Cloyster (Done) [Approval 2/2] [GP 2/2]

[Lockeness]

[Approval 2/2] [GP check 2/2] Ready for Upload! Many thanks to everyone who helped out with this analysis!

[Overview]

<p>Cloyster's purpose in OU revolves around one move—Spikes. Cloyster is one of only two OU Pokemon that can effectively lay Spikes, thereby dealing 12.5% damage per switch-in on all Pokemon, barring Flying-types. As a Spikes user, Cloyster boasts a decently powerful Surf and Explosion. These two moves in conjunction give it the ability to support its team offensively once Spikes are on the field. Cloyster also has decent Speed, which it can use to outrun and Explode on threats that its main competition, Forretress, cannot. Cloyster's better offensive synergy, STAB, and more dangerous Explosion are the primary reasons to use it over Forretress as a Spikes setter.</p>

<p>While Cloyster shines in its niche role as a user of both Spikes and Rapid Spin, it still has several glaring weaknesses. Cloyster's low HP and Special Defense, combined with a lack of reliable recovery outside of Leftovers, prevent it from taking more than a handful of attacks before being KOed. Forretress has more defensive staying power because of key resistances to Psychic- and Normal-type attacks, an immunity to Toxic, and only one weakness. Forretress has one other major selling point over Cloyster—Hidden Power Bug. Starmie is one of the most prominent spinners in OU, and with Hidden Power Bug Forretress can nail an important 2HKO after one round of Spikes damage. However, despite Cloyster's issues, it can still provide unique advantages as a Spikes user and should never be overlooked for a spot on either offensive or defensive teams.</p>

[SET]
name: Offensive
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Surf
move 3: Toxic / Ice Beam
move 4: Explosion
item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This Cloyster is easy to use. Come in on a weak physical attacker or wall, set up Spikes, fire away with Surf or Toxic, and switch out when the opponent brings in one of Cloyster's counters. Spikes is an easy first choice and is the main draw to using Cloyster. The damage that Spikes deals per switch will punish opposing teams that try to double switch in order to gain better match-ups. Grounded prediction-oriented Pokemon such as Nidoking, Marowak, Machamp, and Rhydon will especially suffer from Spikes damage. Over a longer match, the damage from Spikes can play a key role in wearing the opponent down into KO range for boosting sweepers and will help grind down opposing stall teams. Surf provides an excellent offensive option for Cloyster to exercise against any Misdreavus, Gengar, Rhydon, or Skarmory hoping to switch into an Explosion. Surf is one of the main differences between Cloyster and Forretress. Unlike Forretress, Cloyster can go on the offensive against a wide range of opponents. Surf allows Cloyster to act as a solid Marowak counter on teams that lack Skarmory and as an additional support option against Snorlax. Cloyster also makes a pretty good Quagsire counter. Toxic is incredibly useful for hitting Water-type spinners such as Starmie and opposing Cloyster. Ice Beam can be used for super effective coverage against Zapdos and Exeggutor, but Toxic is generally a much better option. Explosion is the final option and gives Closyter an ace in the hole against Starmie, Raikou, Suicune, Snorlax, Blissey, and Zapdos. Explosion, used effectively, can help prevent Cloyster's team from being swept in emergency situations.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With the right support, Cloyster can be a useful choice for both offensive and defensive teams looking for a Spikes setter. Cloyster really enjoys support from Ghost-types that can block Rapid Spin, thereby keeping Spikes on the field for as long as possible. Misdreavus is the best option as it can serve as a very effective stallbreaker and can take hits better than Gengar. Misdreavus is also not weak to common Psychic- and Ground-type moves. Misdreavus's ability to force switches through the threat of Mean Look and Perish Song, combined with Cloyster's ability to lay Spikes, can easily rack up damage on opposing teams. Cloyster also enjoys support from more offensive Pokemon that benefit from Spikes support. Mixed and set-up sweepers such as Zapdos, Raikou, Nidoking, and Snorlax love the extra damage Spikes provides. The additional passive damage will allow these sweepers to nail important KOs against opposing Pokemon such as Snorlax.</p>

