Community Create-A-Team: Forgotten Wonders (LC)

Which Pokemon should we base the CCAT around?

  • Life Orb Eevee

    Votes: 117 56.5%
  • Wynaut

    Votes: 90 43.5%

  • Total voters
    207
Status
Not open for further replies.

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
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Stop voting in the poll, it's over. Read the whole OP to find out where we are in the CC-A-T Process. Thanks!
__________________________________________________________________________________


Welcome to the Little Cup edition of Community Create-A-Team! This is where us Little Cup players work together to create a competitive team. The overall goal of this project is to get players involved in creating a Little Cup team, rather than just posting RMTs for people to use. Also, let's have fun while doing it.

Origin of thread derived from here, and the first attempt at C-A-T can be found here. I am using a slightly different process since Little Cup is very different from OU, but I kept it as similar as possible.

Please stay on topic. If we are discussing the the Pokemon we are basing the team around, please refrain from changing the topic.

This is going to be a competitive team.

Try to avoid "theorymon" as much as possible (there will be some, obviously, as the LC ladder isn't as active as the OU ladder).

Process:


Step 1 (Poll is going up around Oct 4th): We are going to start by picking which forgotten Pokemon (and set) we are going to be basing the team around. This does NOT mean the Pokemon has to be the late game sweeper, it means the team will be built around that Pokemon, whatever role it plays. This thread is for nominating Pokemon to be added to a poll (Pokemon that you think fit the description of a "forgotten" Pokemon). After a couple of days (probably around one-two days, until enough pokemon are in the poll (around 10)), I will select which Pokemon are going to be in the poll that will be posted after we decide on a list of Pokemon. This means you have to convince me, and others, that your Pokemon is worth being put in the vote.

Note: A "Forgotten Wonder" is something is less used then the average OU Pokemon / set, but is still powerful enough to be used in the standard metagame. So no Caterpies, Magikarp, Beldum, Etc. Thanks.

Note 2: You can suggest forgotten "sets", for example SubCroagunk is an option even though Priority Gunk is quite popular.

Step 2: We select what style of team we want to make. This will likely include something along the lines of Offense, Bulky Offense (closest form of stall..), Weather, Trick Room, and possibly more.

Step 3: We select Pokemon that work well around our Pokemon and fit the team style and test it.

Step 4: We finalize the team and write up a 5-star RMT!
________________________________________________________________

Step 1 Complete! Wynaut is the Forgotten Hero we will be basing our competitive team around!



Wobbuffet Jr. (suggested by MGX):

Wynaut @ Oran Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 76 HP / 212 Def / 212 SDef (a different spread with a point in Spe over HP is also viable)
Impish Nature
-Counter
-Mirror Coat
-Encore
-Safeguard / Destiny Bond

Wynaut is the ultimate teammate for set up Pokemon and for counting Scarfed Pokemon. With it's very respectable HP and defenses, Wynaut can take a hit and use Encore, allowing you to Counter physical attacks, Mirror Coat special attacks, Safeguard vs status attacks, and / or switch out to a Pokemon who is barely touched by the attack being used by your opponent. This gives set up Pokemon a free turn to set up whatever they want, meaning it could get very dangerous really fast. Wynaut has always been forgotten because of the fact that it doesn't have great defensive typing (e.g., is weak to U-turn), is slow, and will likely get KOed before it does something. However, when Wynaut is placed on the right team, with the right pokemon, it will likely help another one of your Pokemon end the game, or come close to it on a regular basis.
________________________________________________________________
STEP 2 COMPLETE!
Team Style: Standard Offense
_______________________________________________
STEP 3:

Topic: Team Parings (Sweepers (2-3) alongside Wynaut, followed by lead and Revenge killers).
 

reyscarface

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Abra is pretty much what you are describing here. Every time I mention him, its like "lolwtf abra sucks man", when it got really big potential, specially when played with lures.

Set Name: SubAbra
Abra @ Life Orb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 58 HP/200 Speed/252 SpA
Timid (+speed, -spa)
- Substitute
- Psychic

- HP Fighting
- Shadow Ball/Energy Ball


Very simple. EVs maximize sweeping capability with the last point used in HP because it fits. Life Orb Abra is very strong, now pair it with substitute to block last turn 1 on 1 Sucker Punches, and you got a fearsome sweeper that can win you a lot of games. When I use this, I like to use a lead gastly, because it attracts both bronzong and munchlax, things that give this set problems.

Psychic can OHKO most Gligars, while the last moves are for coverage. HP Fighting lets you hit things that resist Psychic, like Houndour. Shadow Ball hits ghosts hard, while Energy Ball puts the dent on water types.

One of the best sets I have used on Abra, yet very underrated :(
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Not forgotten by everyone, but Drifloon is very cool and this set seems to be rare. It does not get long sweeps as often as some 'floon sets, but almost always takes down one or two foes.

