Voting Dark cause of the number of "secondary effects specialists" it can take down compared to the two other types currently on offer. Anyway, that's the main reason... any others are already covered in the discussion thread.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll
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As mentioned in the first paragraph: don't just specify which type you voted for. It should be obvious based on the contents of your post. I voted because I find immunity to certain status effects far more useful than pursuit STAB and resistance in a pokemon that aims to reduce the effects of certain status effects.
I voted Ground, for the following reasons:
1: Stealth Rock Resist, Sandstorm Immunity, and Thunder Wave Immunity gives us a nice base to start on.
2: Ground is a decent STAB attacking type, unlike Dark, which fails against the high number of steels out there.
3: Unless we give a Dark CAP9 over 130 Base Attack, or make the focus not STAB Persuit, we've made an inferior Scizor, considering Technician = STAB. Not to mention Choice Band kills trickers, by locking them into Trick.
4: Again, about Dark CAP9, it dosen't stop trickers. To stop trick, it has to switch in on Trick. Unless we give it Sticky Hold, or something similar, the Tricker has acomplished it's mission. Not to mention, dark CAP9 is now locked on Persuit. Dark isn't exactly a good offensive typeing, considering all the Steels running about... and other Dark types.
5: As mentioned before, we can use several Secondary typeings to increase Ground's immunities/resistances. Water is good for resists, Fire is slighty worse for resists, but grants 2 great STABS, the ability to mix attack and break Toxic-useing walls, and Burn immunity.
1: Stealth Rock Resist, Sandstorm Immunity, and Thunder Wave Immunity gives us a nice base to start on.
2: Ground is a decent STAB attacking type, unlike Dark, which fails against the high number of steels out there.
3: Unless we give a Dark CAP9 over 130 Base Attack, or make the focus not STAB Persuit, we've made an inferior Scizor, considering Technician = STAB. Not to mention Choice Band kills trickers, by locking them into Trick.
4: Again, about Dark CAP9, it dosen't stop trickers. To stop trick, it has to switch in on Trick. Unless we give it Sticky Hold, or something similar, the Tricker has acomplished it's mission. Not to mention, dark CAP9 is now locked on Persuit. Dark isn't exactly a good offensive typeing, considering all the Steels running about... and other Dark types.
5: As mentioned before, we can use several Secondary typeings to increase Ground's immunities/resistances. Water is good for resists, Fire is slighty worse for resists, but grants 2 great STABS, the ability to mix attack and break Toxic-useing walls, and Burn immunity.
Seems like Dark's won without my vote, but hey.
Dark types are scare, and the only OU defensive one is Umbreon, which fails at most walling which isnt Toxic-Stalling or Baton Passing, and cant stop set-up sweepers from dominating the game.
We'd learn the most from Dark, and the whole argument about Trick and Pursuit goes here; I dont wanna type it out since it's all known already.
But, to run Dark, this CAP needs a lot more thought on it's secondary typing and ability, and it actually needs an amazing movepool. I just think there's much more potential with Dark than there is with anything else.
Dark types are scare, and the only OU defensive one is Umbreon, which fails at most walling which isnt Toxic-Stalling or Baton Passing, and cant stop set-up sweepers from dominating the game.
We'd learn the most from Dark, and the whole argument about Trick and Pursuit goes here; I dont wanna type it out since it's all known already.
But, to run Dark, this CAP needs a lot more thought on it's secondary typing and ability, and it actually needs an amazing movepool. I just think there's much more potential with Dark than there is with anything else.
Voted GROUND for reasons stated in the first thread.
Don't give up hope!
Don't give up hope!
I don't care that Normal is losing heavily; I still voted for it, as I still think it's the best typing for this.
First of all, STAB Pursuit. Do we _really_ need STAB Pursuit? If most Trickers are weak to Pursuit, we don't really need STAB. And if you tell me that you need STAB against Pokemon that aren't weak to Dark, then I'll just say "but most of those don't have Trick!"
Secondly, as someone has already highlighted, you actually need to switch into the Tricker without getting Tricked, and I really don't know how the Dark type is going to help in doing that. Not that any other type would, but it seems like, in going for the Dark type, we're going for an offensive way of dealing with Trickers, which I feel doesn't work.
In view of this, choosing something with the least amount of weaknesses was the way to go for me. Just look at my arguments in the other thread if you want them in more detail.
