CAP 9 CAP 9 - Concept Assessment

[Plus]

In this thread, discuss CAP 9's concept. What kinds of directions could we go from "Stopping the Secondary"?

Name: Stop the Secondary
Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

Justification: While the immediate threat of damaging moves is large and present, the affect of moves such as status, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes have arguably had a greater affect to the metagame than anything has ever had, something that this would greatly look in to.

Questions to be Answered:
~ How easily would a Pokémon with such large of a niche be able to fit into a competitive team?
~ How large of an impact would the reducation of non damaging affects and moves have on the metagame?

- What, if any, would happen to the types of teams being used?
- How would this affect the usage of these types of moves?​

~ How much of an affect does typing have on the ability for ANY Pokémon to perform this duty?

Here's what I want discussed:

• What are common secondary moves in today's metagame?

• What does it mean to "Stop the Secondary"?

• What are the possibilities of this CAP? (Try not to poll jump too much here)

• How are immunities used in the current metagame? How can we apply that knowledge to this project?

• What do we gain from an immunity pokemon?

And of course, be sure to follow the rules.

• No bashing. Obviously this is common sense. No insulting, no passive aggressive insulting, and no witty remarks. Try to keep it clean.

• No poll jumping. When I said, "What are the possibilities of this CAP?", I did not mean "Well, give this pokemon ___ ability with ___ moves with ___ typing". You are welcome to give possibilities for this CAP in terms of abilities, moves, and typing, but not combined. Furthermore, do not post assuming CAP 9 got these traits, rather post to promote discussion on "Stopping the Secondary".

• Don't be afraid to ask questions. This is what this thread is here for. I already saw lots of misconceptions and confusion with the above concept last poll. To avoid it happening again, be sure to to look into this thread.

This thread will close on September 30, 10:00 EST.

 

[moi]

A lot of people have been wondering, what did you have in mind when you talked about things this CAP could handle. I've come up with a relatively simple list for you reading pleasure.

Sleep
Poison
Paralysis
Confusion
Attract
Burn
Freeze
Stealth Rocks
Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Weather Conditions (Hail, Sandstorm, Rain, Sun)
Gravity
Trick Room
Trick
Taunt
Encore
Leech Seed

The goal of this concept from my written perspective is to be able to stop a variety of the moves I have just posted. The key word that people need to focus on, and I CANNOT stress this enough, is variety. In no way, shape, or form, should this Pokémon be able to stop every thing I have just listed.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

i would remove attract from that list. it just isn't used... ever. also, I think it would be a good idea to add whirlwind and roar. maybe some of those mean but situational dark moves could make the list... torment and snatch for example?

i'm not so much interested in the list, though, as how exactly we are supposed to stop some of the effects of those moves. obviously taunt would work against most, maybe all, but what else?

 

[Kamen Rider]

I think the first big question we want to ask is do we want a pokemon that has ways of being immune to secoundary effects, which can be accomplished through typing (steel, flying, poison, grass) abilites (Soundproof, Magic Guard, Cloud nine etc.) or moves (Safeguard, substitue Taunt etc.) or do we want a pokemon that punishes people using secoundary effects (Klutz against trickers, syncronize, sleep talk, Psycho shift against status effects)

Personally I think the punishement route would be more effective, though giving certain immunites may be needed to better accomplish the punishing aspect.

What I think we should try to avoid is the "fight fire with fire" mentality. For example, creating the fastest taunter in the game would certainly provide a huge deterant against secoundary moves, but then we would end up with a pokemon that is dominants when using a secoundary move, so is that the best way to live up to the concept?

 

[ReysonTheNoble]

By "Stopping the Secondary", I assume we're going to try to make something that has some combination of the following traits:
-Is immune to some or all status
-Doesn't take damage from entry hazards
-Does not lose its item when hit by Trick

I don't see any point in stopping Attract, Gravity, or Trick Room, as they are rarely used. I really see no way to stop Encore without inventing our own ability or move. If we want to be immune to Leech Seed, a grass typing is required. As for all the status, we could simply make it a type immune to one type of status (Ground for Paralysis, Steel for Poison, Fire for Burn) and have it's ability make it immune to another (Limber, Immunity, Water Veil, Own Tempo). It might be genderless just in case attract becomes a problem. Sticky Hold might be considered for stopping Trick.

