CAP 31 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

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spoo

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CAP 31 So Far

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It's time to discuss one of the most important decisions for CAP 31, its type! Please follow dex's posts carefully and DO NOT immediately propose type combinations until he says so.

Below is the final post from the Concept Assessment thread:

Thank you all for the amazing discussion on short turnaround time: we've had an amazing one over the last 24, and it's given us a ton of great stuff to work with going into typing. In short, Diamond Storm is really flexible: it doesn't immediately lend itself to demanding any role or even a typing. Using it strictly for the +2 defense chance, however, is unlikely to be our best option because of the low PP of the move. That 8 PP may be our biggest challenge to keep in mind going forward in fact, with several posts over the last day highlighting the need to complement Diamond Storm well for our success. With that in mind, I'm excited to hand it over to dex, and open up typing!
This thread will open after the Typing Leader, dex, makes his first post.
 

dex

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Welcome to the Typing stage! I'm dex, your gloriously soup-obsessed stage leader. We've got our move, Diamond Storm, which is incredibly open-ended as a basis for the rest of this process, so this stage is going to be doing a lot to define the future of this CAP. For the time being, direct talk of specific typings is not open. Instead, I've prepared a few questions that should help guide the rest of the stage.
  1. How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?
  2. What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?
  3. Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?
  4. Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamiand Storm's secondary effect against effectively?
Looking forward to your answers!

Bird Fact of the Day: The slowest top speed of any bird is that of the American Woodcock, clocking in at a blistering pace of 5 miles per hour.
 

ausma

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1: How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?
The interesting thing about Diamond Storm is that, honestly, we could go about it either way. However, I would like to say that, regardless of the role that CAP 31 takes, STAB is going to really help give Diamond Storm natural threat factor as a general-purpose attacking option, which all defensive Pokemon naturally need so they aren't as exploitable. Furthermore, this also plays to moveslot compression, as you’d have Diamond Storm play both the role of a naturally potent offensive option and your primary, passivity-reducing STAB. On the contrary, though, Rock- is arguably one of the best coverage types in the game, which could lend to a much more intrinsically unique process that focuses on using Diamond Storm as an option to check specific answers to other naturally powerful offensive types, such as the ever-annoying Flying types that inconvenience Fighting- and Ground-types. As such, I think it really depends on if we view Diamond Storm as being a consistent, damage-dealing option that should be easy to click, or if we want to use it as a way to augment a coverage profile for another naturally powerful offensive type.

In my personal opinion, I think giving Diamond Storm STAB would really continue to open up the process considering that giving Diamond Storm STAB has both offensive and defensive benefits for the reasons stated above, and given that Rock-types in of themselves have some very intrinsic merits in their resistances to highly potent attacking types in Fire- and Flying- which has legitimate utility in helping keep things like Heatran or Tornadus-T at bay. Regardless of what other type we add, I'm definitely on board for at least giving CAP 31 a Rock-type simply because of its flexibility with Diamond Storm and unique resistance profile.

2: What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?
Obviously, here we would be looking at types that naturally threaten standard Diamond Storm answers; things like the Fighting-, Ground-, and Fire-types all come to mind as types readily capable of applying major pressure against things like opposing Steel-types, which are bar none the best Diamond Storm pivots while still hitting most Ground-types neutrally. However, I also think looking at this pragmatically is important, too; bulky Water-types like Slowbro and Toxapex come to mind as Pokemon that can naturally pivot into Diamond Storm due to their sheer bulk, and threaten the user back with an egregious Scald or utility move to make progress. As such, I also think the Electric-type is a very interesting type to consider here, as it is a type that naturally threatens Slowbro and Toxapex back, as well as gutsy Urshifu-R and Corviknight pivots. Furthermore, Diamond Storm is an option that pressures the everpresent, go-to Electric-immunity in Landorus-T with a neutral attacking type; even with Intimidate in the equation, Diamond Storm will still naturally apply pressure to Landorus-T, especially if we opt for an ability like Clear Body or Defiant to really amp the pressure against it and if defense boosts get involved.

I admit this part is a bit tricky, since I think inevitably choosing the Rock-type as an option to complement Diamond Storm with STAB is going to lead to one or two specific Pokemon to wall it consistently. Of the options, Electric covers a lot of ground offensively with some unique interactions with predominant Ground-type Landorus-T, but on the other hand, is anti-synergy with the types of Pokemon you'd appreciate Diamond Storm's defense boosts against. I feel as though with the above in mind, that I am the largest fan of the Ground-type as an option to complement our Diamond Storm user, as it intrinsically makes CAP 31's defensive profile useful with an Electric-type immunity and is menacing offensively, packing one of the most terrifying offensive combination of types in the game alongside Diamond Storm. Of the options, it's offensively the most consistent, though it also has the potential to be very dangerous if handled rashly. On the other hand, the Fighting-type also has some very quirky and fun merits. It not only packs natural defensive utility with a super nice Knock Off resistance, but also has very great natural synergy with Rock offensively, provides a consistent way to batter Steel- and Flying-types, and like Ground-types, threatens things like Heatran which might be more willing to take a Diamond Storm and hit back with Earth Power. I am also just a huge fan of the idea of pairing Diamond Storm with STAB Body Press, which could prove to have genuinely great merits on more defensively inclined sets that pack moves like Stealth Rock or Toxic. Boosting options like Swords Dance could give offensive variants a way to brute force bulky Water-types with Diamond Storm, too, so it's not like going with Fighting- is going to really restrict options offensively.

Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?
I think it really depends on what the type in question is, and how much we value the offensive prowess of Diamond Storm. If we opt for a type that has natural defensive utility and pairs well with the Rock-type offensively, we'll have a lot more ground (haha) to explore the roles that Diamond Storm plays into more when working in tandem with a type that naturally complements it from an offensive, or potentially even defensive, POV. Going with something like Electric-, while offensively quite appealing, is not quite the most appealing defensively; however, that might not be a bad thing depending on how we view the value of Diamond Storm, and how we value the nuances of Diamond Storm offensively relative to Pokemon that would attempt to check CAP 31.

4: Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamond Storm's secondary effect against effectively?
The Ground-type, without a doubt, is a very major type to consider here, given that Rock-types are naturally highly threatened by Landorus-T's Earthquake. As such, I definitely am an advocate of avoiding a quad-weakness to the types Diamond Storm's defense boosts would help against (types that are predominantly physical, generally) if at all possible, considering that in that situation, the defense boost ultimately becomes meaningless as you'll just faint anyway. There's also merit in boosting against Fighting-type Pokemon like Galarian Zapdos, or specific threats like Pajantom, Weavile, or Garchomp.

In my opinion, I believe there is a great appeal in using the secondary effect as a natural bonus to force switches against Pokemon that could otherwise threaten you with a KO, but it then boils down to the options available to really take advantage of that turn, whether it's to force added damage with repeated rounds of Diamond Storm or super-effective coverage, or make progress in some other way (status, hazards, etc). I think it's reasonable to emphasize Diamond Storm for its consistency as a high powered Rock-type move, but its secondary effect is frequent enough to warrant thinking about how it could impact the turnout of specific 1v1s.
 

