Cross Evolution (now with Viability Rankings!)

[lightninging]

First thing rufflet has going for it is better STAB moves; not only is a flying a great offensive type, both double edge and BB cause considerably less recoil than headsmash. When you through in coverage with HJK, CB rufflet 2hkos a vast portion of the meta, with usually only bulky intimidate users being able to survive.
Quick demonstration of its power:
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Rufflet Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 469-553 (116 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 358-423 (88.6 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Scarf is very powerful revenge killer which can double as a pivot/wallbreaker depending on the matchup. Furthermore, rufflet actually has OK bulk for a wallbreaker (85/68/125), especially compared to Archen (70/63/120). For example: 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Sneasel Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rufflet: 230-270 (73.9 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO vs 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Sneasel Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Archen: 242-286 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO. While i'm not sure how viable it is, subbulk rufflet might be worth looking at as well. Regardless, rufflet is definitely more viable than squirtle x chansey and mega luc.

 

[TimeZone]

In my opinion, Scyther and Magmar should be S, while Gligar should be moved to S+. Gligar is far and away the best Pokémon in Cross Evolution. Stocke already explains in this post Gligar's traits. Gligar can run scary offensive sets such as Barbaracle Shell Smash + Acrobatics + White Herb, and Hariyama sets if you'd rather have it as a special wall with reduced Ice weakness and a new Fire resistance (notably allowing it to take a +0 and a +2 Overheat from Magmar, then OHKO back). Gyarados variants can go DD, physically defensive and specially defensive. It forces a lot of Pokémon, such as Sneasel, Rhydon, Magmar, Porygon2 to run Ice coverage for it. Physically defensive variants can even take Ice attacks, live to tell the tale, and reply with EQs coming from >400 Attack (uninvested!).
Gligar is not short on the movepool department. It gets U-turn, Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Roost, Taunt and Defog, and can take moves from Gyarados (Roar, Thunder Wave, Dragon Tail) or Hariyama (Whirlwind).
Gligar improves any team but straight HO, which still can run Barbaracle or DD sets.
TL;DR: Magmar and Scyther should be S, and Gligar should be S+ as it is far and away the best Pokémon in Cross Evolution with no competition (since it is almost invalidated by Gligar), great stats, versatility, and extreme splashability.

Rankings are in alphabetical order. xerneas is already in B+. Ideally we could order the mons in a certain rank by viability, but that's p much impossible.


What does Rufflet have over Archen? I get it, Reckless dual STABs, but neither Brave Bird nor Double-Edge match the power of Archen's Head Smash. If anything it should go to B- together with Archen, they p much do the same, if we rank it at all. Archen is also faster and has a much higher Attack stat (197 vs 168).

Primal Groudon has one problem in Cross Evolution: Gligar exists. Gligar is on any non-HO team for a reason, and it generally outdoes Primal Groudon defensively (and Gligar also gives it competition offensively with its Shell Smash Acro sets). Primal Groudon does not have recovery and has a much weaker Special Defense. When taking physical hits, Gligar's Intimidate also makes it bulkier. Primal Groudon is not a "There's absolutely no reason not to use" mon. Not in Cross Evolution. This title belongs to Gligar, and you need Primal Groudon's unique traits to even justify its use over Gligar in the first place (Water immunity, strong Fire STAB, spreading burns, pairing Gligar with it). And yes, Rhydon does give Primal Groudon competition offensively. Of course no one uses Rhydon defensively. But Rhydon x Gallade can run the same Double Dance sets Primal Groudon can run, and it is stronger and can hold an item. So again, before slapping a DD Primal Groudon on your team, you have to think if Rhydon is a better option or not.
Meanwhile, Primal Kyogre is (arguably) the best offensive Water-type in Cross Evolution. It's nº 1 counter, Primal Groudon, it's nowhere close to its Ubers popularity. Meanwhile, defensive Gligar sets (and offensive prior to set-up) are checked by Primal Kyogre which easily OHKOes them all with either Origin Pulse or Ice Beam. Primal Kyogre can also outspeed and beat special walls such as Ho-Oh (obviously), Scyther x Escavalier, Finneon, Pumpkaboo... few attacks match the power of rain-boosted Origin Pulse.