Of course, this whole post is moot, as it's practically certain that this CAP will be Dark-typed. Seems like I need to start considering everything from the beginning all over again.
First of all, STAB Pursuit. Do we _really_ need STAB Pursuit? If most Trickers are weak to Pursuit, we don't really need STAB. And if you tell me that you need STAB against Pokemon that aren't weak to Dark, then I'll just say "but most of those don't have Trick!"
Secondly, as someone has already highlighted, you actually need to switch into the Tricker without getting Tricked, and I really don't know how the Dark type is going to help in doing that. Not that any other type would, but it seems like, in going for the Dark type, we're going for an offensive way of dealing with Trickers, which I feel doesn't work.
In view of this, choosing something with the least amount of weaknesses was the way to go for me. Just look at my arguments in the other thread if you want them in more detail.
Of course, this whole post is moot, as it's practically certain that this CAP will be Dark-typed. Seems like I need to start considering everything from the beginning all over again.
I think that if we're aiming for less weaknesses, Ghost is the obvious way to go for the secondary typing. Then we can create an ability that will help with the task of this CAP.
Are you assuming that the Tricker has "accomplished" its mission after using 1 move? Trick? The Tricker still has great value to your opponent, and since you can outspeed with Pursuit, you take out that Pokemon.
Being locked into Pursuit when you're Ground type is a bad thing.
Being locked into Pursuit when you're Dark type is absolutely fine.
Also consider holding a choice item yourself. When they use Trick, you swap Choice Scarfs. Now he either has to switch out or use Trick again.
Dark does instill the OHKO fear into those bulky Rotom forms, don't say that Dark doesn't stop Trick. It does.
Kinda disappointed to see such a small pool of choices.
I voted for Dark-type. Both Normal-type and Ground-type are good, but a Water and Grass weakness for Ground-type hinder it as they are types which are likely to have a secondary-effect moves which this CAP should stop (Roserade and W-Rotom for example) and also while it gives Eathquake STAB, which is nice, it's unneeded as most trickers have Levitate as ability.
While the only thing Normal offers is Ghost immunity, which Dark already resists. Dark also hits Ghost and Psychic super effective which tend to carry Trick alot. Sure, Normal is only weak to Fighting while Dark is weak to 2-types, but Bug-type attacks are not very common. Only Scizor uses them in OU, but he also tends to carry Superpower with them so in the long run it won't change a thing.
I voted for Dark-type. Both Normal-type and Ground-type are good, but a Water and Grass weakness for Ground-type hinder it as they are types which are likely to have a secondary-effect moves which this CAP should stop (Roserade and W-Rotom for example) and also while it gives Eathquake STAB, which is nice, it's unneeded as most trickers have Levitate as ability.
While the only thing Normal offers is Ghost immunity, which Dark already resists. Dark also hits Ghost and Psychic super effective which tend to carry Trick alot. Sure, Normal is only weak to Fighting while Dark is weak to 2-types, but Bug-type attacks are not very common. Only Scizor uses them in OU, but he also tends to carry Superpower with them so in the long run it won't change a thing.
CAP9 doesn't have to necessarily stop the tricker using trick, but neutralise the effect. If CAP9 holding a choice scarf comes in, gets a choice scarf tricked to it, and then can KO using pursuit as they switch, you have effectively taken down one of their pokemon for nothing; you have "punished" them for using the move trick. As mentioned above, the Rotom forms do fear STAB pursuit.
Raikaria said:
And Ground fails against anything with Flying or Levitate, a rather large percentage of the metagame due to Grounds reasonable attack in Earthquake. Also, what is Ground going to do against the most common trickers? Rotom-A, Latias, Gengar, etc. They all have Levitate, making your STAB completely useless.
Raikaria said:
You seem to forget that the CAP will have another type, ability, and moves completely different from that of Scizor. What if it gets Flamethrower and a useable Special Attack stat? Can Scizor do that as well? Not only that, but Technician only ='s STAB if the BP of the move is 60 or below.
Raikaria said:
Tell this to Tyranitar, one of the most OU of OU. That aside, Sticky Hold and Klutz are the only thing that stop trick from actually taking place. No single type can stop Trick. Period. You want Ground? How is Ground going to stop trick? I don't see Ground as a typing enjoying getting a Choice Scarf either, a few notable exceptions aside. Your points don't take into consideration the fact that he still has another type to work with to go along with an ability.
