CaP Prevos - Movepool Updates

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributor
Orange Islands
Hi All,

I've finally got some time to get this sorted.

CaP Prevos can finally commence movepool updates following all of the CaP Propers being fully updated to include IoA Tutor moves. I would like to do movepool passes over all of the pre-Gen 8 prevos, and hopefully some of the super talented movepool makers can "adjust" some of the levels so they match up better with their parents. Currently most prevos are still on their Gen 7 movesets with maybe some Gen 8 added Egg Moves. I want to get these fully updated as the next part of CaP. The exception to this ofcourse would be already Gen 8 babies.

I'm making this thread for two reasons, A) to kick off this entire process and B) to get some quick ideas on what people would like to see. I feel like we could do a lot of this on Discord (I can get a channel made up for this), the main issue with this is that I am European and I know a lot of the CaP Regulars are American, so discussion time with me would be limited. I'm open to ideas on this one. We can make every movepool as a thread, or we can just discuss what would need to be removed from a parents movepool on Discord and go to a thread from there.

I do know that Nohface, Monohm and Duohm, Protowatt and our latest bouncing baby, Dorsoil all need movepools created from their parents. I think the easiest way to do this is to just make them as Gen 8 movepools and ignore the fact that they "existed" before. Obviously, we can go backwards at some point if we would like, but I think for right now to get them playable, we should just use their parents' Gen 8 movepools and create from there. This would finally complete the Gen 4 prevos.

I've spoken to a few people and they have highlighted some moves already which may be problematic to "Gen 8 CaPLC". One of these has already been half solved in that Cawmodore has had Belly Drum moved to an Evo move, which would allow us to remove it from Cawdet. I don't think many transfer moves of note would be lost outside of things like Toxic, but obviously Drum Cawdet was an issue previously to the point where it was "soft banned". I've also had Syclar mentioned to me as potential issues for CaPLC (Syclar's Physical movepool making it very difficult to handle). We would need to decide how we want to handle moves/scenarios like this. Especially where we have the opportunity to remove them entirely from the mon (or make some sort of complex ban because of it). If we decide no transfers, we screw Necturine but fix Cawdet for example.

All of the other prevos: Syclar, Embirch, Flarelm, Breezi, Rebble, Tactite, Privatyke, Voodoll, Scratchet, Necturine, Cupra, Argalis, Brattler, Cawdet, Volkritter, Snugglow, Floatoy, Caimanoe, Pluffle, Mumbao, Fawnifer, Electrelk, Smogecko, Smoguana, Swirlpool, Coribalis and Justyke will need to have updates completed and then put into Showdown. This is going to be a lot of work even after we manage to decide how we want to do this as the coding is not easy. These movepool passes should be much easier to complete as we have history of their existence and the new movepools from their parents. There's no strict time frame on this, but I can't see us taking much more than till the end of April to get this sorted.

I want to be clear here as well: The scope of this is just movepools. We aren't looking at power levels or ability changes at this time.

Let's get this done!
 

Brambane

burn the midnight oil
is a Contributor Alumnus
YES, let's do this!

We have been testing CAP LC a fair bit and talking on Discord on the state of the meta; Zephyri is assembling resources for new players. In regards to problematic moves that already exist on a Pokemon (Belly Drum Cawdet for example) I think the solution of moving the problem move to evolution only is the easiest and most elegant. The CAP LC creations, for the most part, haven't been put up to the same competitive scrutiny as their evolutions. I think complex bans are always kind of unappealing, and we are in the unique situation where we can actually fix these problems without banning the mons themselves since the meta doesn't formally exist yet. A lot of the appeal of CAP is being able to use the Pokemon CAP created; I don't see CAP LC being much different in that regards. Thankfully aside from Cawdet the only Pokemon I am really worried about is SD Syclar, and to be fair thats only because movepool updates have Icicle Spear/Triple Axel on the table. Solotl is also menace, but there is more involved with that than just movepool alone; imo Solotl would be better addressed later as its own thing after all the mons have been updated/implemented and meta has a chance to settle. Even though we are testing already, we are still working without some notable mons (Dorsoil and Nohface specifically.)

As for movepools, I would be more interested personally in seeing them posted here if for nothing else other than documentation and transparency of the process. I agree for newer babies just using their Gen 8 movepools. It makes things really easy, too. I.e., I just copied Colossoil's Gen 8 learnset from its update thread and trimmed away the bad flavor to create an example for Dorsoil (the only move it MIGHT miss competitively is Fire Fang, but even that is a stretch.) If you are going to post a movepool, you should be required to post the evo for comparison to make sure it looks consistent with the evolutionary line. I think we should avoid adding any moves to the EVOs whenever possible.

