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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 7 - Second Flavor Ability Discussion
- Thread starter capefeather
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If you're gonna go that route, why the hell does it have Dry Skin in the first place? Its a snail, when's the last time you came across a snail that wasn't wet and sticky. Granted Pokemon rarely makes sense like that, but you could say that for both abilities.
I fail to see why people are insisting on abilities that are completely 100% competitively useless. The way I understood it was "an ability that is marginally competitively useful but insignificant next to Dry Skin" Suction Cups is nice but Baton Pass teams are hardly taking the metagame by storm.
It has Dry Skin because that's the ability that won the vote. The vote that happened before the art poll that decided it would be a snail. Yes, Parasect has both Dry Skin and Damp, which makes no sense. Yes, poison dart frogs have wet skin. Game Freak isn't always logical, but that doesn't mean we don't have to be.
Daenym has a really valid point:
Really, if we're not going to actually give Mollux Drought, let's either give it one of the other 150+ abilities, or No Tertiary Ability. The "historical tag" of Drought is a cool idea but will only cause problems down the road when someone wants to unlock that ability.
When it was dead. Because being dry causes its health to deteriorate.
Liquid Ooze seems cool.
Supporting DW unreleased Drought for flavor. After Dry Skin and Illuminate, imo any other ability might as well be unreleased for flavor's sake. Even marginally competitive ability like Limber would detract CAP3 from its only (sadly) niche at the moment - water-absorbing fire types that struggle in sun
I don't really understand all of this Drought talk. Having no more competitive abilities would mean that Drought could not happen, and the only way to stop it is not releasing it. If it's not released, then what is the point?
Saying this, I support Sticky Hold and Liquid Ooze as other flavor abilities seeing as they don't do nothing, yet they are practically useless, especially compared to Dry Skin.
Saying this, I support Sticky Hold and Liquid Ooze as other flavor abilities seeing as they don't do nothing, yet they are practically useless, especially compared to Dry Skin.
Dry skin isn't supposed to be descriptive, it's meant more like a verb. As in, if the pokemon's skin dries, it gets hurt. Like what happens to the pokemon that have dry skin.
Unreleased drought sounds pretty good. I don't think this guy need another ability, and by making the DW ability unreleased it solves the flavor problem that would be caused by being one of the few pokemon not to have a DW ability.
Unreleased drought sounds pretty good. I don't think this guy need another ability, and by making the DW ability unreleased it solves the flavor problem that would be caused by being one of the few pokemon not to have a DW ability.
Ok, lets be honest, we did the first two CAP with it assumed that DW abilities were released because it would be a mess to deal with otherwise. Why give something an ability it can't use? It only serves to confuse players. And when it come to the CAP metagame later it only makes things worse. By the end of the gen I think it would be reasonable to assume all DW abilities will be released, and and then there is no reason not to release its DW. But, if we want to keep the CAP true to its concept, and the decisions of the community, then we can never release any DW ability we vote not to release. Now for a CAP metagame, this probably doesn't matter, but then what is the point? Honesty this feels to me like a veiled scheme to let Drought Mollux be available in the CAP meta (or more likely just a veiled scheme to try and dethrone Tomohawk as king of CAP). Doing something like this is a very messy process, and not something we should mess with when it comes to a flavor ability. And that's not even mentioning that Drought is a horrible flavor ability. I mean, how does this art even hint at it more than something like Magma Armor or the like. It doesn't. Woo, there was some art of it making it sunny. Yeah, and all Fire types learn Sunny Day. Who cares?
But even so, I don't see a need for anything beyond the two we have. Dry Skin is dominant enough when it comes to flavor that having it be the only normal ability and making Illuminate DW (or vice versa) would be by far the best way to go. No Tertiary Ability seem like the best choice to me.
But even so, I don't see a need for anything beyond the two we have. Dry Skin is dominant enough when it comes to flavor that having it be the only normal ability and making Illuminate DW (or vice versa) would be by far the best way to go. No Tertiary Ability seem like the best choice to me.
