drought than for it, period). In other words, if drought is never actually playable at any point in mollux's life, I don't see any reason to deny it a spot as the DW ability for this mon - what difference does it make? I agree with R_D that it imparts some of the history of mollux's development into the mon and that strikes me as kind of cool, although it also does kind of mean that a third ability is being added "just because we can". I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Some people have argued that drought contributes nothing to the flavor of mollux. I acknowledge that this is a subjective argument, but here's my take on it. If the justifying factor for the choice of tertiary ability is flavor, then isn't mollux's CAP process history just as much a flavor factor as its appearance or body? People have argued that abilities like suction cups or sticky hold suit mollux because the flavor of mollux's art design suits those abilities well. Fair enough and I agree. Those abilities do indeed suit mollux's design - to varying and arguable extents, but it's good enough for me. But in that case, what makes drought a less significant flavor choice? What makes it less flavorful? Mollux is a CAP pokemon and in my opinion (this is the subjective part) the process by which it was formed is just as much a part of it as any sprite/art design. Choosing drought as the tertiary ability pays homage to that history, just as any other design-based choice would be playing towards particular aspects of mollux's appearance and biology/physiology. Meanwhile it has no impact on Mollux's competitive relevance so it will neither hurt nor harm the mon. I don't see a problem with it.

But! If it does eventually see a release that allows it to be played (ie after the playtest), then dw drought drastically changes the mon - this, I don't think anybody denies, since drought is a very relevant ability - and it doesn't look like the community has majority support for another competitive ability. This is something we've already established from the past votes. If that is the case, then I cannot support drought again. Releasing drought after the playtest ends would have a groundbreaking effect on any established roles built around dry skin. Whether or not drought turns out to be superior (we've seen arguments either way but it's ultimately impossible to tell without playing it), it would greatly alter cap3 if it was eventually able to get drought. If the DW will eventually be released, then slating drought effectively gives it yet another shot in the polls, which directly disregards the results of the secondary poll (where no competitive ability won over drought).

My first choice would be DW drought that is never released (ie NEVER EVER). Such an ability would never be competitively relevant, regardless of how powerful it was, because it would never be released for play. Almost anything would make a good secondary preference for me (leaning towards suction cups because the idea appealed to me before and it still does so now, but if it's never going to be released then it's ultimately all the same, no?). But if the DW ability will eventually be released, then DW drought would eventually let mollux have drought. I would not support drought again and I don't think it should be slated in that case. I would definitely put my support behind something else - again probably either no tertiary or suction cups.

tl;dr: (the bold is mine)

I am in full favor of unreleased Drought. I honestly don't care if it eventually gets released or not into the CAP metagame. Actually, my preference would be that it would never be released.

edit: whoops. Sorry bout my fixation on the future release of drought, it struck me as a significant point and I clearly did not pay enough attention to this part of deck knight's most recent post:

To be clear, I'm not going to fiat unreleased Drought, It will only be a post-playtest ability IF it gets voted in.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I want to clarify one thing as a final post on the matter.

Whether or not a DW Drought gets released after the playtest is IRRELEVANT. It is not our place to make that decision; releasing it later would be exactly like revising the CAP for the CAP metagame, which is something that the PRC decides on. It would have no effect on CAP 3's playtest, and it will not mystically get released after the playtest without a PRC discussion.

I want to emphasize that any further discussion on whether Drought gets released after CAP 3's playtest is off topic and essentially policy-jumping. Therefore, it is a warnable offense, and while I am no longer a CAP mod, trust you in me that the CAP mods will lash out at you if you push the subject.

The suggestion of DW Unreleased Drought is totally legitimate, and quite frankly, if you're on the fence about it because you're afraid it might ever get released, you shouldn't be worried. If you don't want it to be released, then after CAP 3 comes out and the PRC talks about revisions, just oppose them! It's that simple. If we never revise CAP 3 for the CAP metagame, then Drought would never be released. It's really quite simple, and isn't something anyone should be worrying about. You should merely support Drought if you like it or don't support it if you don't.

 

[Bughouse]

Yes, Dusk, I agree. But I also agree with the mentality to fight it now rather than later. If you oppose Drought the simplest thing is to not allow Drought as a DW ability in the first place.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about that viewpoint.

 

[Yarnus of Bethany]

The problem with letting the Prc choose it later is that most of the people supporting it are on committees while anti-drought people tend to be lower class. So leaving it up to any committee pretty much garuntees it will be released, at least at some point.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

The PRC is intelligent and trustworthy enough to put the best interests of CAP at the forefront of their decision-making and not let personal vendettas or ulterior motives guide their decisions. If you can't believe that, you shouldn't even be participating in CAP.

 

[Dummy007]

I haven't followed this CAP much, but I would like to suggest Weak Armor as a flavor ability. (I haven't seen it brought up; sorry if I stole this from anyone!) Its shell (armor) is a LAVA LAMP (which is made of glass/plastic/something brittle), so it would make sense for it to be easily broken. Plus, from a competitive standpoint, it's not like this thing is going to be sweeping after a boost. Aside from that, I would be okay with Limber, Sniper, or Poison Touch. Not a big fan of Drought, but I wouldn't be hugely angry/disappointed if it got chosen.

 

[trulyElse]

The problem with letting the Prc choose it later is that most of the people supporting it are on committees while anti-drought people tend to be lower class. So leaving it up to any committee pretty much garuntees it will be released, at least at some point.

To be fair, that's the people supporting it be included at all, not those who want it on released. That said, I still don't want to take any chance, and I still don't buy into the flavour.

In most modern reasoning Burden of proof lies with the accuser. I this case, those wanting the ability. I would like to hear a specific reason as to why Mollux would benefit from the flavour of Drought. I have not yet.

e: Also, Dummy007: It has been suggested, however I hardly think having an idea independantly of someone else qualifies as stealing.

 

[Flarephoenix332]

I, Flarephoenix, pledge my loving support to the following:

No Tertiary Ability
Unreleased Drought (Playtest Only)
Klutz
Stall

Basically, all on Deck's slate but Poison Touch. Poison Touch feels like bad flavour to me as I think all of the poison of Mollux is held in the transparent shell (and thus wouldn't coat the appendages), but I will happily change my tune if Mos disagrees.

The rest of the abilities (NTA not included) are what I like to call "Troll Abilities". Unreleased Dream World ability? Not usable in what counts, especially since Drought is REALLY good. Klutz and Stall make the pokemon worse, which is a huge bonus. Illuminate at least doesn't do anything. Klutz makes Choice or LO sets unusable and Stall is just "lol".

I would also support Unreleased Liquid Ooze, because I can see the poison made by Mollux being very toxic to anyone stupid enough to take a sip. Liquid Ooze doesn't get a lot of coverage, so it's hard for me to take a stab at what GF's idea of flavor is for it, but I think it would fit very nicely.