Zetalz

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How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?
I think this depends mostly on whether or not we seek to use Diamond Storm as CAP 31's primary source of damage output. STAB on any move is very valuable for most any role without a doubt, but for Diamond Storm in particular is not wholly necessary. Rock is a good coverage type that can hit a fair amount of relevant meta targets, and can be great neutral coverage paired with certain other STAB moves. It really does just depend if we want to clicka da button with Diamond Storm specifically or a different STAB/other powerful move that Diamond backs up.

What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?
The main type that puts a dampener on Rock-type usage are Steels, so the types that immediately spring to mind are those capable of dealing with Steels like Ground, Fighting and Fire. Edgequake needs no introduction, a classic coverage combo for a long time now that covers a lot of the two individual types' issues. Fire & Fighting are also quite potent when paired with Rock though not quite to the same degree. This next one is a bit odd for sure but Psychic or Flying aren't terrible coverage partners for Rock either in CAPs meta specifically, Fighting types can be another headache for Rock and CAP has a fair number of strong ones running about that these could help cover (that said those Fighting mons are in decline atm, especially Argh.)

Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?
Not that big a fan of hamstringing ourselves into a specific role early on as time as gone on with the project, it can start to feel overly constraining and rigid, and this applies as far as typing goes as well. As we've been over Diamond Storm is nothing if not flexible, we have breathing room to experiment at this point.

was going to answer question 4 but am sleepo, maybe tomorrow ;-;
 
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This is my first CAP that I get to watch and engage with from nearly the beginning, and I'm excited. Please forgive me if I embarass myself. I hope I don't, but nothing ventured nothing gained. I've been reading the discussion threads of previous CAPs, so I think I have a decent idea of the kinds of ideas that are valued here, but if I'm off-base, don't hesitate to let me know.


  1. How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?
I think it's important that CAP31 have rock STAB. Diamond Storm being a coverage move could work practically, as rock is a solid coverage type, as others have discussed already. However, coverage moves are by nature situational. I feel like relegating the forbidden fruit to being a coverage move will reduce how defining and essential it is to CAP31, and that would be uninteresting and a disservice to the concept. One might argue that, in the non-STAB scenario, DS would still see consistent, important use while fishing for the defense boost. This very well could work, but I feel the inconsistency of the defense boost would make using DS in this way scarier and less fun. I feel CAP31 would be more fun and reliablle if DS is used more for damage than for the boost.

If we don't give CAP31 rock STAB, I think it would be best if the typing was one for which rock is especially potent coverage, such as Bug/Grass, again to increase its prominence/consistent usefulness.

2. What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?
More conventional (and probably better lol) ideas have been given already, so I'll talk a bit about something else. I find Bug and Grass interesting in this context. As has been discussed, Ground is potentially scary and a very strong prevalent type. Bug can hit ground for neutral, Grass can hit it for super effective, and both resist it defensively. Beyond ground, if CAP31 is indeed Rock type, Bug or Grass will help it deal with grass or water threats, respectively. Fighting and Steel are still definite issues however.

Outside of type interactions: Diamond Storm is physical. Bug is a physically slanted type, and Grass also has solid physical options, so that's another bit of synergy between them.


I don't think I have anything interesting to say regarding 3 and 4.
 
3. Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?
Rock's interactions with other typings can be polarizing; there are some combos that work well defensively with some help from an Ability (like Grass and Fairy) and great offensive typings that still need a little help switching in (like Fighting and Ground). I don't think a compromise is impossible, but it would be better to decide what this mon needs, and what the metagame needs, sooner rather than later. It's better if we have a great type for one purpose instead of a mediocre type for many.

4. Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamiand Storm's secondary effect against effectively?
Flying is the big one. There's some strong birbs here like EBook and Gapdos, and regardless of role, this mon needs to be a safe bet into a rogue Brave Bird, even just once. A Fighting neutrality would help a lot (but isn't mandatory) for the latter. A Steel neutrality could give us another check to that dumb matchup bird Cawmodore, and that's a 100% positive in my book.

Having a good switchin to Fire, Ghost, Dark and Ice would be healthy for the meta, but these would be more like nice bonuses or already provided by a partial Rock typing.
 

Zephyri

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  1. How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?
I think this is almost entirely dependent on how we want to use Diamond Storm. If we want to use it as a wallbreaking tool and capitalize on "strong rock type w 100% accuracy", then STAB is necessary. If we want to capitalize on the +2 defense chance, then it can go either way. Honestly think figuring that out is really important at this stage; obviously, we should try to utilize both aspects but figuring out which one to prioritize can help direct and define the process better I think. Don't really have an answer to that question rn but thought I'd mention it anyway. I'm of the opinion that making Diamond Storm STAB gives it a better chance of being used on sets without "hamstringing" CAP31 (hamstringing is very loose here, but making sure non-stab dstorm gets used requires our creation to not inherently beat birds, to not have 2-move utility that's better than dstorm, and to not have better coverage than dstorm for its typing). With that in mind, I think I'm in favor of using Diamond Storm as STAB, but im willing to have my opinion changed here, and I can def see the arguments for non-stab (it plays better into the low pp -> specific targets thing, rock is already useful as coverage, provides the possibility for fcharge blace/fstinger mbee-esque use where it's used as a finishing move that enables sweeping).

  1. What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?
Agree w a lot of what zeta said; steels are big sad for diamond storm rock types. not going to rehash his points in that regard, but I think something like Grass or Electric sounds cool bcs of how they interact with bulky waters, which will no doubt function as switchins to diamond storm unless we intend to go in the terrak direction of "kill everything". Grass sounds slightly cooler imo because you beat colo too (although fighting would do that too) and work as neutral coverage vs lando/libra/chomp

might update later with answers to other questions but these are my thoughts for now :>

 
How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?
I think the more offensive CAP 31 is, the less necessary STAB will be for Diamond Storm to be used.
As others have pointed out, Rock is a very solid Coverage option for some typings.
Especially those, that have trouble with flying and fire types will appreciate rock coverage.
Obviously any typing, that lends itself as great coverage, is also very capable as a STAB type. Which means that we will have a very open playing field if we want to use Diamond Storm on an offensive Mon.

Now Diamond Storm is a powerful move in its own right, but I see it being less effective on its own or as coverage, the less powerful CAP 31 attacking stats are.
Once you reach a certain threshold, Pokémon start running more Spammable and utility focused attacks, as their damage output is just not high enough to threaten high damage anyway and the additional utility has a higher impact throughout the game.
It’s secondary effect grants it some utility in some situations, but I am not certain, that it would be enough to supplant a utility move like Knock Off or Stealth Rock or Will O Wisp in its moveset, because while its typing is solid offensively as stated, Diamond Storms low PP make it less spammable than other moves - on a defensive Mon it probably would be most comparable to Gyro Ball on Ferrothorn, which mostly is there to ensure having a high power attack against fast and frail attackers but, given Ferros nature, rarely if ever is used over any of its utility options in Knock Off, Hazards or Leech Seed.

Additionally, with the exception of Body Press, mainly defensive mons like Ferrothorn, Clefable or Arghonaut won’t run Attacking moves without utility unless they are STAB moves.

Tldr: The more offensively inclined CAP31 is, the less important STAB will be compared to its overall synergy with other (attacking) moves.

What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?
Others already have mentioned the most obvious options between the legendary edge/quake, rock/fighting and fire.