<p>Cloyster absolutely loves partners that can force switches. Phazing moves, including Roar and Whirlwind, will force the opponent to switch often, racking up large amounts of Spikes damage. Phazers such as Raikou, Rhydon, Steelix, and Skarmory all make wonderful partners. Raikou is especially noteworthy for its ability to slam Starmie with a super effective Thunderbolt or Thunder. Few teams will carry more than one or two counters to Raikou, allowing for opportunities to switch in and phaze. Cloyster also works well with Toxic support. The extra damage from Spikes can allow Toxic to KO an opponent one turn sooner. Forcing opponents to use Rest instead of attacking is another benefit to using Toxic. When using Spikes it is important to keep the long-term benefit in mind.</p>

<p>Offensive Cloyster also works well on teams centered around Explosion. Fast-paced teams that rely on Explosion love the Spikes support Cloyster can provide as well as its ability to draw out and Explode on Starmie. While Exploding on Starmie will allow it to use its faster Rapid Spin, it will open up a hole other Explosion users or sweepers can exploit. Cloyster's ideal use on an Explosion team would be to set up Spikes and then Explode or attack against an opposing wall or dangerous switch-in such as Snorlax. While Explosion teams are risky, they can also be surprisingly effective. Cloyster helps nullify some of that risk by forcing the opponent to play in predictable ways, such as always bringing in Starmie as Cloyster sets up Spikes. The extra Spikes support for suicide teams can also be very effective in nailing certain hard-to-KO opponents with Explosion.</p>

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Spikes
move 3: Surf
move 4: Toxic / Rest / Ice Beam
item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Cloyster is one of only three Pokemon that can use both Spikes and Rapid Spin. Combining the roles of both a Spikes user and spinner turns Cloyster into an effective utility Pokemon that can be used on both defensive and offensive teams. Spikes allows Cloyster to provide team support through passive damage. Rapid Spin allows Cloyster to clear Spikes from its own side of the field. With a combination of Rapid Spin and Spikes, Cloyster can fulfill two duties at the same time—clearing and laying entry hazards.</p>

