Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

[tintinwong]

imo infernape is a good pick.
1. Its weakness does not stack with its team mates
2. It has a good coverage
3. Its a mixed attacker (not walled by too many things)
4. It is fast enough.

Its like a faster but weaker hydreigon.

 

[Homeslice]

Why mess around with accelgor, yanmega is superior is pretty much every way. If yanmega gets in on Slowbro for free, stuffs gonna die unless they try to switch around it.

Yanmega is not superior in every single way.
Yanmega has to wait a turn to get the outright speed Accelgor already has. Yangmega does not have access to spikes. Yanmega is stripped of 50% of it's health when switching in, so it can basically only U-Turn once unless you have something like Starmie that is an extremely good Rapid Spinner. Yanmega has more weaknesses in Electric, Fire, Flying, Ice, and a 4x weakness to rock. Accelgor is only weak to Fire, Flying and Rock, all only being a 2x weakness. There's always a difference between Pokemon used in OU, if you think Yanmega is a better Accelgor you aren't using Accelgor right.

 

[tintinwong]

If I were to compare accelgor to any other, I would do so with scolipede or aerodectyl, as both are usually focus sash hazard setters with high speeds. Aerodectyl, would be somewhat better in this role as it has stealth rocks rather than spikes.

 

[Homeslice]

It would seem that way, but the calcs suggest otherwise.
252Atk Aerodactyl (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 0HP/0Def Landorus (Neutral): 52% - 62% (169 - 199 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Focus Sash Aerodactyl (Neutral): 77% - 90% (234 - 274 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Aerodactyl (Neutral) Earthquake vs 200HP/0Def Jirachi (Neutral): 48% - 56% (188 - 222 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 20% chance to 2HKO.
80Atk Jirachi (Neutral) Iron Head vs 4HP/0Def Aerodactyl (Neutral): 88% - 103% (266 - 314 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 25% chance to OHKO.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

I can totally see team one picking a generic dragon dancer now to force 2 into a counter (and hence set up opportunity). I'm assuming Landorus-T isn't on the table for team 2 seeing as Landorus is already in play

For example Yache/salac/sub chomp sets up on rotom and Zapdos whilst terrakion can't exactly switch in without prediction! DD dragonite will have some fun seeing as there are no scarfers atm and forcing 2 into a mamoswine or scarfer could potentially mean spikes opportunities or lucario setting up respectively. mass reliance on volt switch could even result in team one taking advantage with the right substitute pokemon, heck even substitute ferrothorn can currently easily set up on rotom (lol, only semi serious).

 

[silenced]

Just want to give some final (albeit very late) persuasion to my gothitelle pick that, by trapping and eliminating slowbro, team 1 will have to pick all of the following in their next 2-3 picks.

-ANOTHER Terrakion counter
-A SR setter.
-Another water resist (since with slowbro trapped, they will have nothing that can switch safely into Rotom-W's STAB Hydropump)
-One of either a pursuit user to stop gothitelle from forcing them not to run anything that can be trapped and KO'd or ruined by toxic from gothitelle, or just faster pokemon that can KO gothitelle before it KO's/cripples them.

That is exceptionally restricitve for team 1 to deal with, and would be extremely hard to achieve with all their remaining picks, while also trying to counter team 2's remaining picks.

 

[Lavos]

infernape's the best pick right now, so i voted for it. ohkos landorus and jirachi, 2hkos slowbro, and provides some nice utility on the whole for team 2. plus it really forces team 1's hand in my opinion to pick something like latios or keldeo, which can in turn improve team 2's chances since such pokemon are relatively easily countered. makes sense to me.

 

[Scorpiopt]

Celebi does have a terrible coverage, bad bulk (you invested in special attack, but a random Steel type walls Grass / Psychic coverage all day, and to do so you crippled its defensive capabilities). You're basically left with U-Turning / Thunder Waving things all day since you can't do anything else, giving the opponent plenty of opportunities to switch in and take advantage of Celebi. Heck, it doesn't even have Recover, so it can't even pivot that well on the long run...
....
.

