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Chandelure
- Thread starter tennisace
- Start date
Yeah...that was a problem Tyranitar and Swampert had to deal with last generation. I'm pretty sure there's specific targets for Stone Edge in the case of Breloom, and it's credible.
Gengar has a definite advantage over Shandera in the SubSplit department with his immunity to T-Spikes. T-Spikes, a staple of stall, are a major problem for this Shandera set if the intention is to "beat" Blissey. Rapid Spin support or a Poison type absorber is pretty necessary for success. I guess you could run Balloon, which would also eliminate the Ground weak, but I prefer the power with Life Orb. Overall great set, deserving of an analysis mention.
if Shandera needs time to set up, i think any poke with both encore and baton pass would be useful especially if the encore/baton passer drew fighting or normal moves. it could encore a normal/fighting move and then baton pass to ST Shandera who would have a free turn to set up while the opponent is locked into a move that Shandera is immune to.
Shandera needs Speed and Special Attack to sweep.
So Shandera would need 2 set up moves.
Encore got nerfed and now only works up to 3 turns.
It won't work.
Although Smeargle can Baton Pass Shell Smash/Butterfly Dance to Shandera.
or a pokemon could trick a choice scarf onto a pokemon, locking it into a move that Shandera is immune to, then switch out to ST Shandera and boost up as much as it needs to. on the mode without team preview, the opponent would not be able to predict a switch to Shandera and would be likely to stay in
Then tell me.
What's going to trick a choice scarf onto a weak Bug,Fire,Steel,Ice,Fighting,Normal Attack without attracting Rock,Ground,Water,Ghost,or Dark?
Also tell me when and where you'll be able to sweep a team with just 427 attack.
I can barely 2HKO Kerudio with a Life Orb,how are you going to do it without any boosts at all?
You simply cannot OHKO everything with 427 Sp.Attack.
You can't expect to sweep with 1 turn of set up unless Shandera had Butterfly Dance or Shell Break(Like that would ever happen).
What's going to trick a choice scarf onto a weak Bug,Fire,Steel,Ice,Fighting,Normal Attack without attracting Rock,Ground,Water,Ghost,or Dark?
Also tell me when and where you'll be able to sweep a team with just 427 attack.
I can barely 2HKO Kerudio with a Life Orb,how are you going to do it without any boosts at all?
You simply cannot OHKO everything with 427 Sp.Attack.
You can't expect to sweep with 1 turn of set up unless Shandera had Butterfly Dance or Shell Break(Like that would ever happen).
lots of psychic types learn trick, you just have to use it on a predicted bug attack and not a dark or ghost one, you could use something like starmie or slowbro or Rankurusu, etc. Persian can draw fighting attacks and will not be targeted by ghost and it can switch in when you predict anything that you want your opponent to be stuck on and go from there.
now for sweeping, do this when your opponents pokemon are weakened and can be OHKOed, you have to do it at the right time, Kerudio resist Shandera's strongest STAB attack so if you do this when pokemon with resists are full health, sure it wouldnt work. but if you wait until they are weakened, it will work. its all about timing
now for sweeping, do this when your opponents pokemon are weakened and can be OHKOed, you have to do it at the right time, Kerudio resist Shandera's strongest STAB attack so if you do this when pokemon with resists are full health, sure it wouldnt work. but if you wait until they are weakened, it will work. its all about timing
You aren't guaranteed to be hit by a Bug move >.>
Most of the time people will use a Dark attack.
Also,what's stopping people from switching after they get the Scarf?
As for sweeping,WHAT will weaken those mons? If your other mons weaken them,why not just kill them?
Also,I used Shadow Ball on the Kerudio. He doesn't resist it and it won't OHKO while he can OHKO with a STAB Water attack.
Don't understand your timing when pokemon don't weaken themselves.(unless they like to spam recoil moves >.>)
you may not be guaranteed to get hit with a bug move but there are lots of pokemon that carry bug moves and not dark moves.
people wont always switch because they would want to finish off what they gave them the choice scarf. sometimes they might switch but many of the people ive battled against do not.