<p>The third slot is for Surf as the obligatory STAB move. Surf provides a constant option to wear down opponents when necessary. Surf is suggested over Ice Beam because it does more damage against spinners such as opposing Cloyster and Forretress; it also offers better coverage against Ground- and Rock-types such as Tyranitar, Steelix, and Rhydon. The ability to go on the offensive with Surf, combined with Cloyster's better Speed, are the primary reasons for using Cloyster over Forretress as a defensive spinner and Spikes setter. The last slot is for a move of your choice. Toxic is the suggested option because it will give Cloyster an option against bulky Water-types that take little damage from Surf. Toxic will also force certain opponents to use Rest instead of attacking or to switch out to avoid more damage. Rest is useful to restore Cloyster's health, but without a cleric it's virtually useless. A sleeping Cloyster is nothing but dead weight and will often fail to survive the two turns required to wake up. However, Rest will allow Cloyster to become a 100% Steelix counter if there are no entry hazards on your side of the field. Ice Beam can be used if you desire super effective coverage against Dragonite, Exeggutor, and Zapdos, but Toxic is a far superior option overall. It is also good to keep in mind that Cloyster cannot use Explosion and Rapid Spin on the same set.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Because its primary goal is to keep Spikes on the field, Cloyster will always want partners that can spinblock effectively or KO opposing spinners. Getting rid of opposing Starmie and Cloyster is paramount if you want to be able to keep Spikes on the field. Misdreavus is wonderful as a spinblocker because it can force out both Cloyster and Forretress with the threat of Mean Look and Perish Song; it also has the benefit of not being weak to Starmie's Psychic like Gengar is. Its Ghost typing gives Misdreavus an immunity to Explosion and Rapid Spin, as well as a resistance to Hidden Power Bug. Misdreavus will need to be careful of switching into a Toxic or Surf though; it will be easily worn down if it isn't careful. Raikou is always a great option because it can easily KO Starmie and Cloyster with a STAB Thunder. Raikou also works as a wonderful phazing partner and can switch in on the Electric-type attacks that Cloyster fears so strongly. Tyranitar is a wonderful partner for Cloyster and spinners in general. Its powerful Pursuit will nail Ghost-types that switch into Cloyster to block Rapid Spin. Once any spinblockers are gone, Cloyster will be able to remove Spikes with impunity.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Beyond the stated moves, Cloyster has a few other interesting options it can use to surprise the opponent. Clamp is a good option when using Explosion because it will prevent the opponent from switching out to a Steel- or Ghost-type. Hidden Power Electric or Grass can give Cloyster an edge against opposing Cloyster in Rapid Spin and Spikes wars. Hidden Power will do more damage than Toxic right off the bat but it will fail to do significant damage to Starmie. Icy Wind is an option against faster opponents to lower their Speed. Icy Wind's Speed drop will give Cloyster an edge over Tentacruel, Raikou, and Starmie especially. The ability to lower the opponent's Speed can also boost Cloyster's chances of using Explosion before the opponent can set up Reflect, use Rapid Spin, or KO Cloyster. Reflect is another decent option for Cloyster. The extra Defense can let Cloyster survive a little bit longer and will give its team a nice boost when it switches out. However, it should be noted that like Explosion, Reflect is illegal with Rapid Spin.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Cloyster's entire purpose is to keep Spikes on the field; therefore, preventing this is the easiest way to check Cloyster. Rapid Spin users such as Starmie, Forretress, and opposing Cloyster make your own Cloyster's life a nightmare and decrease its ability to support its team. Starmie is not afraid of Cloyster's Surf and can easily switch in and remove Spikes with Rapid Spin. Opposing Cloyster, with their high Defense and resistance to Surf, are able to not only remove Spikes but also set up their own. Forretress is bulkier than both Starmie and Cloyster, is immune to Toxic, and resists Explosion. Like Cloyster, Forretress can both remove opposing Spikes and lay its own. However, because Cloyster's Surf will 3HKO, Forretress will not be able to take on Cloyster directly.</p>

<p>Beyond spinning, Cloyster is easily checked by powerful offensive opponents. While Cloyster boasts sky-high Defense, it has gutter-worthy Special Defense. Powerful Electric-types such as Raikou and Zapdos are especially threatening thanks to Thunderbolt's easy OHKO. Ghost-types, such as Gengar and Misdreavus, also make good checks because they have decent Special Defense, access to Electric-type moves, and the ability to block Rapid Spin and Explosion. Gengar will always OHKO with Thunder, and Misdreavus with Thunder can OHKO after one turn of Spikes damage. Cloyster, however, will seldom try to stay in on these opponents, preferring to use Surf or Toxic on the switch and then switching away to a fellow phazer or special wall. Powerful physical attacks will also spell doom for Cloyster. STAB Rock Slide will do a great deal of damage to Cloyster, but no Rock-types will enjoy switching in on Cloyster's STAB Surf. Keep in mind that using walls or tanks to check Cloyster is always a risky proposition because of the threat from Explosion and the possibility of Cloyster setting up Spikes or using Rapid Spin.</p>

 

[Jorgen]

Plenty of comments, separated by terrible formatting that I'm too tired to fix at the moment.

Introduction:

Cloyster occupies a unique niche as one of only three Pokemon with access to both Rapid Spin and Spikes.

GP-sounding here, but by definition, this isn't unique. Furthermore, having access to both Rapid Spin and Spikes is ambiguous; technically, four Pokemon have access to both moves (Delibird lol), but only 3 can have both at the same time (Cloy, Forry, Smeargle).


Mentioning Cloyster's secondary attributes and Spiking prowess in the same breath is a no-no. The only reason why Cloy is OU is because of the actual move called Spikes. The other stuff, such as its Defense and access to Explosion, are just gravy that let it add something to team synergy other than Spikes. This limited capacity to provide team synergy is what separates Cloyster from Forretress, since Forretress is actually superior when you compare the two as pure Spikers.


