CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[darkie]

This is our Pokémon:

Name: Decentralizer
Description: A Pokemon can check a majority of the current top 5 Pokemon.

Type: Water / Fight
Ability: Unaware
Stats: 105 HP / 110 Atk / 95 Def / 70 SpA / 100 SpD / 75 Spe

For the record, the current top 10 on the CAP server are:

1. Stratagem
2. Revenankh
3. Fidgit
4. Tyranitar
5. Zapdos
6. Syclant
7. Blissey
8. Heatran
9. Scizor
10. Pyroak

An "Attacking Move" is a move that deals significant damage to an opponent. All other moves are considered "Non-Attacking Moves". As a general rule, any move that can be used under Taunt, is considered to be an Attacking Move. However, there are a few exceptional moves that deal a small amount of damage, but their primary battle purpose is based on a secondary move effect, and Are therefore considered Non-Attacking moves. For example, Rapid Spin and Knock Off are considered to be Non-Attacking Moves, even though they can be used under Taunt. The Topic Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered Attacking or Non-Attacking Moves for a given pokemon.

All moves will be categorized as Competitive, Non-Competitive, or Required.

• Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given pokemon. This categorization is applicable depending on the pokemon. Sometimes a move will be competitive on one pokemon and non-competitive for another.
• Required moves are moves that must be included in the final movepool, and are generally not up for discussion. A list of commonly Required moves can be found in X-Act's movepool guide.

Move Discussion Posting Rules

• The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.
  
  
• Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.
  
  
• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.
  
  
• The Topic Leader will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.
  
  
• Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.
  
  
• The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.
  
  
• All moves that are considered Competitive for this pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are miscategorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).
  
  
• If you disagree with the TL's categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.

 

[darkie]

Allowed:
-Cross Chop
-Hammer Arm
-Close Combat
-Brick Break
-Aqua Tail
-Waterfall
-Hydro Pump
-Surf
-Low Kick
-Earthquake
-SuperPower
-Focus Punch
-Ice Beam
-Body Slam
-Rock Slide
-Zen Headbutt
-Blizzard
-Sky Uppercut
-Seismic Toss
-Force Palm
-Drain Punch
-Ice Punch
-Reversal
-Hi Jump Kick
-DynamicPunch
-Double Kick
-Dive
-Water Pulse
-Dig
-Ice Fang
-Icy Wind
-Punishment
-Revenge
-Bite
-Avalanche
-Brine
-Reversal
-Aqua Jet
-Mach Punch
-Ice Shard
-Stone Edge
-ThunderPunch
-Drill Peck




Controversial:


Pending:





Unallowed:
-Hydro Cannon
-Muddy Water
-Rock Blast
-Rock Wrecker
-Head Smash
-Eruption
-Overheat
-Blast Burn
-Fire Blast
-Flamethrower
-Heat Wave
-Lava Plume
-Sacred Fire
-Flare Blitz
-Fire Punch
-Fire Fang
-Flame Wheel
-Blaze Kick
-X-Scissor
-U-turn
-Sucker Punch
-Attack Order
-Crunch
-Shadow Claw
-Payback
-Payback
-Brave Bird
-Wood Hammer
-Seed Bomb
-Needle Arm
-Thunderbolt
-Shock Wave
-Charge Beam
-Spark







bring up more moves

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

I think that Earthquake and Stone Edge/Rock Slide are absolutely necessary for this Pokemon. Stone Edge will damage Zapdos and Togekiss, and Rock Slide should be an option for it's better acurracy. Earthquake is a must for Heatran, and Tyranitar, and does good damage should a Blissey chance staying in

 

[gorm]

Ok should we discuss moves to add or which moves from the list we agree "should certainly be in the movepool"?

Apparently i can't post a "list of moves" so I'm unsure what to do.

Earthquake is a must for Heatran, and Tyranitar, and does good damage should a Blissey chance staying in

we have fighting and water stab, how is it necessary lol

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

• Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.
• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.

