CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[tennisace]

So whats the big deal with adding a rock move exactly? CAP6 getting too much coverage? I don't see how Ice/Electric/Rock/Fight is any better than Ice/Electric/Water/Fight. Flyers and Fire pokemon are getting destroyed either way.

With Ice Punch and Thunderpunch it costs it a moveslot. It can do both with Rock Slide.

And why do people think of Stone Edge is such a controversial move? It has low PP, gets stalled out with Roost, and misses 20% of the time. Yeah it crits, but only 16% of the time (ie your more like to miss)

I'm more worried about the switch in, where it 2hko's iirc.

Also, Thunderpunch deals with every bulky water except Ludicolo and Lanturn. If you use that, you can't deal with Celebi.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

They're pending because no one has talked about them or disputed their position.

Okay then I say we should move Blizzard, Sky Uppercut, and Force Palm into the allowed list. Almost every Pokemon get's Ice Beam/Blizzard so why not CAP6. Sky Uppercut for a more reliable stab move than Cross Chop for defensive sets and Force Palm because of it's paralysis effect.

 

[Naxte]

I already did propose it multiple times, it's currently allowed unless you want to change it (which I will fight against.)

Anyway, I'm going to have to argue again against Stone Edge, if not Rock Slide along with it. I'm starting to think Gyarados being a solid counter is the best thing for the metagame. Think about it, if everyone is either running Gyarados or CAP 6, then usage of Stratagem, Fidgit, and Tyranitar will decrease. This may cause Zapdos usage to rise a lot, but then usage of Stratagem and Tyranitar will proportionally increase again, and we'll be left with a balanced metagame really. Where does Revenankh fit into this? The increased usage of Zapdos and Gyarados will knock it's usage down quite a bit, which is good because at the moment it's the biggest threat in the metagame in my opinion, and has been since we made it, completely disregarding the nerf we gave it.

Now how does this deal with rock moves on CAP 6? Well, giving it the ability to beat Gyarados and Zapdos at the same time will force Celebi to be the main counter. Ice Punch will still deal with Zapdos, Salamence, and Celebi, but won't do much to Gyarados, forcing it to run Thunderpunch and waste a slot better used for a support move of some sort, be it status or healing. I don't mind Ice moves for this reason, but Rock moves are a no-no.

Don't really get the reasoning with Gyarados here. Even without Stone Edge, the threat of ThunderPunch should keep in from switching in. In addition to that, CAP6 resists Waterfall, Ice Fang and Stone Edge, and stops Dragon Dancing (for attack), leaving Gyarados with not many options: either go with a gimmicky Bounce-set, or with Earthquake. So, I don't see why anyone would attempt to use Gyarados as a CAP6-counter, even if it doesn't get Stone Edge: It can still be threatened by ThunderPunch, and there are much better options than a Gyarados that while not being threatened by CAP6's other moves, can't do much in return, such as Zapdos, which itself can stall out Stone Edge's four uses with Roost and then finish it off. Thus, I would support Stone Edge.

 

[tennisace]

Don't really get the reasoning with Gyarados here. Even without Stone Edge, the threat of ThunderPunch should keep in from switching in. In addition to that, CAP6 resists Waterfall, Ice Fang and Stone Edge, and stops Dragon Dancing (for attack), leaving Gyarados with not many options: either go with a gimmicky Bounce-set, or with Earthquake. So, I don't see why anyone would attempt to use Gyarados as a CAP6-counter, even if it doesn't get Stone Edge: It can still be threatened by ThunderPunch, and there are much better options than Gyarados, which can't do much in return to CAP 6, such as Zapdos, which itself can stall out Stone Edge's four uses with Roost and then finish it off. Thus, I would support Stone Edge.

The reasoning is Intimidate, plus the threat of Earthquake. In order for it to run Thunderpunch, CAP 6 would have to give up another slot really.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I'm for the addition of Rock Slide to the allowed movepool and to move Thunder Punch to controversial.

I would also like to see Stone Edge move to allowed IF Thunder Punch and Ice Punch are allowed as well.