Drifloon @ Oran Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 4 Def / 196 SpA / 4 SpD / 196 Spe (gogo LC ev spreads!)
Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
-
Hypnosis
- Explosion
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball

Against a surprising number of Pokemon you can easily get a few tries at Hypnosis thanks to Drifloon's great 90 base HP, so even if you miss the first its not too bad. From there set up a sub, you should now be able to hit most foes with 2-3 Shadow Ball's before going down thanks to sub, unburden making you faster than everything, and Oran bringing you back to reasonable health. Or if they bring in something you want gone quickly simply blow up in their face.
Though, it would be so much better without the Oran Glitch that prevents Oran activating from Substitute damage..

It is walled badly by Munchlax or any normal unless you blow up, but you have enough time to sleep them and get a free switch, or Explode. Either way its benificial.

Nature has a few options, in fact a majority of competitively used natures are viable, but boosting Speed tends to help, and attack normally costs you the least.

Drifloon has a good set of immunities and makes a great lure for Munchlax, as well as often incapasitating 2-3 Pokemon per match (Sleep, repeted Shadow Balls, Explosion).
 
How about some Horsea action?

Horsea (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 196 Def/196 SAtk/76 SDef
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Surf
- Signal Beam / HP Electric / HP Grass
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance

Horsea takes the MVP award on my rain team, this thing is powerful. It doesn't need a single Speed EV, as in the rain, it'll hit 22 Speed, enough to outspeed Scarfers designed to hit 21 Speed. What's more, it naturally hits 19 HP, so there isn't any EV adjustments necessary if you want to use Hidden Power. There isn't much in LC that can stand up to its Surfs. The other moves are for coverage.

Horsea doesn't really need to be a special rain sweeper. We can also make it mixed, or a Dragon Dancer.
 
I would like to sugest quick feet teddiursa, I think he's a good choice becuase although not too common he packs a lot of power and good speed and can flourish with proper support.

teddiursa @ toxic orb
36hp/196atk/36def/36spdef/196speed
Jolly nature
-swords dance
-facade
-crunch
-earthquake/close combat/cross chop
 
Life Orb Eevee:

Eevee (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 236 Atk/36 Def/236 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Quick Attack
- Return / Double - Edge
- Bite
- Iron Tail / Hidden Power Grass
---

How could something with an Adaptability STAB Quick Attack be forgotten!? Eevee is often looked over because it isn't the 'fastest or strongest', people underestimate Adaptability. QA OHKOes almost everything faster than Eevee, making it an excellent late-game sweeper for when Eevee's very specific counters have been removed.
I've had a little play testing experience with Eevee and I agree that it makes for a fantastic late-game sweeper. So this is where my vote is going. Eevee is very under appreciated.
 
I'd like to nominate RP SubLiechi Aron.

Aron (M) @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 76 HP/236 Atk/196 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish
- Substitute

Some LC Pokemon are forgetting the viability of using SubBerry items, and I'd like to spice things up by using a RP SubLiechi set. With its recent addition of Head Smash into its movepool, I believe Aron can become a very threatening sweeper with it, not to mention Rock Polish to boost its rather pathetic Speed to.

It may be hard to achieve an Aron sweep, but that just adds more to the challenge, which really makes it more fun.
 
Something that I tried and found to be rather rare was Curse Bidoof Unfortunately I lost the EV spread, I'll update with it when I find it. IIRC it was max Attack, max HP, and the rest in something else, but if someone else has a better EV spread I'd be happy to see it.

Bidoof @ Oran Berry/Chople Berry?
Ability: Simple
EVs: (tba)
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Curse
- Quick Attack
- Pluck
- Aqua Tail

This Pokemon relies on Curse to quickly boost Bidoof's average Attack to nosebleed heights while simultaneously increasing its physical bulk. Quick Attack then combos well with Curse because it negates the speed drops and hits hard with +2 STAB priority. The other two attacks provide amazing coverage, and Pluck even has the added effect of stealing an opponent's Oran Berry and prolonging Bidoof's sweep.

It worked well for me but ultimately failed because I couldn't get a good team around it, so I hope this CCAT will try to give this Bidoof the support it deserves ^_^
 
For that Bidoof I'd consider putting 204HP/196 Sp. Def, and then a point in Atk or Def, With a neutral Nature this gives you 13 Sp. Def, which is enough to not be OHKO'd by LO Missy's HP Fighting at full health. 204HP/196SpDef/36 HP also gives you a better shot at taking an unboosted dynamic punch after a curse.
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
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Abra is pretty much what you are describing here. Every time I mention him, its like "lolwtf abra sucks man", when it got really big potential, specially when played with lures.

Set Name: SubAbra
Abra @ Life Orb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 58 HP/200 Speed/252 SpA
Timid (+speed, -spa)
- Substitute
- Psychic

- HP Fighting
- Shadow Ball/Energy Ball


Very simple. EVs maximize sweeping capability with the last point used in HP because it fits. Life Orb Abra is very strong, now pair it with substitute to block last turn 1 on 1 Sucker Punches, and you got a fearsome sweeper that can win you a lot of games. When I use this, I like to use a lead gastly, because it attracts both bronzong and munchlax, things that give this set problems.

