Choice Scarf

Scarf Serperior is a waste. It's a perfect example of what I said before:

JT Swift said:
One of the main problems I see with Scarf is that people misuse it. You're not getting the most out of it if you just give it to something powerful to make it fast and powerful.
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Scarf Serperior is limited to endgame cleanup, or lucky sweeps when the opponent has no resists left. It already outspeeds everything, why are you locking into a Grass move? Stick to the standard... whatever that is. I'm not sure if Leaf Storm + SubDrain is popular.
 
Having a Choice Scarf on a fast Pokemon can have its merits, though. It allows you to net some free points for other stats, which can be reasonable when you need more bulk like Starmie (252 HP, 252 +SAtk, 0 Spe) or go mixed like Infernape (252 Atk, 252 SAtk, 0 +Spe).
No joke, I uses to use some guys like this one (when he was legal):

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Rush
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

He was a rapid spinner, actually a nice one; he checks other Excadrills, because he's faster and he can use its high amount of HP when switching in move he resists.
 
^thank you. I sometimes use Scarf to fool opponents who expect my usual Specs set. I usually cripple their "faster" counter using Scarf. My most recent success is Scarf Jolteon and Espeon. Don't laugh because the surprise factor usually nets a KO or two because most expect Specs from Jolt and a Defensive set from Espeon.
 
But why would you use Scarf Espeon when you could use something like Alakazam, Latios or Hydreigon? Espeon isn't the best sweeper, and it has better things to do.
 
King Serperior said:
Ok, sorry about that. I thought that we were talking a out Scarf usage in all tiers, dreamworld included.
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If we're including DW, then we have to talk about Genesect, since apparently Scarf is all he ever runs. I can see why people do it on him; Download means he gets the boost to his attacking stats anyway, speedy STAB U-Turn is great for scouting, and he's got some nice coverage. Still, since every single person seems to run scarf on him it makes him as predictable as can be, and generally you can work around it.

Which I think brings up an important point - Scarf is only so good precisely because you can't predict it. If a Pokémon literally always runs Scarf, you just mentally add 50% to its base speed and base all your predictions off of that. If a Pokémon merely might be running a scarf, you've got a lot more work to do. The switch ins and counters for a scarfed Pokémon are vastly different for that same Pokémon without a scarf, and it's that not knowing that keeps people on their toes (and makes the Scarf bluff more effective). Even worse are scarfers with Trick - you know have more unknowns to worry about, if you haven't established the item yet. Let's take Rotom-W.

Problem 1 - Is it scarfed?
If it is, it's going to outspeed different things to if it isn't (obviously). If I can predict it getting locked into a move I can switch in the proper counter 'mon - maybe a Ground type for Volt Switch, a Water Absorber for Hydro Pump, or just Blissey to soak up a special move. If I predict it not being scarfed, I can instead use something that outspeeds and kills.

Problem 2 - Will it Trick?
My counters just changed completely. Blissey changed from being a good switch in to soak up a special move, into a switch in that will be crippled if it comes in. If I can predict a Trick, though, I can switch in a choice user of my own, or something that doesn't mind the choice item - and after it's lost its Scarf, that something might be able to outspeed and KO.

This double layer of prediciton required makes Trick Scarfers far the most threatening users of the item, in my opinion.
 
@JT Swift, I use scarf Espeon as a "bulkier Alakazam that has defensive uses through Magic Bounce and functions as a revenge killer/late game sweeper. I don't use Hydriegon/Lati twins because Magic Bounce has more uses to my team than Levitate and it also makes 3 of my Pokemon ice weak. It's psychic typing adds a much needed fighting resist.
 
Choice Scarf Tyranitar was pretty much forgotten with the generation change, but it's still really good. Come in on Lati@s and outspeed and Pursuit it to death, same with Gengar, Celebi and Espeon. He can also revenge kill a lot of dangerous threats with his dual STAB moves but unfortunately not those that boost their speed. It's also great at coming on Chlorophyll sweepers, changing the weather, and revenge killing them with Stone Edge or Crunch.