Overall, I think this concept could build on our knowledge of not only these moves, but moves in general. What moves are useful for what purpose? Which moves can aid in an offensive effort, and which ones aid in a defensive effort? Which aid both? Which aid neither?

Oh, and I hope I didn't poll jump too much, these are just possibilities, not my expectations for the project.

 

[moi]

the main problem with the viability of taunt is that you can't switch in and use a move on the same turn.

anyways, i'll list some key things that can be used to stop, as well.

Typing
Grass - Leech Seed
Dragon - None
Fire - Will-o-wisp
Poison - Toxic Spikes/Toxic
Water - None
Steel - Toxic/Immune to Toxic Spikes/Immune to Sandstorm
Normal - None
Ground - Immune to Thunder Wave/Immune to Sandstorm
Flying - Immune to Spikes/Toxic Spikes
Rock - Immune to Sandstorm
Ice - Immune to Hail
Fighting - None
Dark - None
Psychic - None
Bug - None
Electric - None
Ghost - None

and this is where the list gets much much bigger.
off the top of my head.

Abilities
Cloud Nine/Air Lock - Removes Weather from affecting THIS Pokemon
Mountaineer - Immunity to Stealth Rock
Levitate - Immunity to Spikes/Toxic Spikes
Volt Absorb/Motor Drive - Immunity to Thunder Wave (and all other Electric moves)
Sticky Hold - Immunity to Trick
Klutz - Removes Item Effect (severely weakens Trick's effect)
Flash Fire - Immunity to Will-o-Wisp
Insomnia - Immunity to Sleep
Limber - Immunity to Paralysis
Liquid Ooze - Immunity to Leech Seed
Magma Armor - Immunity to Freeze
Oblivious - Attract Immunity
Own Tempo - Confusion Immunity
Sand Veil - Sandstorm Immunity
Snow Cloak - Immunity to Hail
Suction Cups - Immunity to force switched this adds to the roar/whirlwind point umbreon_dan made
Vital Spirit - Prevents Sleep
Water Veil - Prevents Burn

 

[iss]

You missed Magic Guard, which is very big.

 

[moi]

Magic Guard was not missed. In my opinion, it makes this pokemon able to take on TOO much

 

[Kamen Rider]

Soundproof could be added to that list since it provides immunity against perish song, roar, and some of the less accurate sleep moves.

 

[Matthew]

Moi you seemed to forget the ability Multitype, not only can it prevent it's item from being knocked off / tricked, but it can also become any type it wants, really lowering the amount of secondaries harm it.

 

[Arb]

Klutz is a really good ability that isnt used by any good pokemon so i think that would be good on it. Flying and steel are probably the two best typings for stoping effects. I suppose the other type could be used to stop a status of leech seed depending on nessity. The best way to counter status that i can think of would to give it heal bell, aromatherapy, you could give it shed skin or something but then you couldnt really counter trick. hmmm thats all i got :P

 

[ShravanP]

What do we gain from an immunity pokemon?

I wanted to mainly touch on this aspect, since I've faced some frustration before in this area. I feel that such a concept will really help bring back stall play. I've not been playing for the last 3 or 4 weeks, but for a couple of months prior to that, I played a lot of stall. Granted, my teams weren't fantastic or perfect, but they didn't suck either, and I got a good idea of what stall's all about. As far as I found, the conventional stall approach was no longer a viable strategy.

I started out with a replica of Obi's stall team, and I found that with all the Trickscarfers and taunters running around now, it fared rather badly. I then built a few of my own teams composed of the usual stall suspects (and a few new faces), but they also fell prey to the abundance of trick and taunt users. So I tried incorporating a lot of different strategies of my own to balance out these weaknesses. I remember trying everything from perish song to taunt to u-turn to having my own trickscarfers/scarfers in a stall team (in many combinations). And in doing these things, I really felt that the stalling essence of my teams was compromised to a large extent.