I'll be honest; I thought of Drought (unreleased) way back during the original Drought debate, but I'll totally give Rising_Dusk the credit for putting pen to paper and supporting his opinion. With that, I'll throw my own hat in that ring.
I think it was bugmaniacbob who originally mentioned Heatproof, and I love that idea. It's so pitifully useless as an Ability, it contrasts with Dry Skin (which I see as a good thing), and it makes sense to the design. Lava lamps are insulated so that they don't shatter when they heat up.
In the last discussion I mentioned Hustle, and I still love that idea as well. A translation of the Japanese Ability name could be Enthusiasm, and I think that Mos' supporting art portrays this in spades. Unless someone tried a Coil/Gunk Shot set (I totally would), the Attack boost on Molluxe's Base 45 is meaningless.
Flavor-wise, I could possibly see Abilities like Suction Cups and Flame Body cutting it, but we strictly agreed against Abilities with any competitive merit. Not only was Illuminate perfect for flavor, it literally does absolutely nothing in battle. With that Base 131 Special Attack, I can see Molluxe being an Agility/Nasty Plot Baton Pass recipient, and switching him in on a resisted Mach/Bullet Punch for a Flame Body burn is gimmicky and competitive. That is why I don't support those Abilities.
I can deal with but don't prefer No Tertiary Ability. Dry Skin and Illuminate as the only two Abilities seem odd next to each other, and I think that another flavor Ability would not only be fun but even out the options.
Even though Deck Knight clearly stated that he considered Limber to be a competitively viable Ability, if we could bypass that, I would be happy as a clam. Gives it the no-status gimmick and works as flavor. Unlikely, but still an idea.
Gluttony now scares the heck out of me. Just saying.
I think it was bugmaniacbob who originally mentioned Heatproof, and I love that idea. It's so pitifully useless as an Ability, it contrasts with Dry Skin (which I see as a good thing), and it makes sense to the design. Lava lamps are insulated so that they don't shatter when they heat up.
In the last discussion I mentioned Hustle, and I still love that idea as well. A translation of the Japanese Ability name could be Enthusiasm, and I think that Mos' supporting art portrays this in spades. Unless someone tried a Coil/Gunk Shot set (I totally would), the Attack boost on Molluxe's Base 45 is meaningless.
Flavor-wise, I could possibly see Abilities like Suction Cups and Flame Body cutting it, but we strictly agreed against Abilities with any competitive merit. Not only was Illuminate perfect for flavor, it literally does absolutely nothing in battle. With that Base 131 Special Attack, I can see Molluxe being an Agility/Nasty Plot Baton Pass recipient, and switching him in on a resisted Mach/Bullet Punch for a Flame Body burn is gimmicky and competitive. That is why I don't support those Abilities.
I can deal with but don't prefer No Tertiary Ability. Dry Skin and Illuminate as the only two Abilities seem odd next to each other, and I think that another flavor Ability would not only be fun but even out the options.
Even though Deck Knight clearly stated that he considered Limber to be a competitively viable Ability, if we could bypass that, I would be happy as a clam. Gives it the no-status gimmick and works as flavor. Unlikely, but still an idea.
Gluttony now scares the heck out of me. Just saying.
Color Change
Unreleased or Event Color Change.
Flavor Reason: Because lava lamps can change color. All of the ones I've owned changed colors.
Non-flavor reason: Plenty of people have made arguments for unreleased abilities, so I'm not going to repeat them. We've already had a chance to play around with drought on more than one pokemon, and study drought's effect on the metagame. Color Change is an ability that could be advantageous as much as it hinders, like Dry Skin. At the very least it'd be an avenue of study that A) won't ever be the pitch/basis for a CAP from scratch, according to the CAP guidelines, and B) isn't something that has really been explored as thoroughly as Drought. I'm not sure of the programming capabilities of the CAP server, but if color change only affected the first typing, or randomly affected one of the two typings (rather than both at once) then it could be completely different from Kacleon, and be even more interesting.
