Community Create-A-Team: Heracross (OU)

[mtr]

Here's what we have so far...

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/216 Def/40 Spd
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Body Slam
- U-turn / Wish
---
Support Lead Jirachi first seen in Obi's "We are the Machampions". Takes advantage of expectations of Scarfed AntiLead. Can cripple incoming Scarftrans with Body Slam. Usually gets up Stealth Rock, or has a good chance at beating opposing leads with Body Slam, which bypasses Taunt.

Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP/160 Atk/98 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Dynamicpunch
- Payback
- Stone Edge / Ice Punch
---
SubMachamp is a lure for opposing Gengar and Rotom, who are Heracross counters looking to take advantage of Dynamicpunch. He can also take advantage of the holes Heracross can put in a stall team.

Heracross (M) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Night Slash / Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Facade
---
The whole point of this exercise.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP/228 Def/32 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Roost
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Heat Wave
---
A good lure for Latias, and a great paralyzer. Also our Lucario and Metagross counter.


I'll add more descriptions later. We might have a Sleep Talk Machamp instead.

The last two are up to debate. I'm using Slowbro+Flygon, some others are using Porygon2+Latias. Magnezone is being worked in here too.

 

[kingbattlus]

for latias' set, have we considered running a rather unorthodox niche set for this team that could look something along the lines of:

Latias @ Choice Scarf
Timid - some EVs
Surf
Dragon Pulse/Recover
Thunder Wave
Trick

I could see this being potentially useful. And takes care of Infernape who was mentioned at one point earlier, as well as being a decent check to Heatran that aren't spamming Dragon Pulse. Plus, tricking items is fun.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone thinks this might have some merit to test.

 

[familyguyman]

for latias' set, have we considered running a rather unorthodox niche set for this team that could look something along the lines of:

Latias @ Choice Scarf
Timid - some EVs
Surf
Dragon Pulse/Recover
Thunder Wave
Trick

I could see this being potentially useful. And takes care of Infernape who was mentioned at one point earlier, as well as being a decent check to Heatran that aren't spamming Dragon Pulse. Plus, tricking items is fun.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone thinks this might have some merit to test.

Well, if you have a Scarf, I don't think a Mono-Attack is worth using which makes Recover less viable. Remember, you can't always assume you'll lose your Scarf as the opportunity to Trick might not arise. It also isn't worth using T-Wave for similar reasons.

ScarfLatias works well with Surf + Tbolt + Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor so it can revenge kill DDmence, ScarfGon, Gyarados, ScarfTran, etc. I don't even think Trick is needed as Special Walls will be squished by Machamp + Heracross. In fact, if we are running with Paralysis support, SpecLatias might be even better, though you do lose the ability to revenge kill, a SpecsMeteor is just painful for any switch in.

Latias does definitely provide a great deal of versatility to the team, we could use her for more support or some clean, powerful offense. Special walling isn't even out of the question.

She should make the team for sure.


What do you think of SubGengar? It makes a great lure for Scizor and can HP Fire to crush him. Backed up by Focus Punch, or even just special moves, as the two other Fighting types we have can crush the special walls, and he's a diverse and powerful threat. Add in his ability to switch in with ease, and unique immunities and he could really help our team by rounding out the defensive coverage.

 

[mtr]

SubGar can work well here, and is worth a try. He should probably go over Porygon2/Slowbro, given that we use a scarf Latias for revenging.

 

[THE ENEMY]

i just noticed that we havent added a priority user. could we possibly add a NP ape with vacuum wave? or maybe something else, but i always consider it important to have some kind of priority on every team.

 

[Justinawe]

You don't really need priority on a team like this. Everything will be either paralyzed or slower then Hera already, so it's not necessary.

 

[chenman333]

IMO Magnezone is a necessity; you want that Scizor dead. I'd say Latias+Magnezone would be a decent combination, one of them luring the BPer in, the other killing it. Magnezone does a decent job in spreading paralysis as well with Thunderwave.