Tyranitar is a bit slow though, so when I want something that revenge kills speedboosters as well, I use Terrakion (who doesn't), but I've been thinking of trying some of the Scarf users I used in Gen IV: Scarf Infernape was really cool back then, and Scarf Lucario was pretty neat as well (though probably outclassed by Terrakion now). Both can't revenge kill Volcarona though, which is unfortunate.
 
I haven't seen any reason to use scarf terrakion over similar revenge killers.

Saying "Close Combat is hella strong" has nothing to do with whether it has a choice scarf, and if what you want is the strongest close combat, why don't you put a Life Orb or a choice band on it?

Remember how in generation 4 no one used scarf lucario? They didn't not use it because it was weak, they didn't use it because it wasn't versatile at all.

If you're going to use scarf terrakion as a sweeper, thats an entirely different game then using it as a revenge killer, which is a role that scarf terrakion isn't particularly strong in.

You can slap a scarf on any strong pokemon and claim that now its a revenge killer/sweeper rolled into one, but really you're only using something that is less good at both.

Really stop and think about the implications of putting a choice scarf on something with 105 (iirc) base speed, does it really need that speed? I guess based on generation 4 where infernape did sometimes get a scarf (with uturn i might add) that 105 is the outer limit of whats good to scarf.
 
You have to consider the fact that Scarf Terrakion is pretty much the only counter to Volcarona in the game (outside of Shucca Terrakion too I guess). That in itself makes it usage something to always worth considering. Volcarona might require a ton of team support to use well, but if it has that team support having a pokemon like Scarf Terra in the ranks is never a bad move.

I've also completely forgotten about Scarf Tar from last gen. I'm almost tempted to use it but it just wouldn't be as effective as SpD tar. I don't know. Also ScarfGar is a pretty sweet set still, considering the pokemon who try to come in on Gengar are still basically the same (blah blah Chansey blah blah Blissey) and neither of which like getting tricked a scarf. Revenge killing is such a strange topic this gen, since I haven't thought of a revenge killer on my team in a long time -- it's been mostly just sweepers and tanks.
 
scarftar is very very useful. it beats up on starmie and gengar lime it did last gen, but now it has tornadus, latios, latias, and terakion all right underneath it to either trap or in terakion's case revenge kill.

thundurus being banned hurts its viability a bit but if you need gengar dead scarftar is the best option short of scarf scizor (who is really useful too).
 
I always think it's a good idea to use a fast Pokemon on my team that has a Choice Scarf. Just to be safe about the revenge kill. But I think the real strength of the Choice Scarf is putting it on things that people wouldn't expect. You only need one turn to change the game in your favor and steal a win.
 
Gen. Empoleon said:
You have to consider the fact that Scarf Terrakion is pretty much the only counter to Volcarona in the game (outside of Shucca Terrakion too I guess).
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Bulky Volcarona loses to Scarf Darmanitan (who has an insanely powerful Sheer Force (and sometimes sun) boosted Flare Blitz. However, Timid max Speed Volcarona outspeeds it and beats it with Hidden Power Ground or Rock, so in that case, Scarf Terrakion is superior.

While we're on the topic of Darmanitan, Choice Scarf Darmanitan is a fine Heatran lure, and you can safely U-turn if you see it coming. If it's low on health and carrying anything but a Choice Scarf of its own (probably Air Balloon, which you have now bursted with U-turn), you can trap it with Dugtrio or even Magnezone (with Hidden Power Ground).

I'm happy to see so much discussion going on here. Keep it up guys.
 
Gen. Empoleon said:
You have to consider the fact that Scarf Terrakion is pretty much the only counter to Volcarona in the game (outside of Shucca Terrakion too I guess). That in itself makes it usage something to always worth considering. Volcarona might require a ton of team support to use well, but if it has that team support having a pokemon like Scarf Terra in the ranks is never a bad move.
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Are you sure? Back when I was still using Eviolite Chansey in OU, (stopped using her in favor of a more offensive team) she COMPLETELY LOL'd at the standard Volcarona. Come in on a Quiver Dance, Toxic it, then wear it down with seismic toss, softboiling when necessary and using Aromatherapy when Flame Body rears its ugly head. Any Volcarona without rest (and I've seen very few with it) gets completely pwnd.

