Hmm between the speed and attack, will we be seeing a lot of scarfed new mons? Seems like a poor choice to me =/. But I see your point with being more efficient heh, but I don't think stuff should be unallowed for being useless if its flavorable (meaning wrong place of discussion for them lol)
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CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter darkie
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Gorm, why are you so against Ice Shard on Watermon? Is this guy even going to be USING Aqua Jet / Mach Punch? Not likely considering that they would only be good against Pokemon that are A.) Faster than him. and B.) Likely to be able to do good damage against him if he didn't attack first.
Very few Pokemon fit into those categories... (granted, it might use Aqua Jet to counter Strategem.. but you could EV it to easily take a Giga Drain) so unless you think that Energy Ball Ninetales is going to make a surge into OU anytime soon. If you look at what it's going to be attacking, it simply isn't going to be using these moves at all... which kind of makes them not_so_good moves.
However, if you EV it correctly, and give it Ice Shard, suddenly it becomes a fabulous check to Salamence as well! Ice Shard could also be its only form of Physical Ice... or you could give it both Ice Shard / Punch considering that without STAB it's unlikely to carry both in the same set.
I just don't think that it will actually use either Mach Punch or Aqua Jet (considering neither are all that powerful and don't even have Technician to boost them).
Very few Pokemon fit into those categories... (granted, it might use Aqua Jet to counter Strategem.. but you could EV it to easily take a Giga Drain) so unless you think that Energy Ball Ninetales is going to make a surge into OU anytime soon. If you look at what it's going to be attacking, it simply isn't going to be using these moves at all... which kind of makes them not_so_good moves.
However, if you EV it correctly, and give it Ice Shard, suddenly it becomes a fabulous check to Salamence as well! Ice Shard could also be its only form of Physical Ice... or you could give it both Ice Shard / Punch considering that without STAB it's unlikely to carry both in the same set.
I just don't think that it will actually use either Mach Punch or Aqua Jet (considering neither are all that powerful and don't even have Technician to boost them).
Why can't it just have both Ice Shard and Ice Punch? Ice Punch is a tutor move so it's not taking up precious movepool space. Personally, I prefer Ice Punch over Ice Shard because Ice Punch is guaranteed to OHKO on the winged beast oppese to 2HKOing it with Ice Shard.
RE: DougJustDoug
I support both Ice and Rock moves on this pokemon simultaneously for several reasons. In fact, there's even a precedent for them: Poliwrath. This strikes me as a kind of OU edition of Poliwrath.
Poliwrath, for the record, gets only Rock Slide and Ice Punch. In it's relevant metagame (UU), even with these moves it cannot solidly beat its grass and flying counters without using a Bulk Up or Belly Drum first. Meganium, Venusaur, and Vileplume can all stave it off. Altaria is pretty much the lone exception, and even it can try a Toxic + Roost strategy on bulkier versions.
It is my contention that Tangrowth and Celebi act as the OU counterparts of their UU versions. They can easily stave off the UnSTABBed attacks with mediocre BP and get a KO sooner. They have more trouble with a Bulk-Up type set, but not so much that they cease to be reliable switch-ins.
As far as Rock Slide, Poliwrath almost never uses it. This is because the primary Flying threats in UU are neutral to Fighting, and thus not particularly fond of coming into Poliwrath on a Substitute. Focus Punch does more damage to them than SE Rock Slide. It is the same with Electric Pokemon really, where SubPunch is a decent alternative to Earthquake.
I do submit that Stone Edge has the potential to be problematic on a Bulk Up set. In which case Gyarados' Intimidate becomes moot, and it will be unable to reasonably expect a KO. Stone Edge does of course have it's low accuracy and low PP qualities to dissuade it from use. I say it should be kept.
However, Ice Punch and Rock Slide co-existing on a Water/Fighting pokemon has already proven not to be unbalancing to the relevant tier. I don't imagine in a tier crawling with high-defense Fighting neutral Steels that the combination will cause any undue strife.
Of the Controversial and Pending moves, I lend my support (Allowed) behind:
Rock Slide and Stone Edge for reasons listed above.
I would also like to move Thunderpunch down from Allowed to Controversial. Unlike Ice Punch, which applies to an attack type most water pokemon get and most Grass and Flying types assume Water Pokemon may carry, Thunderpunch helps it defeat pokemon it would otherwise have no explicit advantage over, such as other Bulky Waters. Effectively it makes it a counter against itself.