Listing the number of Resists and Weaknesses doesn't tell people much. Being more specific about why Forry lasts longer (Toxic immunity, Higher HP, key Normal and Psychic resistances, less exploitable Special Defense, lack of exploitable Rock and Electric weaknesses) is key.



Offensive Set:

I feel like the defensive set should actually come first, to be honest. Also, for both sets, Toxic should be the go-to option for the fourth slot. It nails opposing Cloyster and gives you play against Starmie. There are so many semi-viable options for that fourth slot that I don't know how worthwhile it is to even bother with Slash-ins. Just mention alternative options for this slot in Other Options. Also, the STAB should always be Surf, with Ice Beam a possibility only in the fourth slot. Surf is the better STAB by far.


Almost nothing is getting 2HKOed or OHKOed in GSC, and if it is, Spikes is not worth it. If anything, Spikes turns 4HKOs into 3HKOs. There's much more to it, though; just know that the chip damage is really really useful in a lot of situations. Spikes is rarely used for specific instances of getting KOs.


Cloyster's Explosion is mostly good for deterring Snorlax and Electric switch-ins. Generally, you'd rather Vap or Blissey (or, ideally, your own Cloyster) take the Explosion than one of these.


The defenisve usage of Explosion in emergencies against things such as Vaporeon and Drumlax should be mentioned.


Gengar as a Spin-blocker alongside Cloyster doesn't work as well as Missy because Starmie hits the former for Super-Effective damage. Plus, Gengar has trouble recovering from any kind of hit, even a STAB Surf from opposing Cloyster, whereas Misdreavus has it easier because it's forcing plays left and right.


Raikou should be the first Phazer out of your mouth when mentioning effective Roar users that capitalize off of Cloyster's Spikes. Also, remove Zapdos from that list of Phazers that capitalize off of Spikes; not enough people use Zapdos as a Phazer to warrant its mention.


Defensive Set:

NOBODY uses Blastoise. Do not mention it in a GSC OU Analysis.


Again, Ice Beam is strictly an option for the 4th move slot, and an inferior one to Toxic at that. Surf is just so much better for letting Cloyster do what it's supposed to do, whereas the only thing Ice Beam offers is gravy.


Cloyster doesn't care about being walled by Blissey. Blissey means free Spikes unless it Thunderbolts, so Cloyster loves Blissey. Lack of Explosion mostly means that it can't stop threats like Vaporeon and Snorlax from setting up in its face, and it can't kill common switch-ins such as Raikou and Zapdos.


The first Additional Comments paragraph for this set is a mess.


Umbreon doesn't really Pursuit Starmie all that well. Starmie just stalls it out unless Umbreon gets lucky with the Critical Hits. Also, if it's a Mean Looker, it doesn't synergize well with Cloyster in particular.


All the good partners to the offensive set are good partners for the defensive set... except those that capitalize off of offensive Explosions.


Other Options:

Hidden Power Electric/Grass needs some love. It lets Cloyster win the Spikes war against other Cloysters.


Checks and Counters:

Cloyster is more of a messenger; the main thing you should be countering when you're countering Cloyster is Spikes, not Cloyster itself. Keep this in mind, because as of now, Cloyster's Counters section looks like it's focused entirely too much on walling or killing Cloyster itself, which is not necessarily the goal when fighting Cloyster. To help you out more directly, Starmie should be listed as the chief counter.

 

[Lockeness]

Jorgen's suggestions have been implemented. If other commentors could give me their thoughts on the positioning of the two sets that would be great. The current analysis has the sets in the order they are now, but I can change it if need be.

 

[Bluewind]

"Like Cloyster, Forretress can both remove opposing Spikes and lay its own. With Toxic Forretress can easily win a Rapid Spin/Spikes war with Cloyster"

Surf hits Forretress pretty hard, iirc for a 3HKO, so that's probably not the best thing to say.

 

[Lockeness]

I ran my own clacs: A Forretress with Leftovers will be 3HKO'd if Cloyster gets nothing but high damage rolls. Your point is still valid and so I changed that sentence.

 

[Crystal_]

I'd like to go step by step, lets focus firstly on improving the overview, ok?