1 - Drill Run
1 - High Horsepower
1 - Leer
1 - Peck
5 - Horn Attack
10 - Bite
16 - Mud-Slap
21 - Rapid Spin
26 - Fury Attack
32 - Strength
37 - Knock Off
42 - Body Slam
48 - Bounce
53 - Stockpile
53 - Swallow
53 - Spit Up
58 - Crunch
64 - Megahorn
69 - Giga Impact
74 - Horn Drill
Egg - Double-Edge
Egg - Fake Out
Egg - Fissure
Egg - Flail
Egg - Sucker Punch
TM/TR - Hyper Beam
TM/TR - Giga Impact
TM/TR - Dig
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Rock Slide
TM/TR - Snore
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Attract
TM/TR - Sandstorm
TM/TR - Rain Dance
TM/TR - Sunny Day
TM/TR - Facade
TM/TR - Brick Break
TM/TR - Dive
TM/TR - Rock Tomb
TM/TR - Sand Tomb
TM/TR - Bounce
TM/TR - U-turn
TM/TR - Payback
TM/TR - Thunder Fang
TM/TR - Fire Fang
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - Retaliate
TM/TR - Bulldoze
TM/TR - Snarl
TM/TR - Smart Strike
TM/TR - Brutal Swing
TM/TR - Earthquake
TM/TR - Substitute
TM/TR - Endure
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Encore
TM/TR - Iron Tail
TM/TR - Taunt
TM/TR - Superpower
TM/TR - Dark Pulse
TM/TR - Earth Power
TM/TR - Stone Edge
TM/TR - Foul Play
TM/TR - Drill Run
TM/TR - Body Press
1 - Leer
1 - Sand Tomb
5 - Endure
10 - Dig
16 - Mud-Slap
21 - Rapid Spin
26 - Bulldoze
32 - Strength
36 - Knock Off
40 - Body Slam
45 - Bounce
51 - Stockpile
51 - Swallow
51 - Spit Up
56 - Earthquake
Egg - Double-Edge
Egg - Fake Out
Egg - Fissure
Egg - Flail
Egg - Sucker Punch
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Rock Slide
TM/TR - Snore
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Attract
TM/TR - Sandstorm
TM/TR - Rain Dance
TM/TR - Sunny Day
TM/TR - Facade
TM/TR - Brick Break
TM/TR - Dive
TM/TR - Rock Tomb
TM/TR - Bounce
TM/TR - U-turn
TM/TR - Payback
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - Retaliate
TM/TR - Earthquake
TM/TR - Substitute
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Encore
TM/TR - Iron Tail
TM/TR - Taunt
TM/TR - Superpower
TM/TR - Earth Power
TM/TR - Stone Edge
TM/TR - Foul Play
TM/TR - Body Press

For the CAP prevos with existing movepools, pretty much the same thing but also trimming transfer moves as well and double checking we aren't accidentally cutting away anything already implemented in their movepools on Showdown. I don't see many Gen 8 movepool additions being that disgusting for CAP LC mons with the exception of the aforementioned Icicle Spear/Triple Axel Syclar, so that is one that would for sure require actual discussion. I would prefer doing this on a forum thread because 1. Forum Activity for CAP LC is a better way to generate interest in the format and CAP as a whole, 2. Transparency and Documentation, and 3. LC calcs for multi-hit moves are hilarious.
 
I've only really passively followed CAP LC (I have no regular LC experience, and have mostly followed along with conversations on Discord), so I don't have any super strong opinions on changing things for the sake of CAP LC. I'd like to keep the flavor as believable as possible, but I am also also fine with doing small readjustments to movepools to keep particular prevos in line. On the issue of transferring, I'm not sure if I'm interpreting things correctly, but I'd honestly prefer if we allowed transfers, while axing some of the problematic moves on the prevos; this complicates things for CAP LC, but also stays consistent with how things are with regular LC Pokemon.
Brambane makes a good case for doing everything on the forums, and it's also a little more timezone agnostic. I'd be OK with a Discord approach, but the forums are fine for me as well. I also agree with the initial proposal to just do Gen 8 movepools for the Gen 4 Pokemon that need them to make things easier on ourselves.
One small nitpick that I wanted to bring up, since if it needs resolution, we could do it here: after Miasmaw got changes through the post-play lookback (Aromatherapy, Sludge Bomb, Poison Jab, +3 speed), Miasmite got those moves added to its movepool but not the speed. Should we do anything with these moves? None of them stand out as particularly bad flavor, and I'd be fine with keeping Miasmite the way it is now; I just wanted to get some thoughts on this.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One for All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I am really glad we have started the process of revamping movepools for LCs, and I am of the agreement that we should definitely go incomplete Gen 4 CAPrevos then the rest. Maybe a compromise could be that the more challenging Gen 4 mons could be done on forums, since we are building full movepools from scratch, and then the rest get the same treatment as the CAPs did in regards to updates, as we have already proven that this can be an efficient way of handling it.
 
