You forgot to add Choice Specs Syberia.
I will edit this post later with responses to everyone's replies, but thanks for the feedback.
I will edit this post later with responses to everyone's replies, but thanks for the feedback.
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Choice Items in the Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
In Advance you could use 5 Choice Banders + Magnezone and win, I actually made a successful team with that idea.
has anyone thought of the same strategy for DP, but with all Specs and Dugtrio > Magnezone?
Anyway RL you're mostly correct about coverage within movesets. I find that with all the Choice users running around, new players seem to neglect stuff like Agility and Swords Dance in favour of a Choice item, and use one move all the time, which is pretty inferior in my opinion. ScarfCross usage has reduced greatly too, but I've used it to some success.
has anyone thought of the same strategy for DP, but with all Specs and Dugtrio > Magnezone?
Anyway RL you're mostly correct about coverage within movesets. I find that with all the Choice users running around, new players seem to neglect stuff like Agility and Swords Dance in favour of a Choice item, and use one move all the time, which is pretty inferior in my opinion. ScarfCross usage has reduced greatly too, but I've used it to some success.
Except he also has significantly more defense than Gengar, making that pretty much a wash. Gengar frequently runs a Hasty Nature to not decrease the power of his explosions, making his defense 140. Rotom on the other hand has a 107 base defense, making his defense 250. His HP is 240 rather than Gengar's 261, which is pretty negligible. His special defense is also 250 to Gengar's 186.
So to sum up:
Rotom has about 45% more Physical defense and 25% more special defense at the cost of less than 10% HP. He also resists Electric, Steel, and Flying, all of which are significantly more common than Grass or Bug, which are the resistances he loses (and he only loses half of his Bug resistance). Additionally, he is not weak to Psychic, though that isn't a huge deal. If anything, Rotom is significantly EASIER to bring in than Gengar is. Timid Rotom's Speed is only 21 points lower than Modest Gengar's, though his Special attack is 85 Points lower, he makes up for it by having STAB on Thunderbolt/Discharge and access to Overheat/Blizzard/Leaf Storm/Air Slash/Hydro Pump. He makes a solid check to Gyarados, and resists Bullet Punch, allowing him to deal with SD Scizor and Lucario much better than Gengar can.
I actually think that Rotom is much easier to switch in than Gengar, mainly because of the Electric and Steel resist. That and Rotom has alot more Defenses, so its accessibility should really be equal to, if not greater than Gengars.
Excellent Guide btw, and I agree with how Scarfers are truely a double-edged sword.
nice presentation RL, and I'll admit I didn't think about nuetrality enough before this. I've seen electric-ghost in a whole new light (though I think I'd still be rather scared that the special-defensive beast in Tyranitar is not that afraid of it).
I know how much you love specs-jolt, but shouldn't flygon get a higher score for accessibility? He has the same immunity to t-wave and other electric attacks, in addition to immunity to ground moves, and resistance to fire, rock and poison (lol, poison). Plus he is immune to spikes, t-spikes and sand in addition to being resistant to SR. 80 / 80 / 80 defenses are . . . weak yes, but arguably better than jolteon's 65 / 60 / 95. It also totally outclasses gengar's defenses-- though I'll admit they both way outspeed flygon.
This was mostly just a rant about how awesome flygon is. I haven't had one for a while. :P
I'd also be interested in your opinion on how the virtues of the added Uncertainty from U-Turn and Accessibility from Levitate compare to Garchomp's far superior stats (though yeah, Garchomp's banned. oh well).
I know how much you love specs-jolt, but shouldn't flygon get a higher score for accessibility? He has the same immunity to t-wave and other electric attacks, in addition to immunity to ground moves, and resistance to fire, rock and poison (lol, poison). Plus he is immune to spikes, t-spikes and sand in addition to being resistant to SR. 80 / 80 / 80 defenses are . . . weak yes, but arguably better than jolteon's 65 / 60 / 95. It also totally outclasses gengar's defenses-- though I'll admit they both way outspeed flygon.
This was mostly just a rant about how awesome flygon is. I haven't had one for a while. :P
I'd also be interested in your opinion on how the virtues of the added Uncertainty from U-Turn and Accessibility from Levitate compare to Garchomp's far superior stats (though yeah, Garchomp's banned. oh well).
I don't fancy Jirachi as a premier Choice Scarfer in my opinon. The difference between Jirachi and Togekiss is that Flying is a much better attack type than steel, and Togekiss gets Aura Sphere and Flamethrower to complete coverage, which are more powerful than the weak punches Jirachi has. My Jirachi report card would look like this, your being awfully generous:
Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 108 HP/200 Atk/200 Spd (My Preferred EVs)
*Iron Head
*Ice Punch
*Fire Punch /*Trick/ *ThunderPunch / *Stealth Rock
*Fire Punch /*Trick/ *ThunderPunch / *Stealth Rock
Power: ***
Neutral Type Coverage: **
Consequences: **
Yeah, but Flygon as a Choice Scarfer is absoutely atrocious. Outrage locks you in, Earthquake is weak and dangerous on Choice Users, U-turn is VERY weak and way too predictable, and Stone Edge is also atrocious on Choice Scarfers.