Celebi does learn recovery its not has bad has you make it up but . it is capable of some offensive presence , i used a choice specs variant it was dam effective
Since people usually expect a support variant of Celebi

if i remeber it was something like this:

Celebi
Nature:Timid
Item: Choice Specs
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Signal Beam /HP Fire
- Earth Power
- Psychic

Some Calcs agains the Tyranitar since its usualy the pursuit traper of choice :
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Celebi Leaf Storm vs 180 HP/0 SpDef Tyranitar: 148,45% - 174,87% (Guaranteed OHKO) ( no sandstorm and against choice band set )
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Celebi Leaf Storm vs 180 HP/0 SpDef Tyranitar: 98,7% - 116,58% (93,75% chance to OHKO) (sandstorm and against choice band set )
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Celebi Leaf Storm vs 252 HP/255 SpDef Tyranitar (+SpDef) : 68,32% - 80,94% (2 hits to KO) (Sandstorm up)

 

[deidarasenpai]

Celebi does learn recovery its not has bad has you make it up but . it is capable of some offensive presence , i used a choice specs variant it was dam effective
Since people expect a support variant of Celebi

The surprise factor doesn't hold any weight here though, seeing as the opposing team knows exactly what we're running. Team 1 can easily come up with something that walls Grass / Psychic coverage and can threaten Celebi. Also, the set itself has no recovery, so that fact that Celebi gets recovery options doesn't make a difference.

 

[vyomov]

Celebi still can T-Wave and cripple any mon switching in and can U-turn out quite effectively
Also, while steel types might wall it, we already have other mons to deal with Steel types: Namely Zapdos(Heat Wave) and Terrakion.

 

[tintinwong]

Celebi would be cool, except that Landorus pretty much forces it into a bad position with u-turn.

 

[vyomov]

We already have a decent counter for Landorus(Rotom-W) so no issues there :)

 

[tintinwong]

Except team 1 gets a switch initiative, which team 1 can send in an appropriate counter, leading to yet another switch, resulting in 2 pokes taking unnecessary hits. Sound good?

 

[Scorpiopt]

The surprise factor doesn't hold any weight here though, seeing as the opposing team knows exactly what we're running. Team 1 can easily come up with somethinge.

in a place were predicitions and mind games are great part of the metagame ignoring surprise factor is kinda sense-less to me
besides isnt that with any pokemon battle once you know the set you processed to counter if your predictions fail

 

[G-Von]

in a place were predicitions and mind games are great part of the metagame ignoring surprise factor is kinda sense-less to me
besides isnt that with any pokemon battle once you know the set you processed to counter if your predictions fail

There is no surprise factor in this project though. The difference between this project and regular battles is that each team knows every pokemons moveset, item, ability, and even EV's here and a single pokemons moveset may take an entire battle to figure out and at that point it might be too late.

 

[EspeonX]

We already have a decent counter for Landorus(Rotom-W) so no issues there :)

Not exactly.

252 SAtk LO Landorus-I Focus Blast vs 248 HP / 8SDef Rotom-W: 48.18% - 56.77%

Should Focus Blast land twice...it's more than likely to 2HKO, and it is guaranteed with the small matter of SR damage. Shaky at best to be honest, but iirc the chance of landing two Focus Blasts in a row is about 50%. Garchomp would be a decent choice for SR I guess, as it adds pressure to Team 1. See the calcs a page or two back for +2 Outrage...

You could still say that Rotom-W does check it, but it won't be happening all the time.

 

[ganj4lF]

Okay, I'm getting tired of those one-liners and posts without any real content that contribute nothing to the thread. Stop doing that, please, otherwise I will be forced to contact mods or take some kind of measure to stop this. Oh, and it would be nice to stop advertising sets too. You posted your set, call it X, great, you don't need to restate endlessly X's qualities; instead, you could compare X to the other picks, say what it has that is more attractive compared to the others, and why its problems aren't that relevant (more than half of the submissions don't even bother comparing themselves to anything else...). Doing otherwise is kinda pointless since it doesn't show why we should vote for your set instead of some other, so please don't do that.