My thoughts on this concept, therefore, is that by being immune to these "Secondary" moves (which really do control the metagame right now), it will provide a solid pillar around which stall teams can play. The biggest culprit, in my opinion, is Trick, which became a LOT more common with the advent of Platinum. It simply obliterates stall play by completely neutralizing some very vital part of the team. And as a result, what's happened is that most teams end up being offensively oriented but built around type reistances. The large bulk of the recent RMT's are like this, and there are practically no proper stall teams.

So I feel that one of the most necessary things for this pokemon to do would be to counter Trick users somehow, either by punishing them or by being immune. If this is managed, we should definitely see a better balance between offensive play and stall play.

 

[Apocalypse B-C]

Well if the idea were to use it with Taunt, than ideally it would need the ability to fit into a lead role, otherwise the Taunt wouldn't work out....

As near as I can tell, the main secondary move 'groups' are Entry Hazards, Trick, Taunt, Status, and Leech Seed - at least in my experience, correct me if I'm wrong - so ideally, a "secondary-stopping" pokemon would be able to negate at least the majority of those 5 moves, or the majority of the parts of those groups of moves.

Entry Hazards and Leech Seed are both dealt with if the pokemon learns Rapid Spin - Mountaineer coupled with a Flying type would grant immunity to all entry hazards, though Mountaineer with a Poison type is more effective at dealing with all but Spikes - and it takes longer to set up Spikes fully than either of the other hazards, so Rapid Spin could pretty much deal with that problem. Leech Seed would necessitate either a Grass-type or Liquid Ooze, or a typing that could easily takedown the common Leech Seeders and then just switch out if the Seeder is KOed, or Rapid Spin on the switch-out. Personally I really like the idea of Liquid Ooze - it doesn't get nearly enough good representation in OU these days.

Trick is countered by a tendency to use Choice items regardless, a pokemon that has an item that has a negative effect for opposing pokemon (like a Black Sludge on a Poison-type), or the Klutz ability....

Taunt is useless against pokemon that don't use support moves; a sweeper with enough power to take out the Taunter if it stays in.

Status is most easily countered by a pokemon that can effectively RestTalk, or also by either a pokemon of a type that is naturally immune to certain status, or by an ability that makes good use of status, like Guts or Quick Feet. (the RestTalking makes it difficult to coincide with the whole 'not having to worry about Taunt' thing, so it'd probably only be countering either Taunt or Status)

What I get from that summary for a Secondary-Stopper would be an offense-trended Poison/[Steel/Fire/somethin else]-type with Mountaineer/Liquid Ooze and Rapid Spin - I suspect that's overplanning, but that's what I get from it. (obviously it wouldn't counter each of those 5 all at once, but you never know which ability it's running with, so best to play it safe and not use either (SR or Leech Seed), for the most part....

Again, just my point of view. Personally I'd love to see a Poison-type gain popular use in OU that isn't named Gengar or Tentacruel (or Fidgit, I suppose), so this frame of thought would work out very well in my opinion....but again, just my opinion.

 

[Sandal8]

Multitype sounds very interesting; if nothing else, a Trick immunity is one of the biggest things Stop the Secondary could stand to gain; it would also allow you to customize your CaP to block/counter certain Entry Hazards/Residual Damage of your choice. It could also be a great way to ensure that CaP 9 isn't immune to too much or too little at once, and creates enough "wriggle room" for each battler to customize it to meet his or her needs.

On second thought, Stealth Rock, Status, and Trick are pretty much the only Secondary damage I see besides the rare Leech Seed, Spikes, or Toxic Spikes on Stall. Immunity to Entry Hazards is also heavily biased towards Offensive teams that rely on smart switches/immunities to make the most of their resistances. Residual damage is usually a lesser issue for other Stall teams because of a Rapid Spinner/Poison Type to absorb Toxic Spikes. Blissey, Celebi, and Starmie, which are common on stall, also all have Natural Cure to deal with Status issues somewhat. Most Stall Pokes also have SR neutrality, and most have access to some kind of recovery.

Which makes me think this may just end up as Steel + Fire/Grass with Levitate and Rapid Spin.

