CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 12a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I'd also prefer to see Surf/Hydro Pump as the main non-STAB moves.

Same, because it's a cloud and clouds make it rain so it fits perfectly.

Why do people keep insisting on using flavour as an argument?

Oh wait, you just said....


Ha ha, but to get serious, wouldn't the fighting moves be a bit helpful for some of the said possible counters?

Actually, if you're aimin' to make sure this can't can't take on everyone, that makes sense, especially for this Cap, since so many other offensive possiblilities are still being debated.

*Edit*

Now to get at several choices briefly....

I support both Fire and Water moves for offense. Mainly Surf and Flamethrower. Coverage with em is great.

I also support Special Fighting moves. Hits well on a few guys (like Heatran and Tyranitar), and at the same time won't be unbalaced by some others who won't be much afraid of it at all.

Mist Ball is quite clever, but its power is not appealing at all. The effect can actually help, but the power (70) is far too low.

I see no real purpose for Physical Fighting moves. Unless, a practical way of raising attack is available, just pass em on.

SelfdDestruct/Explosion serves little purpose as well. It won't even work on the guy. You can be either slow or have low attack for it, but never both. Packing the move just for Blissey doesn't seem smart at all.

 

[Auraknight]

I support Mist Ball for Allowed.
It was brought up a while ago and I think it suits the typing perfectly, whilst also having an interesting effect that would be useful with our stat spread.

Also, no fire attacks or water attacks

 

[hsb39]

It's a living thundercloud with freaking lightning bolts for heads, "screw the rules, I have green hair" logic applies to this bastard. Also isn't Castform believed to be some kind of cloud?

a cookie for anyone who knows where that line comes from

I do know where it comes from! YGOTAS.

Still, something like this should have some reliable counters, and there has to be some limits, we could always say:"Sketch would help this thing out to a great extent!" (Of course I'm over exaggerating, but you get my point).

 

[Veedrock]

Long post, bare with me. A lot of this is calcs and quotes.

About Focus Punch/Superpower, yes Gengar uses them of 65 Attack. However, it's not correct to say "it's still strong" because it isn't; Blissey is just weak. Without investment which Gengar needs elsewhere (as will CAP8), even Blissey can still take the blow.

[B]Gengar:[/B]
0 Superpower vs. 0/252 Blissey:    36.87% - 43.63%
252 Superpower vs. 0/252 Blissey:  50.69% - 59.91%
0 Focus Punch vs. 0/252 Blissey:   46.08% - 54.38%
252 Focus Punch vs. 0/252 Blissey: 63.59% - 74.96%
 
0 Superpower vs. 168/120 Snorlax:    29.03% - 34.59%
252 Superpower vs. 168/120 Snorlax:  40.16% - 47.32%
0 Focus Punch vs. 168/120 Snorlax:   36.18% - 42.94%
252 Focus Punch vs. 168/120 Snorlax: 50.10% - 59.24%

Yeah, Gengar doesn't get Superpower, bite me. It's for reference. CAP8 will be doing slightly less damage with the corresponding moves.

Focus Punch takes extraneous setup, and this completely ignores that Blissey can't touch Gengar (especially behind a sub), meaning it's not even an ideal switch in (it'll stall with Recovery, which it can do Focus Punch or no Focus Punch). Blissey CAN touch CAP8 though, and its really sacrificing moveslots just for Blissey. It should be noted that Superpower is going to deal less damage during the second hit as well, whilest making CAP8 more vulnerable to physical attacks (go go Dugtrio). I fail to see the danger with these moves and I feel you may be overestimating their effectiveness. I can understand Selfdestruct and Explosion though. What the hell is Volt Tackle gonna hit that makes it so dangerous?

Again, max attack is laughable (and I didn't include +Attack then for that reason). If Blissey switches into a stray Superpower/Focus Punch, that's about all that's happening (won't pull off another Focus Punch, Attack drops after Superpower). Dragon Dance + Focus Punch is even more humorous than max attack. Dragon Dance + Superpower doesn't really work either (who will bring Blissey in on the DD and actually leave it?). Deck Knight has said it should be unallowed because it hurts the CAP (which I won't argue with), but it's not like it takes up movepool space due to the tutors so I see no harm in including it.

I'm pulling for Focus Punch moreso than Superpower, but it got thrown in while I was doing calcs and see no danger in the move.

Other fighting moves have consistancy (can hit for equal damage constantly), making them much more threatening to those they hit, so I'm not exactly thrilled or rallying for them (I'm on the edge about Cross Chop because its accuracy blows though).

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Pending:
Explosion
Selfdestruct

Definitely pulling for Unallowed on both.

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Concerning the Water/Fire debate:

While there will likely be a poll for these, I'd like to give my position and reasoning (if you've made it this far into the post that is =X). I fully believe we should only have one or the other (Hidden Power can fill the gap if you'd like). Looking at Deck Knight's counters list for reference, if we want to keep as many counters/checks as possible, Fire moves are the way to go. It's not like Steels are having any trouble in the game, while Ground types struggle do struggle (bad enough that Draco Meteor messes with them). I'd rather not completely take Ground types from the counters and leave a fewer number available for us to use against this thing.

