CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 7a - Ability Discussion

[Kamen Rider]

This ability has actually been speculated on before but what about giving it the custom ability Speed-Intimidate. There are plenty of moves available to either prevent or clear out secoundary moves effects (Heal Beel, rapid spin, taunt etc) but if the pokemon is at risk of being KO or taunted by a faster pokemon than it wont be able to succesffuly set up the necessary prevention.

However we dont want to give the CAP too much speed or it risks turning it into a sweeper or just flat out dominating from unintended consequances of super high speed. Speed Intimidate fixes this problem. Now I dont think this should be the CAPs only ability, but it could provide some flexbility on how to deal with secoundary effects and compare to builds using its other ability.

 

[Sir-half]

let me just put this fact out... Quick feet is pretty much a waste with ground typing, as paralyze doesnt work. He can come in on toxic, but thats all.

Also, for the most part I think Vital Spirit will be the final ability name if we go with anti sleep, as it matches most of the cap art

Auto magic coat sounds broken... If you think magic guard is cheap, then this is...

Guts sounds good, coming in on burn or toxic and causing pain for their efforts.

Intolerance sounds nice, like steadfast, which causes pain for flinching gallade
Speed Intimidate sounds very good. I am also against using custom abilities, but I am pushing for this

EDIT: I bolded stuff

 

[Plus]

Regarding new abilities, there has been a steaming pile of shit of them. Try to cut it down, and only suggest them if they are significantly different from others already posted, and if they are half decent, meaning not too broken, not too utterly terrible. Beej and Deck's new abilities are examples to follow when approaching a new ability. So, uh, be a bit more careful before suggesting a new ability.

 

[Pink]

Arena Trap, most certainly. This would let the CAP switch into a secondary user, and would actually allow us to not even need pursuit. Instead, we can use the more powerful Crunch with much less worry. The main problem with have CAP9 use Pursuit is that the opponent could easily predict the switch, and not leave their Rotom, Celebi, etc. in to take the pursuit. Although this does get the point that we want our CAP to stop the Secondary, its much better if we kill the opposing 'mon altogether. Being able to trap the Secondary user will help net many more kills, and make the CAP much better at its job. Also, there is plenty of reason to believe this Ability fits the design. Ground / Dark just seems like trapping typing. I mean, Mean Look is dark, and Arena Trap is on grounds. It just makes sense.

Further, every team doesn't have secondary users. If we want our CAP to get use, it needs to be able to fulfill another role on a team. Having two GREAT STABs will allow the CAP to revenge kill rather nicely by simply switching in and giving the opponent no opportunity to switch out.

Then Magic Guard is a slippery slope. Obviously it will help the CAP a lot with doing its job. It doesn't need to fear the status moves when it switches in, and can switch in without regard to entry hazards. The only reason that I'm not suggesting we put it on (yet) is the typing. To me, it just doesn't seem that the typing could pull this ability off. It's obviously perfect for our CAP, and I don't think it would be broken at all. Clefable has less weaknesses than our CAP and isn't broken, so why would our CAP be broken with Magic Guard? really, it comes down to flavor for me.

 

[Mattman324]

Also, if we're doing custom abilities, I have one.
Reverse Psychology: When an opponent uses Trick, Switcheroo, Skill Swap, Role Play, Confuse Ray, Taunt, Encore or Torment, this Pokemon manipulates the other Pokemon into experiencing the effects of that move. Essentially, this means that Trick, Switcheroo, Skill Swap and Role Play do nothing (as you give their item/ability right back to them automatically), while the opponent is Taunted, Encored and Tormented if they try to inflict those conditions on you. This ability does not work on Leech Seed or any visible status (Burn, Paralysis, etc)

I like the idea behind this one. It seems best paired with Guts, though. That way, the only secondary move it doesn't stop with it's abilities is Leech Seed, and the only common users of that are Shamin-S (Uber), Pyroak (if he chooses to use it), and Celebi.

 

[Janenmori]

Due to the obvious nature of what this CaP is intended to do, Magic Guard makes a lot of sense. Sticky Hold would also help it accomplish its goal. While reading the posts above I also liked the idea of an "auto-Magic Coat". That would easily block most non-attacking moves. To build on this idea, an "auto-Taunt" ability would also be quite gamebreaking, but perhaps to gamebreaking.