We need to rank this as well.

And you're telling me P-Don can't defeat or cripple the mons you just named? Smh. Ho-oh dies from Stone miss(not everyone is going to be running double dance FFS), or crippled by twave. Gligar can't even switch in safely, unless you really want to risk that burn. All Of scyther's defensive sets are forced out, finneon, AND pumpkaboo are literally forced out. "Rhydon does give it competition offensively" Are you kidding me? Gligar can't touch dniteDoubl, and rhydon can't touch Flygondoub, but guess who doesn't care what doublade uses? P-Don! where as I said before, pdon forces Doublade straight out getting a free turn to do whatever(I didn't say this specifically, but i did say pdon forces out tons of popular pkmns) And you're saying "Pdons' problem is gligar" smh gligar's best partner hands down(on any given team involving gligar, you do know can be used on ho rite?) IS PDON. Critset > gallade x rhydon when it comes to sheer power, gallade x rhydon also faces >DIFFICULTLY< defeating gligar are you serious? And it's walled or checked hard by >>>basic tanks<<<< or standard tanks like flygonDoub, mantyke(you could run stone miss, but now gligar walls your ass) pumpkaboo, Dusclops x Reun/gallads and anything at least resisting or immune to one of its stab. Holding an item(like Lo) doesnt mean shit, if it's still not killing basic shit like mantyke(where P-Don forces it out). i'm not seeing how you're able to use "gligar" as an argument to invalidate Pdon, when it invalidates a BUNCH of other creative/threaten mons if it isn't dead. Actually, >majority< of the top sweepers would rather run Something else in their last slot instead of always carrying ice coverage, which doesn't even KILL >majority< of the time. Yes, p-Don doesn't have recovery, so what? I bet if gligar didn't have recovery you'll still use it."isn't as popular as it was in ubers" once again, SO WHAT? It still does its job effectively, and does it the BEST(serously, you're telling me rhydon x gallade has a easier time setting up THAN pdon?). to support(sr, crippling, phasing), Or provide offensive pressure(Dd sets, rp sets) at least p-Don can potential burn gligar, crippling it for the entire game. Your only argument is and will always be "Gligar" because as I said, that is its literal only competition defensively AND Offensively. Idc, P-Don is still more viable(arguably) than majority of the pokemon in Tier -A

Edit; All the pokemon I named that pdon forces out, literally can only result to switchin or toxic and then switch, but the former is risky. And go head say "uturn is a thing to avoid being set up bait", cause whatever argument that might be, it can be used against gligar too.

Edit 2: every poke comes with flaws. If you're convinced that rhy IS better than pdon offensively(which it's not btw), why use rhy when gligar once again takes a huge crap on rhydon still. Smh what would be the purpose to use rhydon then? Munchlax? Cause pdon can take on munchlax too

Edit 3; Btw, I didn't say Pdon > Gligar, so therefore I am not justifying why it should be used over gligar. I'm saying P-Don is still fucking P-Don, beating pokemons gligar wishes he could beat, an ability gligar wishes he had, maybe even the typing to go along with it.

 

[dsm77773]

And you're telling me P-Don can't defeat or cripple the mons you just named? Smh. Ho-oh dies from Stone miss(not everyone is going to be running double dance FFS), or crippled by twave. Gligar can't even switch in safely, unless you really want to risk that burn. All Of scyther's defensive sets are forced out, finneon, AND pumpkaboo are literally forced out.

Primal Groudon beats all those mons, yes, so what? Both Primals do different things, don't compare them. Primal Groudon is a physical wallbreaker, Primal Kyogre is a special wallbreaker. Of course Primal Groudon can force out special walls, it's a physical attacker.