I'm slightly confused when looking at this two rules. You can't post a list but you can make an argument about which move should be allowed/not allowed on a Pokemon...wouldn't that come out to be some kind of list? Seem sorta counteractive.

BTW, wouldn't Ice Beam and Blizzard be considered "Required" move since this Pokemon is a Water type?

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Good point, but EQ also hits Electivire Super Effective. Not to mention Heatran isn't the only steel type out there.

 

[darkie]

Don't post stuff like

Okay then.... How bout SUPER POWER!!!
Or....
Earthquake
Endeavor
And as I mentioned earlier, Focus Punch
Shadow Claw
Sucker Punch
Grass Knot
Avalanche
It'd be cool if this guy got DRAGON CLAW

Basically, I'm just listing more possible attacks. :P

Something this is alright:

How about Low Kick? Heavy damage on most of it's targets, and nearly matches Close Combat in power with most of it's targets (save Jirachi, but it's kinda dumb to stay in on it, for fear of Psychic/Zen Headbutt).

Anyway, I'm against more than one priority move. This would allow it to run a -speed nature, and go mixed. I think we should force it to go physical. Besides, Aqua Jet takes care of Fidgit and Stratagem, while Low Kick takes care of things like Metagross, Tyranitar (!!), Heatran (!!), and possibly Scizor. It would be super-effective against Blissey, but it's full of hot air and only about 81 lbs.

 

[gorm]

you read my mind GT lol.. i guess we have to list stuff in a paragraph or something which seems kind of silly.. but Ill bite!

first off i think from darkie's list waterfall, dive, surf, brick break, Focus Punch should be sure things, all of them are staples on fight/water pokemon.

Ice Punch seems like an obvious stylistic/coverage based choice. It isn't gamebreaking as has been discussed in the other topic, and allows celebi/zapdos to remain "decent checks." Stone edge is problematic (a scarf set would be especially annoying with SE) since it means no flying type has consistent switches on this guy except possibly skarm, all the others get pegged by stone edge/stab waterfall. I'd rather Rock slide. Ice Beam could be considered as all waters get it but seems like a superfluous move.

Thunderpunch is perhaps more controversial than ice punch since it allows us to beat gyarados (a good check, resisting both stabs+ intimidate) handily. this is dependant on whether we get stone edge.

Aqua Jet+Mach Punch should be considered perhaps seperately but having both doesn't seem too difficult to deal with. Sucker Punch is also worth considering considering it's a popular Pt tutor

 

[tennisace]

Rock Wrecker and Head Smash what? Definate NO, especially because they don't get STAB and they're so exclusive. Earthquake should be allowed because it's a TM, and really it doesn't get hit anything that the STABs don't already. It would be an inferior option. Also, lol Electrivire. Back up your claims with some usage stats please. Can we get rid of some other inferior options too and just approve them? I'm talking about: Reversal, Drain Punch, DynamicPunch, Sky Uppercut, Seismic Toss, Double Kick, Dive, Hydro Cannon, Muddy Water, and Rock Blast. They all either have power or accuracy issues or a negative side effect, which make them way less viable. All the controversial are fine with me.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Okay...well I think we should allow CAP6 to learn these three moves: Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, and Shadow Claw. Since it already have Unaware, Salamence and Gyarados can't increase their attack while CAP6 is in they're face. With that mind you might as well finish them off with a well served Ice/Thunder punch to the face. Both punches have been proved to be not powerful enough to harm potent counter/checks in the long run.

Shadow Claw usefulness stems from allowing CAP6 to deal some significance damage to Revenankh who could possibly stall you with Rest and bulk. Shadow Claw also allow it to do some decent towards Cressy, Starmie, and Celebi but don't worry about them, they're sturdy enough to handle the pressure and OHKO it before anything bad happens to them. Drill Peck and/or Brave Bird are worthy alternative to Shadow Claw but it would force people to chose Wyverii's art to make sense of them, which isn't fair towards the other artist.