Or we could just move Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Stone Edge, and Rock Slide to allowed and be done with this. There...everyone get's what they want for Chirstmas.

Which ones exactly?

Do I really need to answer this question? This is starting to look like an all or nothing deal between Thunder Punch and these damn Bulky waters. Either you have Thunder Punch and make people cry over the death of their precious bulky water or don't and get caught into this cycle of "I get cock blocked by my own kind" deal ever other Water pokemon sterotypical have to deal with. If they're a middle ground between this I like to hear it.

 

[Petope]

I would like Punnishment to be on allowed because it fits really well with the abillity but you cant sweep the good Psychic counters because of the low BP. It would be its only SE move on Ghost and Psychic types as moves like X-scissor and Sucker Punch is unallowed. (as I think they should)

I also thinks that Drain Punch should be allowed. It has bad PP and low BP so it shouldn't be to overpowering at all. It could be a good alternative (as others have alredy said) combine FightingSTAB and recovery move.

Just some thoughts:
If Drillpeck is an option because of Wyverii's art, then I will suggest (out of the blue) Woodhammer that I think could fit Atyroki's art. Because I dont (at least not right now) like Thunder Punch on CAP6, but I still thinks it should be able to counter bulky watermons. Woodhammer would still leave Gyarados and Tentacruel alone. And grass is such a bad attacking move overall that it main purpose whould be to take out other watermons (as water stab alredy takes care of rock n ground).
This maybe is a really bad idé, iam not sure because iam pretty tired. But I thought it could be disscussed atleast.

 

[jagged_angel]

Just some thoughts:
If Drillpeck is an option because of Wyverii's art, then I will suggest (out of the blue) Woodhammer that I think could fit Atyroki's art.

I don't think this is necessary as I am all for Thunderpunch making the allowed moves list but if Thunderpunch was not allowed then Wood Hammer or Needle Arm would be quite handy for Water coverage. The only trouble is both names are so full of flavour that most people would be uncomfortable about adding them. If anything they should go on the contraversial list.

 

[tennisace]

Just some thoughts:
If Drillpeck is an option because of Wyverii's art, then I will suggest (out of the blue) Woodhammer that I think could fit Atyroki's art. Because I dont (at least not right now) like Thunder Punch on CAP6, but I still thinks it should be able to counter bulky watermons. Woodhammer would still leave Gyarados and Tentacruel alone. And grass is such a bad attacking move overall that it main purpose whould be to take out other watermons (as water stab alredy takes care of rock n ground).
This maybe is a really bad idé, iam not sure because iam pretty tired. But I thought it could be disscussed atleast.

No. First off, competitive moves shouldn't be chosen because "the art supports it". This is a comptitive project, and as much as people don't want to admit it, art is secondary to any competitive part. Besides that, it's way too powerful. I think we should just screw Thunderpunch, but nobody would go for that, and its only 75 base power.

 

[Lawman]

If we were going to allow a Grass move, Power Whip would be able to fit flavor wise on several of the submissions.

 

[Naxte]

The reasoning is Intimidate, plus the threat of Earthquake. In order for it to run Thunderpunch, CAP 6 would have to give up another slot really.

..Which it can do. While not being its best option, it's usable, and will hit Gyarados for massive damage. Meanwhile, all Gyarados can do is Earthquake it, whereas Pokemon like Celebi, Jirachi, Zapdos, Starmie, Metagross, Brozong, Azelf, and Rotom-A can do more to CAP6. So, I don't see the reason to switch in a Gyarados to it, risking the possibility of it getting KO'd by Thunderpunch and only being able to Earthquake in return, when there are many options for Pokemon that can do more to it. Intimidate is nice, and something that I admitably didn't consider, but Gyarados still wouldn't be something that I would switch into it, when there are plenty of other options that can do more to it. Yes, Gyarados usually would be able to do the job without Stone Edge, but it would hardly if ever be used to do so, due to many better options existing.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

The reasoning is Intimidate, plus the threat of Earthquake. In order for it to run Thunderpunch, CAP 6 would have to give up another slot really.