Edit: Anyone know how color change behaves if you hack it onto a dual-type in B/W?
Unreleased or Event Color Change.
Flavor Reason: Because lava lamps can change color. All of the ones I've owned changed colors.
Non-flavor reason: Plenty of people have made arguments for unreleased abilities, so I'm not going to repeat them. We've already had a chance to play around with drought on more than one pokemon, and study drought's effect on the metagame. Color Change is an ability that could be advantageous as much as it hinders, like Dry Skin. At the very least it'd be an avenue of study that A) won't ever be the pitch/basis for a CAP from scratch, according to the CAP guidelines, and B) isn't something that has really been explored as thoroughly as Drought. I'm not sure of the programming capabilities of the CAP server, but if color change only affected the first typing, or randomly affected one of the two typings (rather than both at once) then it could be completely different from Kacleon, and be even more interesting.
Edit: Anyone know how color change behaves if you hack it onto a dual-type in B/W?
Maybe I am just unimaginative, but for the life of me, I can't see the flavor behind Drought. Even if Drought is as useless as Illuminate, I see no flavor in it, at all.
Among all abilities, these are the ones (based solely on Mollux's design) that make sense:
Among all abilities, these are the ones (based solely on Mollux's design) that make sense:
- Color Change (though I doubt if it works for dual-types)
- Cute Charm
- Damp
- Gluttony
- Liquid Ooze
- Sticky Hold
- Tangled Feet
- Weak Armor
I agree. Limber or Insomnia would both be GREAT in my eyes . . . makes me kinda wish that it didn't have "illuminate" so that it could get BOTH meaning that you don't know which extra immunity it has: water, sleep or paralysis.
given that speed isn't this CAP's greatest asset, perhaps Insomnia would be the superior choice here over limber, but who's to say?
I really want Liquid Ooze as a third ability.
There's really no need to justify it from a flavor standpoint; the mere fact that our artwork is a lava lamp is enough of a justification already. I don't think that it's too competitively viable, either. The draining attacking moves aren't doing much to Mollux, which mitigates the impact of Liquid Ooze there, and the only common Leech Seed user is Ferrothorn, who dies to Mollux anyways; I'm pretty sure STAB <Fire-type attack> off 131 SpA is enough to kill it, given Heatran's prowess in doing so.
Aside from Liquid Ooze, however, either Gluttony or No Tertiary Ability seems to be the way to go. Doug's video of the cone snail really convinced me of the former's plausibility, while the rest of the abilities listed just aren't as intuitive as Liquid Ooze or Gluttony, which makes me think that they're not really worth it over a simple NTA at all.
There's really no need to justify it from a flavor standpoint; the mere fact that our artwork is a lava lamp is enough of a justification already. I don't think that it's too competitively viable, either. The draining attacking moves aren't doing much to Mollux, which mitigates the impact of Liquid Ooze there, and the only common Leech Seed user is Ferrothorn, who dies to Mollux anyways; I'm pretty sure STAB <Fire-type attack> off 131 SpA is enough to kill it, given Heatran's prowess in doing so.
Aside from Liquid Ooze, however, either Gluttony or No Tertiary Ability seems to be the way to go. Doug's video of the cone snail really convinced me of the former's plausibility, while the rest of the abilities listed just aren't as intuitive as Liquid Ooze or Gluttony, which makes me think that they're not really worth it over a simple NTA at all.
I agree with Jas. Using Unreleased Drought just feels like a sore losers cheap trick to perhaps eventually have it released in the cap metagame later on.
Hell, Capefeather basically admits to it, saying that it's unreleased in the playtest, and whatever happens after that in the CAP metagame isn't important anyway. This totally feels like opening a back door that will be used later on "Heey, Drought is cool, let's release it anyway. It's just the CAP metagame, we had our playtest to learn from already anyway.".
So yes, there is a later on. It's called the always available metagame that is always open for play... And that you seem to be opening it up for having a Drought-mon thrown into.