 

[vyomov]

Out of interest, I really liked the Chandelure set as well. It has a lot of sweeping power and has good synergy with Rotom-W. Compared to Celebi, it has more offensive potential and can check a lot of the threats on team 1. Although Celebi may be better defensively, Chandelure definitely gives us more momentum.
Out of Interest, isn't voting over by now?

 

[MMII]

I was hoping to get more votes in but it looks like participation has dwindled. No need to drag it out, at least we have a clear winner.

• Celebi: 1
• Scizor: 1
• Chandelure: 1
• Infernape: 2
• Accelgor: 2
• Gothitelle: 2
• Garchomp: 5
• Total Votes: 14

As usual

Here it is, the newest member of Team 2

Garchomp @ Life Orb
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake

Next step is to discuss the fourth member of Team 1.

 

[futuresuperstar]

Alright, I think that this is a pivotal moment for Team 1. We have some excellent pivot play with Landorus' U-Turn and Slowbro's Regenerator, a decent mixed attacker in Jirachi, a sweeper in Landorus, decent defenses and synergy with our three mons. The things we need now are to overwhelm Team 2 with something that can check Garchomp and Rotom-W and give them something extremely difficult to counter. I think it is imperative that we choose our second Pokemon with Stealth Rock and/or Spikes in mind so that we can apply hazard pressure. But, for now, I want to get our revenge-killer out of the way. I want to apply some tremendous pressure on Team 2 to pick something extremely fast--something that our Thunder Wave paralysis can ruin--or something with tremendous steel defense so that we can take advantage of it with our last pick. That said, I don't want something with tremendous weakness to priority, and I don't want something that could get locked into a a very poor move that it can't sweep with.

This is why I propose Adamant Choice Scarf Mold Breaker Haxorus.

Haxorus @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SDef / 136 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Low Kick
- Aqua Tail

Low Kick is chosen over Superpower so that Haxorus doesn't end up as setup bait after a kill, and Aqua Tail over Dragon Claw so that we have something against a ground-type like Gliscor or Hippowdon and to hit Skarmory harder. In general, though, it's all about Outrage and Earthquake.

The given EVs allow Haxorus to fair more effectively against the special attackers of Team 2, Zapdos and Rotom, both of which it can switch into. It takes minimal damage from either Volt Switch, resists both of Rotom's STAB attacks, and survives Hidden Power Ice from Zapdos with plenty to spare should it need to. The speed EVs allow Haxorus to outspeed everything up to Jolteon, so that it can invest in a little bit of bulk. 112 HP EVs give 321 HP, while the remaining 8 EVs help out special defense ever so sightly.

Check it out:

Vs. Terrakion
252+ Atk Haxorus Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 344-406 (106.5 - 125.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Haxorus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 288-340 (89.16 - 105.26%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Haxorus Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 260-306 (80.49 - 94.73%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 258-304 (79.87 - 94.11%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Regardless of move, Terrakion cannot switch in against Haxorus, ever. And, even better, Close Combat is the only move that can OHKO Haxorus. Even its second strongest STAB, Stone Edge, fails to OHKO without Stealth Rock, and still can miss the KO with Stealth Rock in play.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 267-315 (83.17 - 98.13%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

In other words, Haxorus beats Terrakion and serves as yet another way to ensure that it does *not* single-handedly run over our team. Additionally, Quick Attack only does between 22.42 - 26.47%, and since Haxorus isn't taking any Life Orb recoil or doesn't care much about Stealth Rock, it probably won't do any saving for Team 2.

Vs. Rotom-W
252+ Atk Haxorus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 248-294 (81.84 - 97.02%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The only thing on Team 2 that can switch in against Earthquake is, obviously, Zapdos. Rotom-W isn't safe thanks to Mold Breaker. Meanwhile, Outrage...