I'm excited to finally start seeing some prevo movepools!

I don't think it'll make CAP LC players very happy, but one big thing I was hoping to see with these would be Protowatt getting a short movepool like Tynamo and Beldum, with limited TMs/TRs, relying mostly on just the base level up (and in this case, Egg moves) for its movepool.

One small nitpick that I wanted to bring up, since if it needs resolution, we could do it here: after Miasmaw got changes through the post-play lookback (Aromatherapy, Sludge Bomb, Poison Jab, +3 speed), Miasmite got those moves added to its movepool but not the speed. Should we do anything with these moves? None of them stand out as particularly bad flavor, and I'd be fine with keeping Miasmite the way it is now; I just wanted to get some thoughts on this.
I think Miasmite is fine with these changes. The moves feel like they are fine flavour, and the lack of the speed increase fits with its steep drop in speed compared to Miasmaw. It just now gains +58 on evolution instead of +55.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Oh hey we are finally doing this.

So while I could talk about the Cawdet deal, which I think should be resolved by making it the evo move and just eating the complex ban, or talking about which ones to do first, I'm going to talk about how we are going to approach this and why doing it all over the forums is a very bad idea.

Now for Nohface, Monohm, Duclohm, Protowatt, and Dorsoil, we should obviously do them over the forums. They still have entire movepool stages that need to be completed and abandoning our submission format for those for the sake of speed is losing the heart of CAP. Its the other that are more problematic.

You see, Movepool Updates are mostly a matter of momentum and if we want to get this done by the End of April, I think we won't be able to maintain that momentum if we want to do it all over the forums, especially if we make a thread for each individual CAP Prevo or CAP prevo line. I definetely agree with G-Luke on the idea that we need to do these over Discord, as that will let us set specific days for us to tackle these movepool updates similar to Gen 8 updates proper, although we should be able to get through most of them faster. If timezones regarding DHR are an issue, than mods should be able to step in to assist.

If we still do want to do these updates entirely over the forums, then I recommend condensing the prevos into groups, most easily by generation. That way, if a discussion is dying down on a certain line we can easily just transition over to another without disregarding the prevo in question.
 
I wholeheartedly agree on making Cawmodore's Belly Drum an evo move that gets removed from Cawdet.

Also, I would prefer finishing the recent prevos' movepools on the forums. We need to have an archive for them somewhere that can be reviewed later. However, we should update the already-completed prevos via Discord so we can have a sense of momentum.
 

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributor
Orange Islands
Hey all,

With some help from some of you guys I've managed to work out what the "Correct" movepools should be currently for both Syclar and Syclant. I'm doing this more of a proof of concept so we can all get on the right track when we do this properly. Snapped moves should be obvious, but there is some odd stuff with Egg Moves that Dogfish44 might need to take a look at.

Syclant
Evo - Ice Punch
Lv 1 - Fell Stinger
Lv 1 - Icicle Spear
Lv 1 - Counter
Lv 1 - Absorb
Lv 1 - Leer
Lv 5 - Ice Shard
Lv 10 - Focus Energy
Lv 14 - Fury Attack
Lv 19 - Icy Wind
Lv 23 - Fury Cutter
Lv 28 - Slash
Lv 32 - X Scissor
Lv 37 - Hail
Lv 41 - Icicle Crash
Lv 46 - Bug Buzz
Lv 50 - Avalanche
Lv 55 - Sheer Cold
Counter
Double Edge
Earth Power
Fell Stinger
Mimic - G7
Pin Missile - G7
Spikes - G7
String Shot
Struggle Bug
Tail Glow - G7 - Snapped
Attract
Avalanche
Blizzard
Brick Break
Brutal Swing
Bug Buzz
Bulldoze
Earth Power
Earthquake
Endure
Facade
False Swipe
Fling
Focus Blast
Focus Energy
Giga Impact
Hail
Hyper Beam
Ice Beam
Ice Fang
Ice Punch
Icicle Spear
Icy Wind
Leech Life
Mega Punch
Metronome
Nasty Plot
Pin Missile
Protect
Rain Dance
Rest
Rock Slide
Round
Screech
Sleep Talk
Snore
Spikes
Stone Edge
Substitute
Super Power
Swift
Swords Dance
Taunt
U Turn
X Scissor
Dual Wingbeat
Skittersmack
Triple Axel
Bug Bite
Captivate - Snapped
Confide
Cut
Double Team
Focus Punch
Frost Breath
Frustration - Snapped
Hidden Power - Snapped
Hone Claws
Natural Gift - Snapped
Return - Snapped
Rock Smash
Secret Power - Snapped
Signal Beam - Snapped
Silver Wind - Snapped
Strength
Swagger
Toxic
Water Pulse