During battles, pokemon get weakened by attacks from other pokemon and entry hazards. Pokemon get hit by attacks and this makes their health decrease. other pokemon weaken them but they will often switch out, just because one pokemon hits them with an attack doesnt meant that that pokemon is the one that has to finish them off. eventually most of your opponents will have taken damage at some point during the battle and will not be at full health and this is the point where this strategy will be useful. and i was referring to fire blast, its a lot stronger than shadow ball when its unresisted, once fire resists are weakened by the battle, this will be the most effective.
people wont always switch because they would want to finish off what they gave them the choice scarf. sometimes they might switch but many of the people ive battled against do not.
During battles, pokemon get weakened by attacks from other pokemon and entry hazards. Pokemon get hit by attacks and this makes their health decrease. other pokemon weaken them but they will often switch out, just because one pokemon hits them with an attack doesnt meant that that pokemon is the one that has to finish them off. eventually most of your opponents will have taken damage at some point during the battle and will not be at full health and this is the point where this strategy will be useful. and i was referring to fire blast, its a lot stronger than shadow ball when its unresisted, once fire resists are weakened by the battle, this will be the most effective.
Your only option is Persian then.
But you might run into a few problems:
1.Your Persian dies via Mach Punch because your sash broke due to Stealth Rock.
2.Something with Priority Poisons/Encores/Paralyzes your Shandera.
3.No one uses a move that Shandera resists.
Btw,It's quite obvious an unresisted Fire Blast is better,but Kerudio being WATER/Fighting kinda MADE me use Shadow Ball which means NO OHKO.
Even if he didn't resist Fire Blast,I wouldn't OHKO since he's quite bulky.
I also had Stealth Rock up and a layer of Spikes and I still died.
If you can't OHKO,you're dead.
Not saying it would be a BAD strategy,just one that wouldn't really work against most teams.
It's a late game sweeper that needs support.
Shadow Tag will most likely get banned later on anyway.
I've seen TONS of people on PO complaining about it,even more so than Darkrai.
1 persian has a scarf, not a sash but anyway, as long as persian switches into the right move, it only has to take one hit discounting priority as long as you can predict a Bug,Fire,Steel,Ice,Fighting,Normal attack to switch into, many of which are very common, all you have to do is use switcharoo.
2 if youre going on a late game sweep, poison is not going to be an issue, same with encore because even if you have to repeat a move, if this is a late game sweep, your opponents pokemon will be weakened and will not necessarily be able to take it and priority paralysis is not on every team, the only pokemon who can do it is the grass-sheep thing with MH. and people do use moves that Shandera resist, drain punchers are common, practically every team has fire, normal and ice moves so those are common too. and about the Kerudio, i know its typing. what i was saying is that pokemon that do resist fire need to be weakened before you try to sweep and even pokemon that dont resist fire still need to be weakened so you dont have to go with the weaker shadow ball, thats why this is a late game strategy.
2 if youre going on a late game sweep, poison is not going to be an issue, same with encore because even if you have to repeat a move, if this is a late game sweep, your opponents pokemon will be weakened and will not necessarily be able to take it and priority paralysis is not on every team, the only pokemon who can do it is the grass-sheep thing with MH. and people do use moves that Shandera resist, drain punchers are common, practically every team has fire, normal and ice moves so those are common too. and about the Kerudio, i know its typing. what i was saying is that pokemon that do resist fire need to be weakened before you try to sweep and even pokemon that dont resist fire still need to be weakened so you dont have to go with the weaker shadow ball, thats why this is a late game strategy.
1.Sorry,my bad. Anyway,Mach Punch is VERY common. Your Persian NEEDS to survive.
2.The thing is,you can be stalled out and the poison will kill you,while if you get paralyzed you could get phazed out.
Not many teams carry a normal move,and some don't even carry fire moves at all.