I don't think PERFECT neutral coverage is necessary to get five stars. I think solid neutral coverage is necessary. Lati@s fail to hit Empoleon neutrally, so I should say Dragon + Water doesn't have excellent type coverage? Water + Psychic also has excellent type coverage, hitting all but Starmie, Slowbro, Empoleon, and Celebi for neutral damage. One is covered by the third move, one isn't even OU at the moment, and the other two are rarely seen as defensive pokemon... The whole point of the neutral type coverage is that a Choice Specs / Band user should literally have two choices to make when selecting a move, and be fine with picking A or B. C is after they have spotted a troublesome pokemon that falls in the small category of resists for A and B. So its like this: If I have Slowbro in, I either pick Surf or Psychic. If I expect a Water or Grass Pokemon, I just pick Psychic. Anything else, I just pick Surf. Since Slowbro is wallish, I can usually expect a faster sweeper to come in, so I can usually just Surf. That is how simplistic a Choice user should be.
As for Raikou in UU, all it really needs to do is Thunderbolt. The only Ground pokemon usually seen is Steelix, and Grass pokemon get hurt be either of its last two attacks. You literally can pick Thunderbolt or Extrasensory and be fine against everything except Steelix.
I definately think people are too horrified of Pursuit. Tyranitar isn't Pursuiting SpecsStarmie for example, unless it is locked into Psychic or Thunderbolt / Ice Beam. But as I specifically mentioned, you should be using Surf freely. If that is the case, how should Tyranitar ever be able to Pursuit you? If something dies... In that case you already have one kill and will do some 70+% to Tyranitar with SpecsSurf if it is so eager to Pursuit you. Again, you pick Surf or Psychic. Surf is the safer option, but the choices are as simple as that.
Thanks, M Dragon. I thought about using SpecsLuke, but the smogon suggested set is actually rather dangerous to use for someone with less than stellar prediction. This the "safe" SpecsLuke:
Lucario @ Choice Specs
Nature: Timid / Modest
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
*Aura Sphere
*Dragon Pulse
*Shadow Ball
*Vacuum Wave
Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: ***
Uncertainty: **
This version is safe because you literally pick two choices: Fighting is neutral with both Ghost and Dragon, so you either pick Aura Sphere or another move. Dragon Pulse is more powerful and even hits one of Lucario's counters!!! So those are your A and B choices. Many will say this is poor, but this is the safest SpecsLuke set for players that don't have the best prediction skills. If you were to use the Smogon standard set, it would be like this:
Lucario @ Choice Specs
Nature: Timid / Modest
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
*Aura Sphere
*Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse (IIRC this is still preferred for hitting normals)
*Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Rock
*Vacuum Wave
Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: ****
Accessbility: ***
Uncertainty: **
Now, you really have to put your thinking caps on, and this goes against the stance I suggest with Hidden Powers.
Banded Gyarados is alright, but there are better Choice Banders. Many people just like what he can do with a Dragon Dance. Gyarados isn't like Salamence / Dragonite, who can completely destroy his counters with 2 hits from a Choice Band. Here is how I would rate him:
Gyarados @ Choice Band
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
*Waterfall / Aqua Tail
*Stone Edge
*Earthquake
*Ice Fang
Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: **
Uncertainty: **
I would actually use Dugtrio in the Choice Scarf section since hes played the exact same way as one.
Well, Ground keeps Weezing's biggest nemesis from switching in, which again is why it would be prefered on a Choice set. I would be more concerned with a potential counter, than just a switch in that people won't switch into Weezing anyway (Rhyperior switching in to take a will-o-wisp?). Also, Grass is a terrible attacking type for a Choice user, and Hidden Power Grass is just dangerous. The only reason its listed on Jolteon is because it those two actually DO switch in on it. Using Hidden Power to complete the coverage is what I do not recommend doing. For most purposes, you will use Sludge Bomb or Fire Move as A and B. C is Thunderbolt for Tentacruel, and D is HP Ground for the Heatran switch in. Again, you will be fine with A and B.
Clearly you didn't read the whole thread.
Thanks, guys.
Fair enough.
Good points, fair enough. I do find Flygon extremely easy to switch in and I'm sure everyone does. I will edit the OP at some point.
@Scarfgon-- I think scarfgon has merits that cannot be measured simply in the 3 categories you give.
-Accessibility still matters for scarfers imo, and Flygon's great resistances/immunities keep it in the game.
-In late game, the odds that your opponent's pokemon will be able to handle the STAB dragon/ground combo will drop significantly, despite flygon's mediocre attacking power.
-U-turn is predictable sure, but when flygon manages to switch into t-wave/thunderbolt from celebi/starmie, there's not much they can do about it. Using scarf to get ahead of starmie can be really important as well.