Even if it will remain unreleased for all pokemon generations to come, it's just confusing. I'm assuming that come beginning of Gen 6, all DW abilities will likely be released one way or another (perhaps a single legendary or so excluded, we don't know what Gamefreak will do). And then there's Mollux. This will totally be confusing. I can already see the comments: "What, that DW ability is not released? Why not? Every other DW ability is pretty much released!" And I totally see it happening that we'll give in at some point and release it anyway, just because it's easier than to answer all the questions on why Drought has not been released after all.
So again, it feels like we're using a third flavor ability to let a massive competitive ability have a very reasonable chance of seeing use in the long run in the CAP metagame. And before you even start with the CAP metagame being unimportant for the general purpose of the creation of one CAP, the CAP metagame is still what is played over the years and remembered. Not the playtest.
I adamantly oppose Drought and hope DK will take in mind the democratic decision of the community that voted against Drought, and will not slate Drought as an option at all. (CAP being a community project and all)
Damp and Color Change seem like fun options, but again, unreleased Color Change is not going to work, just like unreleased Drought is not going to work. And an available Color Change is just a mess mechanics wise, because there is no precedent for what happens to a color change pokemon with dual typing.
NTA seems like the only right choice here.
Hell, Capefeather basically admits to it, saying that it's unreleased in the playtest, and whatever happens after that in the CAP metagame isn't important anyway. This totally feels like opening a back door that will be used later on "Heey, Drought is cool, let's release it anyway. It's just the CAP metagame, we had our playtest to learn from already anyway.".
So yes, there is a later on. It's called the always available metagame that is always open for play... And that you seem to be opening it up for having a Drought-mon thrown into.
Even if it will remain unreleased for all pokemon generations to come, it's just confusing. I'm assuming that come beginning of Gen 6, all DW abilities will likely be released one way or another (perhaps a single legendary or so excluded, we don't know what Gamefreak will do). And then there's Mollux. This will totally be confusing. I can already see the comments: "What, that DW ability is not released? Why not? Every other DW ability is pretty much released!" And I totally see it happening that we'll give in at some point and release it anyway, just because it's easier than to answer all the questions on why Drought has not been released after all.
So again, it feels like we're using a third flavor ability to let a massive competitive ability have a very reasonable chance of seeing use in the long run in the CAP metagame. And before you even start with the CAP metagame being unimportant for the general purpose of the creation of one CAP, the CAP metagame is still what is played over the years and remembered. Not the playtest.
I adamantly oppose Drought and hope DK will take in mind the democratic decision of the community that voted against Drought, and will not slate Drought as an option at all. (CAP being a community project and all)
Damp and Color Change seem like fun options, but again, unreleased Color Change is not going to work, just like unreleased Drought is not going to work. And an available Color Change is just a mess mechanics wise, because there is no precedent for what happens to a color change pokemon with dual typing.
NTA seems like the only right choice here.
Drought doesn't really have any flavour merit in all honesty, especially in combination with Dry Skin.
I think DW would be a cool opportunity to release an alternative forme of the CAP, similar to Basculin and Gastrodon, which would have a slightly different ability over Dry Skin that maintains that essence, such as Water Absorb or Regenerator. This is really just for the sake of awesomeness, but we've never really done that before and I think it'd be fun to have two slightly different designs as well. The first can have Dry Skin / Illuminate and the second can have Water Absorb / Illuminate or whatever.
I think DW would be a cool opportunity to release an alternative forme of the CAP, similar to Basculin and Gastrodon, which would have a slightly different ability over Dry Skin that maintains that essence, such as Water Absorb or Regenerator. This is really just for the sake of awesomeness, but we've never really done that before and I think it'd be fun to have two slightly different designs as well. The first can have Dry Skin / Illuminate and the second can have Water Absorb / Illuminate or whatever.