Psychic can OHKO most Gligars, while the last moves are for coverage. HP Fighting lets you hit things that resist Psychic, like Houndour. Shadow Ball hits ghosts hard, while Energy Ball puts the dent on water types.

One of the best sets I have used on Abra, yet very underrated :(
I've actually used SubAbra (and Gastly, I was trying a bunch of 'Sub(Insert Sucker Punch weak Pokemon' sets), and it's decent.

It certainly fits the bill as a forgotten threat, but my main issue is that there is no reason that it would be viable in this metagame now since it's popularity dropped. Missy is all that more popular now, so is Duskull and priority in general which OHKOes Abra, stopping it from even getting a Sub up.

However I haven't made up my mind yet, give me a slightly more detailed strategy outlining situations where this Abra works out and I'll gladly reconsider.

Not forgotten by everyone, but Drifloon is very cool and this set seems to be rare. It does not get long sweeps as often as some 'floon sets, but almost always takes down one or two foes.

Drifloon @ Oran Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 4 Def / 196 SpA / 4 SpD / 196 Spe (gogo LC ev spreads!)
Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
-
Hypnosis
- Explosion
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball

Against a surprising number of Pokemon you can easily get a few tries at Hypnosis thanks to Drifloon's great 90 base HP, so even if you miss the first its not too bad. From there set up a sub, you should now be able to hit most foes with 2-3 Shadow Ball's before going down thanks to sub, unburden making you faster than everything, and Oran bringing you back to reasonable health. Or if they bring in something you want gone quickly simply blow up in their face.
Though, it would be so much better without the Oran Glitch that prevents Oran activating from Substitute damage..

It is walled badly by Munchlax or any normal unless you blow up, but you have enough time to sleep them and get a free switch, or Explode. Either way its benificial.

Nature has a few options, in fact a majority of competitively used natures are viable, but boosting Speed tends to help, and attack normally costs you the least.

Drifloon has a good set of immunities and makes a great lure for Munchlax, as well as often incapasitating 2-3 Pokemon per match (Sleep, repeted Shadow Balls, Explosion).
Drifloon is currently in Missy's Shadow (albeit for a good reason), and it definitely is viable. This set is unique to only Drifloon, and I really like how it's not a 'sweeper', but a 'Takes out 2-3 Pokemon Midgame' Pokemon. Imo Drifloon is perfect addition to the list.


How about some Horsea action?

Horsea (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 196 Def/196 SAtk/76 SDef
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Surf
- Signal Beam / HP Electric / HP Grass
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance

Horsea takes the MVP award on my rain team, this thing is powerful. It doesn't need a single Speed EV, as in the rain, it'll hit 22 Speed, enough to outspeed Scarfers designed to hit 21 Speed. What's more, it naturally hits 19 HP, so there isn't any EV adjustments necessary if you want to use Hidden Power. There isn't much in LC that can stand up to its Surfs. The other moves are for coverage.

Horsea doesn't really need to be a special rain sweeper. We can also make it mixed, or a Dragon Dancer.
I've actually lost (I know, I know) to your Rain Dance team, but it really wasn't because of Horsea. In the rain, I really find it to be good, but not 'really good'. Horsea is too hard to base a team around without making a Rain Dance team, which is not exactly a good idea for a C-A-T project (for the first round anyway).

So Forgotten Wonder...not really a wonder, but it's main turn off is the fact that you're forced into Rain Dance.

I would like to sugest quick feet teddiursa, I think he's a good choice becuase although not too common he packs a lot of power and good speed and can flourish with proper support.

teddiursa @ toxic orb
36hp/196atk/36def/36spdef/196speed
Jolly nature
-swords dance
-facade
-crunch
-earthquake/close combat/cross chop
I've used this to a lot of Success as well, but it's really tough to use in the hyper offensive metagame. However, what made me decide that Teddiursa deserves a spot is the fact that it can OHKO Missy with crunch:

17 Atk vs 12 Def & 22 HP (80 Base Power): 18 - 22 (81.82% - 100.00%) (around 60% chance to OHKO min/min (Timid or Naive) Missy with SR in play).

That alone gives it a chance for success. I'll add it to the list for now.



I'd like to nominate RP SubLiechi Aron.

Aron (M) @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 76 HP/236 Atk/196 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish
- Substitute

Some LC Pokemon are forgetting the viability of using SubBerry items, and I'd like to spice things up by using a RP SubLiechi set. With its recent addition of Head Smash into its movepool, I believe Aron can become a very threatening sweeper with it, not to mention Rock Polish to boost its rather pathetic Speed to.

It may be hard to achieve an Aron sweep, but that just adds more to the challenge, which really makes it more fun.
Good set, great explanation, but not 'forgotten' at all. Aron is seeing more use then it should already with its new publicity with Head Smash.