I do like the mention of Electric, as Diamond Storm has some tough match ups into Bulky Water types, especially Toxapex, Arghonaut and Slowbro as well as into Corviknight, will Rock actually threatens Landorus, the main Ground Type.

Grass is another interesting option, that appreciates rocks ability to deal with flying, fire and Bug types, while threaten Grounds, that aren’t Lando.

Last I’d say Fairy might be interesting as it can hit Garchomp and Arghonaut as well as threaten Urshifu, which all look to be good switch ins to Diamond Storm atm.

Edit: I feel like a typing with Strong neutral Coverage like Ghost or Dragon can be very valuable, since Rock has several important targets in the meta and can force the switches, that these types can capitalize on

In general Id say, that rock isn’t as easy to justify on a two attacks set as it once was, and often appreciates two additional coverage types, but in combination with some of the above types, forms a Trifecta, that threatens large parts of the meta Super effectively.

Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?
I don’t think we have to at the moment.
Id rather focus on Rocks and Diamond Storms intrinsic offensive and defensive value and which types synergize best with it.
Rock is an iffy typing into defensive roles specially and I think, that we might narrow the playing field too much if we took a decision now.

Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamiand Storm's secondary effect against effectively?
I think we should look at Chromeras process here a bit. We’ve already seen, that halving the power of certain attacks in one turn means you can turn a resist into a 4x resist, a neutrality into a resist and a weakness into a neutrality.
I still think that turning a neutrality into a resist and a weakness into a neutrality are more powerful than improving an already existing resist.
Now the effect isn’t guaranteed so it’s not as clear cut as it was with Chromera.

What attacking types exactly we can take advantage of hinges on which typings we chose ultimately.
I do think that Rock itself has an interesting relationship with this effect, since it’s generally poor defensively, with some glaring defensive issues and only a few reasonable resists.

What I want to say is, that creating a Rock type Pokémon, that suddenly is neutral to ground and fightings or resists ice types is hella interesting.

I believe, that it will be more important to look at the matchups into mons, that want to switch in on Diamond Storm just to find themselves in a position, where they become less effective as an answer due to its effect.

This means Ground, Steel and Fighting types, as well Rock neutral Physical Pivots.

An obvious target is Landorus, as the defense boost helps deal with Earthquake and Diamond Storm still hits neutrally.

Other mons include Ferrothorn, Melmetal, Grachomp, Slowbro (if it’s Body Press), Kartana, Urshifu R, Arghonaut, Collosoil, Revenankh, Buzzwole and Skarmory.

That said, Urshifu R and Arghonaut ignore the defense boost anyway, which means they seem like hard to tackle candidates, while Melmetal, Garchomp and Kartana can be difficult to deal with even with a Neutral Mon, unless you already have above average bulk.
 
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How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?
Looking at Diamond Storm's usage in Balanced Hackmons, it is used as either STAB (e.g. Tyranitar, older-gen Tyranitar-Mega) or as coverage for a select few mons (mainly Xerneas so it can hit Ho-oh really hard). There are peculiarities in BH such as Thousand Arrows removing the need for Ground STAB to be paired with a coverage move, which is why Diamond Storm appears in BH deceptively rarely.

This means that Diamond Storm is likely restricted to being either STAB or as coverage for a select few types (which will be covered in my answer for Question 2). Many types will not be so lured to use Diamond Storm if they can pick a move with better coverage instead.

Offensive roles appreciate Diamond Storm as either STAB or, more rarely, as coverage. Defensive roles tend to need either great utility (e.g. Knock Off, Rapid Spin, trapping moves in BH, Poison Fang in BH) or considerable damage from their moves. It is a lot easier for a move to deal considerable damage (especially to mons the defensive mon is supposed to check) if the defensive mon has STAB on it.

In fact, rather like how Steam Eruption is spurned on defensive sets in BH in favour of Scald, even though Steam Eruption has a 20% higher burn chance and deals more damage, because Scald has more than twice the PP of Steam Eruption's 8, I fear that defensive roles may similarly forgo Diamond Storm entirely due to its PP problems. This fear is likely unwarranted if the mon gets STAB on Diamond Storm (cue existing Diamond Storm usage on Diancie and the usage of Sacred Fire, a move with an arguably more powerful secondary effect and similar PP issues, on Ho-oh), but I think it is very warranted if the mon does not get STAB on Diamond Storm.
What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?
A Rock-type cares more about which types hit typings that resist Rock super-effectively. Since Rock is resisted by Steel, Ground, and Fighting, this means that good coverage types for Rock are primarily ones that hit Steel super-effectively - Fire, Ground, and Fighting - but also include typings that hit Ground and/or Fighting super-effectively such as Water. I would remain leery about picking only coverage types that leave our Diamond Storm mon walled by Steel-types, though, such as Grass (hits Ground super-effectively) and Psychic, Flying, and Fairy (hit Fighting super-effectively).

A non-Rock type cares more about whether Diamond Storm can super-effectively hit any typing that resists its STABs. Ground and Fighting come up big here again, as Rock deals super-effective damage to Flying, and Flying is immune to Ground and resists Fighting. The Xerneas-using-Diamond Storm example I mentioned earlier alludes to Rock being OK coverage for any type resisted by Fire, such as Fairy, Fire itself, Grass, and Ice. Note that many of these types, when paired with Rock, still get walled by Steel-types.

As a result, especially since Heatran is fairly big in the CAP meta and is Rock-neutral, I believe that Diamond Storm will see play as a coverage move in CAP for deceptively few non-Rock typings (quite possibly Ground and Fighting and that's it). If you want to hit Heatran and Astrolotl super-effectively with one move, you're better off making it a Ground-type one (then pray for no Air Balloons). The Bug- and Ice-types of CAP don't tend to be bulky enough to necessitate super-effective coverage such as Diamond Storm against them (see Weavile, Syclant, Miasmaw).
 
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How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?
STAB attributes to the ease of using Diamond Storm as an offensive threat in particular, being a more reliable high power move is an absolute luxury among rock types. The effect of +2 defense can add towards being a more powerful wall however being able to remove checks from +2 defense as an offensive threat is far more interesting. Slotting in Diamond Storm as a coverage option restricts the mileage attained from being a strong move with a unique secondary effect. With that being said we can take the route of Diamond Storm being a more reliable Stone Edge as coverage, however this admittedly is far less interesting and quite frankly is wasteful of the opportunity we have to create a much more interesting Pokemon with this concept.
What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?
Between all of the options presented so far, fighting I do find to offer the best possible synergies available. Body Press directly translates this effect into an effective offensive weapon especially considering both rock and fighting are able to play off each other as offensive types between steel and flying targets. Ground with edgequake coverage is simple and reliable till the end of time, this coverage is seen distributed everywhere and it’s effective in what it does, not much else to say on this.
Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?
Diamond Storm in effect is able to facilitate any role well and quite frankly tunnel visioning on any specific role too early in the process hurts any opportunity to explore anything else. I believe the typing we pick should follow this philosophy being flexible towards any role.
Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamiand Storm's secondary effect against effectively?
I’ll preface this section with saying that I’m not well informed on the CAP metagame, but from my understanding with the powerful flying types in the meta, flying types are among the primary targets of a powerful rock move. With its secondary effect in mind, Diamond Storm has the unique advantage to nullify the power of moves thrown at us by what would-be checks utilizing the defense boost often removing them as effective checks as a whole, I’m sure there are multiple key targets for this.
 
4. Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamiand Storm's secondary effect against effectively?
I was thinking that two of the more common physical moves thrown around are Knock Off & U-Turn which can do at least respectable enough chip, or can do major damage depending on the typing matchup, that they especially force out those weak to them and don't have an ability like regenerator.

So this is kind of a weird input, but perhaps Ghost, Psychic, or Grass could leverage the +2 defense boost effectively.
(And as others already gave reasoning for above, these types wouldn't have to be paired with Rock, aka it could be non-stab.)

I'd like to add that I'm more interested in capitalizing on the +2 defense chance with the damage as a perk, than focusing on a spammable/wallbreaking attack
 
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How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?

IMO stab is a must. Designing a project around a coverage move seems silly. Obviously sweepers and wall breakers, more the latter than the former, appreciate strong stab, but I would like to see it designed where the secondary effect synergies with the secondary typing
What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?

Strictly based on coverage...ground, steel, and fighting are all that resist us. No one type can cover all 3, so we would have to either a) pick one typing and cover that and just hope we get a good coverage move pool or b) find a second stab move option that synergies with diamond storm's secondary effect. To me that typing would be fighting to be able to hit steel super effecting and the other resisted types for neutral. In particular I'm thinking body press. BP allows you to check thu gs like ferrothorn, hit stuff like hippowdon for neutral, and still have checks like Lando.
Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?

Easy answer....no
Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamiand Storm's secondary effect against effectively?

Fire has to be the big one here. Specifically astro who wants to spam fire lash. Not only could we resist it, the +2 buff out paces the -1 debut from lash
 
How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?

I think that for what we talked about in concept assessment, we concluded that Diamond Storm is best used as a strong, consistent Rock move with a useful, albeit unnecessary, secondary effect. Personally, I think that to most fully use Diamond Storm, whether offensively or defensively, it should be STAB. On an offensive mon, having a consistent and strong STAB Rock move would be amazing; the best we have is Paleo Wave on Stratagem (which either needs the boost from Meteor Beam or Specs). This would let Diamond Storm truly shine (pun intended) and apply real pressure to the things it’s meant to pressure. Defensively, having a consistent and powerful STAB move to pressure opposing mons can allow CAP31 to force progress through means like Stealth Rock and Toxic, and give it some presence when it comes in. Another example of this that others brought up is Ho-oh, which though it uses a stronger effect, Sacred Fire fills a similar role. Its STAB boosted power forces switches, and its high secondary effect chance limits some potential counterplay. This allows Ho-oh to do its main job: spread Toxic and Twave and clear hazards. Either way we go, I think that STAB should be highly prized, as it will allow CAP31 the power that it needs to use Diamond Storm in a way that will provide weight.

Because I think this is so important, I am going to treat CAP31 as a Rock-type for the rest of my discussion. I don't think it's absolutely necessary, but I think that it's the best option that we can go for.

What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?

As others mentioned, Fire, Ground, and Fighting are indispensable for pressuring Rock’s most common switch in: Steel. EdgeQuake is the undisputed king of physically offensive coverage. Body Press is a decently strong physical move that can benefit from our secondary effect. I think something interesting that is relatively unexplored and could be really strong is combining Diamond Storm with strong physical Fire coverage. Our closest example to this in CAP is the relatively unviable Smokomodo, and beyond that, there's the occasional Groudon set, Stratagem (on the special side) Coalossal, and the hopelessly unviable Magcargo. No other mon really utilizes Rock and Fire offensively well. I don't exactly want to advocate for Rock/Fire typing, as it's horribly weak to both Water and Ground, and to use it well would likely mandate some immunity ability like Levitate or Water Absorb, and that would be polljumping. Our best options for physical Fire coverage are Heat Crash, Fire Lash, and Flare Blitz. I don't think we want Fire Lash, cause Lotl covers it, Flare Blitz's recoil is undesirable, and Heat Crash isn't always a consistent attacking option. Blaze Kick is an option, but I don't like 90% accuracy, and Fire Punch really would need STAB behind it to create pressure. I do think that having Fire STAB could be an interesting option, as no mons have used this STAB combo well.

Going back to our other types, I think that both Ground and Fighting could make for an interesting STAB combo. We don't actually have any truly offensive Rock/Grounds, with the closest being Rhyperior, boasting a blistering base 40 speed. It would be cool to have a mon that can run faster than your average turtle that uses this STAB combo. For Rock/Fighting, we only have Terrakion, who doesn't really use its strong defensive typing defensively, which I think that Diamond Storm's secondary effect could uniquely offer. We could have an offensive Rock/Fighting that can doesn't have to be as much of a glass cannon as Terrakion usually is.

One other type I like is Electric. Not any other mons use this STAB combo, and as others have mentioned, it can really help against bulky Waters, especially Arghonaut, which would normally like to switch into Diamond Storm. Also, frick Flying-types, all my homies hate Flying-types. The options here are mostly limited in terms of moves though, with our options being Wild Charge, Thunder Punch, Thunder Fang, and Zing Zap, which either have undesirable recoil (Wild Charge) or depend on STAB to create pressure (other 3). Rock/Electric could be a powerful offensive typing, but we again have 4x weakness to Ground, which no mon truly wants.

Finally, another interesting option with a good physical bent is Bug. Bug gives CAP31 a Fighting, Grass, and Ground neutrality, which helps capitalize on Diamond Storm's defense boosts, offensively hits Grass types that could normally deal with Rock types, and overall complements Rock well offensively. The main issue with this type would be the Stealth Rock weakness, which either cuts down on longevity or forces it to use boots, and the Flying neutrality that weakens one of the main defensive capabilities of the Rock typing. Diamond Storm can help mitigate this against mons like EBook, but most of our Flying-types utilize Hurricane, which limits our switch-ins to Flying-types (bar Lando-T). Still, I think its an interesting option to explore, as the only others that have used this typing are Armaldo and Crustle, who are dependent on setup and unreliable Stone Edge.

Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?

Honestly, I think that aren't really any typings that lend themselves to any roles (at least considering Rock as STAB). Maybe a type that grants resistances or immunities to the main physical weaknesses of Rock could be useful for a defensive mon, like Bug, Ghost, Grass, or Flying. Typings that have heavy weaknesses with Rock like Fire, Water, and Ground would make more sense offensively, as the offensive prowess and potential coverage can threaten switch ins.

Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamond Storm's secondary effect against effectively?

See comments regarding Bug. I honestly thing Fighting works here too, as it has a useful Dark resistance and complements Body Press. Ground provides a very useful Electric immunity that can allow it to check Zeraora and counter it when boosted (as well as others like koko and zap). Flying gives a Ground immunity, but frick Flying (jk). I know that in BH, Mega Aerodactyl used Diamond Storm, and would often be able to get off that one extra move due to defense boosts. I know we’re all tired of Flying, but this is a potential option.

tl;dr - It should definitely be a Rock-type, and I think that Fire and Bug are potentially our most interesting options.
 
puttin some thoughts here from Discord:

How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?