Overview should focus on Spikes as the most important thing (as Jorgen said and thus you edited), but then, Explosion as the second most important thing, and mention that thanks to STAB surf, Cloyster packs one of the most rewarding explosions in the game (I'd like to see the OV focus more on Cloy's explosion). And now, it's when you mention that he can also RS (although not reliably because of awful HP, SpD, defensive typing, bad longevity in general) saying that explosion+RS is not a possible combination, and lastly that he can also offer few limited defensive uses such as Marowak and especially Steelix.

The comparison to Forr is too long imo, it's basically: Forr it's better at spiking, mostly because it's able to keep Spikes vs Starmie with HP bug, and with Toxic can often outlast Cloyster, and Forr has higher longevity overall; on the other hand, forr's explsion is really limited and mostly useful as a deterrent vs things like drumlax and that with the standard moveset (spikes, spin hp, toxic) he doesn't offer anything defesnively other than maybe exeggutor sometimes. And can't spin vs Gengar.

 

[Jorgen]

I don't know about Cloyster's Explosion being all that rewarding. Here's why.

STAB Surf, in theory, gives Cloy a good chance at a relevant (read: unresisted) Explosion, since it scares off all the Water-weak Rocks and the other specially weak normal resistors. However, in practice, Cloyster's Explosion is tough to pull off and doesn't reliably target anything aside from Starmie. Granted, exploding on Starmie can be rewarding if you're using Machamp or Charizard, but you're not keeping Spikes in the process (the main point of Cloyster) unless you bluff something like Gengar Spin Block, and in general, it's a poor Explosion.

I find that Cloyster's Explosion is usually used defensively to stop a sweep, secure a win in the endgame, or to deter things like Snorlax and Vaporeon from setting up on it. This is because, offensively, the best case is that you end up Exploding on Raikou, but you have to catch it on the switch, and little to nothing is really forcing it to switch in instead of things like Starmie, other Cloyster, Vaporeon, and Ghost-types.

Then again, this could be said about just about any Exploder... except for Gengar and Snorlax. Those guys are usually good about taking out their targets. No matter what, it's a good idea to mention that Cloyster's Explosion will almost always be unresisted since all the prominent normal resistors take a lot of damage from STAB Surf. However, you should also mention that it's not necessarily a "good" offensive Explosion.

 

[Earthworm]

Just for clarification, cloyster has a very good chance of 3hkoing forretress with surf. The roll is 36-42 and it needs an average of 37.5% for the 3hko, and can ch.

Although that isn't very important anyway since forretress switches out a lot of the time after one surf.


Also I think the exploder set is much better than the spinner, cloyster can threaten a lot of pokemon with explosion and once you spin your opponent knows you are a fragile weak piece of seafood. The only time I would use the spinner is if I need spikes and spin in one slot and forretress doesn't fit well on that particular team.

 

[Crystal_]

Yeah, what usually happens between Forr and Cloy is: Cloy spikes, Forr Toxic's; Cloy Surfs, Forr Spikes; Forr switches out.

I consider exploding into Starmie without keeping Spikes a good thing. Generally, when my team revolves around Spikes I stick with Forr, since it's better at keeping them (and will usually be able to spin against Cloy teams in the long run). But when I use Cloyster, I sometimes even consider using it more because of his ability to potentially explode into Starmie rather than for his ability to lay down Spikes, because for fast teams, spikes aren't really that important. Sure, exploding into Raikou/Suicune would be better, but keep in mind that exploding into Starmie not only opens up things like Champ/Zard, also lets other mons like Steelix and Exeggutor explode into the other defesnive walls.

 

[Lockeness]

I edited in a few changes to the Overview and tightened it up with a more linear focus on what Cloyster actually does. I also tweaked the description of Explosion's uses to be more consistent with the general feedback I'm getting. More suggestions are welcome!

 

[Crystal_]

Overview

Not only does Cloyster have access to Spikes but it also has decent speed, marvelous defense, good dual STABs, Rapid Spin

I don't like this sentence. It's... true but unnecessary imo.