Something that I tried and found to be rather rare was Curse Bidoof Unfortunately I lost the EV spread, I'll update with it when I find it. IIRC it was max Attack, max HP, and the rest in something else, but if someone else has a better EV spread I'd be happy to see it.

Bidoof @ Oran Berry/Chople Berry?
Ability: Simple
EVs: (tba)
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Curse
- Quick Attack
- Pluck
- Aqua Tail

This Pokemon relies on Curse to quickly boost Bidoof's average Attack to nosebleed heights while simultaneously increasing its physical bulk. Quick Attack then combos well with Curse because it negates the speed drops and hits hard with +2 STAB priority. The other two attacks provide amazing coverage, and Pluck even has the added effect of stealing an opponent's Oran Berry and prolonging Bidoof's sweep.

It worked well for me but ultimately failed because I couldn't get a good team around it, so I hope this CCAT will try to give this Bidoof the support it deserves ^_^
Key turn off is right there (bolded). If it wasn't viable then, it likely won't be viable now. I personally have used this on a BP team, but it's just too easy to wall and set up on.

I'm not too well versed in LC, but I would like to see a team around that Eevee.
I've had a little play testing experience with Eevee and I agree that it makes for a fantastic late-game sweeper. So this is where my vote is going. Eevee is very under appreciated.
Save your votes for the poll thread! I will say that Eevee is definitely a good choice, I agree.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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For next time, I think choosing a theme or general team plan should happen before we pick any Pokemon.

And seconding the "Eevee is actually not that great" thought. Double STAB QA sounds good, but its not stunning. Its decent for picking of weak foes who don't resist normal, and a free switch for all the highly threatening ghosts. Eevee is.. kinda like the Electivire of LC. Looks "omg awesome" to start with, but in reality its only just about functional, with the odd sweep here and there. Just way to easy to revenge kill and switch into. Kinda feeling the same way about Teddiursa, but to a lesser extent as Teddy can be quite scary once your opponents priority is low.
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
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De nominating Eevee. I honestly dont see thia Adaptibility QA thing. 80 Power priority move off a mediocre attack. however, now Eevee can be said to be completely outclassed by Dratini in that respect, as it gets a much higherpowered priority move. Also, noone ever speaks of Croagunk and Houndour and Stunky in the same respects. Add to that Eevee's piss poor coverage, and you have a very overhyped yet sub par sweeper
Eevee has much better defenses then Dratini and a crazy powerful Double Edge / Return while dratini is forced to outrage. While Dratini is amazing, I don't think it directly outclasses Eevee. If more people agree than disagree with removing Eevee, then I'll gladly remove it.

Anyways, Id like to nominate

Set Name: Priority Lead
Glameow @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Limber
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe / 20 Def
Nature: Jolly (+stat, -stat)
- Fake-Out
- Sucker Punch
- U Turn
- Quick Attack / Hypnosis
---
Fuck Meowth and Buneary, Glameow is where its at. FO + SP/QA is incredibly useful lategame, cleaning up frail sweepers like no other. U-Turn and Hypnosis allow it to deal with its counters. If you give it a Life Orb and pair it up with a threatening sweeper which just misses out on OHKOes, Glameow can truly shine with its Triple Priority.
I'd say Glameow is outclassed by Meowth more than Eevee is outclassed by Dratini. They function differently.

Anyway, I don't really see how you can base a team off of this generic lead. It doesn't do anything in particular for you, plus Meowth is definitely too similar to this.

For next time, I think choosing a theme or general team plan should happen before we pick any Pokemon.
I disagree completely. Picking the Pokemon first allows us to not be 'forced' to pick any specific Pokemon. This especially applies to LC, since any team other than 'generic' offense / bulky Offense is forced to use Trick Room user X, Rain Dancer X, Sunny Day Abuser X, Walls X. That's why I'm really in favor of picking the Pokemon, then picking the type of team, rather then picking the type of teamed and being forced to use certain Pokemon. For a community anyway. Not to mention I'm trying to follow the OU C-A-T process-ish.

Vader is likely going to try it your way for the next round though.

And seconding the "Eevee is actually not that great" thought. Double STAB QA sounds good, but its not stunning. Its decent for picking of weak foes who don't resist normal, and a free switch for all the highly threatening ghosts. Eevee is.. kinda like the Electivire of LC. Looks "omg awesome" to start with, but in reality its only just about functional, with the odd sweep here and there. Just way to easy to revenge kill and switch into. Kinda feeling the same way about Teddiursa, but to a lesser extent as Teddy can be quite scary once your opponents priority is low.
Teddiursa isn't that easy to revenge kill either, but it's meant to sweep when scarfers and priority are gone. I see what you mean though.