Being a Rock-type is important for CAP31. You'd think Diamond Storm would be nice supplementary coverage (e.g. for a Ground- or Fighting-type), but it's not half as spammable against a tier where half the viable birds are neutral to rock - and among the rock-weak birds, Venomicon will shrug off consecutive non-STAB Diamond Storms thanks to Stamina. As we've seen from Diancie-Mega in ORAS/SM OU and regular Diancie in Doubles OU, the large part of Diamond Storm's utility is getting the boosts while you're already clicking a very clickable move. I'm not saying we need to proc it all the time to function, but given that we're designing around it, we'd like to proc as often as possible. Having a very clickable Rock STAB enables that.

Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?

That said, I don't think it's fair to narrow the design-space of CAP31 to a pure offensive role just yet. Rock has pretty nice resists against Heatran's Magma Storm and the numerous powerful Flying-type STAB moves whizzing around the tier. Rock also has its interaction with Sandstorm to contend with - which could complement Diamond Storm's defense boosts if, say, we pursue a Sand Stream bruiser route further down the line.

Most of the constraint in role actually comes down to our Forbidden Fruit being Diamond Storm in the first place - as a move with low PP and as a move you want to be clicking as often as possible.

Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamond Storm's secondary effect against effectively?

Landorus-T's Earthquake, Buzzwole's Close Combat, and to some extent Corviknight/Skarmory's Body Press are common physical moves that hit Rock-types for super-effective damage. Coincidentally, these 3 tanks are commonly switched into Rock-type moves in the tier. I really like the interaction where CAP31 doesn't necessarily have the raw power to muscle through these tanks, but can attempt to sit in front of them and trade damage if Diamond Storm's defense boosts proc.

Even if CAP31 has a secondary typing that negates the Ground/Fighting weakness, it's still nice to be able to eat those hits 50% of the time - kind of like how Kartana doesn't mind a Landorus-T Earthquake or two, or how Bulk Up Zeraora can sometimes use the defense boosts to avoid being revenge killed by priority.

Knock Off is another move that CAP31 wouldn't mind being weak to, for the same reason that many Knock Off users don't run it as their STAB, and tanking the first Knock Off at +2 makes subsequent Knock Offs even weaker. This broadens our design space a little bit (and facilitates possible discussion about Weakness Policy strats or other lure sets down the road).

---

Replies to others:


In fact, rather like how Steam Eruption is spurned on defensive sets in BH in favour of Scald, even though Steam Eruption has a 20% higher burn chance and deals more damage, because Scald has more than twice the PP of Steam Eruption's 8, I fear that defensive roles may similarly forgo Diamond Storm entirely due to its PP problems.
Steam Eruption has a 30% burn chance... but yeah this is a solid point. 8 PP burns out fast, especially considering the existence of Corviknight.

Between all of the options presented so far, fighting I do find to offer the best possible synergies available. Body Press directly translates this effect into an effective offensive weapon especially considering both rock and fighting are able to play off each other as offensive types between steel and flying targets.
This doesn't sound too bad (unlike CAP's previous attempt at synergising Stamina with Body Press). The huge majority of DOU Diancies run Body Press for this reason. That said, non-STAB Fighting coverage (that only becomes formidable after a 50% chance to proc a boost) is pretty weaksauce in this meta.

Fire has to be the big one here. Specifically astro who wants to spam fire lash. Not only could we resist it, the +2 buff out paces the -1 debut from lash
Astrolotl is probably not sitting in and clicking Fire Lash against Diamond Storm.
 
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Astra

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How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?
I don't necessarily think that CAP 31 needs Diamond Storm to be STAB for any of its roles. As some users have already mentioned, though, our decision should be dependent of what aspect of Diamond Storm we want to focus on. If we want to focus more on the fact that its a near-perfectly reliable Rock-type move in a metagame with a lot of Flying-type usage, our bias towards giving CAP 31 STAB for it becomes more heavy. On the contrary, taking aim towards its more utility aspects, we can be a lot more flexible. Rock in general is a great type for coverage moves, and we obviously can't ignore its potential secondary effect, so I'd like to think that because of these traits, we are very open to more typing possibilities besides Rock that can really take advantage of them.

In regards to what roles may appreciate STAB Diamond Storm more, roles that lean more towards offensiveness would obviously benefit from it, but some offensive roles I believe can manage without a Rock typing. Fast sweepers would likely benefit from STAB a lot more for the extra damage, but perhaps an offensive tank, for example, would appreciate it more if it didn't due to the fact that, well, Rock isn't the greatest defensive typing at all. An offensive tank would likely appreciate its great coverage and potential Defense boosts even more, with its actual STAB moves synergizing well with it.

What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?
Ignoring the obvious synergy Diamond Storm has with Body Press (only on paper thought, in my opinion), I could see Fighting working decently well, appreciating Diamond Storm scaring off Flying-types and taking care of Steel-types in return. Fire and Ground I would imagine share a similar synergy with Diamond Storm, taking some inspiration from what Diancie and Mega Diancie may run.

Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?
I don't really think so. Rock, while not my favorite type in terms of defensive value, can still manage to work on more defensive roles provided that we have a very supportive secondary type alongside it. Likewise, Rock can prove useful for some offensive roles, but given the fact that its already so useful as a coverage and utility move, I don't see us requiring ourselves to lock CAP 31 into Rock.
 
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quziel

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A Rock-type cares more about which types hit typings that resist Rock super-effectively. Since Rock is resisted by Steel, Ground, and Fighting, this means that good coverage types for Rock are primarily ones that hit Steel super-effectively - Fire, Ground, and Fighting - but also include typings that hit Ground and/or Fighting super-effectively such as Water. I would remain leery about picking only coverage types that leave our Diamond Storm mon walled by Steel-types, though, such as Grass (hits Ground super-effectively) and Psychic, Flying, and Fairy (hit Fighting super-effectively).
Gonna push back on this; a very large number of OU/CAP steel types have secondary typings such that they're either neutral to rock, or neutral to a potential secondary stab. Eg Ferrothorn is neutral to Bug and Ice despite Steel appearing to resist those typings. Heatran, Corviknight, Scizor, and Cawmodore are all neutral to Rock, and honest are a large percentage of OU steels (cause Heatran vgood). Aka pls look at the individual threats, not typings as a whole, cause they can really distort how we choose typings.

To sorta expand this point a bit. We should choose our typing to hit several Rock-resists neutrally or better, and as a stretch goal should try to hit some of the tier's physical walls (Pex, Bro, Corv, etc) SE. Being able to throw out a secondary strong neutral stab is going to buy us a fair bit more than specifically running eg Psychic to hit fighting-types (ignoring that it also hits Pex).

Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamiand Storm's secondary effect against effectively?

Looking at all the physical attackers in cap, I think this is realistically Ground attacks, as they're really the only ones that are commonly thrown out by uninvested attackers (aka uninvested Lando). There's also a fair argument for Grass, though while we can almost def tank through a Ferro Whip at +2 Def, it can likely just leech us, and tanking through a Kart Leaf Blade is difficult. Ice and Dark are heavily related to Weavile, but are very valid targets to deny revenge killing using Bpress, they also apply to Zera/Kart, and if our typing is weak to either I think denying revenge killing from them is very valid.
 