Cloyster's Explosion is an excellent deterent for Electric-types like Raikou and special walls like Blissey

I prefer the word "bait-explode" (if I'm not mistakened deterrent means something like scare out, which is not completely true in our case), and you should mention Starmie, since it's what switches into Cloy to spin most of the time. And maybe Snorlax too.

Comparison to forr should focus more on forr hp bug-ing Starmie which lets it keep spikes. For example this sentence Forretress has much higher HP, key resistances to Psychic and Normal attacks, immunity to Toxic, HP Bug for Starmie and only one weakness- Fire , should start with something like Forr has access to STAB Hpbug which gives him a much better shot at keeping spikes vs Starmie, and immunity to Toxic can help outlasting Cloy imo. Or here: Cloyster also does not have the same long term defensive bulk as Forretress. For these reasons Forretress often makes a better Rapid Spinning Spiker. HP bug is again, the main reason Forr is better than Cloy at spiking.

I'd like to see mentioned that one of Cloy's advantages over Forr is ground coverage, mainly Steelix. This is for example more informative that saying Cloy has marvelous defense, decent speed and dual stabs imo, sentence that, as I said, I would remove.


The set comments of the offensive set looks great just one thing:
Explosion is the final option and gives Closyter an ace in the hole against Starmie, Snorlax, Raikou, Zapdos, Suicune and Blissey. If 6 are a lot of examples, Blissey should be the first to take out imo.


Lets work on these two sections first.

 

[Lockeness]

I think I got in most of Crystal's changes. I also got rid of a lot of awkward sentences and cleaned up the overview. As always more suggestions are awesome!

 

[Crystal_]

I like the overview much more now. Just two small things:

It's not necessary to catch Starmie on the switch-in, its a great option nonetheless, but you can still use spikes as he switches in, and then explode as he spins.
With STAB Surf Cloyster can scare away many of the Rock and Steel types that try to wall Explosion. Cloyster's Explosion allows it to act as bait for Electric-types like Raikou and special walls like Blissey. A well timed Explosion can also be used to nail Starmie on the switch. --> Cloyster's Explosion allows it to act as bait for Starmie and special walls like Raikou and Blissey. With STAB Surf Cloyster can scare away many of the Rock and Steel types that try to wall Explosion. What do you think about this change

Also, haha why do you love Blissey so much, its pretty mediocre in GSC. Blissey, Raikou, Starmie, Suicune, Snorlax, and Zapdos: Honestly, Blissey shouldn't be first in this list (should be last), Starmie should be the first imo.


OK, no the AC

Remove Nidoking from AC. You can make a mention about mixed sweepers along with set-up sweepers, but that Nidoking seems randomly spalshed in.

Misdreavus is the best option as it can serve as a very effective stall-breaker, and can take hits better than Gengar. Misdreavus is also not weak to common Psychic or Ground-type moves, including Starmie's Psyichic.

Grass types are so rare, no need to mention them. I honestly don't like the last three sentences of the first paragraph, i'd just remove it, and in the second paragraph, you can say that Raikou (apart from what you said about phazing) is a good special wall that ersist electric.

Raikou is especially noteworthy for its ability to slam Starmie with a Super Effective Thunderbolt or Thunder.

This is true, but this is more like that Starmie can't spin into Raikou, but if Starmie happens to by dragged in into Rhydon/Skarm/Lix, Starmie can spin. Raikou is the best offensive phazer.

Poisoned opponents will be forced to either switch of use Rest, giving an opportunity to Cloyster's team to bring in one of their own phazers, or a boosting sweeper.

I'd just say that toxic+spikes racks up damage much more quickly. It's not that they are forced to switch out or something, just that take more damage each time they swicth-in.

Set-up and mixed sweepers like Snorlax, Machamp, Vaporeon, Marowak and Nidoking will also enjoy Spikes support. Something like this imo.