Using the most used Gyarados set, let's see if Gyarados can threaten this fellow with just Earthquake alone.

252 Atk Jolly LO Gyarados using Earthquake vs 0 HP / 0 Def CAP6: 41.03% - 48.43%
252 Atk Jolly LO Gyarados using Earthquake vs 252 HP / 0 CAP6: 34.78% - 41.06%
252 Atk Jolly LO Gyarados using Earthquake vs 252 HP / 252 Def CAP6: 24.88% - 29.47%

252 Atk Adamant LO Gyarados using Earthquake vs 0 HP / 0 Def CAP6: 45.01% - 53.28%
252 Atk Adamant LO Gyarados using Earthquake vs 252 HP / 0 Def CAP6: 38.16% - 45.17%
252 Atk Adamant LO Gyarados using Earthquake vs 252 HP /252 Def CAP6: 27.29% - 32.13%

252 Atk Adamant CAP6 with -1 attack drop using Stone Edge against 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 51.96% - 61.63%
252 Atk Adamant CAP6 using Stone Edge against 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 78.55% - 92.45%
252 Atk Adamant CAP6 with a -1 attack drop using Thunder Punch against 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 78.55% - 93.05%
252 Atk Adamant CAP6 using Thunder Punch against 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 117.22% - 138.97%

I don't think this is necessary as I am all for Thunderpunch making the allowed moves list but if Thunderpunch was not allowed then Wood Hammer or Needle Arm would be quite handy for Water coverage. The only trouble is both names are so full of flavour that most people would be uncomfortable about adding them. If anything they should go on the contraversial list.

Yay for Thunderpunch supporter and if you're soo worried about flavor issues (which shouldn't be the main consider towards this project) you could always suggest Seed Bomb? It's a Tutor move so no worries about taking up precious movepool space. It's 80 BP so it's not too strong like Wood Hammer but not too weak like Needle Arm. It also allow Tentacruel and Gyarados to stay within the game of potent checks.

 

[Lawman]

Anyway, to Lawman, that's the point, Stratagem usage will increase a little. However in response, CAP 6 usage will increase and the cycle will start anew, with a pretty balanced metagame after a little while.

Ah, I see the point you were trying to get at now. However, I have a hard time seeing the game becoming more stable with just CAP6 and Gyarados being more common. It isn't just Strata, Gyara, and CAP6 in this cycle however, Strata becoming more common will emphasize the current stratagies and trends we currently have, and if CAP6 is meant to counter them, the usage and how much it does so would not be as much as if Gyarados were not present increasing the usage of Strata and friends.

I for mean time am still adamant on letting CAP6 have Stone Edge. However, I still don't wanna see this thing with Thunderpunch for previously stated reasons. Thunderpunch completely prevents Gyarados from countering it, while Stone Edge gives it a chance and doesn't hit as many potential counters.

 

[Atlas]

i think reversal should be allowed. despite popular belief, it is not a useless move in todays metagame. at under 20% its one of the most powerful fighting moves at 100bp, and at under 10% its the most powerful at 150bp. it doesnt need the maximum amount. when played right you can even play it two ways, you could use leftovers and make sure you hover around 10% to ensure a strong attack when you need it, or you can let the opponents attacks, spike, or weather to shave down your hp and explode when you get to a higher bp.

that or its just a really powerful that no one will use but really should be in his movepool.

using the most used Gyarados set, let's see if Gyarados can threaten this fellow with just Earthquake alone.

well, the best thing about introducing a new pokemon is that all the other pokemon will be exactly the same. sarcasm aside i see bounce was added to gyarados' movepool in platinum, and with it can immediately threaten cap6 (nearly ohkoing max hp/def variants). the plus on this is that even if cap6 switches out, the incoming pokemon is threatened with being hit with 30% paralysis attack.

 

[tennisace]

Yeah I'm going to agree with gorm here, since after thinking Bulky Waters are better counters anyway.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Well, the best thing about introducing a new Pokemon is that all the other Pokemon will be exactly the same. Sarcasm aside i see bounce was added to gyarados' movepool in platinum, and with it can immediately threaten cap6 (nearly ohkoing max hp/def variants). The plus on this is that even if cap6 switches out, the incoming Pokemon is threatened with being hit with 30% paralysis attack.