"Rhydon does give it competition offensively" Are you kidding me? Gligar can't touch dniteDoubl, and rhydon cant touch Flygondoub, but guess who doesn't care what doublade uses? P-Don, where as I said before, pdon forces DniteDoubl straight out getting a free turn to do whatever(I didn't say this specifically, but i did say pdon forces out tons of popular pkmns)

If Primal Groudon had no advantages over them, it would be unranked. Primal Groudon's ability to beat Doublade (in fact, Primal Groudon's access to Fire STAB moves) is a niche Primal Groudon has over Gligar and Rhydon. It doesn't make it outright better.

And you're saying "Pdons' problem is gligar" smh gligar's best partner hands down(on any given team involving gligar, you do know can be used on ho rite?) IS PDON.

What? Yes, Primal Groudon pairs nicely with Gligar, that doesn't make it "the best partner" for it. Aside from switching into Water attacks for Gligar, what is Primal Groudon doing for it? Yes, Gligar can take Ground attacks aimed at Primal Groudon. The same goes for, say, Magneton x Flygon, which forms a VoltTurn core with Gligar and offers Defog for your team (+ SR from Gligar you have hazard control covered).

Critset > gallade x rhydon when it comes to sheer power, gallade x rhydon also faces >DIFFICULTLY< defeating gligar are you serious?

Rhydon gets Ice Punch to 2HKO Gligar (it does have a hard time fitting it into a Double Dance set, but not to a Rock Polish / Swords Dance one). Also the Beedrill set is a wallbreaker. The Gallade set is a sweeper. Only time you use it as a wallbreaker is to open a Primal Groudon sweep on Groundspam teams.

And it's walled or checked hard by >>>basic tanks<<<< or standard tanks like flygonDoub, mantyke(you could run stone miss, but now gligar walls your ass) pumpkaboo, Dusclops x Reun/gallads and anything at least resisting or immune to one of its stab.

Dusclops x Gallade also beats Primal Groudon (Lava Plume does not 3HKO so it gets Rest-looped until you're fully set-up and then Drain Punch to beat Primal Groudon. Physical moves do less and less because of Bulk Up). Also why would you use Mantyke over Finneon or other bulky Water-types? Note that it isn't even ranked.

Holding an item(like Lo) doesnt mean shit, if it's still not killing basic shit like mantyke(where P-Don forces it out).

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 320-378 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 408-484 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

i'm not seeing how you're able to use "gligar" as an argument to invalidate Pdon, when it invalidates a BUNCH of other creative/threaten mons if it isn't dead.

So? Gligar is still fierce competition. Primal Groudon performs a similar role as the best mon in the meta. On most teams, Gligar > Primal Groudon. Gligar is bulkier, has a higher base Attack, recovery, Knock Off, U-turn, Taunt... Primal Groudon has none of these. Unless you need that slot to beat Doublade/other stuff Primal Groudon kills with Fire moves, or you're desperate for a Water-types answer, you're better giving the slot to Gligar.

Actually, >majority< of the top sweepers would rather run Something else in their last slot instead of always carrying ice coverage, which doesn't even KILL >majority< of the time.

And that's one of the reasons why Gligar is so good, as it forces many sweepers to carry Ice coverage not to be stopped cold by it.

Yes, p-Don doesn't have recovery, so what? I bet if gligar didn't have recovery you'll still use it.

Primal Groudon can be worn down during a match, as simple as that. Switching into hazards and random attacks will eventually weaken Primal Groudon to the point it cannot check whatever it was supposed to check, where Gligar can just Roost off that damage.

"isn't as popular as it was in ubers" once again, SO WHAT? It still does its job effectively, and does it the BEST(serously, you're telling me rhydon x gallade has a easier time setting up THAN pdon?).

First, don't take my points out of context. Primal Groudon's popularity does not affect Primal Groudon's viability, but it does affect the viability of the mons Primal Groudon checks (in that case Primal Kyogre). It's not the same if there's a Pokémon that fully invalidates you on every team that if it is only in 1 every (say) 10 battles, isn't it?
Second, yes, Primal Groudon is easier to set up than Rhydon. That doesn't mean Rhydon has trouble setting up either (it has more raw bulk than Primal Groudon, mind you: 100/160/90 vs 135/150/105.

at least p-Don can potential burn gligar, crippling it for the entire game.