EDIT: If you want a Ground type that deals reasonably well in the current metagame and doesn't mind getting tricked a Choice Scarf or Band, then just use Flygon.
It definitely looks like Dark is going to have a landslide victory, however.
No, Dark blocks Psychic Attacks not moves.
Nope. It doesn't always work that way when it comes to non-damaging moves. Being part Dark doesn't block Trick; being Part Ghost won't block Pain Split; being Dark won't block Skill Swap or Hypnosis, etc.
To be honest, I don't understand why Dark is so popular. What exactly does Dark typing do with regards to stopping the secondary? Don't throw the STAB Pursuit argument at me since Scizor gets a non-STAB Pursuit and has a hefty attack stat to use it from before Technician is applied. Therefore if we want CAP9 to get Pursuit, we could give it a massive attack stat and therefore won't have to rely on STAB for Pursuit to be powerful.
When it comes to status moves, Toxic cripples walls, Will-o-Wisp cripples physical sweepers and Thunder Wave cripples everything. Therefore immunity to Thunder Wave is paramount, and while the abilities Volt Absorb, Limber and Motor Drive also grant immunity to Thunder Wave, they take up one ability slot of a maximum of two. If we couple this with a typing that has no status immunities whatsoever, we have to gain immunity to loads more secondary effects with just one ability and one typing left, the former then meaning that immunity to Thunder Wave is not guaranteed.
And then some set-upper resistant to Pursuit such as SD Lucario comes in and gets a free turn to set up. Punished for using Trick? I don't think so. I put it to you that CAP9 must stop Trick and not just KO the Trick user. Since no typing can do that, CAP9 will rely on its ability to stop Trick from affecting it, meaning the burden of getting a variety of secondary effect immunities lies heavily on the shoulders of the typing.
One more word from me: if CAP9 is not immune to a secondary effect, it cannot make people think twice about using it, therefore it won't stop the secondary. Merely "punishing" users of secondary effects by OHKOing them is not enough. I just hope that, since Dark appears to be a clear winner, Ground is the secondary typing and we can focus our abilities on gaining immunity to the other secondary effects.
When it comes to status moves, Toxic cripples walls, Will-o-Wisp cripples physical sweepers and Thunder Wave cripples everything. Therefore immunity to Thunder Wave is paramount, and while the abilities Volt Absorb, Limber and Motor Drive also grant immunity to Thunder Wave, they take up one ability slot of a maximum of two. If we couple this with a typing that has no status immunities whatsoever, we have to gain immunity to loads more secondary effects with just one ability and one typing left, the former then meaning that immunity to Thunder Wave is not guaranteed.
And then some set-upper resistant to Pursuit such as SD Lucario comes in and gets a free turn to set up. Punished for using Trick? I don't think so. I put it to you that CAP9 must stop Trick and not just KO the Trick user. Since no typing can do that, CAP9 will rely on its ability to stop Trick from affecting it, meaning the burden of getting a variety of secondary effect immunities lies heavily on the shoulders of the typing.
One more word from me: if CAP9 is not immune to a secondary effect, it cannot make people think twice about using it, therefore it won't stop the secondary. Merely "punishing" users of secondary effects by OHKOing them is not enough. I just hope that, since Dark appears to be a clear winner, Ground is the secondary typing and we can focus our abilities on gaining immunity to the other secondary effects.
I voted Normal, as think that an actual cool normal type would be decent, and normal has one weakness and one immunity
OK then, but most people's arguments about using the Dark Type is to stop Trick, and STAB Persuit. I doubt that we'll give it over a Base 130 attack stat, which will prevent it from being inferior to Scizor at that job. If Scizor already does that better, the one reason people have for the primary type that they are supporting, why have that as a primary type?
And, it'll be hard to make a CAP so focused on Persuit not inferior to Scizor. Remember, Scizor is Number 1 in OU, has 1 weakness, and alongside Persuit, a massivly powerful Bullet Punch, U-Turn, and Superpower.