To sorta expand this point a bit. We should choose our typing to hit several Rock-resists neutrally or better, and as a stretch goal should try to hit some of the tier's physical walls (Pex, Bro, Corv, etc) SE. Being able to throw out a secondary strong neutral stab is going to buy us a fair bit more than specifically running eg Psychic to hit fighting-types (ignoring that it also hits Pex).
Agree strongly on this. Terrakion does not work nearly as well despite Rock/Fighting being near-unresisted coverage - simply because Rock/Fighting whiffs into a ton of neutralities, and you dent everything hard but don't actually eliminate many things on the switchin. I'd rather have STAB that's surgically effective against a few key threats than general neutral coverage across the board.
 
How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?
I'm gonna go against the popular opinion here and say that I think the idea that CAP 31 needs STAB on its Diamond Storm is overblown. I think we can absolutely make a Pokemon that uses it as coverage, there are a lot of Pokemon in the metagame that are weak to Rock and locking ourselves into Rock is a limitation, particularly if we want to make a defensive Pokemon. I think offensively, Diamond Storm would definitely appreciate the STAB, but Rock isn't that great defensively. Yeah it resists Heatran's Magma Storm but is weak to its Earth Power, Prologue has Earth Power too, and Epilogue doesn't care about resists because of Tinted Lens. If you look at the Viability Rankings S through A-, the only Pokemon that Rock has a real defensive advantage against are Tornadus, Zapdos, and Alolan Ninetales. Everything else either is neutral to it, carries super-effective coverage for it, or blows it out of the water.

That's why I believe offensive roles appreciate STAB much more, and we can in that scenario use Diamond Storm as its main breaking tool, which would come in handy. However, I do not believe STAB on offensive Diamond Storm is absolutely mandatory. It is again, a good offensive typing, hitting Tornadus, Venomicon, Zapdos, and Astrolotl all super effectively, and I believe this is enough to the point where it can be used as coverage, especially with the chance of it getting a hefty Defense boost.

TL;DR: STAB would lock us into an offensive role, and should not be mandatory, defensive with Rock STAB is a bad idea and offensive with Rock STAB is a good idea but not mandatory.

What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?
Fighting - Hits Ferrothorn, Kartana, Melmetal, and Magnezone, which all resist Diamond Storm. Diamond Storm also hits Tornadus, Venomicon and Zapdos super effectively, which all resist Fighting. This still leaves weaknesses in Ground types, namely Lando and Garchomp, that give it issues.

Flying - Hits the Fighting types that resist Diamond Storm. Rock/Flying is also pretty neutral against most Steel types, Rock is neutral via Heatran and Corviknight whereas Flying is neutral via Ferrothorn and Kartana. Magnezone and Melmetal pose as threats.

Grass - Hits Slowbro, Tapu Fini, and Urshifu, but struggles against Flying types anbd Astrolotl, which Diamond Storm hits, and as such have pretty good synergy. Again, Steel types that actually resist Rock are the threats here.
 

SHSP

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  1. How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?
I wanna echo Astra's post above here: I don't think we're exactly locked into STAB typings with Diamond Storm, as much as it would help with stronger offensive routes. I don't think anyone's a stranger to seeing Rock as a coverage type between the classic EdgeQuake on Grounds and other mons that have been known to run Stone Edge. It's got very few solid resists in the actual meta at the moment at least, and although STAB helps lean into the consistent power of the move, coverage could absolutely be a valid route for us to go with typing. A non-STAB typing for Diamond Storm might allow us to have a better defensive typing, for example.

  1. What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?
Ground jumps to mind immediately: proven use in the past, hits arguably the #1 rock resisting type in Steel. Fire, as well, is a good option for hitting specific steels harder (Ferro, Kartana), as is Fighting. Ausma's suggestion earlier of Electric is also quite fascinating to me, and it's very based in the realities of the metagame than just looking at the type chart: being able to pressure things like Urshifu and Corvi harder while synergizing with Diamond Storm's ability to hit Lando is interesting, as well as how it starts to preserve Steels harder as answers down the line.

  1. Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?
I think this early on we shouldn't be as focused on specific roles through typing, but we will end up with an offensive or defensive lean: that's just the nature of typing and the discussion around it. I don't think we need to exactly limit discussion to "we are going offensive, think about coverage" or "defensive, think about relevant resists," but we do need to keep in mind that both routes are valid and to consider typings with both ideas in mind.
 
  • How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?
Some Roles certainly appreciate STAB more than others, but the roles we were most looking forward to from concept assessment were Tank, Wallbreaker, Bulky Offense, and the like - less so a dedicated Wall, Utility 'mon, or Pivot. The primary roles (and Physical Sweeper too, which is a natural role for a Diamond Storm 'mon to look at but maybe not the direction we want to send 31 in) definitely appreciate STAB more than a utility or pure defensive 'mon would.

I think at least part of the reason folks voted so strongly for Diamond Storm, however, is to have a 'mon that can absolutely smash Torn-T, Zapdos, Astrolotl, and the Books. And running a few very spurious calcs - we'd need ludicrous offensive stats (like 150 attack or more) and maximum investment (252 EVs and Adamant) to reliably net clean OHKOs on these 'mons without STAB and even then we're looking at 50/50s or a need for Sand, Hail, Rocks, or Spikes. Overall, I'd lean towards STAB being essential for this mon. There's also a good argument that it's essential for the concept - a defensive utility 'mon that uses this mostly as coverage for its primary attacks is basically Diancie's niche, as despite her having STAB on Diamond Storm she effectively is running it as "just coverage" to her primary Earth Power + Moon Blast sets. Someone elsewhere (not sure if it was in Concept Assessment or Discord) said we'd want CAP31 to run Diamond Storm on at least 66% of their viable sets to be a success, and having it as non-STAB coverage would make that target much, much harder to hit imo.

  • What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?
Offensively, it's called "EdgeQuake" coverage for a reason. Ground is a natural partner for Rock - the only 'mon in the meta who isn't hit at least neutrally by one of these attacks is Equilibra. More critically, Ground and Rock complement each other so well because Rock usually provides a huge punishment for opponents switching into predicted Earthquakes/High Horsepowers by immediately smiting them with a SE Rock attack (this isn't true for many of the 'meta's best fliers like Lando-T, Gapdos, and Corviknight, but the theory is sound). One the flipside, Ground helps punish some Steels that would eagerly switch in to a rock attack.

Defensively Ground/Rock has trouble though, and there's plenty of other alternatives to take a peek at. Given that we do want to have ways to punish the 'mons that will switch into our crazy Diamonds, it would make sense to consider Fighting and Fire as strong ways to pressure Steels, Grass as a possible way to pressure Ground types and bulky Waters, and Psychic, Fairy, and Flying as ways to pressure Fighting types. Of these I'm least excited about Grass, since most of the Grounds in the meta don't actually fear Grass attacks. Fairy also has the "how are we not just Diancie" issue, and there aren't that many fighting 'mons in the tier anyways - but I don't want to ignore it outright, since it also helps us really put the hurt on dragons.

A final one a few others have mentioned is Electric. On paper this is a weird pairing, since it does nothing to help our problem with 'mons like Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, Equilibra, Magnezone, and Garchomp who will be looking to eagerly switch into our Storm. But it does specifically give us a way to punish bulky Water/Fightings like Urshifu and Argonaught and also hits other bulky waters like the OG Slows and Toxapex pretty hard. I'm not convinced on this since electric also just lacks good physical moves but it is an option worth considering if we want to be good against these 'mons specifically.