 

[FlareBlitz]

@Mattman
I thought Reverse Psychology might be a little broken if it also applied to burn/toxic. But since people apparently think that an auto-magic coat would not be broken, I'd say that would be an acceptable change to the ability, since it would pretty much do the same thing as "auto magic coat" but with a much cooler name.

 

[Tacho]

I am in full agreement with the auto magic coat ability as a primary/only ability. I think it should be named dark armor too :)

 

[Umbreon Dan]

having considered everything that's been posted, i'm really loving beej's auto magic coat. frankly, auto-magic coat could result in immediate, harsh consequences for any user of status moves. compare this to something like poison heal: poison heal only grants you a free switch-in (assuming you've already been poisoned...) without actually causing any harm to the opponent. while some of the other suggestions are good, like guts, i really think that this custom ability is the clear best.

 

[Indragon]

Guts and Insomnia seem good ideas since they prevent any statuses from adversely affecting CAP9. Poison Heal is another good ability, though the fact that the item will have to be a Toxic Orb hurts a bit.

As for Quick Feet, the ability is quite pointless. CAP9 is immune to TWave, the most common source for paralysis and toxic, while giving it a Speed boost, will severly hamper its longevity. And if you're looking for a burn, what's the point of halving your attack just to get a speed boost?

 

[Azule]

I'm completely taken in by Auto Magic-Coat; the basic idea of being immune to status, and reflecting it back at the opposing Pokemon which uses it gives it a key bonus to Stopping the secondary. Then, it just has to deal with Leech Seed, Encore, etc.

 

[Raikaria]

At the suggestions so far, since my last post, of non-custom abilties (Most of which are overpowered anyway, or just stupid)

Arena Trap: What do you want to do? Stop the main reason we made the CAP Dark type from working? (Persuit) Sure, Latias, Rotom, and Gengar are all immune to it, but it's still stopping hard hits on the likes of Celebi, Starmie, ect, ect.

Magic Guard: With the way the spreads are leaning, there is no question that Magic Guard would be dreadfully overpowered. Life Orb would have no recoil, and combined with the power, STAB types, and stat spread that this CAP is going to have, that would just push it way too far.

Insomina only stops one status. I would rather something like Posion Heal, Quick Feet, Guts, or Marvel Scale to it.

Speaking of, Quick Feet is a poor idea, because of the high speed this CAP seems to be getting. (Base 115-130 seems to be batted around a lot). Sure, it'll be like a Choice Scarf without the Choice part, but, you gotta ask, would there be a point? CAP9 would already be bulky enough to take Heatran's Fire Blasts, is simmune to Jolteon's Thunderbolts, and resists Gengar's Shadow Balls. Nothing else really is common, and would ever outspeed a Base 115/130 Speed pokemon, the exception being something like +1 DD Mance, who CAP 9 wouldn't stop anyway.

Now, to the Customs:

Auto Magic Coat is almost as bad as Magic Guard. Bouncing back any and all status, constantly? That's just overpowered, especially as this CAP is bulky, and strong. Even Thunder Waves would be bounced back, which the CAP is usually immune to.

Deck Knight's idea... is kinda not Overpowered. I guess, if the effects cannot be applied to one side, the ability is negated. (Ie: Thunder Wave. CAP9 can't be paralysed by it. As the ability can't effect both sides, the ability dosen't activate. Or, Rocks are already up on the foe's side. They use SR. Ability will not activate. Rocks will go up on your side.) However, Deck Knight has not stated why this ability is more viable than those that already exist, such as Guts, Posion Heal, and Marvel Scale, especially as these Stop the Secondary from effecting CAP9, while Strikes Back would be situational at best.

 

[Objection]

Arena Trap: What do you want to do? Stop the main reason we made the CAP Dark type from working? (Persuit) Sure, Latias, Rotom, and Gengar are all immune to it, but it's still stopping hard hits on the likes of Celebi, Starmie, ect, ect.