252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 223-264 (73.59 - 87.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Rotom-W barely escapes the OHKO after Stealth Rock, so it can attempt to tank a hit. But, due to its moveset, it can't really do anything back to Haxorus...

252+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 112 HP / 8 SpD Haxorus: 123-144 (38.31 - 44.85%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In almost all cases, it can't really do any damage back to Haxorus. It can't paralyze it, burn it, and it has to hope for a narrow chance to 2HKO with Stealth Rock in play, while also relying on 80% accuracy. Volt Switch, while saving Rotom-W, does minimal damage (between 22.42 - 26.16%) and can't really switch to anything else to tank an Outrage. In other words, Haxorus can switch into Rotom-W all day if need be.

Vs. Zapdos
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 112 HP / 8 SpD Haxorus: 162-192 (50.46 - 59.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If need be, Haxorus can tank a Hidden Power Ice, but normally, it'll be switching into Volt Switch:

0 SpA Zapdos Volt Switch vs. 112 HP / 8 SpD Haxorus: 60-72 (18.69 - 22.42%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Or Heat Wave:

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 112 HP / 8 SpD Haxorus: 57-68 (17.75 - 21.18%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock

Meanwhile, Haxorus can destroy it on the offensive end:

252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 271-319 (70.57 - 83.07%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So, even in a situation where both are at full-health, Zapdos will never kill Haxorus with HP Ice before it dies to Outrage, nor can it attempt stall out Outrage with Roost.

Vs. Garchomp
Obviously, Haxorus cannot switch in against Outrage, but it can still survive an Earthquake if need be, and always outspeeds and OHKOs with Outrage. It also has no problem switching in on Swords Dance.

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 231-274 (71.96 - 85.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 492-582 (137.43 - 162.56%) -- guaranteed OHKO

At the end of the day, as Team 2 is currently constructed, Haxorus can switch in without any fear against Rotom-W, with little fear against Zapdos, and can come into play after a kill against all 4. It can threaten to sweep through even a slightly weakened Team 2. It forces them to choose a steel who DOESN'T rely on Levitate, while also deterring those weak to fighting. It serves as a great revenge killer and is not setup bait for anything thanks to Mold Breaker and Low Kick.

With our next pick, let's get those rocks down, for sure. But, man, Haxorus here is awesome.

 

[vyomov]

I'd like to make some criticism at this point of the process.
Regrettably, the recent round of voting wasn't very constructive. A lot of sets like Chandelure, Victini never actually underwent any discussion and the set that got voted itself wasn't completely discussed(not that I don't like the set, but I'd prefer more discussion in general on every set).
To fix this I'd like to suggest two measures. Firstly, after a certain number of sets have been sent in we should stop accepting sets and, before voting, undergo a rigorous discussion of every set at least once so that voters can see the pros and cons of every set.
Secondly, self-voting should be banned. This will only ensure that people, rather than promoting their own sets too hard(myself included, sorry guys), will contribute to the discussion.
Considering the current status, I'd say an Ice or a Steel(immune to ground) type should be selected and I will post a set in the future.
Just a question to the Haxorus-set user here, why have you put 8EVs into SpD?
Also, I'd prefer a LO on Haxorus because here coverage is more crucial and you do not want to get locked into a move.

 

[futuresuperstar]

I'd like to make some criticism at this point of the process.
Regrettably, the recent round of voting wasn't very constructive. A lot of sets like Chandelure, Victini never actually underwent any discussion and the set that got voted itself wasn't completely discussed(not that I don't like the set, but I'd prefer more discussion in general on every set).
To fix this I'd like to suggest two measures. Firstly, after a certain number of sets have been sent in we should stop accepting sets and, before voting, undergo a rigorous discussion of every set at least once so that voters can see the pros and cons of every set.
Secondly, self-voting should be banned. This will only ensure that people, rather than promoting their own sets too hard(myself included, sorry guys), will contribute to the discussion.
Considering the current status, I'd say an Ice or a Steel(immune to ground) type should be selected and I will post a set in the future.
Just a question to the Haxorus-set user here, why have you put 8EVs into SpD?
Also, I'd prefer a LO on Haxorus because here coverage is more crucial and you do not want to get locked into a move.