I haven't used this other mon against Volcarona, but theorymonning tells me that Specially Defensive Unaware Quagsire also walls Volcarona, especially with Stockpile, but I could be wrong. Am I?
 
yes, max/max+ Quagsire can wall Volcarona, but it's always better to revenge against it thanks to the SpDef drop chance of Bug Buzz.

Anyway, I'm posting to say that Scarf Landorus is infinitely better than Scarfakion. His coverage is (marginally) better, and he's only slightly weaker outside of sand. Thanks to his great ability, he is much stronger in sand, which is, obviously, very common. The only Pokemon Terrakion beats that Landorus doesn't are the base 105s and maybe the base 108s, neither of which use scarf or speed boosting moves. The real kicker, though, is U-turn. Essential for basically all scarf users is the ability to scout the opponent for counters. Furthermore, Landorus's two immunities to common types as compared to Terrakion's 0 mean he has more opportunities to switch in. To whoever said it's a sin to use a scarfer other than Terrakion, it's really a sin to use Terrakion when you have Landobro.
 
Please. Who uses Quagsire or chansey (I guess Blissey too) on an offensive team? Albeit I should've specified offensive counter -- so in that part it's my fault. While Quagsire is a good mon (hella) it can rarely be put into an offensive team (the goal is to carry momentum) and it can't do much outside of stockpiling / cursing / amnesia to hopefully stall something out. Let alone the thought of stalling out itself is a bad idea, considering crits happen. You just sitting there sponging attacks (even at +6 / +6 defenses) isn't a good move honestly.
 
How about Scarf MienShao? With Team Preview you won't spam HJK if you see a ghost, and it has U-Turn for scouting. I haven't run calcs but I'm pretty sure HJK still does major damage to the things that are faster and resist since most of them are frail. (i.e. Starmie, LandBro, Alakazam).
 
Off-topic: I think CBNite is one of the best offensive counters to volcarona, as it can easily handle the bulky and chesto-rest sets, and can cripple Volc by doing 67% minimum damage to the offensive set with extremespeed, which will limit its sweep greatly.

On-topic: The best pokemon to hold a Choice Scarf are those who aren't weak to priority with good resistances, examples being things like Jirachi and Metagross. Even though their offensive typings aren't great, they have good resistances, good natural bulk, and good coverage moves. As a bonus, both also have trick. Metagross in particular has Meteor Mash/Earthquake/Ice Punch/Thunderpunch/Zen Headbutt off of base 135 attack, as well as Trick to cripple Skarmory and bulky setup pokemon. Resistances are the most important thing to consider for a scarf pokemon because with more switch-in opportunities, they can clean up opponents more easily when they are forced to play around them.
 
i absolutely despise choice scarf because i feel speed should be the single most important limiter of what can allow things to check/counter something and choice scarf fucks with that.

i loved the excadrill meta because of the lack of viable scarfers so they couldn't beat my teams by surprise random scarfer.

it's the only item that has earned 100% of my hate i don't feel the restrictions of choice scarf makes up for the power that is to beating what would had otherwise counter/checked it speed wise.

i don't mind the other choice items because they don't allow this.
 
How about Scarf MienShao? With Team Preview you won't spam HJK if you see a ghost, and it has U-Turn for scouting. I haven't run calcs but I'm pretty sure HJK still does major damage to the things that are faster and resist since most of them are frail. (i.e. Starmie, LandBro, Alakazam).
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Scarf Kojondo is boss.

I've been running it for a while, and it is my late game cleaner. Without any Ghosts, I am free to fire off a base 125 Attack Stat HJK and rape everything. If the opponents Ghost is Gengar, Stone Edge is doing major damage after SR. U-Turn for prediction games, and Regeneration to heal off Toxic or Hazards. Since it has Regeneration, I usually am at full health, allowing me to take attacks like Hidden Powers and Rock moves and go for the kill. If I barley survive an attack, I can Regenerate off damage as well. I run Adamant, it outruns Adamant/Modest Volcarona/Salamence/Base 100's after a Dragon/Quiver Dance. If I ran Jolly, it could do a lot more, but its still useful nonetheless.