And Jirachi and Blissey and Breloom and Forretress and Torment Heatran and ... oh wait, none of those grounded secondary effect abusers would fear Pursuit with the possible exception of Blissey, but base 255 HP allows her to avoid OHKOs from unboosted neutral physical attacks even with base 10 defence.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Advocating Poison Heal for the following reasons:

Firstly, I think it's the best ability for the job. One switch-in guarantees it immunity to all status, and allows it to heal even during Hail, though this is irrelevant since most Hail teams will have plenty of Ice attacks to use. On the subject of dodging status, I would consider it superior to Magic Guard, since Magic Guard, while avoiding damaging status does have the unfortunate inability to wholly protect from Burns; it will still keep the damage reduction, making it far less easy to use Pursuit and Earthquake to their maximum effect. Poison Heal allows CAP9 to block all status moves and the side-effects attached to them.

Secondly, it has no negative side-effect. For Guts, Marvel Scale and Quick Feet, there is still the damaging side-effect of Burns and Poison to consider, drastically lowering the amount of playing time available for CAP9, even more crippling when you consider the many weaknesses its typing brings. Poison Heal has no negative side-effect, and its healing effect partially mitigates the many weaknesses it has, meaning there is less need to run so much Defense in a stat spread.

Thirdly, it has no offensive implications; we have already given it a great offensive typing, it doesn't need a boost from Guts or a Speed Boost from Quick Feet, and what we really don't want CAP9 to turn into is another generic sweeper Pokemon. The fact that you have to run Toxic Orb could actually be considered an asset; we are keeping this Pokemon's offensive prowess down considerably, and redirecting it towards the job it needs to do.

Lastly, I would not consider it as broken as, say, auto-Magic Coat, which seems to be the new favourite. Bouncing back status moves seems slightly overkill, to be honest, whereas simply absorbing them would appear to be sufficient.

 

[Sir-half]

some others to think about
Synchronize, it might habe been mentioned already but whatever...
Immunity, although poison heal is the generally better option
and unburden which I believe activates on trick

EDIT: Took out Rough Skin, and tinted lens, (I dont remember why I put them in, and Objection objected)

 

[Objection]

Sir-half, I don't think you quite get what the concept is about. Tinted Lens is in no way relevant to stopping the secondary and the fact that Rough Skin penalises the player for using attacks will make people use secondary effects even more.

 

[Deck Knight]

Now, to the Customs:

Auto Magic Coat is almost as bad as Magic Guard. Bouncing back any and all status, constantly? That's just overpowered, especially as this CAP is bulky, and strong. Even Thunder Waves would be bounced back, which the CAP is usually immune to.

Deck Knight's idea... is kinda not Overpowered. I guess, if the effects cannot be applied to one side, the ability is negated. (Ie: Thunder Wave. CAP9 can't be paralysed by it. As the ability can't effect both sides, the ability dosen't activate. Or, Rocks are already up on the foe's side. They use SR. Ability will not activate. Rocks will go up on your side.) However, Deck Knight has not stated why this ability is more viable than those that already exist, such as Guts, Posion Heal, and Marvel Scale, especially as these Stop the Secondary from effecting CAP9, while Strikes Back would be situational at best.

Both Beej's and my abilities only activate on the turn you switch in. They are not constantly in effect. The idea is to play off an opponent using what they consider a free switch to cripple them or use their own strategy against them.

As for my ability, the idea is it would perform a typeless effect% check on the opponent's side. So for instance Spore would sleep both active pokemon 100% of the time, Sleep Powder would do a 75% sleep check, and Thunder Wave would do a paralysis check on its own user.

I know its all theoretical but the coding would be something like "If attack targets opponent and Base Power = 0 and Effect % > 0, Apply Effect % to attacking and defending sides." I'm pretty sure this means you could Toxic Poison Steel pokemon, since Twineedle (Bug Move) can still regular poison them, IIRC.

 

[Naxte]

Magic Guard: With the way the spreads are leaning, there is no question that Magic Guard would be dreadfully overpowered. Life Orb would have no recoil, and combined with the power, STAB types, and stat spread that this CAP is going to have, that would just push it way too far.