Just saying, if Primal Groudon burns Gligar, it is crippled for the entire match, but burned Gligar still beats support Primal Groudon 1v1 because - guess what - it can Roost off the damage.

 

[292thu]

Onix-Gyarados should have a mention

 

[TimeZone]

Primal Groudon beats all those mons, yes, so what? Both Primals do different things, don't compare them. Primal Groudon is a physical wallbreaker, Primal Kyogre is a special wallbreaker. Of course Primal Groudon can force out special walls, it's a physical attacker.

If Primal Groudon had no advantages over them, it would be unranked. Primal Groudon's ability to beat Doublade (in fact, Primal Groudon's access to Fire STAB moves) is a niche Primal Groudon has over Gligar and Rhydon. It doesn't make it outright better.

What? Yes, Primal Groudon pairs nicely with Gligar, that doesn't make it "the best partner" for it. Aside from switching into Water attacks for Gligar, what is Primal Groudon doing for it? Yes, Gligar can take Ground attacks aimed at Primal Groudon. The same goes for, say, Magneton x Flygon, which forms a VoltTurn core with Gligar and offers Defog for your team (+ SR from Gligar you have hazard control covered).

Rhydon gets Ice Punch to 2HKO Gligar (it does have a hard time fitting it into a Double Dance set, but not to a Rock Polish / Swords Dance one). Also the Beedrill set is a wallbreaker. The Gallade set is a sweeper. Only time you use it as a wallbreaker is to open a Primal Groudon sweep on Groundspam teams.

Dusclops x Gallade also beats Primal Groudon (Lava Plume does not 3HKO so it gets Rest-looped until you're fully set-up and then Drain Punch to beat Primal Groudon. Physical moves do less and less because of Bulk Up). Also why would you use Mantyke over Finneon or other bulky Water-types? Note that it isn't even ranked.

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 320-378 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 408-484 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So? Gligar is still fierce competition. Primal Groudon performs a similar role as the best mon in the meta. On most teams, Gligar > Primal Groudon. Gligar is bulkier, has a higher base Attack, recovery, Knock Off, U-turn, Taunt... Primal Groudon has none of these. Unless you need that slot to beat Doublade/other stuff Primal Groudon kills with Fire moves, or you're desperate for a Water-types answer, you're better giving the slot to Gligar.

And that's one of the reasons why Gligar is so good, as it forces many sweepers to carry Ice coverage not to be stopped cold by it.

Primal Groudon can be worn down during a match, as simple as that. Switching into hazards and random attacks will eventually weaken Primal Groudon to the point it cannot check whatever it was supposed to check, where Gligar can just Roost off that damage.

First, don't take my points out of context. Primal Groudon's popularity does not affect Primal Groudon's viability, but it does affect the viability of the mons Primal Groudon checks (in that case Primal Kyogre). It's not the same if there's a Pokémon that fully invalidates you on every team that if it is only in 1 every (say) 10 battles, isn't it?
Second, yes, Primal Groudon is easier to set up than Rhydon. That doesn't mean Rhydon has trouble setting up either (it has more raw bulk than Primal Groudon, mind you: 100/160/90 vs 135/150/105.

Just saying, if Primal Groudon burns Gligar, it is crippled for the entire match, but burned Gligar still beats support Primal Groudon 1v1 because - guess what - it can Roost off the damage.

Okay, good point on the p-Orge vs P-Don thing, you're right about not comparing them, i just believe P-Don's positive traits(Abilities, movepool, typing and plethora of mons it forces ourt etc) makes it more higher rank worthy. But don't point out the pokemons that p-Don just simply forces out. Beating gligar was where you should of probably stopped.