-----------------------

Right now Eevee is getting as much a support for nominations as it is for an denomination, so I'll keep it on for now, but it could easily get removed if more people want to. I mean I'll obviously hold eric / mgx's opinion high, I just want better reasoning to remove it :)
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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I don't actually think Eevee should be removed from the poll (mostly thanks to the support of a shocking number of people), but I would strongly discourage people from voting for it. Its normal attacks are often extremely predictable, and its speed is low enough that every important Ghost get in and can set up or hit back hard. Eevee was one of my first analysis, I know well it looks cool, but its non STAB attacks are surprisingly weak. Bite is barely going to deter Missy from coming in, and not stop it from beating you. QA is admittedly nice for revenge killing certain threats, but not more than that.

Eevee is one of the hardest Pokemon to revenge kill. In fact, your average revenge killers like Croagunk and Scarf Dour are both OHKOed by QA, while Mankey is almost always OHKOed. Only Bronzor can really switch into Eevee safely also. So yea, I don't really see where this reasoning comes from, but if you really don't think Eevee should be on there you can explain further.
(all calcs assume max attack, boosing nature, adaptability, and LO boost)
min/min Croagunk: 66.67% - 85.71%
min/min Houndour: 66.67% - 85.71%
min/min Mankey: 70% - 90%
Even against 0/0 Abra it only has a 2.56% chance to OHKO. Abra has 25/15 defences. If Abra invests 76 Evs in Defence (it has the spare) Quick Attack will never 1KO. Not being to KO even the most frail of LC sweepers is really bad, and lets so many of them revenge kill you.

It falls short of KOing even particularly frail foes like these, and all of them are able to deal massive damage in return. Mankey forces you to use QA as it is almost always Scarfed and can 1KO, if you don't QA Croagunk it will do massive damage (though not KO) your Eevee. Houndour even outspeeds and carries its own Priority..

QA can pick of weakened foes, but it is simply not a sweeping tool and will not prevent full health foes from revenge killing you. Therefore it is easy to revenge kill.

Its actually hard to find a Pokemon in the top 20 that don't revenge kill Eevee.. Croagunk comes close, but it can always deal ~70% and avoid the 1KO. Houndour can only do ~80& with Sucker Punch, but its faster can survive QA and can use Fire Blast or Overheat for an easy 1KO. Mantyke and Porygon have problems, I guess. Which leaves about 17/20 Pokemon in the top 20 as compident revenge killers (and with LO damage, doing 80% or 90% is generally enough).

I disagree completely. Picking the Pokemon first allows us to not be 'forced' to pick any specific Pokemon. This especially applies to LC, since any team other than 'generic' offense / bulky Offense is forced to use Trick Room user X, Rain Dancer X, Sunny Day Abuser X, Walls X. That's why I'm really in favor of picking the Pokemon, then picking the type of team, rather then picking the type of teamed and being forced to use certain Pokemon. For a community anyway. Not to mention I'm trying to follow the OU C-A-T process-ish.
There are many other team plans, look at the immunity team, my sash abuse team or the team vader and I made with that focused on overwhelimg the opponent with strong special speed boosting Pokemon.

Even if we do pick a theme we are not exactly forced to pick any Pokemon, sure most rain teams have Mantyke, but its not needed exactly. There is plenty of varity within themes.

And the advantage is that we actually know the theme before picking Pokemon, we don't want to choose a scarfer ot Teddy and find that actually people want a TR themed team. Just helps general cohesion.

As for sticking to the process, its relatively new and can be bent to suit our needs so long as we are careful.

Also, can we suggest more than one? If no, the could someone do DS Magnemite please.
 

franky

aka pimpdaddyfranky, aka frankydelaghetto, aka F, aka ef
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It would be a good build though: potential partners, support, etc. Once the ghost-types are gone, it could work out.
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I don't actually think Eevee should be removed from the poll (mostly thanks to the support of a shocking number of people), but I would strongly discourage people from voting for it. Its normal attacks are often extremely predictable, and its speed is low enough that every important Ghost get in and can set up or hit back hard. Eevee was one of my first analysis, I know well it looks cool, but its non STAB attacks are surprisingly weak. Bite is barely going to deter Missy from coming in, and not stop it from beating you. QA is admittedly nice for revenge killing certain threats, but not more than that.
Completely understandable reasoning, though I do think you underestimate QA.

(all calcs assume max attack, boosing nature, adaptability, and LO boost)
min/min Croagunk: 66.67% - 85.71%
min/min Houndour: 66.67% - 85.71%
min/min Mankey: 70% - 90%
Even against 0/0 Abra it only has a 2.56% chance to OHKO. Abra has 25/15 defences. If Abra invests 76 Evs in Defence (it has the spare) Quick Attack will never 1KO. Not being to KO even the most frail of LC sweepers is really bad, and lets so many of them revenge kill you.