As moi's list pointed out, many types bring with them a specific resistance/immunity to 1 or 2 types of Secondary Effects; along with something like Psycho Shift, it could be really useful. Sort of off-topic; has there been a Normal typed CaP yet?

 

[Walvren]

The concept shouldn't be focusing so much on dealing with as many secondary moves it can, but deal with a particular niche. Secondary moves are also divided and subdivided again.

You've got indirect damage which can be split into entry hazards, burn/toxic and the others like Leech Seed. You've got move control, things like Trick, Taunt, Torment and Encore. Weather inducing moves can be included too.

What I'm saying is, don't go overboard with the countering of secondary moves, but single out what annoys and find a way to weaken it... slightly...

EDIT: I'd like to point out that the whole purpose of secondary moves in the metagame is to force switches. Perhaps you could make this pokemon enjoy staying in the battle instead of spinning away entry hazards, getting subs up at the speed of light etc but of course, you can blend some elements together...

 

[Cartoons!]

Are we creating a Pokemon that is personally immune or able to avoid a variety of these effects, or will it be able to protect its team mates from at least some of those effects as well?

Will it be relying on the opponent using a non-damaging move to switch in? Once in, will it be able to threaten and ko the opposing Pokemon, or simply neutralize its ability to mess with your team?

 

[sanjay120]

Just to nitpick: Air Lock and Cloud Nine block weather from affecting anything on the field, not just the Pokemon using it. And for completion's sake, does Ice Body give Hail immunity?

 

[Walvren]

Just to nitpick: Air Lock and Cloud Nine block weather from affecting anything on the field, not just the Pokemon using it. And for completion's sake, does Ice Body give Hail immunity?

Yes

 

[Stagnant]

What does it mean to "Stop the Secondary"?
I guess your stop and my stop mean two different things. My stop means, it literally prevents things from passing or working, in this case Status/ Trick/ Roar/ Spikes are prevented from being setup or kept up. Two moves, A certain Dual Typing, and the appropriate ability can accomplish this...

What are common secondary moves in today's metagame?
~Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Toxic Spikes
~Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Spore/ Sleep Powder, and Toxic
~Roar and Whirlwind
~Taunt
~Leech Seed
~Trick and Switcheroo
~Trick Room

What are the possibilities of this CAP?
~(Semi-) Unique Typing and Ability

What do we gain from an immunity pokemon?
~A more, and perhaps more effective, switchin into variety of Pokemon.

 

[Walvren]

Although the word "stop" is used in the title, it is the concept that matters. It does not necessarily mean we need to block them outright. Stopping in this sense, is lowering the prevalence of secondary moves by whatever means. It can be immunity (which has been implied so much its almost a requirement), deterring, punishing, rest-talking...

 

[Stormbuster]

I don't think that weather moves need to be stopped by cap 9. Sandstorm and hail are not quite as common as other status moves (will-o-wisp,thunder wave, leech seed, toxic, etc.) and entry hazards.

I also think that multitype has the potential to stop trick, and many status moves (not all at once, however). The only thing left is if/how we should stop entry hazards.

 

[Fuzznip]

Taking moi's list of secondary effects, these are some possibilities to avoid each one.

Sleep: Vital Spirit, Insomnia, Shed Skin, Safeguard, Taunt, Substitute.
Poison: Poison-type, Poison Heal, Quick Feet, Guts, Shed Skin, Safeguard, Substitute.
Paralysis: Ground-type, Motor Drive, Quick Feet, Limber, Shed Skin, Safeguard, Substitute.
Confusion: Own Tempo, Tangled Feet, Safeguard, Substitute.
Attract: Oblivious, Genderless, Taunt, Substitute.
Burn: Fire-type, Flash Fire, Quick Feet, Guts, Water Veil, Shed Skin, Substitute.
Freeze: Ice-type, Magma Armor, Shield Dust, Shed Skin, Substitute.
Stealth Rock: Ground-, Steel-type, Magic Guard, Mountaineer, Taunt.
Spikes: Flying-type, Levitate, Magic Guard, Taunt.
Toxic Spikes: Poison-, Flying-, Steel-type, Levitate, Magic Guard, Guts, Shed Skin, Quick Feet, Poison Heal, Taunt.
Weather Conditions (Hail, Sandstorm, Rain, Sun): Ice-type, Rock-, Ground-, Steel-type, Magic Guard, Ice Body, Snow Cloak, Sand Veil, Cloud Nine, Air Lock.
Gravity: High-powered low accuracy moves, Taunt.
Trick Room: Super slow, Trick Room, Taunt.
Trick: Sticky Hold, Klutz, Multitype, Taunt, Subsitute.
Taunt: Taunt.
Encore: Taunt.
Leech Seed: Grass-type, Liquid Ooze, Taunt, Substitute.