As for the point about Tyranitar, he's not that used, compared to some other pokemon nowadays, and the only reason anyone would use Trick on T-Tar is on a switch-in. Scarfed Rotom isn't going to come in on Tyranitar, trick the scarf, only to be persuited. 90% of players are smart enough to not send a tricker in on a Persuit user. And, 90% of the time, most players won't predict Trick. Unless you know that a Latias is scarfed, was just sent out and you have Blissey out, or something like that.
People forget, Trick has to be used on the first turn with choice items, the only items worthwhile tricking. Trick is hard to predict. Trick can be stopped with any banded/scarfed/speced pokemon. Scizor solves Trick issues, because unless we are going for 131 Base Attack +, Dark CAP9 will be inferior at dealing with what we typed it to do so, Trick.
Dark also makes no difference to all of the other Secondaries. One type can only check so many, and not many types work well with Dark. Unless we are forced to resort to Magic Guard, Dark CAP9 will probobly be vunerable to lots of status. One type can't stop Spikes, T-Spikes, Rocks, Thunder Wave, Burn, Posion, Sleep, Sand, and Hail, because Dark sure isn't going to help. I mean, Dark type dosen't even do anything to Trick, no type does, as a result, focusing on Trick is a poor choice, especially with it's limitations.
In other words, I agree with Objection, on the points about Dark Types.
Oh, and, have fun when your Dark CAP 9 is tricked as it switches in, locked on Persuit, and Swords Dance Lucario/SD/NP Infernape/Agilty Emploeon/Agligross/DD Gyarados/DD Salamance/Rock Polish Aggron/Subtran gets a free set up, either through type, sheer defensive stats, or Intimidate lowering the locked Persuit to LOL levels of damage. And all of those setting up can mean GG, especially without Argonaught on the team.
And, it'll be hard to make a CAP so focused on Persuit not inferior to Scizor. Remember, Scizor is Number 1 in OU, has 1 weakness, and alongside Persuit, a massivly powerful Bullet Punch, U-Turn, and Superpower.
As for the point about Tyranitar, he's not that used, compared to some other pokemon nowadays, and the only reason anyone would use Trick on T-Tar is on a switch-in. Scarfed Rotom isn't going to come in on Tyranitar, trick the scarf, only to be persuited. 90% of players are smart enough to not send a tricker in on a Persuit user. And, 90% of the time, most players won't predict Trick. Unless you know that a Latias is scarfed, was just sent out and you have Blissey out, or something like that.
People forget, Trick has to be used on the first turn with choice items, the only items worthwhile tricking. Trick is hard to predict. Trick can be stopped with any banded/scarfed/speced pokemon. Scizor solves Trick issues, because unless we are going for 131 Base Attack +, Dark CAP9 will be inferior at dealing with what we typed it to do so, Trick.
Dark also makes no difference to all of the other Secondaries. One type can only check so many, and not many types work well with Dark. Unless we are forced to resort to Magic Guard, Dark CAP9 will probobly be vunerable to lots of status. One type can't stop Spikes, T-Spikes, Rocks, Thunder Wave, Burn, Posion, Sleep, Sand, and Hail, because Dark sure isn't going to help. I mean, Dark type dosen't even do anything to Trick, no type does, as a result, focusing on Trick is a poor choice, especially with it's limitations.
In other words, I agree with Objection, on the points about Dark Types.
Oh, and, have fun when your Dark CAP 9 is tricked as it switches in, locked on Persuit, and Swords Dance Lucario/SD/NP Infernape/Agilty Emploeon/Agligross/DD Gyarados/DD Salamance/Rock Polish Aggron/Subtran gets a free set up, either through type, sheer defensive stats, or Intimidate lowering the locked Persuit to LOL levels of damage. And all of those setting up can mean GG, especially without Argonaught on the team.
To the guys who claim "Scizor would be better than CAP9 at pursuit": Techincian raises Pursuit power only when Pursuit power lies below 60, so, only when the opponent does not switch. In the other case, Scizor's Pursuit is a plain, simple UnSTABbed Pursuit, even weaker than Metagross' one. So, stop saying that Dark CAP9 with Pursuit but less than 130Atk would be inferior to Scizor. CAP9 would be actually inferior to Scizor only if its attack would be around base 80.