Bulk Up (there is no reason to believe this will lack Bulk Up) + Thunderpunch removes any chance any Bulky Water could stand against it. Only Suicune, which could Roar it away, stands a chance against a CAP6 with a Bulk Up + Thunderpunch set.
Finally, I believe Sucker Punch should be moved to Unallowed. a Fighting/Dark kind of priority coverage has already proven potent with Revenankh, and Sucker Punch also plays extremely well on a Bulk Up set. Too well, in my opinion, because it eliminates faster offensive Psychic counters.
I support both Ice and Rock moves on this pokemon simultaneously for several reasons. In fact, there's even a precedent for them: Poliwrath. This strikes me as a kind of OU edition of Poliwrath.
Poliwrath, for the record, gets only Rock Slide and Ice Punch. In it's relevant metagame (UU), even with these moves it cannot solidly beat its grass and flying counters without using a Bulk Up or Belly Drum first. Meganium, Venusaur, and Vileplume can all stave it off. Altaria is pretty much the lone exception, and even it can try a Toxic + Roost strategy on bulkier versions.
It is my contention that Tangrowth and Celebi act as the OU counterparts of their UU versions. They can easily stave off the UnSTABBed attacks with mediocre BP and get a KO sooner. They have more trouble with a Bulk-Up type set, but not so much that they cease to be reliable switch-ins.
As far as Rock Slide, Poliwrath almost never uses it. This is because the primary Flying threats in UU are neutral to Fighting, and thus not particularly fond of coming into Poliwrath on a Substitute. Focus Punch does more damage to them than SE Rock Slide. It is the same with Electric Pokemon really, where SubPunch is a decent alternative to Earthquake.
I do submit that Stone Edge has the potential to be problematic on a Bulk Up set. In which case Gyarados' Intimidate becomes moot, and it will be unable to reasonably expect a KO. Stone Edge does of course have it's low accuracy and low PP qualities to dissuade it from use. I say it should be kept.
However, Ice Punch and Rock Slide co-existing on a Water/Fighting pokemon has already proven not to be unbalancing to the relevant tier. I don't imagine in a tier crawling with high-defense Fighting neutral Steels that the combination will cause any undue strife.
Of the Controversial and Pending moves, I lend my support (Allowed) behind:
Rock Slide and Stone Edge for reasons listed above.
I would also like to move Thunderpunch down from Allowed to Controversial. Unlike Ice Punch, which applies to an attack type most water pokemon get and most Grass and Flying types assume Water Pokemon may carry, Thunderpunch helps it defeat pokemon it would otherwise have no explicit advantage over, such as other Bulky Waters. Effectively it makes it a counter against itself.
Bulk Up (there is no reason to believe this will lack Bulk Up) + Thunderpunch removes any chance any Bulky Water could stand against it. Only Suicune, which could Roar it away, stands a chance against a CAP6 with a Bulk Up + Thunderpunch set.
Finally, I believe Sucker Punch should be moved to Unallowed. a Fighting/Dark kind of priority coverage has already proven potent with Revenankh, and Sucker Punch also plays extremely well on a Bulk Up set. Too well, in my opinion, because it eliminates faster offensive Psychic counters.
I'm reappealing for consideration of the following moves:
Body Slam
Drill Peck / Brave Bird
Body Slam has horrible coverage and no STAB but a nice paralysis bonus that can cripple fast things like Stratagem.
Drill Peck / Brave Bird depends on the artwork, but if it's allowed it can be a good answer to Revenankh.
Body Slam
Drill Peck / Brave Bird
Body Slam has horrible coverage and no STAB but a nice paralysis bonus that can cripple fast things like Stratagem.
Drill Peck / Brave Bird depends on the artwork, but if it's allowed it can be a good answer to Revenankh.
i don't see how the uu metagame factors into this. cap is significantly differnt than smogon uu. if we use the top 10 list as a basis, which is kind of the goal, decent attack+good stab+that kind of coverage dominates, period. paired with bulk up that just seems "too scary".
flying is also interesting, with ice and flying as main support you're still solidly stoped by gyarados who also helps mow down a good deal of the top 5. I'm surprised zapdos is such a problem with pyroak xD
flying is also interesting, with ice and flying as main support you're still solidly stoped by gyarados who also helps mow down a good deal of the top 5. I'm surprised zapdos is such a problem with pyroak xD
I mentioned the UU metagame only in the context of a pokemon that happens to share the same type and the same core movepool. Poliwrath landed 27th in September, 26th in October, and 31st in Usages in November. Not in the upper ranks of usage, but fairly common enough. Hypnosis' accuracy drop is what gave him a big hit, I imagine.