Provided that the move actually contact with something. 85% accuracy seem pretty shaky to reliable on but then Stone Edge has 80% accuracy itself so it's probably a moot point.

against any strong electric move: i like gyara/waters in this metagame, so imo no.

Fixed because Shock Wave, Charge Beam, Thunder Fang, and Spark means all Bulky Waters are done for despite their weak BP.

 

[gorm]

no, i'm against all of those too, unless i'm missing what you're saying. charge beam especially. a special set basically bulky water with charge beam+neutral stab vs bulky water with hp electric.

i don't want bulky waters to be done for o_O they are excellent "regulators" in this metagame.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Shock Wave: 60 BP
Thunder Fang and Spark: 65 BP
Charge Beam: 50 BP
Thunder Punch: 75 BP
Thunderbolt: 95 BP
Thunder: 120 BP

Everyone is suddenly shitting bricks over a 75 BP move when it had a full load of support before this. Shock Wave, Spark and Thunder Fang are weaker than the feared TP so you probably don't have to cry over spilled milk when your poor Bulky Water get's hit by a Spark or something.

 

[jagged_angel]

against any electric move i like gyara/waters in this metagame, so imo no.

for zen headbutt for revvie

for shadow claw gear towards hurting bulky psychics/revvie but loses flying type coverage

for aqua jet+mach punch, against ice shard/sucker punch this is "acceptable priority coverage" imo

I'm sorry but some actual reasoning wouldn't go amiss.

I like Gyara/waters in this metagame too but GT has just done the damage calcs and we see that a max attack Thunderpunch doesn't even OHKO Gyarados if CAP6 is intimidated. Given that Gyara is the only 4x hit for Thunderpunch, it won't be doing that much damage to other Bulky Waters. In fact, a SE Thunderpunch does the same damage as a neutral Cross Chop so Thunderpunch really is pretty harmless.


I would urge you to reconsider your position on Shadow Claw. Zen Headbutt is fine for Revenankh so Shadow Claw is only really for SE hits on Psychics.
Given that Psychics, especially Water/Psychics, Celebi and Cresselia are some of its best paper counters, we should encourage decentralisation and not give it coverage over all of them in one move slot. If we do, then maybe Punishment should be the only option, as it works so well with Unaware to punish stat uppers and has low BP against non stat uppers like Celebi, Starmie and Cresselia.


Why is AJ/MP "acceptable priority coverage" but IS/SP is not? Fleh, that doesn't mean much to me. Ice Shard's low BP means that it is relatively useless unless backed by Bulk Up or Swords Dance and the current opinion seems to be that this should be an anti-sweeper not a sweeper itself. Given that, Ice Shard is harmless and should be allowed if only to punish Salamence.

Sucker Punch is altogether a different matter. Since Substitute is a given, a Focus Punch/Sucker Punch combo with a recovery or water move could easily see use and Sucker Punch poses real issues for Psychic types which are, as previously mentioned, some of the least used yet most sensible counters to CAP6. I believe that Sucker Punch should be banned as it is discouraging for Psychic counters and is more powerful priority than neutral AJ/MP. It also encourages Focus Punch/Sucker Punch/Substitute set ups which is not how CAP6 was originally envisaged to be played.

 

[gorm]

fair enough. i retract my support for shadow claw.

gyara has a hard time vs any electric move, im sure bulky waters can handle nonstab thunderpunch but it's be nicer if they would wall it better.

also thunderpunch and shadow claw are essentially the same on starmie so idk why you are supporting it j_a

ice is pretty amazing stab especially with skymin unbanned on your server. o_o but yeah mence being a decent check is nice. im still against ice shard.

 

[jagged_angel]

Glad you agree about Shadow Claw. I've just noticed Sucker Punch is now Unallowed so that's also good news for Psychics.