It falls short of KOing even particularly frail foes like these, and all of them are able to deal massive damage in return. Mankey forces you to use QA as it is almost always Scarfed and can 1KO, if you don't QA Croagunk it will do massive damage (though not KO) your Eevee. Houndour even outspeeds and carries its own Priority..
These Calcs are actually completely flawed (except for Mankey, which I screwed up by forgetting to take the -1 defense off from doing a previous calc). Anyway, you forgot the fact that Houndour (basically all of the time) AND Croagunk both use -defense natures most of the time.
Code:
| Croagunk   | Nature       | Lonely           |    36.1 |
| Croagunk   | Nature       | Mild             |    27.1 |
| Houndour   | Nature       | Lonely           |    53.3 |
| Houndour   | Nature       | Hasty            |    21.6 |
So the proper calcs are:

vs Houndour:

16 Atk vs 8 Def & 19 HP (40 Base Power): 16 - 20 (84.21% - 105.26%)

This OHKOes 67% of the time with Stealth Rock, nevermind the fact that it will probably have an attacks worth of Life Orb recoil already on it. And not to mention, most Houndour's don't even max Speed EVs:
Code:
| Houndour   | Speed EV     | Low (50-100)     |    51.5 |
| Houndour   | Speed EV     | Very High (200+) |    28.6 |
Not to mention only a select few use a + Speed nature to guarantee outspeeding Eevee.

This allows Eevee to actually OHKO Houndour with Return (16 Atk vs 8 Def & 19 HP (102 Base Power): 38 - 46 (200.00% - 242.11%) while Houndour is forced to use Sucker Punch to do any damage.

vs Croagunk:

16 Atk vs 9 Def & 19 HP (40 Base Power): 14 - 18 (73.68% - 94.74%)

This has a small chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock, but you need to consider the fact that Croagunk a) will almost always have used an LO attack throughout the battle, and b) it can't OHKO you, so it needs to use an LO attack anyway. QA OHKOes with just 1 LO recoil almost all of the time.

As for Abra, almost zero of them invest in Defense:
Code:
| Abra       | Defense EV   | None             |    93.1 |
Meaning that the proper calc for 76 HP Abra is:

16 Atk vs 8 Def & 20 HP (40 Base Power): 16 - 20 (80.00% - 100.00%)

Which is a 67% chance of OHKOing. The only time an abra should invest in defense is if it uses LO, which is basically adding the probably of LO recoil as well.


eric the espeon said:
QA can pick of weakened foes, but it is simply not a sweeping tool and will not prevent full health foes from revenge killing you. Therefore it is easy to revenge kill.
As I have shown, that's really not the case. In the late game scenario especially, when most of these Pokemon will have taken some LO and residual damage. That's why it's such an effective sweeping tool.
eric the espeon said:
Its actually hard to find a Pokemon in the top 20 that don't revenge kill Eevee.. Croagunk comes close, but it can always deal ~70% and avoid the 1KO. Houndour can only do ~80& with Sucker Punch, but its faster can survive QA and can use Fire Blast or Overheat for an easy 1KO. Mantyke and Porygon have problems, I guess. Which leaves about 17/20 Pokemon in the top 20 as compident revenge killers (and with LO damage, doing 80% or 90% is generally enough).
You are forgetting a huge amount of Pokemon, namely Munchlax, Diglett and everything slower than Eevee that doesn't resist Return or Double Edge.
eric the espeon said:
There are many other team plans, look at the immunity team, my sash abuse team or the team vader and I made with that focused on overwhelimg the opponent with strong special speed boosting Pokemon.
Very true, but I think it's way more fun and effective to pick a Pokemon to base a team around. Anyway, the main reason is that I wanted to use 'forgotten wonders' as a theme, and logically, picking the Pokemon first is the correct course of action for that.
Even if we do pick a theme we are not exactly forced to pick any Pokemon, sure most rain teams have Mantyke, but its not needed exactly. There is plenty of varity within themes.
Plenty is really an iffy word....I'd say every rain teams I've seen except for one use Mantyke (though not 100% of mantykes are on Rain teams (agilityke)).
eric the espeon said:
And the advantage is that we actually know the theme before picking Pokemon, we don't want to choose a scarfer ot Teddy and find that actually people want a TR themed team. Just helps general cohesion.
Well we are basing the theme around the Pokemon. So of course we won't use a TR team with Teddy or a Scarfer. That's why I wanted to pick the Pokemon first, because the Pokemon picks the team, the team doesn't pick the Pokemon (like it does for many types of teams).
eric the espeon said:
As for sticking to the process, its relatively new and can be bent to suit our needs so long as we are careful.
I did bend it (made it more CAP-ish). I still feel this is the propper way.

eric the espeon said:
Also, can we suggest more than one? If no, the could someone do DS Magnemite please.
Of course! Post some reasoning for it (sounds quite interesting).
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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You are right that I did not take the - Def natures into account, but even then its not a clean 1KO so these Pokemon can deal massive damage in return. Eevee needs to run a + speed nature to tie neutral max Houndour.