I probably missed a few somewhere, but these are the general ways to stop each of the listed secondary effects. And I'm not saying that we should be stopping all of them, that's insane.

I don't think that weather moves need to be stopped by cap 9. Sandstorm and hail are not quite as common as other status moves (will-o-wisp,thunder wave, leech seed, toxic, etc.) and entry hazards.

Hail may not be common, but I'm afraid Sandstorm is common as other status moves. Tyranitar and Hippowdon are pretty common.

 

[moi]

The statement about Sandstorm is far from true, Stormbuster. I understand any issues people have with Hail, Hail is oft seen. Sandstorm, on the other hand, is at quite the level of usage and is a pesk to most anything.

Anyways, I think this log between myself and Gen. Empoleon is a good view of our opinion on Multitype (this was in #cap)

[17:57:03] <%moi> Multitype is an interesting concept for removing trick. The biggest issue for the would be a removal of multiple type oppurtunites. If anything, the ability of Sticky Hold seems more competitively viable, but it's hard to say. Multitype adds a big part, which is unpredictability
[17:57:33] <@Gen_Empoleon> I understand where you are coming from completely
[17:57:50] <@Gen_Empoleon> but I am curious to whether or not if it will be allowed in the poll.
[17:58:02] <%moi> It isn't up for me to decide
[17:58:14] <@Gen_Empoleon> really you have to look at its benefits to the concept
[17:58:19] <@Gen_Empoleon> versus the negative
[17:58:37] <@Gen_Empoleon> on the upside, it can resist all secondary types except Stealth Rock
[17:58:46] <@Gen_Empoleon> but the unpredictability is a bit unnerving
[17:58:50] <%moi> well
[17:58:52] <%moi> the main problem
[17:58:55] <%moi> is the LACK of coverage
[17:58:57] <%moi> you get
[17:58:59] <%moi> with multitype
[17:59:06] <%moi> because you are reduced to one typing
[17:59:13] <%moi> it's benefit, however
[17:59:19] <@Gen_Empoleon> right, but say your team is weak to toxic spikes
[17:59:20] <%moi> is that it allows you to fit it towards your team
[17:59:24] <@Gen_Empoleon> you can easily add in the poison mon
[17:59:28] <%moi> yeah
[17:59:29] <%moi> i know
[17:59:33] <%moi> the thing is
[17:59:39] <%moi> the concept doesn't fufill its statement then
[17:59:43] <%moi> it doesn't become variety
[17:59:44] <%moi> imo
[17:59:49] <%moi> it gets like 3-4 things tops
[17:59:51] <%moi> off that list
[18:00:19] <@Gen_Empoleon> it gets trick, burn, poison, electric, spikes, psychic (lol)
[18:00:20] <@Gen_Empoleon> hmmm
[18:00:36] <%moi> how does it get
[18:00:37] <%moi> burn
[18:00:46] <@Gen_Empoleon> fire types
[18:00:47] <%moi> only if you switch it to fire type
[18:00:48] <@Gen_Empoleon> cannot be burned
[18:00:52] <%moi> yeah
[18:00:54] <%moi> but
[18:00:56] <%moi> it can't cover
[18:01:00] <%moi> everything you listed at once
[18:01:02] <%moi> more like 1
[18:01:14] <@Gen_Empoleon> I know, but it is more "cover what your team is weak to in the status world"
[18:01:20] <@Gen_Empoleon> which I can see your concept covering
[18:01:36] <%moi> well
[18:01:41] <%moi> i guess if you loophole wording
[18:01:47] <%moi> it can cover a variety of threats
[18:01:50] <%moi> but in the same way
[18:01:51] <%moi> it can't
[18:01:57] <@Gen_Empoleon> yeah
[18:01:58] <%moi> you know what i'm getting at, right?
[18:02:06] <@Gen_Empoleon> I can see what you're saying
[18:02:30] <@Gen_Empoleon> multitpye is really a 50/50 choice then I guess

 

[zarator]

• What are common secondary moves in today's metagame?