Still missing the point. Once again >>>>I am not saying P-Don > Gligar <<<<<< I'm doing the arrows to emphasize that I AM NOT SAYING P-DON > Gligar. So please, you can miss me with that "out right better" bs. I'm pointing out its huge niche IS what Makes it a better, cleaner and easier sweeper (offensively) than > Rhydon. Rhydon x gallade finds a hard time as well fitting on teams, As you just said "generally gligar would be better for that slot" you can say the same to rhydon then. But why don't you? That's because you consider the pokemons that rhy can beat, that gli can't( like munchlax or milo x spritz prior to setting up) right? P-Don BEAT or scare those exact mons and more, seriously only rhy's critsets are comparable, and you act as if its crit sets are not capable of sweeping. KingdraRhy admittedly is weaker, but beedrill isn't, actually beedrill x Rhy beats tons more pokemons than gallade x rhy.


252+ Atk Life Orb Sniper Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 76+ Def Doublade on a critical hit: 185-218 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO without Lo it's a 3HKO lol better than nothing, but anyways. This proves rhy x gallade is just a "fun set to use with a better typing" rhyfon x bee on the other hand is more than a mere wallbreaker, it's two in one faster than gallade too (which btw speed is always important for a sweeper-wallbreaker). Btw Going full physical defensive on flygonDoub is by choice, not a standard thing to do the. So save it

252+ Atk Life Orb Sniper Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gligar on a critical hit: 433-511 (89.6 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO looky here, that's a FULL physically defensive gligar. 140/129. And you said this thing "is only used to open a sweep for pdon" gtfo, this thing can sweep a team by its damn self. I'll let you calc the sr damage ;)

Like I said in my posts earlier, that you seem to ignore. >>>>>ONLY ITS CRITS SETS ARE COMPARABLE<<<<<< but I think i know why you choose to ignore it. I haven't given you a convincing reason why "P-Don > Rhy" majority of the time. Rhydon is much MUCH more easier to handle, thanks to its very poke-able flaws as i said, rhy x gallade nd rhy x beedrill are harder to fit on teams due to typing(beedrill), or your argument "generally gligar is better"(Gallade) :p, it has less opportunities to set up(far less), and has other competition other than P-Don that you also seem to ignore, that you could pick from(scyther x bre is by far the best fighting type THAT IS AVAILABLE) gallade x Rhy also suffers a huge 4mss as you just pointed out(which makes double dance more favorable on Pdon), it's waaaaay too damn slow to pull off an sd set(gyara x Gligar outspeeds it too) and MUCH easier to handle smh. I rather use Rp, but even then it barely finds opportunities to find a turn to use "Rp" where P-Don can and will due to its huge positive traits over rhydon x gallade, and he'll do it with ease. you realize pdon survives longer than rhydon right? Rhydon may be "bulkier" but I guess you haven't realized that, rhydon HAS to invest much more in speed THAN p-Don does. Since 50% of evs are in its atk stat, that leaves like 15% left if evs to invest in hp. it needs enough speed to outspeed shit like espeon x abra, vivi cross evos, bre x scyther/Sneasel too etc, otherwise you're gonna still die or in scyther/sneasel's case, put to sleep. Nice calculation on Rhy vs P-Don in power, Doesn't really prove anything if you think about it, other than it's able to hold an item lmao, Doesn't make it any better either, as in "real battle" no opposing P-Don is staying in on either. Kinda invalid when we're considering what Rhydon can do/beat, that P-Don isn't doing/beating "Dusclops beats p-DON too" uh, phasing(has both Roar and Dtail)? Go ahead bulk up/rest or w.e, say hey to the next pkmn on your way out. I just literally showed you the glaring flaws in rhy x gallade that beedrill x Rhy doesnt really care about. So do you really want me to get started on Beedrill's flaws?