 

[TekkenStorm]

I support Focus Puch and Superpower for Allowed, Blissey walls this completely and those 2 moves atleast make sure Blissey things twice before it switches.

With it's low 60 Atk, Focus Punch and Superpower won't be such a threat to other pokemon.

 

[Numbuh 214]

I do know where it comes from! YGOTAS.

Still, something like this should have some reliable counters, and there has to be some limits, we could always say:"Sketch would help this thing out to a great extent!" (Of course I'm over exaggerating, but you get my point).

Of course; we have the "Counters" topic so we can keep in mind what CaP8 is supposed to be little to no threat to; not all of its counters have to stop CaP8 cold and send it fleeing back into its Poké Ball (from either fainting or switching), but since Tyranitar (which, for the record, has become one of my least favorite Pokémon simply due to the extent I've seen it in OU and the fact that it qualified for a boost it did not need this generation) has to counter this thing, we can't give it powerful special Fighting attacks like Aura Sphere or Focus Blast. Vacuum Wave, however, is acceptable to offer some form of priority along with a small way to keep its counters from switching in and stopping CaP8 cold; you see, Pokémon is not exactly a game of rock-paper-scissors.

...On an unrelated note (and probably in a way that will invoke thousands of "Thank you, Captain Obvious" responses), I anticipate the HP type of choice will be either Ground or Fighting, despite the slight cost in important stats.

 

[The_Bassoonist]

There is no reason to give a legendary signature move to a Pokemon that has little reason to use it past the typing. Plus, Spacial Rend, while not great, adds 15 base power and that could be game changing, just restrict it to the normal Dragon Pulse. .

Spacial Rend has Base 100 power, while Dragon Pulse has 90. Spacial Rend has 95% Accuracy as well as high CH ratio, whereas Dragon Pulse has perfect accuracy. Draco Meteor has 90% accuracy but base 140 power and the stat drop. Competetively, Spacial Rend looks like a mid-party alternative between the two extremes to me. I also find that the "legendary signature move" part is a borderline flavour argument. I support that it stay allowed.

I also support Mist Ball as being allowed. People wouldn't be using it for the power, but for the chance of crippling CAP 8's special counters. It does score SE hits on Rev and Fidgit, as well as Arghonaut, but the latter is still hit harder by STAB T-bolt. So it doesn't add much coverage-wise as well as taking up a moveslot. It becomes a matter of choice for the user.

Selfdestruct and Explosion for Unallowed. They are too versatile in terms of countering counters.

I think that Focus Punch and Superpower should be moved to Controversial. One move is a TM and the other a Tutor move, so it won't hurt the movepool too much, and their viability is already subject to debate. I personally see their potential usefulness, and would like to see a vote take place.

 

[Thorns]

I don't like any consideration of Spacial Rend on this. I contest its place in Allowed. First of all, Dragon Pulse is much better on a tank. There is no competitive reason to use Rend over Pulse except on a Choice set. PP and accuracy are far too important.

Spacial Rend to Disallowed.

I support Explosion and Selfdestruct to Disallowed as well.

 

[zarator]

Spacial Rend is basically a Dragon Aeroblast. Aside from PP issues, there would never be a reason to run Dragon Pulse over it. unallowed

PP issue is a huge concern for a wall like this, and besides all, it only have 10 more BP than Dragon Pulse (a 11% boost). Prove me this boost is somehow broken, otherwise I do not see the reason to declare it Unallowed this swiftly.

@Thorns: If a move is useless - or of little utility -, then it should be allowed.

Seriously, looking over the thread I have not seen a single proof that Spacial Rend would break CAP8. Are there any major Pokémon who are OHKOed instead of 2HKOed (or 2HKOed instead of 3HKOed)? Moreover, aganist anything besides Grass, Electric, Ground and Dragon Pokèmon, you would use already Thunderbolt which hits almost as hard as Spacial Rend (just 5 BP lower). And Dragon Pokémon already get mauled by Drgon Pulse, so the little boost from Spacial Rend would be of little meaning.

In my opinion moves (like people) are innocent until proven faulty, so, as long as there's no evidence of Spacial Rend being broken (aside from people prejudice), I propose Spacial Rend to be Allowed or at least Controversial

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I don't see much of a problem with Spacial Rend really, though a boosted critical is probably nothing that anyone wants anyway. There won't be much of a reason to use the move over Pulse in most situations anyways (the way I see it). This one should be discussed further.

 

[Penguino]

I say that explosion/selfdestruct should be at least considered further. 80 base speed outruns quite a few pokemon, and a choice scarf set will outrun nearly everything. CAP8 is being limited to tanking and walling, with no other capabilities. If we continue limiting it like this, it'll have one or two standard movesets that will be obvious and easy to predict. No one wants that. Even the most defensive pokemon in the standard metagame has offensive capabilities one way or another (except maybe blissey and forretress).

 

[Derek(PUK)]

Why do people keep insisting on using flavour as an argument?