I'd say Leech Seed, entry hazards, Taunt, Trick/Switcheroo and Roar/Whirlwind. The other effects are a bit uncommon to justify their "commonness"(remember that, with Fidgit out of the picture, Encore is much less frequent too)

• What does it mean to "Stop the Secondary"?

I'd say that "Stop the Secondary" can mean 2 different things:
1) CAP9 is resistant/immune/not troubled by most of these effects. This would mean CAP9 could be anything although a sweeper maybe is what would benefit the most out of this.
2)CAP9 is built to punish the opponent if he uses these moves, decreasing the overall effectiveness of these moves in the metagame. Again, although CAP9 could be anything, I think a sweeper would be the best thing (bar resorting to Taunt) - the ability to put great pressure into the opponent is the best way to prevent them from using (a lot of) these moves.

• What are the possibilities of this CAP? (Try not to poll jump too much here)

What I said before. Also, I'd say that, should we go down the "sweeper route", a wallbreaker would be probably better at the job than a setup sweeper thanks to the more immediate threat.

• How are immunities used in the current metagame? How can we apply that knowledge to this project?

Immunities are a not so used part of the OU metagame - presence of walls able to withstand attacks being the main reason. The only immunities I see used with some kind of frequence are:

- Flying/Levitate -> Ground immunity. This is by far the most used, thanks to the high number of threatening sweeper (and proficient walls) which are either Flying or levitators
- Ground/Volt Absorb -> Electric immunity. This is generally used to soak up random Thunder Waves (although Natural Cure Pokémon are often a safer bet) and threatening STAB Electric moves from Zapdos, Rotom and especially Jolteon.
- Poison/Steel -> Toxic immunity. Again, Natural Cure Pokémon are a good and used alternative.
- Water Absorb -> Water immunity. Only Vaporeon has this trait in OU, but it is enough common to deserve its own mention
- Flash Fire -> Fire immunity. Heatran is the only Flash Fire OU Pokémon, but like Vaporeon, its usage warrants a mention nonetheless.

Despite the existance of other kind of immunities, these are the most used. Since OU metagame is not as fast-paced as, say, Little Cup, there is less need for immunities (even neutral but dedicated walls like Blissey can take quite a beating before going down, unlike Munchlax and friends in LC)

• What do we gain from an immunity pokemon?

Well, it is hard to tell as of now. It depends on how the concept is developed in the next threads. Perhaps, once stats and ability are decided, we can start refine our prediction and actually state a concrete, realistic goal to reach with the introduction of CAP9 in the metagame.

EDIT: About Multitype, I'm a bit skeptical. If we go with the standard "must-have" TMs and tutor moves (All Ice Pokémon get Ice Beam/Blizzard, all Dragon Pokémon get Draco Meteor etc), this thing would get a out-of-the-wazoo movepool - much larger than every CAP we ever created, maybe larger than everything else in OU. I can see the possible benefits (neat way to counter Trick and yet retain versatility), but I also definitely see a possible issue.

 

[Walvren]

I don't think that weather moves need to be stopped by cap 9. Sandstorm and hail are not quite as common as other status moves (will-o-wisp,thunder wave, leech seed, toxic, etc.) and entry hazards.

I also think that multitype has the potential to stop trick, and many status moves (not all at once, however). The only thing left is if/how we should stop entry hazards.

I really want to detract attention away from entry hazards. They can be defended against with Rapid Spin and if that's not enough, I can tell you more. Entry hazards have 2 uses, to ensure a particular number of hits to KO and to be used in conjunction with Roar/Whirlwind and other secondary moves to cause switching. If that's just too much to handle, tough.

I think it's better to focus on secondary moves that force switches than on entry hazards.