And yes, the 76 def abra was simply an example to prove that against even the most frail of Pokemon Eevee has serious trouble getting a 1KO. And I'm not sure how you get 67% chance of a 1KO on any non - Def nature Abra... What calc are you using?

You are forgetting a huge amount of Pokemon, namely Munchlax, Diglett and everything slower than Eevee that doesn't resist Return or Double Edge.
Diglett will often run Focus Sash, is not 1KOed by QA and can happily hit you with EQ followed by Sucker Punch. Munchlax with max HP and 36 Def will never be 1KOed by Return (though Double Edge has a 66% chance to 1KO, but will do huge damage to you)

As I have shown, that's really not the case. In the late game scenario especially, when most of these Pokemon will have taken some LO and residual damage. That's why it's such an effective sweeping tool.
With SR down and againt a weakened team without normal resists, ghosts, fast priority, scarfers at high health, or moderately bulky fast Pokemon, it could pull of some sort of a sweep. Without all of that, its going to find sweeping very hard.

Very true, but I think it's way more fun and effective to pick a Pokemon to base a team around. Anyway, the main reason is that I wanted to use 'forgotten wonders' as a theme, and logically, picking the Pokemon first is the correct course of action for that.
That seems fair enough, but imo it would be best at least next time to let people decide on if they want a team based around 'forgotten wonders'.

Edit: Destiny Bond>Safeguard on Wynaut for taking down Munchlax or Bronzor when you can't survive a hit.
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
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Yeah, so Glameow is not a good choice to base a team around.

But here's what I'd like to suggest now

Anti Scarf Wynaut
Wynaut @ Oran Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 76 HP / 212 Def / 212 SDef
Impish Nature
-Counter
-Mirror Coat
-Encore
-Safeguard

Tell me if any of these is illegal

Wynaut is so forgotten, partly because it is thought to be underwhelmng, and yes, it is. However, Wynaut does something that not many can claim to do: It practically checks every scarfer that doesnt carry a SE move, as well as being able to encore slower set ups allowing for your set up sweeper to set up.

A team based around Wynaut would require it to have pokemon thattruly shine when scarfers are gone, notably Elekid, who outspeeds everything else, as well as NP Missy that can take advantage of encoring set up mons.
Hmm, I really like using Wynaut and I forgot all about it since HGSS (though I put it in my Berry Juice team for obvious reasons). I really like this suggestion because of the new set up mons that are in HGSS, and using Wynaut likely before Berry Juice is on shoddy would be a huge plus.

However I don't just like Wynaut as an anti-scarf, I like using it as support for set-up Pokemon. I think that's its real niche.

Adding it.
Sub Cacnea

Cacnea @ Lefties / Bright Powder / Oran / Muscle Band
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 116 HP / 236 Atk / 156 Spe
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Sucker Punch
-Seed Bomb

Best used with SS support. Basically come in on some resisted scarfed attack like a HP Grass or HP Electric or something, set up the sub, and start attacking. Use Focus Punch to smack down anything, Sucker Punch for things that barely survive. Seed Bomb is for STAB, for when you're not sure if Missy is coming in on the switch. Cacnea's beastly 19 Atk will dent anything that doesnt resist it.

Other sets that could be used are Dbond / Focus Punch / Sucker Punch / Seed Bomb @ Sash. This plays big mindgames, where you DBond as something gets you to yuor sash. Then if they hit you nextturn, they die. If they dont hit you, they get hit by a powerful 150 Power Move off a 19 Atk stat.
Outclassed by other SubPunchers IMO, most notably Croagunk who's already up there. Croagunk gets STAB and much better resistances and immunities to set up a Substitute.
You are right that I did not take the - Def natures into account, but even then its not a clean 1KO so these Pokemon can deal massive damage in return. Eevee needs to run a + speed nature to tie neutral max Houndour.

Right, but most Houndour are not max Speed variants, meaning Eevee can outpace them even with an Adamant nature (15 vs 14). I'd like to say that the OHKOes are close enough to clean when considering Eevee's sweeping conditions: Late late game.
eric the espeon said:
And yes, the 76 def abra was simply an example to prove that against even the most frail of Pokemon Eevee has serious trouble getting a 1KO. And I'm not sure how you get 67% chance of a 1KO on any non - Def nature Abra... What calc are you using?
Libelldra.
eric the espeon said:
Diglett will often run Focus Sash, is not 1KOed by QA and can happily hit you with EQ followed by Sucker Punch. Munchlax with max HP and 36 Def will never be 1KOed by Return (though Double Edge has a 66% chance to 1KO, but will do huge damage to you)
Diglett is often a lead, and when it isn't it will get hit by Stealth Rock, completely nullifying the sash. And....your munchlax calc is wrong....it will be OHKOed by Return 41% of the time with Stealth Rock:

16 Atk vs 11 Def & 33 HP (102 Base Power): 26 - 32 (78.79% - 96.97%)

and 100% of the time with DE:

16 Atk vs 11 Def & 33 HP (120 Base Power): 32 - 38 (96.97% - 115.15%)
eric the espeon said:
With SR down and againt a weakened team without normal resists, ghosts, fast priority, scarfers at high health, or moderately bulky fast Pokemon, it could pull of some sort of a sweep. Without all of that, its going to find sweeping very hard.
That's likely the situation late game, and I don't really think priority gets much faster then Eevee, besides Diglett who Eevee shouldn't have a problem with. Scarfers at high health late game is also pretty unprobable, and 15 Speed outspeeds all of the common 11-14 Speed Pokemon.