I took this question mostly on merits of offensive STAB coverage, but there's also the more complex defensive merits of a type to consider. The primary tension of this project is that for all the reasons I mentioned for Q1, we really really want STAB on Diamond Storm...but, Rock is a horrific defensive typing and having a weakness to Water, Fighting, and Ground makes a 'mon a dog to like 80% of the tier which either are those types or carry those moves as coverage (oh, and a significant amount of the remaining 20% have Grass or Steel moves that we're also weak to :(). There is a reason that the rock types of the meta are all B tier or worse; it's a hard knock life for Rocks. I think we should be much more concerned with what our typing buys us defensively if we are going for Rock STAB. This problem can be ameliorated by our Ability later, but that's a future stage and we should do what we can to keep our abilities open in the typing stage. In rough priority order, things I'm looking and hoping for in defensive typing for CAP 31 are...

  1. An immunity to a type or two, to help us have more switch-in opportunities. Special shout-out if we can have immunity to Ground or Fighting to turn a crippling weakness into a strength.
  2. Retaining or even improving our Flying resistance, to better laugh off BirdSpam.
  3. Retaining or even improving our Fire resistance, to really put the fear of the lord into Heatran and Axolotl.
  4. Avoiding 4x weaknesses if at all possible, especially a 4x weakness to one of those "big 3" (Water, Fighting, and Ground).
  5. A Dark resist, for reasons we'll see in Question 4.
Several aforementioned types hit at least a few of these, and there's a few more that work too. It's probably easier to lay out what types wouldn't work in all truth. But critically, there is no typing that "does all of that", and most typings give us one or two of these things in exchange for taking the rest off the table. For instance, without jumping too much I hope, but Ground/Rock - gives us an Electric Immunity, retains our Fire and Flying resists, but makes us 4x weak to Water and Grass while doing nothing for our Fighting and Ground weaknesses and introduces a slightly unfortunate Ice weakness to boot.

  • Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?
Given what I just wrote I guess my answer should be "Yes", but in spite of all that - I also really want to make sure we leave CAP31 open to inhabiting different roles. I don't see utility in making CAP31 a narrow counter to specifically just Torn-T or the Books; those things are omnipresent in the meta and a reason to want to click Diamond Storm a lot, but we shouldn't pigeonhole ourselves into just targeting those 'mons. Part of this is that it doesn't play up the concept of just enjoying this "Forbidden Fruit" and its very general strength, and part of that is that this is our last CAP of Gen 8, and I'd hate to design a 'mon for this battle only. We also need to accept these two truths:
  • Rock STAB is critical for the concept and to allow us to click Diamond Storm frequently and with confidence without having to do something ridiculous with our stats or ability stage to do it.
  • Rock type is horrific defensively (in general and in the current meta specifically), and no matter what we choose as a secondary typing we are going to have a handful of very prevalent 'mons in the current meta that we instantly die to.

  • Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamond Storm's secondary effect against effectively?
I did a sweep of every mon' ranked B or better that carries physical moves, noting if they carried those moves with STAB/investment, or if they carried them for coverage/uninvested or as pure utility (i.e. moves like Rapid Spin). Weighting STABs more heavily with a 1.5 modifier (since they hit harder), the most prevalent physical attacks in the meta are Fighting and it's not even close - 5 mons carry it as STAB, and it appears as Coverage or Utility on at least 13 mons for a score of 20.5. The next closest is Ground, with a score of 12.5. After that it is a 3-way tie; we see Flying with a score of 9 entirely on the back of STAB - no 'mon carries this as coverage. Also way up there are Bug and Dark, and this is mostly on the back of a lot of 'mons running Knock-Off and U-turn. Very few 'mons carry this as STAB, and even those who do are rarely carrying moves that aren't Knock and Turn (it's basically just Buzzswole's Leech Life). Most fliers hit like a freight train but the +2 is still welcome; the real advantage is in completely shrugging off knocks, turns, and uninvested EQs as well as not worrying as much about stomaching all the Close Combats and Super Powers and Body Presses folks run for coverage in the meta. That's why, going back to Q2, I think it's important that we retain our Flying resistance if we can, avoid going up to 4x weaknesses to Ground and Fighting if we can, and grab a Dark resist if we can.
 

reachzero

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How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?

Speaking strictly competitively, Diamond Storm's floor is a better version of Stone Edge, so it is almost trivially easy to give it to a physical attacker and call it a day. That is, however, not an interesting CAP process. If we want Diamond Storm to be the central piece of what CAP 31 does, it needs to be STAB or it will be clicked only occasionally. As a coverage move, Diamond Storm is adequate but not dramatic. As a primary attack it has real advantages.

Notably, the ability to gain defensive prowess as Diamond Storm is used would make it significantly more difficult for CAP 31 to be revenge killed by the likes of Zeraora and Weavile, which is a reasonably common in-game scenario. I should also point out that Diamond Storm's STAB type is Rock, and The SpD boost from Sand would be especially interesting alongside Diamond Storm boosts, though Sand is a bit more niche than we need to focus on.

The most essential useful quality of Diamond Storm is that it is a direct attack that acts as a boosting move, and therefore loses value as the value of either quality becomes less relevant--on a defensive Pokemon Diamond Storm failing to activate its secondary effect consistently makes it a lot less practically useful than it is for a more offensively-oriented Pokemon that can use Diamond Storm as a primary attack, taking advantage of defensive boosts without *needing* them to be effective.

What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?

For an offensive Pokemon that wants to be spamming a physical Rock attack, the obvious roadblocks are Arghonaut, Revenankh, Equilibra, Ferrothorn, Garchomp and Melmetal. This suggests Flying or Fighting would be good offensive complements, having strong physical options. It is worth noting that Fighting type is often better as coverage than as a full STAB, so of the two I prefer Flying.

Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?

The only way we could end up truly limiting CAP 31's role in this stage is to give it a typing with no or very limited defensive utility--doing so would consign it to being a "glass cannon", which is not impossible for this concept but also probably not what makes the most of this concept or what the metagame would really appreciate. Diamond Storm is a move that gains value the more usable it is as both a direct attack and a boosting move; dramatically decreasing the value of its defensive boosts would be really harmful here.

As a quick example, Rock/Ice would be a disastrous typing not because it has no strong points, but because Zeraora (and many other things) could almost certainly OHKO it right through a defense boost.

Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamond Storm's secondary effect against effectively?

This is kind of a weird question, but think of it this way: if the opponent knows Diamond Storm is coming, you are likely going to see something that resists Diamond Storm (probably something from the list above, plus Landorus-T, Toxapex, Corviknight, etc). If CAP 31 has to switch out, the Diamond Storm boost is irrelevant. Alternatively, avoiding being easily revenge killed by Zeraora and Weavile, as the premier physical revenge killers. This suggests that Electric, Ice, Dark and Fighting are all relevant. Fighting and Ghost are relevant in terms of the Revenankh matchup.

It is practically a guarantee that the defense boosts will not be relevant against every type and in every matchup, but helping against Zeraora and Weavile would indeed be nice.
 

spoo

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More of a general post-

This should be an obvious statement, but because of the low PP of diamond storm we really want to be extracting as much value from it as possible. Worst-case scenarios for us are probably using the move on something like toxapex/slowbro, ferrothorn/especially corv, and the like, getting the +2 boost, but being immediately forced out. Turns like these are huge value losses for us- while we just used a turn spending a limited resource, the opponent now gets to make progress against us and shrugs off the damage with regenerator/leech/etc. Basically, when we use diamond storm and get the boost, we want to be staying in and leveraging it. This is to say that I value typings that aren't dead weight into these matchups. Something like electric is particularly cool for these bulky waters + corv, while fighting has merits against a lot of annoying steel types.