Also,why should they switch in their special wall early? They're obviously going to use it when they need it and well,unless you have other strong special attackers,the special wall(say Blissey) will come to ruin your parade,as not even a +6 Fire Blast can guarantee a kill.
The biggest problem is,that normal has NO resistances.You could end up with a Fighting move,or you could end up with the Earthquake or Stone Edge.
I find that too unreliable.
Most Techniloom carry
Spore
Mach Punch
Bullet Seed
Stone Edge(I run Rock Tomb, which can still OHKO Shandy)
1 many teams may have mach punch but not all pokemon do, you just need to use prediction when you switch persian in.
2 you may take poison damage when youre being stalled but it shouldnt be enough to kill Shandera faster that Shandera can kill a few weakened pokemon
3 not all teams carry a fire move but the majority do. the majority of teams also carry ice moves and its going to be very uncommon to face a team that has neither.
3 all special sweepers have to worry about special walls but again, in late-game, special walls should already be weakened and most blissey cant hurt Shandera very well and can easily be set up on further. if they twave it, Shandera can still raise its speed with nitro charge to the point where its faster then it was before.
4 many moves will kill persian when you switch it in but thats why you have to switch it in on a move that wont, plus if you give it only defensive evs because thats all you need with the choice scarf for speed and its purpose being to trick the scarf onto something else and not attack, it can take the one hit it needs to take to trick its scarf over.
2 you may take poison damage when youre being stalled but it shouldnt be enough to kill Shandera faster that Shandera can kill a few weakened pokemon
3 not all teams carry a fire move but the majority do. the majority of teams also carry ice moves and its going to be very uncommon to face a team that has neither.
3 all special sweepers have to worry about special walls but again, in late-game, special walls should already be weakened and most blissey cant hurt Shandera very well and can easily be set up on further. if they twave it, Shandera can still raise its speed with nitro charge to the point where its faster then it was before.
4 many moves will kill persian when you switch it in but thats why you have to switch it in on a move that wont, plus if you give it only defensive evs because thats all you need with the choice scarf for speed and its purpose being to trick the scarf onto something else and not attack, it can take the one hit it needs to take to trick its scarf over.
1.Again,if your Persian doesn't survive,you're screwed.
2.Anything faster than Shandera can poison it and then it's just a matter of stalling.
3.Blissey walls Shandera.That's obvious. Now,what are you going to set up with?
You need two moves to raise your stats.
You have Acid Armor,Calm Mind,and Nitro Charge.
AA and CM make you extremely bulky,but anything faster can Toxic you.
CM and NC will make you strong and fast,but anything faster(say Ditto) or anything with Aqua Jet/Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch will kill you.
Also,simply Nitro Charging back isn't exactly fixing the problem if you're paralyzed. You could be paralyzed for a single attack and get phazed.
4.But the thing is,Persian has NO resistances. Even with defensive EVs,will he survive in a metagame filled with such strong mons?
1 you have to make sure youre persian survives, its a game of skill. use skill to make sure it lives.
2 you boost your speed on your free turn so not much will be faster and if you use this strategy right, the rest of your opponents pokemon will we weakened by the time you use it so stalling will be difficult if most of the pokes are in OHKO range
3 blissey cant phaze so nitro charging against it would work and shadow sneak is not very common and aqua jet may be common but in the late game phase of the game, aqua jet users are likely to be weakened to the point where they can only get off one aqua jet before being ohkoed which is unlikely to kill Shandera and yes, ditto beats you, thats why you need to do this after ditto is dead, plus most teams dont have ditto.
4 he only needs to take one hit and you need to use prediction to make sure the hit he takes wont kill him
2 you boost your speed on your free turn so not much will be faster and if you use this strategy right, the rest of your opponents pokemon will we weakened by the time you use it so stalling will be difficult if most of the pokes are in OHKO range
3 blissey cant phaze so nitro charging against it would work and shadow sneak is not very common and aqua jet may be common but in the late game phase of the game, aqua jet users are likely to be weakened to the point where they can only get off one aqua jet before being ohkoed which is unlikely to kill Shandera and yes, ditto beats you, thats why you need to do this after ditto is dead, plus most teams dont have ditto.
