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Chain Chomp
- Thread starter Surgo
- Start date
Well, actually, Chomp can't 2hko a special wall Togekiss, even with SR up and Sandstorm up.
259 attack vs 361 defense, 210 power(*1.3), 368 max HP: 38.32% - 45.11%
129 attack vs 361 defense, 210 power(*1.3), 368 max HP: 19.29% - 22.83%
That's a 228/252 HP/SDef+ Togekiss. Also consider the fact that on the second hit, Togekiss is most likey Roosting or Softboiling for its turn.
So then Garchomp uses Swords Dance when Registeel comes in and it KOs. Great.
By the time Togekiss finds out what Garchomp is carrying chances are it has eaten more than it takes to survive 2 consecutive Draco Meteors. It's not a counter.
Yes, Cresselia is a counter to this set. Thanks captain obvious.
EDIT: "All I've seen is Moonlight."
All I have seen on Shoddybattle is Resttalk.
By the time Togekiss finds out what Garchomp is carrying chances are it has eaten more than it takes to survive 2 consecutive Draco Meteors. It's not a counter.
Yes, Cresselia is a counter to this set. Thanks captain obvious.
EDIT: "All I've seen is Moonlight."
All I have seen on Shoddybattle is Resttalk.
Run Substitute ... =p
Every team I have made has had a solid Stealth Rocker, why am I going to stop using one, just to make it so I can't use this set.
Chances are...
Well you can't always assume chances are, since if the opponent goes off to calc a single move from that Garchomp to something else that isn't Togekiss, and finds out that it is a Chain Chomp,Togekiss won't really have a problem coming in next time. In one scenario, Garchomp hits Slowbro with Earthquake on the switch. The opponent figures out that the Garchomp takes Life Orb damage yet doesn't do much more than an Adamant Max natured one that isn't holding a Life Orb. The person concludes that it's a Chain Chomp and immediately runs off to Togekiss to absorb the Draco Meteor. You don't see non mixed chomps with low attack holding a Life Orb, except for probably Rest/Talking ones, who isn't gonna stay in on Slowbro anyways.
And basically, Sandstorm is there to prevent stuff that counters this from countering it
That not the point of what i said though........
I guess I should say you really would only reliably be able to use this as late sweeper ...just liek mst garchomp sets....
This to me is just a different way of doing it..
Actually according to the first page, Surgo said the Swords Dancing part, but he also said it was tl; dr (which is why I didn't read the conversation part) and the set description has you immediately Draco Meteeoring. I think the luring part kinda confused me.
I think a lot of you are missing the point and purpose of this set. That includes you Jibaku. From the first initial post:
Nowhere does it say the purpose of this Garchomp is to sweep everything. Nowhere does it say it's better than any other Garchomp set. If you'll notice, some of Garchomp's counters are used to counter other physical attackers as well. This means you use this Garchomp in the early or mid game to take out or cripple the defensive wall. That's it. If this Garchomp can do that then the set is a success because odds are there's nothing else to take other physical hits. You bring out your Tyranitar/Heracross/Whatever late and win the game. This is not a set designed to sweep and beat the shit out of everything. Yes there are certain counters but if you play this right your opponent still has to figure out which set you're running first.
Cresselia yes is the main counter to this set but you still have five other pokemon that you can use to deal with it! Again this is not a set designed to kill everything. If you want that go back to using SD/Outrage Garchomp.
Nowhere does it say the purpose of this Garchomp is to sweep everything. Nowhere does it say it's better than any other Garchomp set. If you'll notice, some of Garchomp's counters are used to counter other physical attackers as well. This means you use this Garchomp in the early or mid game to take out or cripple the defensive wall. That's it. If this Garchomp can do that then the set is a success because odds are there's nothing else to take other physical hits. You bring out your Tyranitar/Heracross/Whatever late and win the game. This is not a set designed to sweep and beat the shit out of everything. Yes there are certain counters but if you play this right your opponent still has to figure out which set you're running first.