The point here is, P-Don has TOOOOOOOOONNS less flaws and more useful positive traits than anything rhydon can run. And it does it at >>>>Little cost<<<<. So please, leave rhydon out of this argument. As i said before, gligar will be your only valid argument. That is its ONLY >>>>LITERAL COMPETITION<<<< offensively and Defensively. I'll just look at rhydon as a "Optional ground type" I'll leave it at that. As my next comment might come off "personal" or "a complete asshole" lol

252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 320-378 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO I see why you added Lo smh lol

252+ Atk Sniper Rhydon Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon on a critical hit: 513-606 (126.9 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO without Lo. Since you like using calc against p-don :p

And I stand by P-Don being its best partner( I may have stretched it a bit on stall thou admittedly lol) but balance and HO there's (arguably) no reason not to use pdon along with it. Pdon beats what gli doesn't, and gligar beats what P-Don doesn't. While also having amazing synergy and lure each others checks and counters. That's what they do for each other.

Edit; Actually, Pdon becomes more viable because of gli. As few mons can touch Pdon-Gli core, nothing wrong with having two ground types, especially since they don't share the same weaknesses lmfaoo


Edit 2: sheesh, my bad, forgot to address the "worn down by status/hazard". could you at least try not to look at it from a "one tunnel" point of view? Pdon, like gligar, and like rhydon have other mons that uh, what am I trying to think of here........Oh rite, >>>HELP SUPPORT THE TEAM<<<<<. When you decide upon a pokemon for a slot, you >Consider it's drawback and positive traits<<<. Basically, hazard removal and clerics, as simple as that.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Primal Groudon is good because it role compresses dozens of roles in the metagames with virtually no opportunity cost. You can't directly compare it mons like Rhydon, Gligar ect. because although those two are both excellent they don't role compress like Primal Groudon does. Besides being physical ground types they're not very similar and shouldn't be judged that way.

Here is what Primal Groudon gives your team: Scald switch in, Knock off switch in, Trick/Switcheroo switch in, Voltturn counter, Weather counter, Electric counter, Will O Wisp switch in, Thunder Wave switch in, Stealth rock setter, Roar/Dragon tail support, Status support in Lava Plume, Thunder Wave and Toxic, Wallbreaker in Paradancer (T-wave + SD to beat thing like Lugia and Support Arceus), Sweeper in duel dance, half a dozen sets with dozens of variations to those sets.

Like, sure, Gligar and Rhydon are great with better stats for certain sets - but in time Primal Groudon will most likely rise to the top as a prominent threat in the metagame. I'm not that familiar with Cross-Evolution - but I'm sure Gligar has switch ins right? Quagsire bulky waters can surely handle most of its offensive sets while support doesn't have the best "spammable" move outside of Knock off - which isn't as useful with Eviolite banned.

Either way - I think it's to early to tell. We though Pdon as around B+ in Mix and Mega but it's been S for half a year now.

 

[lightninging]

hey pals!!! tournament should be going up november 7th!! its liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

 

[lightninging]

hey guys sorry to double post ik its illegal but the tourney just got moved up so its starting on the 4th!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hourai]

How do I join the tournament? If I just need to comment "in" to join, then in.

 

[lightninging]

How do I join the tournament? If I just need to comment "in" to join, then in.

there will be a thread in the tournament subsection of the form. patience yall.

 

[Ludicrousity]

Soo, a few questions:

• where will this be done?
• How will the stats be changed?
• How do I enter?
• Where do I enter?

 

[sin(pi)]

Soo, a few questions:

• where will this be done?
• How will the stats be changed?
• How do I enter?
• Where do I enter?

A thread will be posted here, but someone will post it ITT anyway. You can enter by posting "in" in that thread when it goes up. Games will be played on rom, which has the metagame coded.

 

[lightninging]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/first-ever-cross-evolution-tournament-signups-now-open.3586150/
im too lazy to actually link it but theres the thread 4 signups go crazy yall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
edit: dont just like my post ya munchkins go sign up!

 

[SamTheManWhoAllesCan]

i like this meta, why isn't it on the normal server?