I also don't think rock-type STAB will be crucial for us, either, given that our worst matchups from the outset (granted a lot can be fixed with abil/stats/coverage) probably won't be changed with STAB dstorm anyways, while dstorm's best matchups- mostly flyings, some fires- will be threatened by dstorm regardless of whether it's STAB or not. Artificially making the move less "clickable" by taking away STAB can help with PP issues too, and sort of changes the role of the move from "main attack that also boosts" into "boosting option that also does damage," if that makes sense. Perhaps dstorm will feel less like a part of CAP 31's identity if it isn't STAB, but I could also draw comparisons to mons like astrolotl and venomicon (the list is much bigger than this) that have coverage options as integral parts to their identity. I also quite appreciate that type combinations without rock will have two full typings instead of one to "spend" on beating our bad matchups or on defensive utility.

That said, if we do value STAB dstorm more, I think the best typings are absolutely those that preserve our resists against flying and fire. Eg, flying is a cool secondary typing because it does very well into heatran, astrolotl, and venomicon, three mons that rock's resists already help against. I suppose a lot of this depends on how offensive or defensive we want to lean, too- I mentioned fighting was nice to beat the steels we suck against, but it would also remove rock's resistance to flying, which is a tough tradeoff.

Circling back to leveraging dstorm's boosts, I believe we should especially consider how they will interact with 4x weaknesses. This is partially a point stolen from others I've heard discussing it (soz shsp/quz) but 4x weaknesses are a lot worse on the physical side rather than special, because they invalidate dstorm's boosts much more. A 4x weakness to, say, scald is unideal but acceptable because it will probably be an issue we face no matter what. A 4x weakness to ground or fighting really sucks though, because we can't do the whole "stop lando/zera from rkilling us after the boost" shenanigans. There is some weird mental calculus we need to do when weighing these attributes. I feel like this is a particularly interesting typing stage because there isn't a clear "ideal" typing- or at least, to me- that has every quality we're looking for; sacrifices will ultimately have to be made somewhere.
 
How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?

Going against the grain here, but I think *avoiding* STAB is important if we want to keep the possibility of a primarily defensive CAP31 open - the reason being diamond storm's low PP. All the moveslot compression in the world can't let 31 use DS like toxapex's scald, so if 31 is built to click it too often it will not last through the late game. +2 boost or no +2 boost, making DS the primary offensive option for 31 locks us out of defense.

Offensive roles, meanwhile, could easily take or leave rock STAB - largely depending on the type of offense. A bulky offensive 31 trying to leverage DS for the defensive boost to tank through super effective fighting or ground type checks would love STAB, is it would allow it to DS with more punch and more often, while something frail or some sort of scarfer would probably prefer it as lando-style rock coverage.

Do we value narrowing the playing field with regards to what role CAP 31 will inhabit by giving it a more specified typing?

I think so, yeah. Due to the defensive weaknesses and offensive strengths of rock type, I think that many of the interesting typing combinations we could pick fundamentally constrain our options in some way; reachzero's mentioned the ease with which we could lock ourselves out of defensive roles already, but I think there are a number of possibilities that keep us off offense as well. Steel/bug, for example, while highly valuing DS's ability to firmly threaten fire types, would not have any good way to hit bulky waters or opposing steels between DS and its stabs.

I think we'll all be much happier with the end result if we hash out a basic idea of what roles are realistically available to each type combination we end up considering and discuss them on that basis.

Diamond Storm has a powerful secondary effect that can improve CAP 31's matchup into physical attackers. What are common physical attacking types that CAP 31 can leverage Diamiand Storm's secondary effect against effectively?

I don't have as much to say here, but I strongly support going trying to pick up a flying resist and a dark resist as mentioned by others. A DS user would love to come in on physical Flying types, while taking basically nothing from knock off after boost is delicious.
 
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Wulfanator

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Wanted to write more but am running out of time before I leave for the weekend.

How important is STAB given that we want to utilize Diamond Storm? Would certain roles appreciate STAB on it more than others?

I think that for a damaging move, STAB Diamond Storm is a low priority for us. Rock is a fantastic coverage option and Diamond Storm is far more reliable than Stone Edge making it, arguably, more threatening. I do not think any one role will demand STAB from Diamond Storm. The only thing that will incentivize STAB is if we want Diamond Storm to be its leading offensive characteristic. I think that is a poor decision for a move that is rather weak in comparison to other prominent 8 PP moves.

What types synergize well coverage-wise with Diamond Storm?

Ground and Fighting
are two typings that immediately come to mind given their interactions with Steel and Flying-types. These types appreciate Rock’s ability to threaten Flying-types and reciprocate by threatening Steel’s that want to exploit the Rock resistance.

Fire and Grass have similar interactions in terms of coverage, but it is not nearly as back-and-forth as the previous types. Fire complements Rock by threatening the Steel-types that would otherwise pose a problem, and Grass appreciates Rock’s ability to threaten a Flying-heavy meta. Grass would address Rock’s issues with Ground-types, but many of the relevant Ground-types take neutral damage from Grass. Grass otherwise deals with bulky Water-types that may pose a problem for Diamond Storm. However, Grass + Rock is in the unfortunate position of having to find an addition way to overcome Steels.

Also worth noting, Water and Ghost offer strong neutral coverage when paired with Rock.

Will try to address question 4 at a later point in time.
 
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quziel

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I'd like to make a few arguments.

1) It is easier to wear down Steel types than Bulky Water types.

This is a fairly simple one, but with the exception of Tapu Fini, most of the defensive Water-types in the CAP metagame have fairly insane longevity; Toxapex, Slowbro, Slowking often can last to turn 100 without taking meaningful damage. This is anything but true for Pokemon such as Melmetal, Heatran, and to a lesser extent Ferrothorn, the former of which are some of the more easily chipped defensive mons in the meta. I think it should be obvious that Water-Types and Steel-Types are likely to be some of the best sponges for Diamond Storm, if only because those are the Pokemon that really walled Mega-Diancie. From this I'll also argue that due to the lower longevity, its easier to wear down defensive Steel-types with non-STAB options than it is to wear down defensive Water-types.

2) Typing is the largest source of positive matchups for a given Pokemon.

This one is again fairly self-evident, but for the vast majority of Pokemon, the stuff we beat is tied to our defensive (and offensive) typing. If we are going to be a Rock-type (this is not remotely confirmed, the Steel/Bug in the above post is a good shout), then we should try to preserve as many of the winning matchups that the Rock-typing gives us, that is Flying and Fire mainly. Any typing that drops either of these two should add in a very relevant Offensive matchup, or add a new dimension to our defensive typing (Steel comes to mind).

Based on 1) and 2) I would argue that we should look very carefully at typings that either let us just style on some bulky waters (Ground, Electric, Grass are relevant here), or typings that give us an expanded, or entirely new defensive palette (it may be worth looking for typings that provides immunites/resists to attacks that are otherwise difficult to resist).
 
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