-As a CB user, Flygon's mediocre speed limits its ability to attack, but as a Scarf User, it can give up just enough speed to bulk its defenses to a respectable level while still out-running scarf-ran.
-The fourth move is fire punch, and while it will almost never see any use in battle, it provides a way to eliminate "last pokemon scizor" who appears quite frequently. It also makes it possible for last-pokemon-flygon to handle things like "weakened breloom" + "weakened Lucario" which is situational yes, but can very well happen.
Yeah you can say, "anything can sweep in late game when its counters are gone," but not anything will have gone through the whole game with immunity to spikes, t-spikes, sand and resistance to SR with a near-flawless dual STAB. U-Turn also provides an acceptable early-game-plan, something swords dance luke wishes to death it could say. What it loses in "power" and "consequences" is arguably balanced by its accessibility and its sheer utility from start to finish throughout the game.
@Gyarados-- IMO:
Gyarados @ Choice Band
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
*Waterfall / Aqua Tail
*Stone Edge / Return / Double Edge / Outrage
*Earthquake / Return / Double Edge / Outrage
*Ice Fang / Return / Double Edge / Outrage
Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: **
Uncertainty: **
-Accessibility still matters for scarfers imo, and Flygon's great resistances/immunities keep it in the game.
-In late game, the odds that your opponent's pokemon will be able to handle the STAB dragon/ground combo will drop significantly, despite flygon's mediocre attacking power.
-U-turn is predictable sure, but when flygon manages to switch into t-wave/thunderbolt from celebi/starmie, there's not much they can do about it. Using scarf to get ahead of starmie can be really important as well.
-As a CB user, Flygon's mediocre speed limits its ability to attack, but as a Scarf User, it can give up just enough speed to bulk its defenses to a respectable level while still out-running scarf-ran.
-The fourth move is fire punch, and while it will almost never see any use in battle, it provides a way to eliminate "last pokemon scizor" who appears quite frequently. It also makes it possible for last-pokemon-flygon to handle things like "weakened breloom" + "weakened Lucario" which is situational yes, but can very well happen.
Yeah you can say, "anything can sweep in late game when its counters are gone," but not anything will have gone through the whole game with immunity to spikes, t-spikes, sand and resistance to SR with a near-flawless dual STAB. U-Turn also provides an acceptable early-game-plan, something swords dance luke wishes to death it could say. What it loses in "power" and "consequences" is arguably balanced by its accessibility and its sheer utility from start to finish throughout the game.
@Gyarados-- IMO:
Gyarados @ Choice Band
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
*Waterfall / Aqua Tail
*Stone Edge / Return / Double Edge / Outrage
*Earthquake / Return / Double Edge / Outrage
*Ice Fang / Return / Double Edge / Outrage
Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: **
Uncertainty: **
You make some very good points ChouToshio, and I am not disputing Flygon's merits as a Choice user. I actually encourage usage, but I prefer the Choice Bander because it makes Flygon's consequences substantially less severe in most cases, hence why I listed it as one of the best Choice Banders! I just don't see too many benefits of changing its item from Choice Band to Choice Scarf, as with Band it can do everything you've listed really, except outspeed Scarftran.
And Flygon's speed actually isn't medicore at all, as a Max Speed Jolly Choice Band Flygon (what I've been using lately), hits 328 Speed. Well, look at what in OU you don't outrun:
Jolteon, you wall.
Weavile, you have no business fighting
Dugtrio, lol, can't do anything to you.
Starmie, point for Choice Scarf.
Azelf, mainly a lead, but point for Choice Scarf.
Gengar, mainly Choice Scarf also, so no change here.
Infernape, usually a lead, but point for Choice Scarf.
So unless you are seriously scared of Starmie, Azelf, and Infernape, Flygon is actually one of the fastest Pokemon in OU. Yes, it ties with Offensive Zapdos (which it can stand up to somewhat), and ties with Salamence (too lazy to check usage statistics, but the majority aren't positive Max Speed for some reason).
Either way, I appreciate your input... mind posting a report card of ScarfFlygon?
@ Gyarados, I completely forgot about Double Edge / Return, which makes him much more appealing.
And Flygon's speed actually isn't medicore at all, as a Max Speed Jolly Choice Band Flygon (what I've been using lately), hits 328 Speed. Well, look at what in OU you don't outrun:
Jolteon, you wall.
Weavile, you have no business fighting
Dugtrio, lol, can't do anything to you.
Starmie, point for Choice Scarf.
Azelf, mainly a lead, but point for Choice Scarf.
Gengar, mainly Choice Scarf also, so no change here.
Infernape, usually a lead, but point for Choice Scarf.
So unless you are seriously scared of Starmie, Azelf, and Infernape, Flygon is actually one of the fastest Pokemon in OU. Yes, it ties with Offensive Zapdos (which it can stand up to somewhat), and ties with Salamence (too lazy to check usage statistics, but the majority aren't positive Max Speed for some reason).