 

[EagleX]

really depends on what you want heracross to do
deal heavy damage-flame orb+swords dance
clean up at end of game-swarm
absorb status-sleep talk

 

[mtr]

IMO Magnezone is a necessity; you want that Scizor dead. I'd say Latias+Magnezone would be a decent combination, one of them luring the BPer in, the other killing it. Magnezone does a decent job in spreading paralysis as well with Thunderwave.

Well, chenman, Magnezone is pretty useful on this team, not only for its Magnet Pull, but also for its unique typing. However, Scizor is very squirrely with its U-turn, and very difficult to track down overall. The other Steels, such as Jirachi, Metagross, and Lucario, are handled fairly well by the team already. When I tested Magnezone, it helped me out, but it didn't fulfill its role of Scizor-killing very often.

Latias doesn't really lure a Bullet Punch, it lures a U-turn/Pursuit. While Pursuit can help us, U-turn doesn't.

 

[THE ENEMY]

scizor is already handled by zapdos. so we need to move forward. and what i was saying was that you cant just assume lots of pokes will get, and stay paralyzed. it is ALWAYS good to have a priority user on a team. my suggestion was a NP ape with Vwave. any other suggestions?

 

[familyguyman]

scizor is already handled by zapdos. so we need to move forward. and what i was saying was that you cant just assume lots of pokes will get, and stay paralyzed. it is ALWAYS good to have a priority user on a team. my suggestion was a NP ape with Vwave. any other suggestions?

If we are going with ChampCross, Infernape is very redundant. But, I'll give you a break, why do you suggest NpApe over, say, Mamoswine?

I don't see what purpose this would serve other than to out speed things (which won't be an issue with paralysis AND ScarfLatias) our out speed priority users (aka Scizor).

Not every team needs random priority, just because.


If we want a Ghost Killer, Scizor BP Lure (for Magnezone) and Priority User. Weavile fits the bill.

 

[chenman333]

scizor is already handled by zapdos. so we need to move forward. and what i was saying was that you cant just assume lots of pokes will get, and stay paralyzed. it is ALWAYS good to have a priority user on a team. my suggestion was a NP ape with Vwave. any other suggestions?

What Scizor stays in on Zapdos? That is right, none. Our goal isn't just to stop Scizor (which Zapdos does do); it is killing the damn thing. There is nothing on this team that can lure and kill a Scizor. There really isnt even anything to kill the thing with.

If you can't kill off Scizor, by either trapping it or luring it, this team is screwed.

 

[mtr]

I'll test a Sub-HP Fire Gar. I don't really like Magnezone because since Scizor runs away a lot anyways, it's hard to track it down.

If we want a Ghost Killer, Scizor BP Lure (for Magnezone) and Priority User. Weavile fits the bill.

Weavile doesn't lure a Bullet Punch, it lures a U-turn. Scizor laughs at Weavile's attacks, and OHKO's Weavile with its choice of Bullet Punch, U-turn, or Superpower.

 

[familyguyman]

I'll test a Sub-HP Fire Gar. I don't really like Magnezone because since Scizor runs away a lot anyways, it's hard to track it down.



Weavile doesn't lure a Bullet Punch, it lures a U-turn. Scizor laughs at Weavile's attacks, and OHKO's Weavile with its choice of Bullet Punch, U-turn, or Superpower.

Hmm, yes, I suppose Scizor does have his pick of attacks. Perhaps slapping Protect on a LO Weavile could help? Ah, forget it, Weavile is probably a bad idea unless it's Nasty Plot + HP Fire (guaranteed OHKO with LO against CB Scizor) , forcing Scizor to BP but that's silly.

 

[THE ENEMY]

we dont HAVE to have a np ape, i was just suggesting the use of priority which i have found important on every team for many reasons. reasons like to help finish off major threats in a pinch and what not. like kingdra, sala, gyara, infernape, etc. the point is for extra insurance as well as good offense. whatever we choose as that priority user is of course up to the community. however it doesn't change the fact that we still need some priority that we don't have yet. or is that opinion the minority? who else thinks we need SOME priority?