So I'll add Wynaut to the List (with different set options, Safeguard is actually needed imo).
 

Seven Deadly Sins

~hallelujah~
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Posting to support Cacnea, but with the following set:

Cacnea (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 236 Atk/236 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Endure
- Focus Punch
- Destiny Bond
- Sucker Punch

This set is so, so good. You Endure on an attack that would KO you, then Destiny Bond. At worst, you get one kill. At best, you then Focus Punch. If the opponent stops the Focus Punch, they die. If not, they eat an 18 Attack Focus Punch. Sucker Punch hits opposing priority users, and can finish off opponents maimed by Focus Punch.
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
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As a last chance to advocate Cacnea, I think I made a mistake by adding the dbond set to the substitute one

The set goes like Same EV's as SubPuncher, But with Salac Berry
Endure
DBond
Focus Punch
Sucker Punch

Thanks SDS for the set correction

Use Endure as you get an attack that will KO you. Now, with your Salac berry, proceed to Destiny Bond. if your opponent has not killed Cacnea, go ahead and use Focus Punch. Sucker Punch things that survive it or for stuff with priority. Simple, effectiev, and guaranteed to take down a mon in nearly every match

So yeah, thats my last shot at getting Cacnea in.
Posting to support Cacnea, but with the following set:

Cacnea (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 236 Atk/236 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Endure
- Focus Punch
- Destiny Bond
- Sucker Punch

This set is so, so good. You Endure on an attack that would KO you, then Destiny Bond. At worst, you get one kill. At best, you then Focus Punch. If the opponent stops the Focus Punch, they die. If not, they eat an 18 Attack Focus Punch. Sucker Punch hits opposing priority users, and can finish off opponents maimed by Focus Punch.
I really really dislike this set. It only works against people who have zero clue how the set works, and against experienced battlers it flat out won't work. This set is especially hindered by the fact that NP Missy, SubGastly, and Sub in general are everywhere. I'll probably add it as it seems to be getting some support, but I would really really really discourage anyone from voting for it. I also don't like how you say "guaranteed to get a KO every match", when it rarely does...ever. For example against the top 5 Pokemon:

Missy: Obviously Missy completely wrecks cacnea, Substituting and setting up whatever the hell it wants while you can't even touch it.

Gligar: Swords Dance: Sets up Swords Dance, and will OHKO you regardless of your moveset while you can't do shit to it. QA will outpace your Destiny Bond, and Sucker Punch will do shit-all.
Rock Polish: It owns Cacnea, stalling destiny bond and Sucker Punch with roost while setting up Rock Polish.
All-in-One: Has a tougher time, but it still comes down to predictions: you need to predict Roost and Focus Punch it, or predict EQ and Dbond or Sucker Punch. Not reliable at all.

Houndour:
Scarf is going to wreck you regardless, while mixed is going to also likely wreck you unless you get lucky with Sucker Punches over and over again while Dour keeps spamming them as well....

Croagunk: Resists sucker punch and Focus Punch. Has its own priority. Cacnea has nothing on it.

Machop: Machop wins most of the time due to confusion, as you need to bypass confusion AND win the speed tie to even Destiny Bond KO Machop.

There is the top 5, but this is getting a little tedious and redundant so I'll stop here.

So before I add it, can you guys explain how you base a team around a Pokemon that functions like this without just saying 'its guaranteed to KO one Pokemon per match, so its good'? Because not only is that false, it isn't a good aspect to base a team around.
 
I would like to suggest Taillow.

Taillow@Flame Orb/Toxic Orb
Guts - EVs tba
~Protect
~Facade
~Brave Bird
~Quick Attack/U-Turn

Taillow is an absolute monster. 19 speed and 15 attack doesn't sound like much, but once your orb activates (toxic orb with uturn, flame with qa) you hit 22 attack. This STILL might not sound like much. Now take into account that he has a great duel stab only resisted commonly by Aron and Bronzor.

By expirience, Facade can OHKO some Gliscor, and most everything else by extension. Brave bird hits the odd ghost. Quick Attack does a number on anything faster than you, and cancels most sucker punches. Uturn gives great scouting opportunities.

I'm on my itouch ATM, I'll add more later if needed.
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
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I'm going to be getting the poll up with the current Pokemon ASAP, and leave the poll open for a couple (TBA) days. Then it starts getting really exciting!
 
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