Either way, I appreciate your input... mind posting a report card of ScarfFlygon?
@ Gyarados, I completely forgot about Double Edge / Return, which makes him much more appealing.
The problem with Togekiss is you're going to have a heck of a time dealing with switching in and out of Stealth Rock especially when you're locked in a move. Jirachi resists SR, is faster than Togekiss, resists Bullet Punch and Extremespeed, immune to Sandstream damage, Iron Head doesn't miss under normal conditions, usually threatens usually at least 2 out of the 5 most commonly used pokémon in December, etc.
Togekiss has an extremely predictable movepool, while Jirachi could be a CMer, Wisher, Tricker, etc. Even if my opponents know my moves I have found it easier to score kills with my Jirachi than when I relied on Togekiss to get the job done.
I've tested Choice Scarf Togekiss before and I really haven't had much success. I honestly think Togekiss has way more business being a Nasty Plot user than being a Scarfer because well... You hit a lot harder with Nasty Plot. Another sacrifice Togekiss makes for a Scarf set is durability and offense in favor of Speed. Aura Sphere isn't going to be 2HKOing any Blissey coming from a Choice Scarf Togekiss... It looks really nice on paper, but I have seen NP Togekiss working much better for me and against me than the Choice Scarf variant (unless my Blissey gets Tricked a Scarf). Not to mention Togekiss utilizing paraflinch hax will have a 69% of making sure their target does not move during that round.
Choice Scarf Jirachi works as an excellent anti-lead and I'm sure you've heard me rave on about how awesome it is long enough...
Don't forget when using Choice pokés it still is very important to play defensively in certain situations. People think they can just send 'em in to really mess up the game, but against somewhat defensive teams they are going to have a lot of problems.
Mindgames :D
Edit: Dec. usage Stats for Mence.
| Salamence | Item | Choice Scarf | 10.9 |
| Salamence | Nature | Adamant | 40.0 |
| Salamence | Nature | Jolly | 10.1 |
| Salamence | Nature | Other (10) | < 9.8 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | Max | 51.9 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | Medium (100-150) | 23.3 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 12.3 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | Other (4) | < 4.0 |
Togekiss has an extremely predictable movepool, while Jirachi could be a CMer, Wisher, Tricker, etc. Even if my opponents know my moves I have found it easier to score kills with my Jirachi than when I relied on Togekiss to get the job done.
I've tested Choice Scarf Togekiss before and I really haven't had much success. I honestly think Togekiss has way more business being a Nasty Plot user than being a Scarfer because well... You hit a lot harder with Nasty Plot. Another sacrifice Togekiss makes for a Scarf set is durability and offense in favor of Speed. Aura Sphere isn't going to be 2HKOing any Blissey coming from a Choice Scarf Togekiss... It looks really nice on paper, but I have seen NP Togekiss working much better for me and against me than the Choice Scarf variant (unless my Blissey gets Tricked a Scarf). Not to mention Togekiss utilizing paraflinch hax will have a 69% of making sure their target does not move during that round.
Choice Scarf Jirachi works as an excellent anti-lead and I'm sure you've heard me rave on about how awesome it is long enough...
Don't forget when using Choice pokés it still is very important to play defensively in certain situations. People think they can just send 'em in to really mess up the game, but against somewhat defensive teams they are going to have a lot of problems.
Mindgames :D
Edit: Dec. usage Stats for Mence.
| Salamence | Item | Choice Scarf | 10.9 |
| Salamence | Nature | Adamant | 40.0 |
| Salamence | Nature | Jolly | 10.1 |
| Salamence | Nature | Other (10) | < 9.8 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | Max | 51.9 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | Medium (100-150) | 23.3 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 12.3 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | Other (4) | < 4.0 |
Togekiss can CM, Wish or Trick.
But basically any Choice user will either attack with its primary attack, or it will attempt to hit a poke trying to switch into its primary attack with something to allow you to finish it off with your primary attack later.
For instance Heatran. Fireblast is your primary attack, but sometimes you predict a switch to another Heatran so you have to Earth Power. Once you get rid of Heatran with Earth Power you go back to Fireblasting..
So I think you all seem to be underestimating the value of a status move on a Choiced set. You Status the counter so it is no longer a threat, and then next time you dont have to worry about it switching in. Sleep moves are the best, and then Burn and Paralysis are situational, and Poison isnt generally great, since it doesnt actually do anything to protect the choice user itself. I mean sure you have to switch, but 90% of the time when you hit with something other than your primary stab you have to switch anyway. Once Heatran has Earth Powered you are going to have to be very brave to leave it in to Earth Power again. At least if your opponent knows you are Choiced.
Which means, as far as I am concerned Gengar has the best uncertainty factor of anything. It can Trick, Hypnosis, Explode, Destiny Bond, Will o Wisp, or attack..