 

[Justinawe]

we dont HAVE to have a np ape, i was just suggesting the use of priority which i have found important on every team for many reasons. reasons like to help finish off major threats in a pinch and what not. like kingdra, sala, gyara, infernape, etc. the point is for extra insurance as well as good offense. whatever we choose as that priority user is of course up to the community. however it doesn't change the fact that we still need some priority that we don't have yet. or is that opinion the minority? who else thinks we need SOME priority?

I would say you're in the minority on this one. Priority is never a bad idea for a team, in fact with the current metagame it's one of the best insurance moves you can have. BUT, with a team like this, that has all kinds of para support and possibly trapping, it's not needed. Unless you can find a way to fit a great priority user on the team that will benefit an SD Hera sweep, there's no reason to have one.

 

[crynts]

The currrent team seems like it has a huge weakness to Heatran, especially SpecsTran. I'm supporting a Latias or specially defensive Swampert. Which one has better synergy with the rest of the team?

 

[HSA]

The currrent team seems like it has a huge weakness to Heatran, especially SpecsTran. I'm supporting a Latias or specially defensive Swampert. Which one has better synergy with the rest of the team?

Between these 2 ,looking at the team so far, latias fills this role better.

Any ideas on set?

 

[Justinawe]

Between these 2 ,looking at the team so far, latias fills this role better.

Any ideas on set?

A bulky set with Reflect/CM/Dragon Pulse/Recover would be really interesting for the team. Not only does the team have another win condition, but you give support to the rest of the team (especially Hera) with Reflect.

 

[chenman333]

IMO Substitute and Protect Gengar fail at killing Scizor because it almost becomes rather obvious you have HP Fire when using those. LOGar and LOLatias provide enough pressure on Scizor to force him to use Bullet Punch, but don't necessarily make him run away.

You really need to just apply pressure to Scizor users if you are going to use Magnezone with something. Imagine as you switch your Scizor into a LOGar or Latias and get nailed by a Thunderbolt/Surf and are now in KO range for that same attack. Obviously the thought is "shit I could kill it now", but to do so, one would have to use bullet punch. You would probably think your opponent will stay in for the kill. Lot of things going on in your head. Bullet Punch becomes pretty instinctive.
Looking at it from the LO user, Scizor isn't going to risk the U Turn/Pursuit and switching out is a poor move since Scizor will see more than half his HP gone for basically nothing. Bullet Punch simply makes the most sense for the other guy. At the very worst, there will be a double switch, but you get a nice advantage since you get to keep your Latias/Gengar healthy while Scizor can't switch into either again. Not to mention, if you use LO Latias, Magnezone handles most of the bulky waters that would switch into a grass attack pretty well.

Now, Scizor switches into a Substitute or sees his BP get protected. The immediate thought is "shit, HP Fire" and he runs off. You don't hurt him beyond SR, although you might get a bit of momentum with your Substitute up. Protect is just worse since you dont get much momentum at all. They certainly aren't bad, but they trigger alarms in the mind of whoever uses Scizor.

 

[familyguyman]

IMO Substitute and Protect Gengar fail at killing Scizor because it almost becomes rather obvious you have HP Fire when using those. LOGar and LOLatias provide enough pressure on Scizor to force him to use Bullet Punch, but don't necessarily make him run away.

You really need to just apply pressure to Scizor users if you are going to use Magnezone with something. Imagine as you switch your Scizor into a LOGar or Latias and get nailed by a Thunderbolt/Surf and are now in KO range for that same attack. Obviously the thought is "shit I could kill it now", but to do so, one would have to use bullet punch. You would probably think your opponent will stay in for the kill. Lot of things going on in your head. Bullet Punch becomes pretty instinctive.
Looking at it from the LO user, Scizor isn't going to risk the U Turn/Pursuit and switching out is a poor move since Scizor will see more than half his HP gone for basically nothing. Bullet Punch simply makes the most sense for the other guy. At the very worst, there will be a double switch, but you get a nice advantage since you get to keep your Latias/Gengar healthy while Scizor can't switch into either again. Not to mention, if you use LO Latias, Magnezone handles most of the bulky waters that would switch into a grass attack pretty well.