With the advent of Scarf Terakion, its glory days are over though. I can easily revenge kill Banded Terakions though, and come in on Stone Edges if I have enough health.
 
Personally, I'm a huge fan of the choice scarf. Love it or hate it, it's always going to be around, so may as well embrace it nice and early.

I like it, as it makes some things that wouldn't usually be viable perfectly acceptable to run, which only adds more variety to any meta. Variety is a good thing right? Noone wants another VGC11, with the same old 8 pokemon every match.
The point about it allowing for redistribution of EV's is also great, if you can afford to lock into a move, to take more hits, it can be the perfect item.

Unfortunately, I can't agree with AJC's point about it ruining counters. It's not THAT broken, and it's upto the player to lock into a move that will still do the job, now it is going first. I'd argue that the onus is more on the player, to think ahead, and identify the check in TP, than just banging on a scarf.
 
......Huh...Okay...

Gen. Empoleon said:
You have to consider the fact that Scarf Terrakion is pretty much the only counter to Volcarona in the game (outside of Shucca Terrakion too I guess).
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There's more scarf Pokemon that deal with Volcarona than just Terrakion.

Scarf Landorus
Scarf Infernape
Scarf Mienshao
Scarf Archeops
Scarf Switcheroo Floatzel
Scarf Garcho-Oh wait...

Really any Scarf mon with Rock Slide. There's a lot of Base 100 Pokemon that beat Volcarona Scarfed, but it's a Speed tie so they're not worth naming.

In fact looking at that, a lot of them KO Dragonite too after SR.


One thing I've been wanting to know is what happened to Scarf Mienshao? I never see Scarf versions any more. Considering that people said it was the "perfect scarf pokemon" I can't really figure out why the sudden decline happened. Is it just out-classed by Terrakion or something? I see people in the thread talking about it still, but I don' see it around much.


To make a quick mention of a Scarfer I love, Trick Scarf Metagross. It just messes with teams so badly. It used to be one of my fav Pokemon to take down Thundurus with.

(Post #300? ...I need to post more...)
 
Running Scarf on an already fast pokemon does have its merits. If your team has problems with SS Cloyster, Scarf Timid Starmie outspeeds at +2 and OHKOs with TBolt.
 
I love Choice Scarf. It basically outspeeds a lot of threats and kill them, and if u can predict well with it, you can ko a lot of pokes.

As a lot of people said in this thread, Scarf Terrakion is a great revenge killer, using its already fast speed to outspeed threats like +1 Volcarona, Thundurus or Starmie. Its STAB CC also really hurts and can work as a late-game sweeper amazingly well.

Next, Scarf Tyranitar is a very underused and very underrated sweeper. Its nearly just as good as it was in Gen 4. It nearly has the same role as Terrakion but T-tar is more defensive, can summon SS, has STAB Crunch and Pursuit but doesn't have as much speed (but it still outspeeds base 115s) and doesn't have STAB CC. It depends on your team.

Even though it's extremely common I wanna give a mention to Rotom-W because STAB Hydro Pump is amazing in this metagame plus it can counter Politoed extremely well. It also has volt switch, which can add momentum and scout.

I also want to give an honorable mention to Scarf Latios.
 
That was before the banning of Excadrill, the greatest upheaval of the gen V meta since Aldaron's Proposal.
 
You may have noticed that Gen made the first reply in this thread so it doesn't matter. This is not the place to discuss it.

Anyway Pwnemon is exactly right. Before Excadrill got the boot, Speed was almost irrelevant, and super effective priority was precious (Mach Punch Conkeldurr, Aqua Jet Azumarril, PriorityApe, PriorityLuke, etc.). Two Swords Dances and some flinch hax from Rock Slide made taking down Gliscor and Skamory less of a chore, than everything after that was gravy. What was the point of using a Scarf outside of Politoed (who supplied its own way of negating sand and effectively receives a STAB boost) or anything that thrived in any weather other than sand? Now that Excadrill's gone, it's now worth it to invest in Speed and bring revenge killing back to life. Choice Scarf is relevant again, and thus warrants discussion.
 
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