The other thing, you need to consider the use of that primary attack. Like for instance with Jolteon, teams often will have a lot of electric resistant pokes. Even though Tbolt and Shadowball are resisted by very little, because once you hit once your opponent can switch safely to a resist, it just doesnt do enough damage to clear the path for doing much damage with Thunderbolt.
I mean Jolteon is an ok choice user, but it isnt a great one IMO anyway.
For instance Dragon + Fire I like a lot more than Dragon + Fighting. Even though Dragon + Fighting has better neutral coverage. Just cause most steels arent weak to Fighting.
Have a nice day.
But basically any Choice user will either attack with its primary attack, or it will attempt to hit a poke trying to switch into its primary attack with something to allow you to finish it off with your primary attack later.
For instance Heatran. Fireblast is your primary attack, but sometimes you predict a switch to another Heatran so you have to Earth Power. Once you get rid of Heatran with Earth Power you go back to Fireblasting..
So I think you all seem to be underestimating the value of a status move on a Choiced set. You Status the counter so it is no longer a threat, and then next time you dont have to worry about it switching in. Sleep moves are the best, and then Burn and Paralysis are situational, and Poison isnt generally great, since it doesnt actually do anything to protect the choice user itself. I mean sure you have to switch, but 90% of the time when you hit with something other than your primary stab you have to switch anyway. Once Heatran has Earth Powered you are going to have to be very brave to leave it in to Earth Power again. At least if your opponent knows you are Choiced.
Which means, as far as I am concerned Gengar has the best uncertainty factor of anything. It can Trick, Hypnosis, Explode, Destiny Bond, Will o Wisp, or attack..
The other thing, you need to consider the use of that primary attack. Like for instance with Jolteon, teams often will have a lot of electric resistant pokes. Even though Tbolt and Shadowball are resisted by very little, because once you hit once your opponent can switch safely to a resist, it just doesnt do enough damage to clear the path for doing much damage with Thunderbolt.
I mean Jolteon is an ok choice user, but it isnt a great one IMO anyway.
For instance Dragon + Fire I like a lot more than Dragon + Fighting. Even though Dragon + Fighting has better neutral coverage. Just cause most steels arent weak to Fighting.
Have a nice day.
This deserves a mention on the Scarf recipient part of the origional post. I've been using it the past 2 or so months and it has been one of the best leads I've ever used.
Specs Kingdra is awesome.
This is such a good set that im almost afraid to reveal it.
Kingdra @Choice Specs is just awesome. He provides excellent damage output huge suprise factor and has many opourtunities to switch in particularly in a heatran reliant metagame. He also does not have a stealth rock weakness like Mence and he also Sniper which is ridiculously broken.
Kingdra @Choice Specs
252Sp.Atk/252 Speed Modest
Draco Meteor
Hydro Pump
Dragon Pulse
HP Electric
Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: ***
Uncertainty: **
I hope you will consider this.
This is such a good set that im almost afraid to reveal it.
Kingdra @Choice Specs is just awesome. He provides excellent damage output huge suprise factor and has many opourtunities to switch in particularly in a heatran reliant metagame. He also does not have a stealth rock weakness like Mence and he also Sniper which is ridiculously broken.
Kingdra @Choice Specs
252Sp.Atk/252 Speed Modest
Draco Meteor
Hydro Pump
Dragon Pulse
HP Electric
Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: ***
Uncertainty: **
I hope you will consider this.
I'm surprised by not seeing here Metagross. Choice Bander hits like a truck, but unluckily so many things resist his STAB.
Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Atk / 12 Def
*Meteor Mash (even resisted hurts)
*Earthquake
*ThunderPunch / Pursuit / Bullet Punch
*Explosion
Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: ****
Accessbility: ****
Uncertainty: **** (with Pursuit, without it 3)
Offensive Choice Scarf is also solid in my opinion. Cheers.
Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Atk / 12 Def
*Meteor Mash (even resisted hurts)
*Earthquake
*ThunderPunch / Pursuit / Bullet Punch
*Explosion
Power: *****
Neutral Type Coverage: ****
Accessbility: ****
Uncertainty: **** (with Pursuit, without it 3)
Offensive Choice Scarf is also solid in my opinion. Cheers.
Oh, I also forgot to mention U-Turn on Jirachi is always fun too and can help prevent trappings.
That is true, Hip, but I could see status really only working well maybe mid to late game because early game I think people will take advantage of them being locked in a move and see that as an easy way to simply get a free turn in. I love Trick users though and its always fun trying to mindgame your opponent with 'em.
Togekiss runs a huge risk in trying to recover itself with the predictability of a Choiced Wish or Roost. I might give Choice Scarf Togekiss another try though.
Choice Metagross is extremely risky. Like Jirachi it can get trapped via Magnezone (and Dugtrio without a Scarf) and since it is slow it might get hurt a lot before it does much. Meteor Mash is a bit of a risk seeing as it has 85% accuracy and well you'll probably miss once or twice each game if you can keep it alive for awhile. Although... Explosion will usually make sure something dies before it goes down in the hands of a skilled player.