That's all for now

 

[Lockeness]

Crystal I added in some of your edits, but I also have a few questions. Wouldn't it be in your best interest not to Explode after Starmie spins? If the goal is to have Spikes up wouldn't KOing yourself be far from ideal? Just a quick note on Nidoking, after looking through OU he seems to have really good synergy with Cloyster. If you still want me to remove him that's fine, but I liked the fact that he was immune or resisted 3 out of Cloyster's 4 weaknesses. Plus, he can phaze. Also, Exeggutor is still in OU so I guess there is a chance there could be some grass-type moves running around. If its really an issue I can remove or change the wording if you want, but I just wanted to check first. Thanks for all your help!

 

[Jorgen]

Zapdos and Nidoking aren't particularly good defensive partners for Nidoking. Nobody is really firing off Grass or Fighting moves like crazy when Cloy is out (save for the things that get STAB on them, who you outspeed and explode on), and the only thing using Rock moves against it is Tyranitar, who Cloyster can beat on its own anyway. Plus, nobody Phazes with Nidoking.

Offensively, though, Zapdos is an excellent partner. Nidoking, too. This is because Spikes makes it much easier for these two to get KOs on Snorlax.

Mentioning other exploders as Crystal said would be a good idea, as having more Exploders to draw out the opponent's walls after Cloyster takes away the opponent's preferred answer to certain exploding threats can allow something like Zapdos or Vaporeon a much easier sweep in the late game.

Speaking of Exploding as Starmie spins, that's fine on a faster-paced Explosion team that aims to end the game quickly by Exploding on all of the opponent's major walls. It's a risky strategy, but it's more reliable than you'd think, and the matches are usually quick enough where Spikes wouldn't have a meaningful impact anyway.

 

[Crystal_]

The point is, Cloyster pretty much never keeps spikes vs Starmie. For this reason, if the oppoennt wants to be always spikeless, it's switching Starmie into Cloy every time, which allows you to bait explode Cloy into Starm to open up sweepers/exploders (either spiking in the switchin and explode as he spins or exploding in the switchin). Of course, the ideal matchup for Cloy would be Starmieless teams where you can count on Cloy for both keeping spikes and ideally exploding into something worth exploding into (electric, cune, lax). However, offensive cloy is genreally used in offensive teams where spikes aren't that important as battles are quick, and they are often just a "bonus" compared to Cloy's ability to baitexplode. If you are looking for a slower paced spikes reliant team, then Forr is your mon.

As for Nidoking it's ok its a good teammate but doesn't deserve 3 lines in the first paragraph, it's not like Skarm+Miltank or something. Just slash Nidoking in as an example where you mention mixed/setup sweepers.

Also, I'd mention that Surf is also good because it hits Forr for neutral damage unlike Ice Beam, and hits Cloy for 1/2 damage rather than Ice beam's 1/4. In the defensive set Toxic, is good against spinblocking Misdreavus too. And maybe you can say that despite its unreliability, Rest can allow Cloyster to 100% wall Steelix if there are no spikes in your side of the field.

 

[Jorgen]

Crystal, I think you're overstating how Forry is better than Cloy at keeping Spikes. He is, but it's not that much better. Just run Cloy with Spin Block and he'll keep Spikes fine. Or, if you Toxic Starmie, it'll eventually get too low on health to spin away Spikes as it repeatedly switches in, Rapid Spins, then is forced to switch out as you bring in your Sleep-Talking Electric.

Cloy also offers better synergy for most teams. Cloy's water typing and Special Attacking ability lets it check Ground-type threats when you need it to, but Forr's typing is only any good defensively if you run Curse + Rest on it, which means you're dropping Spin. Plus, Forr's attack isn't scaring anything not named Exeggutor. I usually find myself running Cloy over Forry on slower Spikes-based teams simply because without it, I really only have Skarm as an answer to Marowak.

 

[Crystal_]

I know, I wanted to mean that Toxicing Starmie is imo too slow as a strategy for fast-paced teams and exploding into Starm right away is genreally more rewarding.

Of course, Cloy can keep spikes, there are a lot of things that need to be taken into account (for example pursuit ttar too). However, Forr is more reliable for keeping Spikes for me in general. I personally use defensive Cloy in most stall teams too (steelix/general ground coverage, better spin, more chances to spike vs offensive teams), but I generally stick to forr if my team pretty much relies on Spikes to win (if I don't run drumlax for example), although I know forr isn't doing anything else with the standard set.