CAP doesn't give a shit about flavour, apart from the Art/Sprite polls. We could give it all of these moves, if we wanted to.

EDIT: Bringing things back on topic, Focus Blast and Aura Sphere to Unallowed. I'd also prefer to see Surf/Hydro Pump as the main non-STAB moves.

its a fucking pokemon maybe?

Look at all the past cap's movepools and tell me that "flavour" isnt involved.

 

[Stellar]

Ok Derek(PUK), Sgt_Woodsy is completely right. This part of the process is to decide which moves are viable on this Pokemon regardless of flavor. Flavor should play no role in decisions at this point.

Yes, flavor is a part of the Pokemon's movepool, but as can be read in this thread, the flavor aspect does not come into consideration until the final movepool submissions.

However, the flavor aspect is moreso for adding moves to the final movepool than removing them preemptively.

 

[Ash Borer]

I don't see much of a problem with Spacial Rend really, though a boosted critical is probably nothing that anyway wants anyway. There won't be much of a reason to use the move over Pulse in most situations anyways (the way I see it). This one should be discussed further.

It seems like a good move to be used. A specs set would enjoy, and I dont see it broken in any way. Someone remind what the crit ratio is for this move?

 

[Objection]

Hold on, I've seen a few posts mention a move called Mist Ball. I've never heard of this move before. What is it?

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Hold on, I've seen a few posts mention a move called Mist Ball. I've never heard of this move before. What is it?

Mist Ball. Probably only be used against Revvy and Arghonaut.

 

[tennisace]

I say that explosion/selfdestruct should be at least considered further. 80 base speed outruns quite a few pokemon, and a choice scarf set will outrun nearly everything. CAP8 is being limited to tanking and walling, with no other capabilities. If we continue limiting it like this, it'll have one or two standard movesets that will be obvious and easy to predict. No one wants that. Even the most defensive pokemon in the standard metagame has offensive capabilities one way or another (except maybe blissey and forretress).

How is Base 112 Special Attack and Base 80 Speed "limiting", especially with high powered moves such as Draco Meteor, Thunderbolt, and possibly Hydro Pump/Overheat/Fire Blast? By the way, the definition of a tank is to take a hit and hit hard back. This won't be underpowered in any way.

Explosion/Selfdestruct allow it to deal with Blissey, which as one of its counters it shouldn't be able to do. That's the same reason Focus Punch and Superpower shouldn't be allowed too.

What's so bad about having "one or two movesets" anyway? Scizor usually only runs one moveset, yet if you don't have a counter it still beats up teams.

 

[Objection]

Mist Ball. Probably only be used against Revvy and Arghonaut.

Why Mist Ball over Extrasensory or Psychic though?

 

[zarator]

Why Mist Ball over Extrasensory or Psychic though?

Maybe Luster Purge would make more sense over Mist Ball

 

[Auraknight]

Whilst Luster Purge would get STAB, it would never be used over Dragon Pulse or Spacial Rend. In the case of CAP 8, Mist Ball provides another attacking option for Specs or Scarf sets, whilst also providing an effect which will be very useful to a wall/tank.

 

[Objection]

Whilst Luster Purge would get STAB, it would never be used over Dragon Pulse or Spacial Rend. In the case of CAP 8, Mist Ball provides another attacking option for Specs or Scarf sets, whilst also providing an effect which will be very useful to a wall/tank.

But like I said, why not Extrasensory or Psychic? They have 10 and 20 more base power respectively and the former has a chance to flinch while the latter has a chance for a special defence drop.

 

[zarator]

Whilst Luster Purge would get STAB, it would never be used over Dragon Pulse or Spacial Rend. In the case of CAP 8, Mist Ball provides another attacking option for Specs or Scarf sets, whilst also providing an effect which will be very useful to a wall/tank.

What? Do you know what are you talking about? Luster Purge is a Psychic move with the same power of Mist Ball and a 50% chance of lower Sp Def instead of Sp Atk. I think it would indeed be more useful, especially on a Specs or Scarf set.

 

[Auraknight]

Apologise on typing, however I still feel the effect of Mist Ball is more useful

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Apologise on typing, however I still feel the effect of Mist Ball is more useful

Like I said, the 50% chance of a drop in the opponent's Special Attack is useful since the Special Defense of this guy is low, but the low power is hardly worth it. I'd rate it higher than Extrasensory in this case, but I'd still look at Psychic before any of them.

Maybe Luster Purge would make more sense over Mist Ball

Actually, Luster Purge is even worse than Mist Ball. It's just a weakened Psychic.

 

[ferron]

Actually, Luster Purge is even worse than Mist Ball. It's just a weakened Psychic.

except that luster purge can actually help with either sweeping or forcing switches. this is still completely ignoring the fact that both Luster Purge and Mist Ball are exclusive. why do people always want exclusive moves...

same goes for spacial rend and how it is semi-exclusive...

edit-dragon has precedent for having both flamethrower and surf (dragonite and garchomp) and fire blast and hydro pump (salamence), but there is no precedent on the electric for it.