The point being that a good number of the status-inducing, or support Pokemon in general, around the place (such as Celebi, Rotom, Latias, etc.) are all weak to Dark-type attacks. Second, that nearly all Trick-users are Psychic- or Ghost-typed. Third, because if we are going to make a Pokemon that 'stops the secondary', we want a powerful Pursuit in general. It doesn't matter whether Scizor does it 'better', because all that matters is that CAP9 can do the job it was designed for, and the direction we're going could lead us somewhere entirely different from Scizor or Tyranitar. Dark-typing is also around the 'overall neutrality' area described by X-Act in regards to Normal-type, though slightly less so - two weaknesses and two resistances are not particularly noteworthy in general, and so there is a lot more scope for change when it comes to the secondary type, which is not the case with Steel, which generally has only a few types it can dual-type with due to the very nature of its common weaknesses resulting in a crippling 4x weakness effect - this is not so much a big deal for Scizor, given its general ability to evade damage by scouting, but CAP9 wants to be able to switch into things without fear of serious repercussions consistently. Dark-types stop the secondary not because they are immune to their moves but because they pose a great threat to the common perpetrators.
Those aren't the only abilities that can guarantee immunity from status. Poison Heal and Natural Cure have already been mentioned - provided the user of CAP9 is careful, there is no reason why those cannot work better than a simple truckload of immunities. Certainly we could make it Fire/Ground with the Immunity ability, but that would leave you with a bad typing and still less coverage against status than just Natural Cure. We don't need immunities to make CAP9 successful - in fact, it may hinder it to concentrate solely on immunities, since Fire is Stealth Rock weak, Steel and Poison are horrible STAB and almost all have very common weaknesses attached, and are poor choices for a defensive Pokemon.
Trick's only a tiny part of the game, and a precious ability slot solely to deal with it is a waste of time. We could give CAP9 Switcheroo if you're really unhappy (for flavour?), but eliminating the Trick user is a far more important achievement. Lucario is a problem for any Pursuit-user, that's more an argument against Pursuit itself than anything else. There are Pokemon who can stop Lucario, just put them on your team if you're seriously concerned, as you would do for Pursuit Ttar in Standard.
Once again, it can do both at the same time. It doesn't need a Fire typing to protect it from Burns, but I think that there is absolutely no substitute for a typing that gives it the ability to take on the users of secondary effects, vis-a-vis Dark-type. The difference being that if you cannot consistently be able to switch into them, or beat them decisively, there's absolutely no point in being able to switch into an attack at all - which is why Swampert never switches into a Thunder Wave from HP Grass Zapdos.
Oh, and voting for Dark for hidden reasons above.
Why is Pursuit so important, and the only thing we are talking about to stop Trick. Please, someone tell me.
Also, which direction are we going with "Stop the Secondary" Because at the moment it seems we're proposing to just beat the shit out of any user of Secondary Effects, which is supremely flawed, IMO. Yes, pursuit hits Celebi, so no more leech seed, it hits Psychics and ghosts, so no more trick. But how are we going to stop status effects? How are we going to stop weather? How are we going to stop entry hazards? Aromatherapy? Cloud Nine? Rapid Spin? If so, we're REALLY missing the potential of this CAP! And, in a way, making another T-Tar. He stops weather with Sand Stream. He pursuits. Then, just throw Fidgit or something into your team, and you're all set.
Also, which direction are we going with "Stop the Secondary" Because at the moment it seems we're proposing to just beat the shit out of any user of Secondary Effects, which is supremely flawed, IMO. Yes, pursuit hits Celebi, so no more leech seed, it hits Psychics and ghosts, so no more trick. But how are we going to stop status effects? How are we going to stop weather? How are we going to stop entry hazards? Aromatherapy? Cloud Nine? Rapid Spin? If so, we're REALLY missing the potential of this CAP! And, in a way, making another T-Tar. He stops weather with Sand Stream. He pursuits. Then, just throw Fidgit or something into your team, and you're all set.
It needs either Fire typing or the ability Flash Fire or Magic Guard.
If it doesn't have the right immunities, it will be hard-pressed to do any punishing of any kind.
I am assuming that pokemon X is using status move when CAP9 switches in. This renders the Poison Heal and Natural Cure arguments irrelevant, since neither of them prevent the opponent using a status move on CAP9 as it switches in, nor do they get rid of the status move as long as CAP9 is in play. Shed Skin may work as an ability because it does the latter but we shall decide on that later. As long as using a status or pseudo-status move on CAP9 as it switches in for the first time actually does something to CAP9, CAP9 fails.
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