Wow I just did some calcs on your Kingdra, iKitsune... If you get the Crit on Blissey with Draco Meteor that has a chance of a 100% OHKO with Sandstorm or SR (min 703 HP 252 HP/0 SDef). Vs. 252/252 Calm Cressy in Rain Hydro Pump has a 97.17% chance of 2HKOing if she has Lefties, everything else is a surefire 2HKO. Interesting set, I hope I battle it sometime.
That is true, Hip, but I could see status really only working well maybe mid to late game because early game I think people will take advantage of them being locked in a move and see that as an easy way to simply get a free turn in. I love Trick users though and its always fun trying to mindgame your opponent with 'em.
Togekiss runs a huge risk in trying to recover itself with the predictability of a Choiced Wish or Roost. I might give Choice Scarf Togekiss another try though.
Choice Metagross is extremely risky. Like Jirachi it can get trapped via Magnezone (and Dugtrio without a Scarf) and since it is slow it might get hurt a lot before it does much. Meteor Mash is a bit of a risk seeing as it has 85% accuracy and well you'll probably miss once or twice each game if you can keep it alive for awhile. Although... Explosion will usually make sure something dies before it goes down in the hands of a skilled player.
Wow I just did some calcs on your Kingdra, iKitsune... If you get the Crit on Blissey with Draco Meteor that has a chance of a 100% OHKO with Sandstorm or SR (min 703 HP 252 HP/0 SDef). Vs. 252/252 Calm Cressy in Rain Hydro Pump has a 97.17% chance of 2HKOing if she has Lefties, everything else is a surefire 2HKO. Interesting set, I hope I battle it sometime.
Perhaps this is too divergent from the Choice strategy, but wouldn't the limitations of Choice Scarf making Tricking one on a kind of permanent, mostly irreparable status?
For all the reasons you listed Choice Scarf being bad, Trick Scarfers confer all those weaknesses onto the opponent's tanks or walls, preventing them from doing their job effectively. Choice Scarf Snorlax is a joke unless it's using Selfdestruct.
I don't know if Trickbanders or Trickspecser are a good option though, for the reasons you listed there. Trickscarf is risky because you can end up giving it to their sweeper and they outspeed you, but generally speaking it would seem Choice Scarf and Trick are a fairly harmonius combo. At that point the trickscarfer's job becomes a crippler, not damage dealing.
For all the reasons you listed Choice Scarf being bad, Trick Scarfers confer all those weaknesses onto the opponent's tanks or walls, preventing them from doing their job effectively. Choice Scarf Snorlax is a joke unless it's using Selfdestruct.
I don't know if Trickbanders or Trickspecser are a good option though, for the reasons you listed there. Trickscarf is risky because you can end up giving it to their sweeper and they outspeed you, but generally speaking it would seem Choice Scarf and Trick are a fairly harmonius combo. At that point the trickscarfer's job becomes a crippler, not damage dealing.
Flygon: Scarf Report Card
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Adamant
EVs: HP 80 / ATK 252 / SPD 176
*U-turn
*Outrage
*Earthquake
*Fire Punch
Power: ***
Coverage: *****
Consequences: ***
Accessibility: ***** (immunity to spikes, t-spikes, sand and resists SR)
Uncertainty: ****
Looking at Scarf Flygon first-glance, he appears unimpressive as a scarfer, with comparatively weak power, and bad consequences if one were to lock oneself into outrage/earthquake early game. In truth Flygon is rather weak at a scarf user's typical job of revenge killing. Scarf Flygon is odd because rather than revenge killing, he'll be finding most of his work making switch ins.
Its excellent defensive typing along with levitate and immunity to Scarf-Trick and Thunderwave mean it has a lot of opportunities to switch into a lot of tanks like Celebi, Jirachi, Cress and Starmie who switching into can be difficult, espcially for an offensive team. Starmie in particular, is a real bane to most offensive teams and Scarf-Gon's ability to out-speed it cannot be emphasized enough.
U-Turn gives it a way to deal some decent damage to these psychic types, and even pokemon like Rotom and Zapdos will be very annoyed being forced to play guessing games after flygon switches in on their electric attacks (since they lack the defenses to stand up to CB Flygon's offensive and are often completely walled by flygon). It also lets flygon finish off azelf and aerodactyle (who it can switch into with impunity and will usually be left at 1hp with sash). The scare of potentially getting hit by the special variant with Draco Meteor adds to the uncertainty. In the early game Flygon will use its switch ins to save its teammates from a bad situation, or help build greater momentum by curving the enemy's attacks and easing prediction. It may even get some revenge killing done here and there, especially with U-Turn.
The point where Flygon really shines though, is end game where STAB Dragon-Ground combo can beat the weakened enemy into the ground. Sure, "anything can sweep late game," but not everything has immunity to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sand and Resistance to SR to insure it will still be around late game. Dragon-Ground offensive typing is brilliant, especially when paired with the ability to outspeed the vast majority of offensive threats including most scarf users not named Gengar (who will rarely be seen around in late game).