Trouble is Bulky Waters wont wall it any better without Thunderpunch since if CAP6 gets a 100BP Fighting STAB it will do the same damage to all but Water/Psychics.

I Was in favour of Electric moves in general since I liked that CAP6 could have Water/Flying coverage in one slot. As Thunderpunch is low BP, equal to a neutral Cross Chop, its coverage against Bulky Water checks is actually moot. I like that Water/Psychics counter it better without Electric moves. The important thing is that it can cover fliers too. Actually I can't think of any notable coverage other than Gyarados and Togekiss since Staraptor isn't much seen on CAP. Thunderpunch is neutral on Zapdos, Skymin and Salamence so actually there isn't much use for it. I'll give up supporting it.

Ice is good against Skymin too but that needs all the threats it can get. Since CAP6 can't switch in on Skymin, it will rarely have the opportunity to Ice Shard it. Salamence is also very threatening so since we've gone halfway to nullifying the threat of DDMence with Unaware, I'd like us to go the whole way and give it Ice Shard. Remember Ice Shard's low BP means it is only really threatening when boosted or when 4x effective.

How do people feel about Avalanche?

It's weaker than Ice Punch in most cases, but since CAP6 can take a Zapdos Thunderbolt or a Salamence Outrage at full health, Avalanche could be powered up quite often.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Trouble is Bulky Waters wont wall it any better without Thunderpunch since if CAP6 gets a 100BP Fighting STAB it will do the same damage to all but Water/Psychics.

Well...not 100% correct. Majority of the Bulky Waters are 3HKO'd by a neutral Cross Chop, some a slim chance of a 2HKO. Thunder Punch generally 2HKO's majority of them without worrying about not having SR support.

BTW, I say move Wood Hammer, Needle Arm and possibly Seed Bomb into Controversial list. Mixed feeling about them but I would like the option to vote on them when the time comes.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

Next time we really have to go with Quite Good, guys. This over-over-over-over-over-over-restriction on the movepool every time is getting so upsetting.

 

[jagged_angel]

Well...not 100% correct. Majority of the Bulky Waters are 3HKO'd by a neutral Cross Chop, some a slim chance of a 2HKO. Thunder Punch generally 2HKO's majority of them without worrying about not having SR support.

BTW, I say move Wood Hammer, Needle Arm and possibly Seed Bomb into Controversial list. Mixed feeling about them but I would like the option to vote on them when the time comes.

Surely neutral Cross Chop of 100BP --> STAB --> 150BP is the same as Thunderpunch 75BP --> It's Super Effective! --> 150BP. They're the same damage on a Water type aren't they?

I agree about the Controversial Grass Moves - I'd like to see damage calcs really before judging their usefulness. Screw Needle Arm though - Seed Bomb is better.

Next time we really have to go with Quite Good, guys. This over-over-over-over-over-over-restriction on the movepool every time is getting so upsetting.

Don't be upset PO. It's not a good idea to give CAPs perfect coverage and Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, even if they only have a Quite Good rating. The restrictions on movepool are based around the counters discussion which is a good thing as it means what we envisaged countering it Actually counters it.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Surely neutral Cross Chop of 100BP --> STAB --> 150BP is the same as Thunderpunch 75BP --> It's Super Effective! --> 150BP. They're the same damage on a Water type aren't they?

Alright, after further testing (Well...not testing since I only used Suicune for it) I found that a SE ThunderPunch and a Neurtal Cross Chop would generally do the same amount of damage. I'll would do more testing but it's tiring trying to remember every single Bulky Water EV spreads.

I agree about the Contraversial Grass Moves - I'd like to see damage calcs really before judging their usefulness. Screw Needle Arm though - Seed Bomb is better.

I'll would do some calc on those as well

Edit: Damage Calcs on page 5.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Alright, after further testing (Well...not testing since I only used Suicune for it) I found that a SE ThunderPunch and a Neurtal Cross Chop would generally do the same amount of damage. I'll would do more testing but it's tiring trying to remember every single Bulky Water EV spreads.

...Which means that T-Punch is just for Gyarados and Starmie, as I thought?