Cresselia yes is the main counter to this set but you still have five other pokemon that you can use to deal with it! Again this is not a set designed to kill everything. If you want that go back to using SD/Outrage Garchomp.
I think this post needs to be put in the first page since it's the only thing that actually cleared this Garchomp's purpose for me. Thanks!
BTW, if I'm hoping I'm not doing something wrong / illegal by posting this here, but it seems to synchronize with the Garchomp in discussion.
It's a Salamence that has a similar purpose: To lure out Special Walls.
Salamence @ Life Orb
Nature: Naughty (not Lonely)
EVs: 60 ATK / 196 Sp.ATK / 252 Speed
- Brick Break
- Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor
- FILLER
The last move is filler simply because there are several options:
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake (coverage)
- Stone Edge (Gyarados / Togekiss)
Basically, it has to be used in the same manner as Chain Chomp; that being, Stealth Rock has to be in effect.
If SR is in effect, you can easilly 2HKO Blissey / Regice assuming you hit them with Brick Break on the switch.
If someone could run the numbers for other Special / Physical walls, that would also be appreciated.
Again, my sincerest aplogies if this was not meant to be posted here.
It's a Salamence that has a similar purpose: To lure out Special Walls.
Salamence @ Life Orb
Nature: Naughty (not Lonely)
EVs: 60 ATK / 196 Sp.ATK / 252 Speed
- Brick Break
- Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor
- FILLER
The last move is filler simply because there are several options:
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake (coverage)
- Stone Edge (Gyarados / Togekiss)
Basically, it has to be used in the same manner as Chain Chomp; that being, Stealth Rock has to be in effect.
If SR is in effect, you can easilly 2HKO Blissey / Regice assuming you hit them with Brick Break on the switch.
If someone could run the numbers for other Special / Physical walls, that would also be appreciated.
Again, my sincerest aplogies if this was not meant to be posted here.
However, this set manages to do exactly 53% to Bold 252/252 Blissey. After factoring in Lefties, that's a solid 2HKO.
Infact, SR isn't even needed to 2HKO it.
Besides, if it switches out, what will it switch to: A Physical Wall (in assumption that it's Physical Mence).
Simply Draco that thing to hell.
This also seems like a good idea aswell, however like Obi said, it depends on how much the 2HKO is, whether its 80 % damage or something like 51 % damage. I'm gonna have to look into this more to see if its viable or not. I'd also like to run some calcs on how much Brick Break/Dragon Claw does against Bliss after a DDance. The only problem with this idea is that Garchomp can easily OHKO or 2HKO its regular counter with Brick Break or Dragon Claw, whilst Salamence can only do this against Bliss (which will immediately switch out after Ddance) and get the fuk walled outta it by Cresselia (which is also a common switchin).
Like I said, it's 53% damage.
Basically:
Blissey at 100% upon entering
Blissey at 47% after BB on switch
Blissey at 53% after Lefties
Blissey at 0% next time it shows up vs. Mence.
I've done the Calcs with Dragon Dance + Dragon Claw.
If you already have a Dragon Dance in and THEN you Dragon Claw on the switch, it will work.
However, that's a 3HKO (counting the turn to DD) vs. a 2HKO.
A 252 ATK + LO + DD Brick Break would manage to 92-100% to Bliss.
Though the odds look good, it's still not a Guarantee if you were to DD on the switch:
100% - 12%(SR) + 6% (lefties) - 92% = 2% remaining....
However, since the damage dealt would be 659-774, it would essentially be a 50:50 shot determining if Blissey gets KOed, or if you eat an Ice Beam and get KOed...
Note that this severly takes away from it's Special attacking powers, thus crippling the sole purpose of this set.
Lastly, since I just showed you that even under the best circumstances it's not 100% possible, I don't think I need to calc. DD + Dragon Claw.