Against typical end-game opponents:
-Flygon with 80 HP will almost never be ohko'd by Luke's Extreme Speed or Scizor's Bullet Punch, even CB variants. Earthquake/Fire Punch will put them down.
-Flygon also out-speeds all heatran and can stand up to fire blast/earth power. 1 on 1 flygon will always win.
-Breloom's typing and ability give it a good chance to make it to the end, but it cannot outspeed flygon nor beat flygon before flygon outrages it into the ground (assuming you have another pokemon asleep already). Any prior damage (like from substitutes used early game) will secure flygon the kill.
-Jolteon's Volt Absorb Ability and high speed make it another pokemon people like to hold onto until the late game, but scarf flygon destroys it too.
-Other Scarf users, including Heracross, P-Z and Medicham, will be outrun and eat Outrage.
-Jirachi and Metagross are very durable pokemon, but unless they have some way of outspeeding flygon or near perfect health (unlikely late game), they are going down to stab earthquake.
In other words, barring Mamoswine Flygon performs extremely well against other pokemon who are likely to survive to late game, espcially since the majority of them will be worn out from a lot of passive damage that flygon didn't have to deal with. Flygon's definitely not like your typical scarf-user, but it has a lot of subtle advantages to it.
Kingdra @Choice Specs
252Sp.Atk/252 Speed Modest
Draco Meteor
Hydro Pump / Surf
Dragon Pulse
HP Electric / Ice Beam / Surf
Power: ****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessbility: ***
Uncertainty: **
I would venture to say Kingdra is easily one of the best Choice Specs users and I completely forgot. Kingdra defines the neutral type coverage. You pick Water or you pick Dragon, simple as that. HP Electric is risky and unnecessary, since Gyarados doesn't like anything you will use anyway, and defensive Empoleon are rare (offensive takes a crapload from DM). You could actually get away with using Surf / Dragon Pulse / Hydro Pump / Draco Meteor and be perfectly fine. Two sweeping moves, and two "nukes." Also, Swift Swim > Sniper. Sniper is unreliable and rarely ever proves useful in battle.
Can I add another of it? Lucario Scarfer, a fantastic Cleaner as well as an excellent Revenge Killer, enters in the last turns of the game and in many cases it guarantees you the victory of the battle, and however I like also Porygon-Z with ChoiceSpecs.
Porygon-Z is an excellent user of both Specs and Band as far as power and neutrality are concerned, the only issue it has is switching in, hence why it is perhaps a better Choice Scarf revenge killer than those two. Otherwise, Porygon-Z hits hard as a truck, I think a Jolly Downloaded Choice Band Return is only 5% or so less powerful than a CB Outrage from Salamence. It OHKOs Blissey! Also, an Adamant Adaptability Choice Band Return is only slightly less powerful than that, and has about a 50% chance of the OHKO on Blissey (both taking SR into account).
Someone can yell at me for this total theorymon blurb, but I was thinking it would be interesting to think of: "What would the ultimate choice user be?"
IE., given the types, abilities and attacks that exist in game, what would the ultimate combinations be for Choice Band, Specs, and Scarf?
Assuming excellent Base Stats, here's what I got:
Choice Band "Ultimate"
Type 1: Dragon
Type 2: Ground
Ability: Guts / Huge Power
Attacks:
*Outrage
*Earthquake
*U-Turn / Pursuit
*Flare Blitz / Extreme Speed / Explosion
Power (of attacks): *****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessibility: *****
Uncertainty: *****
Status/Passive Report:
SR: Resisted
Spikes: Susceptible
Toxic Spikes: Grants Guts Boost
Sand: Immune
Hail: Susceptible
Will-o-Wisp: Grants Guts Boost
Thunder Wave: Immune
Toxic: Grants Guts Boost
Sleep: Susceptible
Keep in mind I drew this type considering what I thought was the best from all possible options, and Dragon Ground still comes out on top. Considering the attacks that exist, and the resistances granted, it is the ultimate typing for CB in my opinion. Dragon / Fight (with Close Combat) is probably a little better offensively, but leaves you susceptible to thunderwave and sand.
Dragon Ground with Guts gives you immunity to Electric, and resistance to fire, rock and poison, along with only 2 weaknesses. Guts means that toxic, toxic spikes and w-o-w will only boost your power more (most important is that w-o-w can't cripple you). Huge Power has its obvious merits on any physical attacker. The moves are self-explanatory.