4 he only needs to take one hit and you need to use prediction to make sure the hit he takes wont kill him
>.>
I'm now convinced you know nothing about the metagame.
1.Persian wont survive anything with his 65/60/65 defenses.
2.Blisey can't phaze,but a Skarmory can,a Dnite can,tons of mons can phaze.
3.Ditto is one of THE most common pokemon now.
I just tried this out and...it works,but there's NO point at all.
When I got the opportunities to actually do it,I could have just kept sweeping with my other mons or I could have just used my usual Nitro charge set to kill everything that was left.
Seriously,it's just a waste of time.
So much set up to kill like 2-3 mons? Weakened ones at that.(Even though they WEREN'T because I can't FORCE my opponent to bring them out,therefore I'm unable to weaken them)
Might as well keep killing with my Roobushin than spend like 9 turns setting up to kill a few mons.
1 there are weak attacks that persian can switch into especially when its ev trained in its defenses and it can switch into all status moves besides like confuse ray thanks to limber as welll as other support moves.
2 skarmory is not going to live a LO STAB boosted SE fireblast coming from a base 145 Sp Attack so it wont be able to phaze you and a weakened dragonite is going to have a hard time with those shadow balls
3 ditto may be common, i never said its not, but its not on every team and you need to get it out of the way before you do this.
4 its not alot of set up, its two moves plus a free turn and you can make your opponent bring out the rest of his pokemon to weaken them by baiting him, it just takes skill.
5 there are lots of pokemon roobushin cant kill, it has different stab moves and has very different offensive stats so there are many situations where Shandera is much more effective. also, this makes nitro charge sets work much better because you have a better opportunity to use nitro charge.
2 skarmory is not going to live a LO STAB boosted SE fireblast coming from a base 145 Sp Attack so it wont be able to phaze you and a weakened dragonite is going to have a hard time with those shadow balls
3 ditto may be common, i never said its not, but its not on every team and you need to get it out of the way before you do this.
4 its not alot of set up, its two moves plus a free turn and you can make your opponent bring out the rest of his pokemon to weaken them by baiting him, it just takes skill.
5 there are lots of pokemon roobushin cant kill, it has different stab moves and has very different offensive stats so there are many situations where Shandera is much more effective. also, this makes nitro charge sets work much better because you have a better opportunity to use nitro charge.
You do realize the encoring those moves will lead you to have a confused/paralyzed Shandera, right?
Regardless, almost anything that got locked into something, especially moves that Shandera is immune to, would switch out immediately in case of that situation.
I mean, who's going to go "Oh, I just got locked into a fighting/normal/weak/support attack. I think I'll sit here and just keep using it, it's not like the opponent is going to switch in the Shandera I saw in team preview"...
I mean, who's going to go "Oh, I just got locked into a fighting/normal/weak/support attack. I think I'll sit here and just keep using it, it's not like the opponent is going to switch in the Shandera I saw in team preview"...
1.Xien already explained.
2.So now you have LO? So,taking into account all the damage you'll take while setting up(assuming it isn't a Fighting/Normal move) and all the damage the LO is bringing AND all the damage you'll be receiving due to your speed(Seriously,AA and CM are your best bet),you're killing yourself.
3.You're right,he's not on every team,but he is on a big part of the teams and he can easily put your sweep to a complete halt and possibly sweep your own team depending if your immune to Fire/Ghost/Fighting.
4.You can bait all you want,you'll never get your opponent to bring out all his mon every single time. He has a brain too,and after seeing your team,he's also going to try to bait.
And you can't tell me 7 - 9 turns of set up is not a lot.
5.I don't understand what you're trying to prove. Are you saying Roob can't kill everything? Because that's quite obvious.