I see people saying this, but I really haven't heard why. We're not considering giving Magic Guard to some sort of Clefable evolution--we're considering giving it to CAP9, an entirely different thing from Clefable. Plus, even Clefable as it is, with Softboiled, Wish, and only one weakness is still not OU. Thus, who could say how things would wind up if we gave it to a Pokemon with 5 weaknesses and no instant recovery move, but better stats? Either way you go, it's just theorymon, with only baseless speculation and fears against it. Thus, unless there actually is some valid reasoning for taking it off the table other than "well, it might turn out to be a complete monster for all we know", I'd prefer it to be kept as an option.

 

[Deck Knight]

I see people saying this, but I really haven't heard why. We're not considering giving Magic Guard to some sort of Clefable evolution--we're considering giving it to CAP9, an entirely different thing from Clefable. Plus, even Clefable as it is, with Softboiled, Wish, and only one weakness is still not OU. Thus, who could say how things would wind up if we gave it to a Pokemon with 5 weaknesses and no instant recovery move, but better stats? Either way you go, it's just theorymon, with only baseless speculation and fears against it. Thus, unless there actually is some valid reasoning for taking it off the table other than "well, it might turn out to be a complete monster for all we know", I'd prefer it to be kept as an option.

How about having terrible speed, poor offensive capability without increasing it with Belly Drum or Calm Mind (No Special STAB outside Hyper Beam), and Normal being a downright terrible STAB in a metagame full of Tyranitar, Steel Types, and Rotom-A?

You cannot seriously believe a pokemon that gets 1.3x damage on a STAB that cannot hit anything for Super-Effective Damage off a poor base attack and mediocre SA is remotely comparable to a Pokemon that can do it with two of the most useful STABs in the metagame, and by all current spreads somewhere in the ballpark of 120 Base Atk and 100 Base Spe. The hell do you need a recovery move for when you've got after-STAB effective 195 BP Earthquake, 156 BP Crunch/Sucker Punch/fleeing Pursuit, and 156 BP Fire Blast/Blizzard/other coverage move at your disposal. All Magic Guard does is turn this into a first-order sweeper.

 

[Azule]

My suggestion is Magic Coat on the switch

Its a less-broken version of the Auto-magic coat ability.

If people are concerned about Auto-Magic coat, this seems to be the best solution.

 

[Naxte]

How about having terrible speed, poor offensive capability without increasing it with Belly Drum or Calm Mind (No Special STAB outside Hyper Beam), and Normal being a downright terrible STAB in a metagame full of Tyranitar, Steel Types, and Rotom-A?

You cannot seriously believe a pokemon that gets 1.3x damage on a STAB that cannot hit anything for Super-Effective Damage off a poor base attack and mediocre SA is remotely comparable to a Pokemon that can do it with two of the most useful STABs in the metagame, and by all current spreads somewhere in the ballpark of 120 Base Atk and 100 Base Spe. The hell do you need a recovery move for when you've got after-STAB effective 195 BP Earthquake, 156 BP Crunch/Sucker Punch/fleeing Pursuit, and 156 BP Fire Blast/Blizzard/other coverage move at your disposal. All Magic Guard does is turn this into a first-order sweeper.

Well, I suppose I wasn't considering the attacking-types or anything. My thinking was pretty much just that the life-orb recoil isn't typically accounted for in picking a check/counter for a Pokemon, as you can't rely on that damage being there (the Pokemon might use a support move or it might be holding a different item). Thus, I didn't consider the loss of the Life Orb recoil too significant. The closest stuff we actually have for reference to Recoiless Life Orb is stuff weaker than it (Expert Belt), stuff stronger than it, but unreliable (Download Porygon-Z), and stuff that's flat out stronger (Soul Dew--the difference between it and Life Orb's boost is greater than the difference between Life Orb's and the Expert Belt's). Putting all that together, despite all the screaming over it, I couldn't convince myself that that wasn't just theorymon, due to such a thing not actually having been seen yet, and thus, despite it certainly being a powerful aspect of the ability, I hardly found myself convinced as of yet of its potential of actually making CAP9 broken.