Even without Guts though, it's clear that Garchomp and Flygon have obvious merits
Choice Specs "Ultimate"
Type 1: Water
Type 2: Ground
Ability: Magic Guard
Attacks:
*Water Spout
*Draco Meteor
*Earth Power
*Surf / Hydro Pump / U-Turn / Trick / Explosion
Power (Attacks): *****
Nuetral Coverage: *****
Accessibility: *****
Uncertainty: ****
Status/Passive report:
Stealth Rock: Immune
Spikes: Immune
Toxic Spikes: Immune
Stealth Rock: Immune
Sand: Immune
Hail: Immune
Will-o-Wisp: Immune (except Explosion/U-Turn attack decrease)
Thunder Wave: Immune
Toxic: Immune
Sleep: Susceptible
Without worrying about burn, Specs user can use Magic Guard which of course grants immunity to all the passive damage (lol, accessiblity). Water/Ground also gives you Immunity to Electric, and resistance to fire, rocks, steel and poison, with only one weakness to grass.
While Ultimate Bander uses Dragon over Water because of Water Fall's low base power, Ultimate Specs goes with Water to use STAB Water Spout. Draco Meteor of course grants near-perfect coverage with this, and STAB Earth Power takes out empoleon. Earth Power also grants more stable damage than the first two attacks, and also comboes well with Draco Meteor.
The Fourth Attack is a bit more open. Surf/Hydropump would grant reliable water STAB, important after Water Spout weakens from damage. The other options grant some uncertainty options. Without powering up U-Turn, Pursuit or Explosion (and likely running a -ATK nature) it's obvious that achieving the same level of uncertainty is a bigger challenge for a specs user than band. Barring a decent attack score and Focus Punch (not a great option on choice specs anyway), trick is the best option against Blissey.
Don't think CAP is about to release anything as broken as these two pokes any time soon. :P
Ultimate Choice Scarf seems a bit more complicated. I'm sure you guys can be creative . . . :P
IE., given the types, abilities and attacks that exist in game, what would the ultimate combinations be for Choice Band, Specs, and Scarf?
Assuming excellent Base Stats, here's what I got:
Choice Band "Ultimate"
Type 1: Dragon
Type 2: Ground
Ability: Guts / Huge Power
Attacks:
*Outrage
*Earthquake
*U-Turn / Pursuit
*Flare Blitz / Extreme Speed / Explosion
Power (of attacks): *****
Neutral Type Coverage: *****
Accessibility: *****
Uncertainty: *****
Status/Passive Report:
SR: Resisted
Spikes: Susceptible
Toxic Spikes: Grants Guts Boost
Sand: Immune
Hail: Susceptible
Will-o-Wisp: Grants Guts Boost
Thunder Wave: Immune
Toxic: Grants Guts Boost
Sleep: Susceptible
Keep in mind I drew this type considering what I thought was the best from all possible options, and Dragon Ground still comes out on top. Considering the attacks that exist, and the resistances granted, it is the ultimate typing for CB in my opinion. Dragon / Fight (with Close Combat) is probably a little better offensively, but leaves you susceptible to thunderwave and sand.
Dragon Ground with Guts gives you immunity to Electric, and resistance to fire, rock and poison, along with only 2 weaknesses. Guts means that toxic, toxic spikes and w-o-w will only boost your power more (most important is that w-o-w can't cripple you). Huge Power has its obvious merits on any physical attacker. The moves are self-explanatory.
Even without Guts though, it's clear that Garchomp and Flygon have obvious merits
Choice Specs "Ultimate"
Type 1: Water
Type 2: Ground
Ability: Magic Guard
Attacks:
*Water Spout
*Draco Meteor
*Earth Power
*Surf / Hydro Pump / U-Turn / Trick / Explosion
Power (Attacks): *****
Nuetral Coverage: *****
Accessibility: *****
Uncertainty: ****
Status/Passive report:
Stealth Rock: Immune
Spikes: Immune
Toxic Spikes: Immune
Stealth Rock: Immune
Sand: Immune
Hail: Immune
Will-o-Wisp: Immune (except Explosion/U-Turn attack decrease)
Thunder Wave: Immune
Toxic: Immune
Sleep: Susceptible
Without worrying about burn, Specs user can use Magic Guard which of course grants immunity to all the passive damage (lol, accessiblity). Water/Ground also gives you Immunity to Electric, and resistance to fire, rocks, steel and poison, with only one weakness to grass.
While Ultimate Bander uses Dragon over Water because of Water Fall's low base power, Ultimate Specs goes with Water to use STAB Water Spout. Draco Meteor of course grants near-perfect coverage with this, and STAB Earth Power takes out empoleon. Earth Power also grants more stable damage than the first two attacks, and also comboes well with Draco Meteor.
The Fourth Attack is a bit more open. Surf/Hydropump would grant reliable water STAB, important after Water Spout weakens from damage. The other options grant some uncertainty options. Without powering up U-Turn, Pursuit or Explosion (and likely running a -ATK nature) it's obvious that achieving the same level of uncertainty is a bigger challenge for a specs user than band. Barring a decent attack score and Focus Punch (not a great option on choice specs anyway), trick is the best option against Blissey.
Don't think CAP is about to release anything as broken as these two pokes any time soon. :P
Ultimate Choice Scarf seems a bit more complicated. I'm sure you guys can be creative . . . :P