As for unallowed moves, I say no Fire type moves. Originally I was for Fire Punch and Fire Blast but now I think they give CAP6 too much type coverage for one moveslot and it takes out too many potent counters/checks for my taste.

 

[gorm]

isn't hydro cannon an "exclusive", like muddy water? rock blast is kind of inferior but it's only pure rock types/octillery/wormadam that get it, i'd be against. shadow claw is interesting but kind of design dependant, and is really only for revenankh, against whom i'd rather just use stab water attacks waterfall = (6/7)*shadow claw

any interest in sucker punch for this guy?

glad you support boltbeam punch gt

 

[tennisace]

I don't support any fire moves whatsoever, they're very tacked on and coverage can be obtained elsewhere. That said, I'm fine with the boltbeam punches, we can still find good checks with or without them (How bout Bronzong?)

Sucker Punch gets a no from me. It'll get plenty of priority anyway, so what would you use it for, Azelf? That's about it.

 

[Hyra]

I support all of the Ice and Rock moves, ,excluding Rock Wrecker and Head Smash. I don't really see them being overpowering in anyway, and almost all Water or Fighting types get them, respectively (and the ones that don't aren't in OU).

I would like to say no to Mach Punch and Aqua Jet. I don't really see them helping accomplish the goal of decentralizer, besides not having to take a hit from Stratagem. These could lead to it being too strong and not accomplishing its goal at all.

 

[tennisace]

Head Smash could be very overpowering. Think of it this way: Zapdos tries to come in, dies, you die, and Scizor gets a free switch in and sweep. It's way overpowered and is only on 3 Pokemon, all STAB. Rock Wrecker won't get used no matter what, but definite NO on Head Smash.

 

[DougJustDoug]

This is a discussion, not a voting thread. No one wants to read a list of moves. No one wants to read a list of arguments by you. Past CAP movepool threads have been near-worthless because the thread gets spammed up with lists and no one is actually DISCUSSING ANYTHING. Everyone scrolls to the bottom of the thread, and then posts their own list. That isn't a discussion -- that's a multi-choice vote.

So, we're trying to force a legitimate discussion by banning posts with lists of moves. The only list that should be in this thread is in the OP.

If you want a move removed, then argue for it to be removed. If you want a move added, then argue for it to be added. If you want to argue about a few moves, then go ahead. But, if your argument starts looking like a list -- then expect it to be deleted. Yes, a "few" moves is technically a list -- but don't be a pedantic shithead about the definition of the word "list". If you feel strongly about multiple moves, then constrain yourself to the moves that are most important to you. Every move cannot be so damn important that you have to argue about every single one of them.

If you agree with the placement of a move in the OP, then you don't need to post ANYTHING about that move. If you like a move in the OP, and then counter arguments cause the TL to recategorize it -- THEN you argue about the recategorization. If several others follow suit -- then it will become a Controversial move and will be voted on.

We are trying to get rid of all the unnecessary bandwagon discussion and get to discussing the controversial stuff. Since there are lots of moves to potentially discuss, we have to have some way to focus the discussion. Please do your best to help in this regard.

 

[gorm]

ok doug thanks for clarifying. i agree that "no one wants to read a bunch of lists"

i agree with a ban on fire moves tennis. I'm still iffy on stone edge can we bump that down to controversial =\

I'm against ice shard, that seems like "too much good priority" especially because ice/fight/water is unresisted =\


thunder/ice fang seem like design dependant things, we're already allowing boltbeam punch so these are a nonissue competititvely.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

shadow claw is interesting but kind of design dependent, and is really only for revenankh, against whom I'd rather just use stab water attacks waterfall = (6/7)*shadow claw

Shadow Claw isn't totally design dependent as it's in-game description describe as something that doesn't necessary need claws. I was going to suggest Drill Peck and Brave Bird since it allow it to hit Pyroak, Revvy, Celebi and some others for super effective, but that seem more design dependent as it force everyone to vote for Wyverii's artwork. That doesn't seem fair towards other artist now.