 

[Ludicrousity]

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned Darumaka (Gyarados) yet. It's pretty much a better Darmanitan with Moxie

 

[Stocke]

base stats/typing of NFEs from the Sun and Moon datamine

Stage 1:
Rowlet: 68/55/55/50/50/42, Grass/Flying
Litten: 45/65/40/60/40/70, Fire
Popplio: 50/54/54/66/56/40, Water
Pikipek: 35/75/30/30/30/65, Normal/Flying
Yungoos: 48/70/30/30/30/45, Normal
Grubbin: 47/62/45/55/45/46, Bug
Crabrawler: 47/82/57/42/47/63, Fighting
Cutiefly: 40/45/40/55/40/84, Bug/Fairy
Rockruff: 45/65/40/30/40/60, Rock
Mareanie: 50/53/62/43/52/45, Poison/Water
Mudbray: 70/100/70/45/55/45, Ground
Dewpider: 38/40/52/40/72/27, Water/Bug
Fomantis: 40/55/35/50/35/35, Grass
Morelull: 40/35/55/65/75/15, Grass/Fairy
Salandit: 48/44/40/71/40/77, Poison/Fire
Stufful: 70/75/50/45/50/50, Normal/Fighting
Bounsweet: 42/30/38/30/38/32, Grass
Wimpod: 25/35/40/20/30/80, Bug/Water
Sandygast: 55/55/80/70/45/15, Ghost/Ground
Type: Null: 95/95/95/95/95/59, Normal
Jangmo-o: 45/55/65/45/45/45, Dragon
Cosmog: 43/29/31/29/31/37, Psychic
Alolan Rattata: 30/56/35/25/35/72, Normal/Dark
Alolan Sandshrew: 50/75/90/10/35/40, Ice/Steel
Alolan Vulpix: 38/41/40/50/65/65, Ice
Alolan Meowth: 40/35/35/50/40/90, Dark
Alolan Geodude: 40/80/100/30/30/20, Rock/Electric
Alolan Grimer: 80/80/50/40/50/25, Poison/Dark
Alolan Diglett: 10/55/30/35/45/90, Ground/Steel

Stage 2:
Dartrix: 78/75/75/70/70/52, Grass/Flying
Torracat: 65/85/50/80/50/90, Fire
Brionne: 60/69/69/91/81/50, Water
Trumbeak: 55/85/50/40/50/75, Normal/Flying
Charjabug: 57/82/95/55/75/36, Bug/Electric
Steenee: 52/40/48/40/48/62, Grass
Hakamo-o: 55/75/90/65/70/65, Dragon/Fighting
Cosmoem: 43/29/131/29/131/37, Psychic
Alolan Graveler: 55/95/115/45/45/35, Rock/Electric