Point is, most of the potential counters to this do not reside in the Top 10. Pyroak and Zapdos are probably the only two who put up a fight.
Bronzong (Restalk)
Metagross (Thunderpunch and Grass Knot/Psychic variants especially)
Skarmory (barring Focus Punch, which can nail it during Roost)
Starmie/Slowbro
Suicune
Shaymin(Land Forme)
Jirachi
Exeggutor
Although Tangrowth/Eggy assume Ice Punch, not Ice Beam.
Faster Bulky Waters (Blastoise, Milotic) with Toxic could also get a drop on it.
Totally agree with everything said in this post.
I don't see why rock moves are controversial but Thunder Punch is ok. What does an extra rock moves allow Water-mon to beat that STAB water and Fight don't already accomplish? Pretty much only Flying types (and Pyroak). But oh wait, Ice Punch (hits almost every single OU Flying type for SE damage) and Thunder Punch (for Gyarados) already shit on these pokemon anyway. Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, and Rock Slide all have the same base attack too (75). What's the harm in adding Rock Slide if Ice Punch and Thunder Punch are already allowed moves? Stone Edge isn't so bad either when you consider it has low PP and only 80% acc.
I'm more interested in moving down Thunder Punch to controversial so bulky waters provide a nice overall check to Water-mon. Remember, the purpose of Water-mon is to decentralize the metagame, not recentralize it around itself (no water pokes are in the top 10 for CAP.)
Finally, I also am for the addition of practically ANY physical Flying or Psychic move on Water-mon so he can at least do something Bulk-Up Revenankh
Unaware and its own ability to use Bulk-Up pretty much show Revenankh the door, unless Rev starts carrying around Thunderpunch, which undermines the traditional Bulk Up/Rest w Shed Skin set.
I sort of oppose Flying/Psychic moves here on principle, if only because it makes mirror matches more hazardous (I'm talking things like Drill Peck, not the fairly innocuous Aerial Ace). If the stork design wins I'll go for it, but otherwise I'm trending towards no. Although, it isn't as if Zen Headbutt is going to unbalance much, Psychic has pretty poor coverage, and is fairly worthless unSTABbed.
As far as Brave Bird, I'm opposed. It not only makes mirror matches hell, it also gives it a move that destroys the pretense of any Grass counter. Adamant Max Attack Choice Banded Brave Bird does 86-101% damage on 252/0 Celebi.
Hmm...
I second Body Slam(X-Act), Drill Peck(X-Act) and Zen Headbutt for Controversial.
Also, it would be really helpful if I could get some seconds or thirds in support of Double Kick. Even with no investment or nature each attack does 30-36% damage to the Sub-CM Stratagem set, allowing you to 2HKO it even if you switch in on Substitute. If it Subs when at 50% HP or below, it gets KO'd.
I think that we shouldn't have thunderpunch on this thing. Realistically, it's not going to be using it on anything except Gyarados and I don't see anythingwrong with letting that stay as something of a counter, particularly if we're letting ice and rock moves in.
Also, I have a hard time seeing any water type using thunderpunch. The Ludicolo line is the only one that gets it at the moment.
Also, I have a hard time seeing any water type using thunderpunch. The Ludicolo line is the only one that gets it at the moment.
What's this sudden change of heart towards Thunder Punch? It become from 100% support for it to 50/50 I'm iffy about it in under a day. Thunder Punch provides a more reliable way of handling Flying type Pokemon, compared to Stone Edge's 64% chance of doing something. They're plenty still some decent Bulky Water counters left to cover the hole TP left (When did every Bulky water pokemon became it's checks, I only remember Starmie and Suicune)
How is Gyarados suddenly become a potent counter/check for this damn thing anyway? What is that serpent going to do it that's threatening, Earthquake it to death? You already ignore his boost via DD, may as well put the final nail into it's coffin by TP'ing it ugly ass back to the bottom of the sea.
How is Gyarados suddenly become a potent counter/check for this damn thing anyway? What is that serpent going to do it that's threatening, Earthquake it to death? You already ignore his boost via DD, may as well put the final nail into it's coffin by TP'ing it ugly ass back to the bottom of the sea.