And if we are into that, Cloy is a better spinner than Forr imo since it can Surf Gengar and Missy (both can Toxic Missy). That's probably worth mentioning too.

EDIT: I'd get rid of things like Raikou will "KO" Cloyster/Starm and Missy can "easily trap for the kill" Cloy and forr. Just becasue Raikou CAN ko opposing cloy, this doesn't mean it WILL ko, so this is not what exactly makes kou a good partner for cloy (it's true, Raikou doesn't let these spinners spin, unlike Steelix/Rhydon, but that's a different thing). And Cloy/forr will be looking to wear down missy in swicthes through Toxic and/or Surf, switching to a phazer to block perish trap.

 

[Lockeness]

I added in most of the suggestions that were offered here. I'm just wondering, but should I add anything about pursuit users like Ttar or even houndoom? They probably aren't great switch-ins, but they could come in on Cloyster while it Spikes and then threaten with powerful Special moves that would force Cloyster to switch. Its risky, but it could be worth a mention. I need some more feedback to see if that would even be viable.

More suggestions and approval checks are welcome!

 

[M Dragon]

You could also mention pursuiters like Tyranitar as good a good partner of defensive cloyster, since it can remove ghosts, making spinning easier.

While Cloyster does not have the same bulk as its main Spiking competition- Forretress, it does have the ability to go on the offensive and to check certain threats such as Ground-types. Cloyster's better offensive synergy and STAB are the primary reasons for using it over Forretress as a Spiker.

It also has a much more dangerous explosion, because cloyster will usually attract things like starmie, snorlax, electrics... Machamp for example will love starmie being removed.
It's also much faster (you should mention that, because being faster than things like egg or t-tar is an advantage).

Forretress has much higher HP, key resistances to Psychic and Normal attacks, immunity to Toxic, and only one weakness- Fire

It has more HPs, but it still cant take special hits, and it wont take physical hits better (cloyster defense is much higher).
Cloyster will still take normal attacks like nothing though, and forry always fears the possible fire blast or hp fire that can KO it, and the fact that its very slow doesnt help it.

Cloyster and Forry cannot take special hits well at all, they can take physical hits really well, cloy has more weakness and its better offensively (it also has a more dangerous explosion), but forry has more resistances, only one weakness, it can 2HKO the most common spinner and it can use spin + explosion at the same time.

 

[Lockeness]

I updated the analysis with some of M Dragon's comments and suggestions. I will continue looking over the analysis, but Approval checks would be appreciated!

 

[M Dragon]

With STAB Surf Cloyster can scare away many of the Rock and Steel types that try to wall Explosion. Cloyster's Explosion allows it to act as bait for Electric-types like Raikou and special walls like Blissey.

I would mention Snorlax better than Blissey

While Cloyster does not have the same bulk as its main Spiking competition- Forretress.

It has better physical bulk, and forry special bulk is still bad. Forry has more resistances and less weakness to some common types though (but you already mention that in the second paragraph)

Cloyster also has much better speed, which it can use to outrun and Explode on threats that Forretress cannot.

I would say that its faster, which is enough to outspeed some slow threats like egg and t-tar. (base 70 speed is decent speed at best though). Not sure if saying that it has a much better soeed is a good idea.

DespiCloyster's better offensive synergy, STAB, and more powerful Explosion are the primary reasons for using it over Forretress as a Spiker

dangerous > powerful.
Its more dangerous because it can hit steel and rock mons hard with surf, so chances of exploding on something useful are greater. Forry cant do anything to steel types like Skarmory.

Forretress has much higher HP

Thats irrelevant when cloyster has better overall physical bulk, and forry still cant take special hits well at all

 

[Lockeness]

Suggestions added in. [Approval Checks 0/2]

 

[Tamahome]

Mention that Cloyster checks Quagsire decently and I think it's ready to go.

Approved

 

[Lockeness]

Great stuff as always, and I put in a mention about Quagsire in one of the main sets. If that isn't enough I can always spruce it up a little more! [approval 1/2]. Lets get 'er done!