Even though it's mostly mentioned for competitive reasons, i find Limber fits the design very well, with its curly arms and being an invertebrate
Sigh, even during the violent storms in the CAP discussions, I still support Drought. Gosh, if we don't take this chance NOW, there won't be any second chance because everyone will moan "Nooo, another weather starter! Dammit!" ad libitum.
I simply don't get why everybody keeps opposing Drought. Tell me why! Your arguments still don't convince me! Dethrone Ninetales? Please, even if it was so I don't see the problem. How many Fire abusers in OU do you count? Ninetales for starting the weather, Venusaur for its combo Chlorophyll-Growth-Solarbeam, Volcarona and Heatran for their Fire STABs, and... and who? Maybe Mollux for opposing water? Tell me other sun abusers that might alter the whole metagame. I dare you!
On the other side Rain and Sand are so easily abused that we were forced to ban Drizzle-Swift Swim and Garchomp-Excadrill due to game-breaking. Chlorophyll abusers are all Grass-type Pokemon weak to Fire! And what does Sun do? Increase the power of Fire attacks, so opposing Fire and Ice moves annihilate our Chlorophyll abusers. What is so game-breaking?
And flavor-wise... what can shine more than a sunny day?
Unreleased DW Drought is simply dumb. Or is released with limitations of moveset, or otherwise is almost as useless as Illuminate. A great way to troll everybody.
If you really can't accept Drought, then why don't we backtrack a little to see what was our goal? This CAP is meant to oppose Water...
I thought about that and I wonder... it is possible to give some original ability? I thought to a Water variant of Heatproof (*cough*Waterproof*cough*). An ability like that will be ALWAYS surpassed by Dry Skin (since you want the water healing sooo badly) and at the same time can guarantee a use in a Sun team, overruling its weakness to Water attacks while still receiving damage.
Tangled Feet... this is a snail, it hasn't any feet!
Status immunities sound a bit weird to me. Paralysis is mostly used to stop fast sweepers, but Mollux is quite slow. Ok, paralysis may prevent Mollux to attack once in a while, but otherwise I don't see much use. Sleep status has a major chance to appear due to Spore, Sleep Powder and to an extent Hypnosis, but still doesn't convince me. Breloom and Venusaur for example are scared of Mollux's Fire attacks, while Hypnosis rely too much in luck.
Weak Armor sounds decent and allow a Speed increase, but the Defense drop sucks. Still, sounds good to me.
Color Change could work if it modify only one of its typing.
Another Ability that I propose is Sturdy. It has a freaking shell, it can hide in it! And with Sand and hazards lurking in the metagame the CAP is going to have some problems switching in and exploiting its ability. Or maybe Shell Armor, or Flame Body. Like I said in a previous post, despite Volcarona and Heatran not having any external flame they have both access to Flame Body. Why can't Mollux? Maybe its shell is so hot that whoever touch it risks some nasty burns...
I also love Suction Cups. If this thing gets Shell Smash... eheheh, so scary!
Last ability that I find interesting is Shed Skin. It allows to shrug off Paralysis and Sleep once in a while. Maybe that doesn't make much sense, but also an Illuminate-less Ampharos doesn't make sense since it has a "tail that shine so brightly that can be seen even from space". *shrugs*
P.S.: forgive any spelling and grammar error, English is not my first language.
I simply don't get why everybody keeps opposing Drought. Tell me why! Your arguments still don't convince me! Dethrone Ninetales? Please, even if it was so I don't see the problem. How many Fire abusers in OU do you count? Ninetales for starting the weather, Venusaur for its combo Chlorophyll-Growth-Solarbeam, Volcarona and Heatran for their Fire STABs, and... and who? Maybe Mollux for opposing water? Tell me other sun abusers that might alter the whole metagame. I dare you!
On the other side Rain and Sand are so easily abused that we were forced to ban Drizzle-Swift Swim and Garchomp-Excadrill due to game-breaking. Chlorophyll abusers are all Grass-type Pokemon weak to Fire! And what does Sun do? Increase the power of Fire attacks, so opposing Fire and Ice moves annihilate our Chlorophyll abusers. What is so game-breaking?