I'm still in favour of keeping Thunderpunch "Allowed". I'm surprised it might be heading into controversial territory. Why do we want bulky waters to counter CAP6? Without Fire attacks it already struggles to quickly knock over most of the popular Steel types due to their duel typing, and if we downgrade to Ice Shard then Grass types with fair recovery become quite a drag as well. Do we really need this guy to struggle against so many typings?
Thunderpunch does not offer an awful lot of coverage - it gives him a little more bite against Flying and Water - it keeps CAP6 from being nerfed by too many types, and, as Gothic Togekiss noted, it's far more accurate than the Rock attacks suggested.
I also agree that with Gyarados so dependent on boosting most of the time, it makes sense that this Unaware Pokemon should be able to deal with him swiftly.
Thunderpunch does not offer an awful lot of coverage - it gives him a little more bite against Flying and Water - it keeps CAP6 from being nerfed by too many types, and, as Gothic Togekiss noted, it's far more accurate than the Rock attacks suggested.
I also agree that with Gyarados so dependent on boosting most of the time, it makes sense that this Unaware Pokemon should be able to deal with him swiftly.
Because our concept was Decentralizer, not "Recentalize the metagame around CAP6, who has no hard counters at all."
But then, again, which bulky Waters actually seriously counter him as it is? Certainly not Gyarados.
Gyarados with Taunt and Bounce will stop this cold without Thunderpunch or HP Elec. Additionally, Intimidate still works through Unaware. Even without Bounce, it still has Earthquake for neutral damage, and Unaware simply means CAP6 isn't affected by boosts. It can Dragon Dance perfectly well and still have the boosts on the next opponent.
Stone Edge might make life difficult for Gyara, I suppose, but that's about the only move.
Toxic Blastoise/Tentacrue/Milotic can ruin it with status while it is incapable of doing much but 3HKO. Blastoise sets it on Toxic course, anyway, it can't do much back. Milotic on the other hand can simply Recover in its face.
Slowbro can destroy it with Psychic. Starmie with Thunderbolt.
Swampert and Suicune can Roar it out if they switch in quickly.
So to answer your question: Most of the bulky waters draw or counter.
Heracross doesn't have any hard counters. Salamence doesn't have any hard counters. You don't need hard counters to stop a Pokemon. We already have a decent amount of checks and counters for this guy, what more do you need?
Starmie~ Faster and I be damned if you stay in on it and try to sock it with TP after using your free turn to Bulk Up.
Slowbro~ Slower but more defensive sturdy and can potentially OHKO you with stabbed Psychic attack. Without an BU TP is a 3HKO at best and with BU you still only have a 30.51% chance of 2HKO it.
Suicune~Can shrug off the strongest of moves from CAP6 and roar away it's stat boosts. HP Electric version can go toe to toe with it and probably win.
Revenankh vis-a-vis Heracross, Gliscor for all but the odd SD Facade set @ Burn Orb. And even then a faster Gliscor OHKOs with Aerial Ace.
Suicune stops the overwhelming majority of Salamence cold.
Choice Band Thunderpunch. No setup turn, just flat out offense. Perfectly viable set too, especially if this gets Close Combat.
I'd rather not turn this into the Water/Fighting edition of Aggron.
Okay they're some pretty damn sturdy counters for them, that doesn't make them any "harder" than the rest of the counters/checks they have. Not everything needs some 100% counter to be balanced.
Like you said before, Stone Edge makes it difficult for Gyarados to actually counter it. I wonder why Gyarados was even suggested to be a check for it since Stone Edge make it a pretty shaky pokemon to rely on.
If CAP6 is running max speed, it could just Taunt them before they could use Toxic. Shuts down majority of their sets with the exception to HP Electric/Choice variation. Also wouldn't a CB Cross Chop/Close Combat be a 2HKO on both Blastoise and Milotic anyway so I don't see why getting rid of Thunder Punch matters much. Earthquake does more damage to Steel type then any of it's Fighting moves, so Earthquake variations can maul Tentacruel as well.
I give you these two. Suicune can shrug off the effect of TP and Swampert is immune to it and can probably take a Cross Chop or whatever from CAP6 before being roared out.
But being allowed moves doesn't mean they have to be in the final movepool, just that they can. What if (IF) Wyverii's stork wins, and then people start derailing the movepool thread saying that "Brave Bird is too overpowered blahblahblah"? Better to discuss it now!
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