I just made a team using Chaincomp on shoddy yesterday and i have been playing with it like crazy, with some help on the other pokemon from rmt Chainchomp works exactly like it is proposed. Example is gliscors switching in expecting outrage and ~30% damage come into a DM doing massive damage eliminating that wall. I love this team and chainchomp does not need altering imo. For people who are against this give it a try and you will be amazed that it works really well.
Good Job surgo/Mekkah/whoever gets credit.
Good Job surgo/Mekkah/whoever gets credit.
With this set you should probably run Brick Break and Dragon Claw. Earthquake would be pretty much only for Heatran, and even Hydropump would probably be more useful than that.
However, if you want Roost, then consider Dragon Rush over Brick Break. It has poor accuracy, but the same power against Bliss as BB when it hits. And of course it hits pretty much every other pokemon for a hell of a lot more.. I believe that you can 2hko Cresselia with a Dracometeor and an Dragon Rush. (Also I believe with a Fireblast and a Dracometeor, but this way Cresselia cant really switch into any of your attacks.)
Anyway, I would run Rash, 180 atk (351), 76 or 136 speed (255) and 252 spatk (350).
About Cresselia, if you hit twice (with Dracometeor then Dragon Rush) you have a 77% chance of killing if you have sandstream and stealth rock. A 52% chance of killing Cresselia if it switches in! Fortunately if you miss with your first attack or do low damage you can see that and switch. I havent done any other calculations because tbh, nothing has split defenses anywhere near as good as Cresselia..
[Edit] - these calculations are for Cresselia with Max HP and Def and no Special Defense EVs.
Have a nice day.
Dragon Rush's 75% accuracy is way too off-putting on a threat, especially one that depends on it to dispatch with its #1 counter. We're already kind of assuming that Draco Meteor and Fire Blast are hitting 100% of the time and not their respective 90% and 85% clips.
Anyway, as Carl said and as it is alluded to in the first post (which many of you don't want to read but still can't wait to chime in, what a surprise), you have five other pokemon. Instead of associating lament/pride with your discovery that pokemon beats pokemon with move (Cresselia beats Chain Chomp with Ice Beam), you should be eager to take advantage of what is obviously (right?) an unSTABbed IB coming from 186SpA, and be switching in Tyranitar, Weavile and even Metagross (at least one of which you should have on your team) every day of the week for like 8% damage.
Then the only "hard part" about dealing with Cresselia is the whole "will I Pursuit or will I use my strongest STAB attack to deal close to the, at most, 87.5% damage (SR and Sandstorm) I need to kill you should you 'outpredict me' and stay in?" deal. For some numbers (man it's been a while, huh):
Adamant, 403 Attack Tyranitar's CBed Crunch on a 444HP/372Def (max/max) Bold Cresselia: 63-75%
Jolly, 339 Attack Weavile's CBed Night Slash on a 444HP/372Def (max/max) Bold Cresselia: 50-59%
Adamant, 405 Attack Metagross's CBed Meteor Mash on a 444HP/372Def (max/max) Bold Cresselia: 39-47% (as if Cress is really staying in, Pursuit does 42-50%)
It's almost that simple, guys — these were off the top of my head but actually checking Cresselia's analysis they are all listed as counters. It's literally the next logical step when discovering what pokemon give a particular pokemon/strategy the most trouble. Why be so quick to condemn a strategy (or blind to see that it it's part of one in the first place and not just a standalone pokemon) instead of seeing how ridiculously possible it is to support it?
Anyway, as Carl said and as it is alluded to in the first post (which many of you don't want to read but still can't wait to chime in, what a surprise), you have five other pokemon. Instead of associating lament/pride with your discovery that pokemon beats pokemon with move (Cresselia beats Chain Chomp with Ice Beam), you should be eager to take advantage of what is obviously (right?) an unSTABbed IB coming from 186SpA, and be switching in Tyranitar, Weavile and even Metagross (at least one of which you should have on your team) every day of the week for like 8% damage.