Now, Scizor switches into a Substitute or sees his BP get protected. The immediate thought is "shit, HP Fire" and he runs off. You don't hurt him beyond SR, although you might get a bit of momentum with your Substitute up. Protect is just worse since you dont get much momentum at all. They certainly aren't bad, but they trigger alarms in the mind of whoever uses Scizor.

If Scizor sees a Sub on Gengar, and rocks are up, he loses 25% HP from the switch in and out and you have a Sub up to start making pain. Gengar does have use outside of this though.

If you really want to lure Scizor into BP and then bring in Magnezone, we're going to have have something a bit more obscure. Mamoswine can do it since he outspeeds otherwise and can smack Scizor with a big Earthquake to threaten him into a BP. He also adds priority for our priority loving friends. I personally like the CB set with LO instead.

 

[THE ENEMY]

Priority loving friend, not friends you mean. ha, considering im the only one, anyway. but, yes a mamoswine with Ice shard would make this priority lover happy. and as a previous poster said a bunch of posts ago, a mamoswine has a good typing synergy with this team.

 

[Nonary Game]

IMO Substitute and Protect Gengar fail at killing Scizor because it almost becomes rather obvious you have HP Fire when using those. LOGar and LOLatias provide enough pressure on Scizor to force him to use Bullet Punch, but don't necessarily make him run away.

You really need to just apply pressure to Scizor users if you are going to use Magnezone with something. Imagine as you switch your Scizor into a LOGar or Latias and get nailed by a Thunderbolt/Surf and are now in KO range for that same attack. Obviously the thought is "shit I could kill it now", but to do so, one would have to use bullet punch. You would probably think your opponent will stay in for the kill. Lot of things going on in your head. Bullet Punch becomes pretty instinctive.
Looking at it from the LO user, Scizor isn't going to risk the U Turn/Pursuit and switching out is a poor move since Scizor will see more than half his HP gone for basically nothing. Bullet Punch simply makes the most sense for the other guy. At the very worst, there will be a double switch, but you get a nice advantage since you get to keep your Latias/Gengar healthy while Scizor can't switch into either again. Not to mention, if you use LO Latias, Magnezone handles most of the bulky waters that would switch into a grass attack pretty well.

Now, Scizor switches into a Substitute or sees his BP get protected. The immediate thought is "shit, HP Fire" and he runs off. You don't hurt him beyond SR, although you might get a bit of momentum with your Substitute up. Protect is just worse since you dont get much momentum at all. They certainly aren't bad, but they trigger alarms in the mind of whoever uses Scizor.

I'm thinking that you'd need to catch Scizor on the switch with HP Fire if Gengar was here. Play the Substitute set as normal to bait out Scizor, and you can go with HP Fire if the foe isn't smart enough to switch out of there, albeit Focus Blast would be smarter to hit the Heatran coming in.

 

[Stagnant]

Ok guys. Here is the deal. We've made some progress but we haven't made much. So, considering the last post I made as well as posts preceding that I will pull together a team. From that team we will begin our first real test of our Community Team. The team I feel won't be a instant "Five Star Team". I believe that after actually testing a team with Heracross will put the over-all community in perspective of what Heracross really does need in order to be effective in OU Metagame while also utilizing his "niche".

With out further ado the first CCaT...


Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/216 Def/40 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Body Slam
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock
---
Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP/160 Atk/98 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Payback
- Stone Edge
- Dynamicpunch
- Substitute
---
Heracross (M) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Facade
- Night Slash
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
---
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP/228 Def/32 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Heat Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
---

Now after looking through the rest of the posts I've came to a stand still. Currently, this team is terribly fire weak and I know from experience that Slowbro shouldn't be let to take a Special Attack, even resisted. I also feel that Kingdra shifts away from the teams balanced approach and limits is survivability, however Kingdra can weather change... I will look further into the posts for a more information.

You are welcome to add input as I am doing so.

 

[familyguyman]

Well, if we are fire weak, there's two solutions

Flash Fire or Dragons

Heatran or even Houndoom will absorb fire all day long (Houndoom also kills Ghosts)

Kingdra can change weather from Sandstorm and do some big damage. Latias can absorb fire like a champ and Recover.


That's 4 pokemon to choose from. I think we can do it.