I think this is as up to date and accurate as I can make it. There's some odd conflicts for levels stuff is learnt (The stuff here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap-1-syclant.3658952/#post-8350246 has a number of errors and doesn't include Transfer moves).

Fortunately, Syclar did get update in gen 7, which makes this next bit a fair bit easier.

Lv 1 - Ice Punch -- Now Evo Move
Lv 1 - Absorb
Lv 1 - Leer
Lv 5 - Ice Shard
Lv 10 - Focus Energy
Lv 14 - Fury Attack
Lv 19 - Icy Wind
Lv 23 - Fury Cutter
Lv 28 - Slash
Lv 31 - X Scissor
Lv 34 - Hail
Lv 39 - Icicle Crash
Lv 43 - Bug Buzz
Lv 48 - Avalanche
Lv 55 - Sheer Cold
Counter - +G8
Double Edge - +G8
Earth Power - +G8
Fell Stinger - +G8
Mimic - G7
Pin Missile - G7
Spikes - G7
String Shot - +G8
Struggle Bug - +G8
Tail Glow - G7 - Snapped
Attract
Avalanche
Blizzard
Bug Buzz
Earth Power
Endure
Facade
False Swipe
Fling
Focus Energy
Hail
Ice Beam
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Leech Life
Pin Missile
Protect
Rain Dance
Rest
Round
Sleep Talk
Snore
Spikes
Substitute
Super Power
Swords Dance
Taunt
U Turn
X Scissor
TBD
Bug Bite
Captivate - Snapped
Confide
Cut
Double Team
Frost Breath
Frustration - Snapped
Hidden Power- Snapped
Hone Claws
Natural Gift- Snapped
Return - Snapped
Rock Smash
Secret Power- Snapped
Signal Beam - Snapped
Silver Wind - Snapped
Strength
Swagger
Toxic
Water Pulse

The above would be Syclars movepool with zero changes from Gen 7, now we have a pool of moves available to us to add:

Counter
Fell Stinger

Brick Break
Brutal Swing
Bulldoze
Earthquake
Focus Blast
Focus Punch
Giga Impact
Hyper Beam
Ice Fang
Icicle Spear
Mega Punch
Metronome
Nasty Plot
Rock Slide
Screech
Stone Edge
Swift

Dual Wingbeat
Skittersmack
Triple Axel

I think this is everything which Syclant has and Syclar doesn't. If someone wants to double check this, please do. I know kjnjkmjk1 and Brambane have mentioned a few of these moves being absurd already. Mostly Icicle Spear and Triple Axel (both of which I don't think fit Syclar very well anyway). I think with a few of these easier ones, posting them like this and then having a planned discussion on Discord might be the easiest and fastest way to get them sorted so we can move onto the next one. I think most of the Gen 7+ babies will be significantly easier, but there are always hiccups.
 
Last edited:

MrDollSteak

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Hey all,

With some help from some of you guys I've managed to work out what the "Correct" movepools should be currently for both Syclar and Syclant. I'm doing this more of a proof of concept so we can all get on the right track when we do this properly. Snapped moves should be obvious, but there is some odd stuff with Egg Moves that Dogfish44 might need to take a look at.