I have the 8 EVs in SDef because I only wanted to put Haxorus at an HP to switch into Stealth Rock multiple times. 321 achieves this just like 323 does, so I'd rather put the 8 into SDef to better take on Rotom-W and Zapdos, the two Team 2 'mons least threatening to Haxorus. And I picked Choice Scarf to give Team 1 an excellent revenge killer, and none of its moves are poor to be locked into thanks to Mold Breaker.

I agree with the point about discussing sets, though, I'm always up for more discussion.

 

[MMII]

@vyomov: Actually, the Garchomp set was suggested the round before by The Great Mighty Doom. (which explains some of the PMs) It was discussed a fair amount then and eventually decided that it wasn't the best choice at that point in the process because it failed to counter the opposing picks. Funnily enough, as the last round came in Ganj4lf suggested that we focus on picking a SR setter (which was mostly ignored which is why there wasn't much discussion on the picks that lacked SR.) and with the pick before hand now in the picture it turns out that Garchomp had excellent synergy with it while accomplishing the desired goal of setting up SR. Too be honest, though, just about every pick got some feedback of some sort.

Disabling self voting is unnecessary as it should cancel eachother out. Besides, Garchomp didn't receive any self votes (unless you want to count TGMD) so it wasn't even an issue this round anyways. (in a smaller voting pool or one where most of the voters are just voting their own sets it would be understandable but this has yet to occur so far)



Concerning Haxorus: Having a Choice Scarf mon is an interesting point of discussion so I might not even lodge my usual complaint of "it fails to counter the other team's picks". However, the main concern for me right now is that, although powerful, it is just reinforcing the viability of a SpDef Skarm pick for Team 2 which is something we want to avoid. That set already walls and sets up on almost the entire team (Lando is a bit shaky for it to switchin in on however Lando can't do anything trying to come in on it.) and provides Spikes so we'll definitely want to avoid encouraging it.

 

[futuresuperstar]

@vyomov: Actually, the Garchomp set was suggested the round before by The Great Mighty Doom. (which explains some of the PMs) It was discussed a fair amount then and eventually decided that it wasn't the best choice at that point in the process because it failed to counter the opposing picks. Funnily enough, as the last round came in Ganj4lf suggested that we focus on picking a SR setter (which was mostly ignored which is why there wasn't much discussion on the picks that lacked SR.) and with the pick before hand now in the picture it turns out that Garchomp had excellent synergy with it while accomplishing the desired goal of setting up SR. Too be honest, though, just about every pick got some feedback of some sort.

Disabling self voting is unnecessary as it should cancel eachother out. Besides, Garchomp didn't receive any self votes (unless you want to count TGMD) so it wasn't even an issue this round anyways. (in a smaller voting pool or one where most of the voters are just voting their own sets it would be understandable but this has yet to occur so far)



Concerning Haxorus: Having a Choice Scarf mon is an interesting point of discussion so I might not even lodge my usual complaint of "it fails to counter the other team's picks". However, the main concern for me right now is that, although powerful, it is just reinforcing the viability of a SpDef Skarm pick for Team 2 which is something we want to avoid. That set already walls and sets up on almost the entire team (Lando is a bit shaky for it to switchin in on however Lando can't do anything trying to come in on it.) and provides Spikes so we'll definitely want to avoid encouraging it.

As Team 1 has the last pick, we can counterpick a Skarmory pick pretty easily, though.

 

[TGMD]

As Team 1 has the last pick, we can counterpick a Skarmory pick pretty easily, though.

We really want to avoid the opposing team being able to counter 4/6ths of the team with a single pick. Whether we counter that Skarmory or not at the end, the team will be greatly restricted, not only that but the hazards Skarmory can set up are a death sentence. Hazards were what clutched the game in previous 2 CtPs.