Then the only "hard part" about dealing with Cresselia is the whole "will I Pursuit or will I use my strongest STAB attack to deal close to the, at most, 87.5% damage (SR and Sandstorm) I need to kill you should you 'outpredict me' and stay in?" deal. For some numbers (man it's been a while, huh):
Adamant, 403 Attack Tyranitar's CBed Crunch on a 444HP/372Def (max/max) Bold Cresselia: 63-75%
Jolly, 339 Attack Weavile's CBed Night Slash on a 444HP/372Def (max/max) Bold Cresselia: 50-59%
Adamant, 405 Attack Metagross's CBed Meteor Mash on a 444HP/372Def (max/max) Bold Cresselia: 39-47% (as if Cress is really staying in, Pursuit does 42-50%)
It's almost that simple, guys — these were off the top of my head but actually checking Cresselia's analysis they are all listed as counters. It's literally the next logical step when discovering what pokemon give a particular pokemon/strategy the most trouble. Why be so quick to condemn a strategy (or blind to see that it it's part of one in the first place and not just a standalone pokemon) instead of seeing how ridiculously possible it is to support it?
YES!:justin:
Jumpman, you freakin' rock!
This is basically how my Mence (and of course I assume Chain Chomp) was meant to work.
It has the ability to lure out and counter many threats.
The things that counter it can / should be taken care of with your remaining 5 Pokes.
This is NOT to say that you should solely build your team to "counter counters".
Lure out / get rid of whatever you can to a maximum degree.
For whatever you can't build a strategy to "take care" of them.
I used special Gyarados on one of my joke teams long before don'teditmypostsniggermekkah(crazystarwolf) touched it, you know. ;( It's not a real moveset!
Anyway, the moveset certainly works although Life Orb limiting your time alive sorta limits the amount of damage you can do with it. Bronzong should be a worry, since it switches safely in against all but Fire Blast, and you'll do 30% to yourself just in LO damage if you Meteor it switching in while it can Gyro Ball you for half your health or just put you to sleep. Those non-OHKO Ice Beams from the various pokemon mentioned in this thread turn into one-shot kills after you deal 20-30% to yourself in LO damage (plus potential Spikes/SR/residual damage). Life Orb is obviously the best option for this type of moveset but you can't ignore the self-damage you're doing and the fact it makes mispredictions harder on you than on your opponent. But hey, if you cripple or kill Hippowdon/Gliscor rather than get owned by Bronzong/Cresselia, more power to you.
Naughty might make weaker Ice Beams kill you easier, but you're probably dead to Ice Beams anyway. Rock resist makes Garchomp a decent physical switch-in, but it's neutral to enough attacks that you should just drop the defense the rest of your team is better against.
In any case, Garchomp is the most powerful pokémon in the metagame after Blissey; I've been saying it for a month now. And a team without Stealth Rock? Madness, I say.
Anyway, the moveset certainly works although Life Orb limiting your time alive sorta limits the amount of damage you can do with it. Bronzong should be a worry, since it switches safely in against all but Fire Blast, and you'll do 30% to yourself just in LO damage if you Meteor it switching in while it can Gyro Ball you for half your health or just put you to sleep. Those non-OHKO Ice Beams from the various pokemon mentioned in this thread turn into one-shot kills after you deal 20-30% to yourself in LO damage (plus potential Spikes/SR/residual damage). Life Orb is obviously the best option for this type of moveset but you can't ignore the self-damage you're doing and the fact it makes mispredictions harder on you than on your opponent. But hey, if you cripple or kill Hippowdon/Gliscor rather than get owned by Bronzong/Cresselia, more power to you.
Naughty might make weaker Ice Beams kill you easier, but you're probably dead to Ice Beams anyway. Rock resist makes Garchomp a decent physical switch-in, but it's neutral to enough attacks that you should just drop the defense the rest of your team is better against.
In any case, Garchomp is the most powerful pokémon in the metagame after Blissey; I've been saying it for a month now. And a team without Stealth Rock? Madness, I say.