And flavor-wise... what can shine more than a sunny day?
Unreleased DW Drought is simply dumb. Or is released with limitations of moveset, or otherwise is almost as useless as Illuminate. A great way to troll everybody.
If you really can't accept Drought, then why don't we backtrack a little to see what was our goal? This CAP is meant to oppose Water...
I thought about that and I wonder... it is possible to give some original ability? I thought to a Water variant of Heatproof (*cough*Waterproof*cough*). An ability like that will be ALWAYS surpassed by Dry Skin (since you want the water healing sooo badly) and at the same time can guarantee a use in a Sun team, overruling its weakness to Water attacks while still receiving damage.
Tangled Feet... this is a snail, it hasn't any feet!
Status immunities sound a bit weird to me. Paralysis is mostly used to stop fast sweepers, but Mollux is quite slow. Ok, paralysis may prevent Mollux to attack once in a while, but otherwise I don't see much use. Sleep status has a major chance to appear due to Spore, Sleep Powder and to an extent Hypnosis, but still doesn't convince me. Breloom and Venusaur for example are scared of Mollux's Fire attacks, while Hypnosis rely too much in luck.
Weak Armor sounds decent and allow a Speed increase, but the Defense drop sucks. Still, sounds good to me.
Color Change could work if it modify only one of its typing.
Another Ability that I propose is Sturdy. It has a freaking shell, it can hide in it! And with Sand and hazards lurking in the metagame the CAP is going to have some problems switching in and exploiting its ability. Or maybe Shell Armor, or Flame Body. Like I said in a previous post, despite Volcarona and Heatran not having any external flame they have both access to Flame Body. Why can't Mollux? Maybe its shell is so hot that whoever touch it risks some nasty burns...
I also love Suction Cups. If this thing gets Shell Smash... eheheh, so scary!
Last ability that I find interesting is Shed Skin. It allows to shrug off Paralysis and Sleep once in a while. Maybe that doesn't make much sense, but also an Illuminate-less Ampharos doesn't make sense since it has a "tail that shine so brightly that can be seen even from space". *shrugs*
P.S.: forgive any spelling and grammar error, English is not my first language.
I think no further ability is necessary. Dry Skin as its main ability and DW Illuminate seems reasonable to me, I think adding any other ability would seem forced.
I can see that adding unreleased Drought would be a neat homage to the fact that it was always a contentious idea that garnered a lot of support, but I don't really see how it fits flavour-wise (the artwork showing drought doesn't really sell it to me), and to be honest, I don't see why we should be honouring something that lost in the polls. That starts a bad precedent in my opinion. It would just encourage people in later CAPs to keep resubmitting ideas that lost, which is what it has ended up looking like this time.
Unreleased Drought seems like a nice idea on the surface, but I think it is unnecessary, and we'd be better off with no extra ability at all.
I can see that adding unreleased Drought would be a neat homage to the fact that it was always a contentious idea that garnered a lot of support, but I don't really see how it fits flavour-wise (the artwork showing drought doesn't really sell it to me), and to be honest, I don't see why we should be honouring something that lost in the polls. That starts a bad precedent in my opinion. It would just encourage people in later CAPs to keep resubmitting ideas that lost, which is what it has ended up looking like this time.
Unreleased Drought seems like a nice idea on the surface, but I think it is unnecessary, and we'd be better off with no extra ability at all.
How about Rough Skin?
I mean, if your skin is dry, it might also be rough... so maybe Rough Skin is just an alternative type of dry skin? I think it pales in comparison to the actual Dry Skin ability, but still offers the same flavor?
I am not sure that the contact damage it offers comes close to the usability of Dry Skin. /shrug
I mean, if your skin is dry, it might also be rough... so maybe Rough Skin is just an alternative type of dry skin? I think it pales in comparison to the actual Dry Skin ability, but still offers the same flavor?
I am not sure that the contact damage it offers comes close to the usability of Dry Skin. /shrug
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