Beyond that, really, I was really just considering Magic Guard's aspects as they relate to this concept and didn't focus on the Life Orb aspect that much. To me, mainly I was just seeing Magic Guard as a way to pick up what's essentially a Poison immunity, while avoiding taking entry hazard damage as well. Thus, I was considering stuff like Guts being superior to it (in the scope of the concept), since Guts both negates the attack-drop of Burn and also makes Poison desirable for it as well. For the same reasoning, Poison Heal and Auto-Magic Coat were sounding better to me. Thus, in my head, I had already put down Magic Guard as a more inferior choice in the scope of the concept as compared to some others. Since I was mainly focusing on those aspects of Magic Guard, and not so much the Life Orb one, it annoyed me to see Magic Guard put up so high, and thus I responded as I did.

As I've explained though, Magic Guard wouldn't be my first choice for CAP9 even under that line of thinking anyway, so I suppose it doesn't matter too much. Guts, Poison Heal, and Auto-Magic Coat are all more appealing to me anyway, so the issue of what affects Magic Guard would actually have on a Pokemon as CAP9 are quite beside the point, since it's not the option either of us are most interested in giving to CAP9, and thus it isn't really worth the time to dwell on it here.

EDIT: AlphaBravo's ability is exactly the same as Beej's Auto-Magic Coat--both only take affect on the switch. Neither of them have anything to do with having a constant Magic Coat on or anything.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Alright, I'm just going to list the topic's reasons for MG being broken, or not being broken.

Not Broken: Clefable is not OU, Magic Guard still has Burn attack drop, it works to stop the secondary, this Pokemon is weak to 5 common types anyway, sleep and freeze still effect this guy, etc.

Broken: Clefable is hardly a good example as it is walled by most top OU players, and is swept by Ape, Champ, Scizor, and more, has bad STAB and lack of decent STAB on its stronger offensive end (despite free LOnch,) Magic Guard on a Pokemon with two great sweeping types and bulky sweeper stat builds means Life Orb mania, etc.

I say that Deck Knight's arguments are convincing me more. As most people aren't suggesting stat builds like those of an inferior T-Tar, we are mainly suggesting builds with +100 speed (so it can make use of STAB,) and decent defenses, essentially, a bulky sweeper.

However, I like the idea of Magic Switch Coat. Very interesting, not exactly overpowered (though how would this affect a statused Pokemon using status we would have to determine,) and a pretty nice custom ability.

Also, I like Reverse Psychology. It's another great idea, and it really helps stop the secondary. (And yes, it fits my final entry, a Chessmaster Pokemon, pretty well. It also fits a lot of entries well.)

-Torterra-Infernape-Feraligatr-

 

[tennisace]

Do not post new abilities without significant justification.

 

[Magmortified]

I think some people are misinterpreting Auto-Magic Coat. The basic idea behind this is that we would make an ability that mimics Magic Coat's effect in some way. When it applies and what it applies to can be changed as needed. Currently, it seems like most people are backing "Only applies on the switch" and I can agree with that. It works without being broken, though it'd probably require a lot of prediction to work correctly (for this reason, I think that including a secondary ability such as Guts could make a fair compromise between risk and rewards).

Auto-Magic Coat does not necessarily mean "Reflects everything automatically all the time." I'm not sure it ever did except by assumption.

 

[Illithian]

Auto Magic Coat is almost as bad as Magic Guard. Bouncing back any and all status, constantly? That's just overpowered, especially as this CAP is bulky, and strong. Even Thunder Waves would be bounced back, which the CAP is usually immune to.

Did you even read the suggestion? It ONLY would work on switches, which isn't broken at all, and makes perfect sense for this concept.

Read:

Auto-Magic Coat (this obviously wouldn't be the name): This is definitely my favorite idea, assuming the mechanic is that the ability activates on switches only. Hypothetical scenario: Your bulky lead is at a disadvantage against a faster sleeper lead, like Roserade, Smeargle or Breloom. Switch in CAP9 on their respective sleep move and watch the tables turn completely. Is a Rotom spamming WoW? Switch in CAP9 with impunity and threaten to ruin it with <Dark STAB>. This ability means that our Pokemon can switch into any status abuser short of Body Slam Jirachi and completely flip the tables on them, and with the type of Pokemon we're creating here, CAP9 will hopefully also threaten to pseudo-trap a majority of these status abusers with Pursuit. In addition, this grants CAP9 an immunity to Leech Seed on the switch, which will be very handy assuming one of the massive HP spreads wins.

God I hate people that criticize before they even look at the ability. =.=