Syclant
Evo - Ice Punch
Lv 1 - Fell Stinger
Lv 1 - Icicle Spear
Lv 1 - Counter
Lv 1 - Absorb
Lv 1 - Leer
Lv 5 - Ice Shard
Lv 10 - Focus Energy
Lv 14 - Fury Attack
Lv 19 - Icy Wind
Lv 23 - Fury Cutter
Lv 28 - Slash
Lv 32 - X Scissor
Lv 37 - Hail
Lv 41 - Icicle Crash
Lv 46 - Bug Buzz
Lv 50 - Avalanche
Lv 55 - Sheer Cold
Counter
Double Edge
Earth Power
Fell Stinger
Mimic - G7
Pin Missile - G7
Spikes - G7
String Shot
Struggle Bug
Tail Glow - G7 - Snapped
Attract
Avalanche
Blizzard
Brick Break
Brutal Swing
Bug Buzz
Bulldoze
Earth Power
Earthquake
Endure
Facade
False Swipe
Fling
Focus Blast
Focus Energy
Giga Impact
Hail
Hyper Beam
Ice Beam
Ice Fang
Ice Punch
Icicle Spear
Icy Wind
Leech Life
Mega Punch
Metronome
Nasty Plot
Pin Missile
Protect
Rain Dance
Rest
Rock Slide
Round
Screech
Sleep Talk
Snore
Spikes
Stone Edge
Substitute
Super Power
Swift
Swords Dance
Taunt
U Turn
X Scissor
Dual Wingbeat
Skittersmack
Triple Axel
Bug Bite
Captivate - Snapped
Confide
Cut
Double Team
Focus Punch
Frost Breath
Frustration - Snapped
Hidden Power - Snapped
Hone Claws
Natural Gift - Snapped
Return - Snapped
Rock Smash
Secret Power - Snapped
Signal Beam - Snapped
Silver Wind - Snapped
Strength
Swagger
Toxic
Water Pulse

I think this is as up to date and accurate as I can make it. There's some odd conflicts for levels stuff is learnt (The stuff here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap-1-syclant.3658952/#post-8350246 has a number of errors and doesn't include Transfer moves).

Fortunately, Syclar did get update in gen 7, which makes this next bit a fair bit easier.

Lv 1 - Ice Punch -- Now Evo Move
Lv 1 - Absorb
Lv 1 - Leer
Lv 5 - Ice Shard
Lv 10 - Focus Energy
Lv 14 - Fury Attack
Lv 19 - Icy Wind
Lv 23 - Fury Cutter
Lv 28 - Slash
Lv 31 - X Scissor
Lv 34 - Hail
Lv 39 - Icicle Crash
Lv 43 - Bug Buzz
Lv 48 - Avalanche
Lv 55 - Sheer Cold
Counter - +G8
Double Edge - +G8
Earth Power - +G8
Fell Stinger - +G8
Mimic - G7
Pin Missile - G7
Spikes - G7
String Shot - +G8
Struggle Bug - +G8
Tail Glow - G7 - Snapped
Attract
Avalanche
Blizzard
Bug Buzz
Earth Power
Endure
Facade
False Swipe
Fling
Focus Energy
Hail
Ice Beam
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Leech Life
Pin Missile
Protect
Rain Dance
Rest
Round
Sleep Talk
Snore
Spikes
Substitute
Super Power
Swords Dance
Taunt
U Turn
X Scissor
TBD
Bug Bite
Captivate - Snapped
Confide
Cut
Double Team
Focus Punch
Frost Breath
Frustration - Snapped
Hidden Power- Snapped
Hone Claws
Natural Gift- Snapped
Return - Snapped
Rock Smash
Secret Power- Snapped
Signal Beam - Snapped
Silver Wind - Snapped
Strength
Swagger
Toxic
Water Pulse

The above would be Syclars movepool with zero changes from Gen 7, now we have a pool of moves available to us to add:

Counter
Fell Stinger

Brick Break
Brutal Swing
Bulldoze
Earthquake
Focus Blast
Giga Impact
Hyper Beam
Ice Fang
Icicle Spear
Mega Punch
Metronome
Nasty Plot
Rock Slide
Screech
Stone Edge
Swift

Dual Wingbeat
Skittersmack
Triple Axel

I think this is everything which Syclant has and Syclar doesn't. If someone wants to double check this, please do. I know kjnjkmjk1 and Brambane have mentioned a few of these moves being absurd already. Mostly Icicle Spear and Triple Axel (both of which I don't think fit Syclar very well anyway). I think with a few of these easier ones, posting them like this and then having a planned discussion on Discord might be the easiest and fastest way to get them sorted so we can move onto the next one. I think most of the Gen 7+ babies will be significantly easier, but there are always hiccups.
This looks great DHR, excellent work. The only thing that I think might make this process easier is including all the moves in one set code, kind of how they were portrayed in the final posts for the Gen 8 Updates such as the one below, granted it doesn't include IoA Tutor moves or Transfer moves:

Code:
1 - Counter
1 - Fell Stinger
1 - Icicle Spear
1 - Leer
1 - Absorb
1 - Ice Shard
1 - Focus Energy
14 - Fury Attack
19 - Icy Wind
23 - Fury Cutter
28 - Slash
30 - Ice Punch
32 - X-Scissor
37 - Hail
41 - Icicle Crash
46 - Bug Buzz
50 - Avalanche
55 - Sheer Cold
Egg - Counter
Egg - Struggle Bug
Egg - String Shot
Egg - Double-Edge
Egg - Earth Power
Egg - Fell Stinger
TM/TR - Mega Punch
TM/TR - Ice Punch
TM/TR - Pin Missile
TM/TR - Hyper Beam
TM/TR - Giga Impact
TM/TR - Screech
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Rock Slide
TM/TR - Snore
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Icy Wind
TM/TR - Attract
TM/TR - Rain Dance
TM/TR - Hail
TM/TR - Facade
TM/TR - Swift
TM/TR - Brick Break
TM/TR - Icicle Spear
TM/TR - U-turn
TM/TR - Fling
TM/TR - Avalanche
TM/TR - Ice Fang
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - Bulldoze
TM/TR - False Swipe
TM/TR - Brutal Swing
TM/TR - Swords Dance
TM/TR - Ice Beam
TM/TR - Blizzard
TM/TR - Earthquake
TM/TR - Focus Energy
TM/TR - Metronome
TM/TR - Leech Life
TM/TR - Substitute
TM/TR - Spikes
TM/TR - Endure
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Taunt
TM/TR - Superpower
TM/TR - X-Scissor
TM/TR - Bug Buzz
TM/TR - Focus Blast
TM/TR - Earth Power
TM/TR - Nasty Plot
TM/TR - Stone Edge

As for specific suggestions related to Syclar, I would suggest the removal of Ice Punch due to the way that Evo moves are generally handled (that is being unavailable on the prevos), and then the addition of Ice Fang, Dual Wingbeat, Skitter Smack and potentially Nasty Plot though I'm not convinced. Ice Fang would be an appropriate replacement for Ice Punch imo, and the other two are unproblematic IoA tutor moves. Nasty Plot as a TM/TR would be an easy enough addition as well.
 
Running through the list, these are my suggestions (mostly just putting this here until whenever discussion actually happens):
Level up: Keep the same from DHR's post. I think it's fine to leave off Fell Stinger and Counter off. While Icicle Spear would've been nice flavor, there's been some concerns from CAP LC about its power, and it's not close to being universal for Ice types anyways.
Egg Moves: Keep the same from DHR's post, besides removing Tail Glow, for obvious reasons.
TMs/TRs: Agree on Ice Fang being a good addition and substitute for Ice Punch, as well as Nasty Plot. I think Metronome, Rock Slide, Screech, and Swift can be inserted as well. I think Bulldoze could go on here as well, although I'm less sure.
IoA Tutors: agree on adding Skitter Smack. Dual Wingbeat is iffy for me because Syclar's wings are absolutely tiny, but given Game Freak's standard for wings, I guess I'd be OK with it. Also agree on excluding Triple Axel because it looks even less likely to pull of the move than Syclant does, in addition to CAP LC power concerns.
Transfer: Not sure how Focus Punch got on here, Syclar hasn't learned it in the past and there's no reason to give it now. Everything else looks fine to me from a flavor standpoint.
 
Last edited:

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributor
Orange Islands
Fixed the Focus Punch mention, you are correct in that it was never in Syclars movepool anyway. Not sure how that happened as my list doesn't mention it either.
 
I would suggest the removal of Ice Punch due to the way that Evo moves are generally handled (that is being unavailable on the prevos)
While I agree this change is fine for Syclar which lacks true fists, I want to note for future reference that this is not generally true: Bulbapedia has a list, with some examples being Pikachu - Thunder Punch, Shellder - Icicle Spear, Natu - Air Slash, Ralts/Kirlia - Dazzling Gleam.
 

MrDollSteak

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
While I agree this change is fine for Syclar which lacks true fists, I want to note for future reference that this is not generally true: Bulbapedia has a list, with some examples being Pikachu - Thunder Punch, Shellder - Icicle Spear, Natu - Air Slash, Ralts/Kirlia - Dazzling Gleam.
Great point! I meant on the level up movepool though, but I might still be wrong. Either case I think its fair for Ice Fang to replace Ice Punch on the LU itself.
 

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