 

[gorm]

I'd be against those actually. flying/fighting is great coverage paired with water, and makes celebi shakier. i'd also be 100% any decent flying attack with stone edge+stabs. i feel like what we have right now is "close to fine"

 

[tennisace]

Concurring with Gorm, I think all rock moves should be bumped down to controversial if this is getting Ice moves anyway. This will force it to run Thunderpunch if it wants to beat Gyarados, which is fine with me because then it can't run an Ice move or a Support/Healing move, making it less effective.

 

[gorm]

tbh i don't really have a problem with unstab rock slide when it's "slow" without a speed boosting move

 

[armogohma]

Don't forget about punishment. It works together excelently with its ablility.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I know that Waters usually get Ice moves, and Fighting normally gets Rock moves. But, I don't think we should give this BOTH good physical Ice and Rock moves. It just seems like too much against potential Flying and Grass checks.

Personally, I would prefer to see it get Ice Beam, to satisfy the obligatory "Water pokemon gets an Ice move" -- but Ice Punch should be disallowed. Then we can give it a decent physical Rock move. Since the metagame is so centered on Rock-resistant pokemon, we can give it Stone Edge and Rock Slide without fear of having abusive coverage. Yes, Stone Edge is going to put a big dent in several checks, but I think we should see how it plays before assuming it would be too much. I can envision Stone Edge being far less scary than it might seem from a theorymon standpoint, if only because the metagame is so well-equipped to handle Rock damage.

 

[gorm]

I know that Waters usually get Ice moves, and Fighting normally gets Rock moves. But, I don't think we should give this BOTH good physical Ice and Rock moves. It just seems like too much against potential Flying and Grass checks.

heh that's what i wanted to say but wasn't smart enough to figure out =)

"rock move support"

well i guess here we have to decide if ice or rock [heh pokemon is all about drugs][Ice Punch or Stone Edgecomplements water/fight stab better. as of right now, rock seems the best due to the weighted stats that seem to point towards rock being "better" due to pyrock, zapdos, gyarados.

this leaves celebi and skarm alone as "good checks," (and opens up a toxicroak niche!) so I'm against Rock. Ice allows you to "beat mence" (as does stone edge), "hurt celebi" (but still lose to it) and "flygon" (who doenst even resist it's stabs and is barely used). it beats grass types and some flyers, but rock is still overall the "better stab" I'd say, and i feel like it might be a little "too much"

Im also starting to doubt why we need thunderpunch... it will allow gyarados to become another viable check to Ice/Water/Fight. If we Boost Gyara's usage its bound to hinder 4/5 of the top 5 mons =) we can still beat other bulky waters with toxic ^_^

but that's another topic :O

 

[Goodbar]

I really don't think any of the moves being considered are controversial at all, including stone edge, I don't see the worry at all here, can anyone explain to me why? Zapdos is hardly going to suffer from it, gyarados might but we have already allowed thunderpunch, i guess it hurts pyroak a little though... Not too fond of the flying suggestions out there beyond aerial ace. I think there's little however on the attacking side of things that's going to make this mon overpowered though.

Also remember that this is a discussion about what moves will be allowed, not in the final movepool necessarily, so theres no point in not allowing moves that arent very useful unless they have little justification of being there...

 

[gorm]

Zapdos is hardly going to suffer from it, gyarados might but we have already allowed thunderpunch,

scarf sets beat zapdos with sr, I'm arguing against T-Punch :]

i think we need to use discretion determining moves we're gonna vote on personally. it's more effecient to weed stuff out now =\ it's annoying for voters to have to read through a ton of stuff that might potentially not be as good for us.

I'm not trying to restrict choice or anything, i'm saying this discussion is really important =)