stat gains + ability/type changes from the Sun and Moon datamine

Stage 2:
Dartrix: +10/+20/+20/+20/+20/+10, Overgrow/Long Reach (makes contact moves non-contact)
Torracat: +20/+20/+10/+20/+10/+20, Blaze/Intimidate
Brionne: +10/+15/+15/+25/+25/+10, Torrent/Liquid Voice (makes sound-based moves Water-type)
Trumbeak: +20/+10/+20/+10/+20/+10, Keen Eye/Skill Link/Pickup
Gumshoos: +40/+40/+30/+25/+30/+0, Stakeout/Strong Jaw/Adaptability
Charjabug: +10/+20/+50/+10/+30/-10, Battery, +secondary Electric typing
Crabominable: +50/+50/+20/+20/+20/-20, Hyper Cutter/Iron Fist/Anger Point, +secondary Ice typing
Ribombee: +20/+10/+20/+40/+30/+40, Honey Gather/Shield Dust/Sweet Veil
Lycanroc (Midday): +30/+50/+25/+25/+25/+52, Keen Eye/Sand Rush/Steadfast
Lycanroc (Midnight): +40/+50/+35/+25/+35/+22, Keen Eye/Vital Spirit/No Guard
Toxapex: +0/+10/+90/+10/+90/-10, Merciless (deals critical hits to poisoned targets)/Limber/Regenerator
Mudsdale: +30/+25/+30/+10/+30/-10, Own Tempo/Stamina/Inner Focus
Araquanid: +30/+30/+40/+10/+60/+15, Water Bubble (doubles the power of Water-type moves, decreases damage done by Fire-type moves, and prevents burns)/Water Absorb
Lurantis: +30/+50/+55/+30/+55/+10, Leaf Guard/Contrary
Shiinotic: +20/+10/+25/+25/+25/+15, Illuminate/Effect Spore/Rain Dish
Salazzle: +20/+20/+20/+40/+20/+40, Corrosion/Oblivious
Bewear: +50/+50/+30/+10/+10/+10, Fluffy/Klutz/Unnerve
Steenee: +10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+30, Leaf Guard/Oblivious/Sweet Veil
Golisopod: +50/+90/+100/+40/+60/-40, Emergency Exit (clone of Wimp Out)
Palossand: +30/+20/+30/+30/+30/+20, Water Compaction/Sand Veil
Silvally: +0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+36, RKS System
Hakamo-o: +10/+20/+25/+20/+25/+20, Bulletproof/Soundproof/Overcoat
Cosmoem: +0/+0/+100/+0/+100/+0, Sturdy
Alolan Raticate: +45/+15/+35/+15/+45/+5, Gluttony/Hustle/Thick Fat
Alolan Sandslash: +25/+25/+30/+15/+30/+25, Snow Cloak/Slush Rush (doubles Speed in hail)
Alolan Ninetales: +35/+26/+35/+31/+35/+44, Snow Cloak/Snow Warning, +secondary Fairy typing
Alolan Persian: +25/+25/+25/+25/+25/+25, Fur Coat/Technician/Rattled
Alolan Graveler: +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15, Magnet Pull/Sturdy/Galvanize (Electric-type -ate clone)
Alolan Muk: +25/+25/+25/+25/+50/+25, Poison Touch/Gluttony/Power of Alchemy (copies the ability of a defeated ally)
Alolan Exeggutor (assuming it evolves from normal Exeggcute): +35/+65/+5/+65/+30/+5, Frisk/Harvest, +secondary Dragon typing
Alolan Marowak (assuming it evolves from normal Cubone): +10/+40/+15/+10/+30/+10, Cursed Body/Lightning Rod/Rock Head, +primary Fire typing, +secondary Ghost typing
Alolan Dugtrio: +20/+45/+30/+15/+25/+20, Sand Veil/Tangling Hair (Gooey clone)/Sand Force

Stage 3:
Decidueye: +0/+32/+0/+30/+30/+18, Overgrow/Long Reach, +secondary Ghost typing
Incineroar: +30/+30/+40/+0/+40/-30, Blaze/Intimidate, +secondary Dark typing
Primarina: +20/+5/+5/+35/+35/+10, Torrent/Liquid Voice, +secondary Fairy typing
Toucannon: +25/+35/+25/+35/+25/-15, Keen Eye/Skill Link/Sheer Force
Vikavolt: +20/-12/-5/+90/+0/+7, Levitate
Tsareena: +20/+80/+50/+10/+50/+10, Leaf Guard/Queenly Majesty/Sweet Veil
Kommo-o: +20/+35/+35/+35/+35/+20, Bulletproof/Soundproof/Overcoat
Solgaleo (assuming it evolves from Cosmoem directly and isn't some other sort of transformation): +94/+108/-24/+84/-42/+60, Full Metal Body, +secondary Steel typing
Lunala (see Solgaleo): +94/+84/-42/+108/-24/+60, Shadow Shield, +secondary Ghost typing
Alolan Raichu (assuming it evolves from normal Pikachu): +25/+30/+10/+40/+35/+20, Surge Surfer, +secondary Psychic typing
Alolan Golem: +25/+25/+15/+10/+20/+10, Magnet Pull/Sturdy/Galvanize

if I got anything here incorrect or missed something, please let me know, either via this thread or on my profile

 

[Squawkerz]

OH NO TOXAPEX GLIGAR. THE META IS DONE

65/85/195/45/155/75 base stats with Regenerator, Scald, and Reliable Recovery!

 

[Stocke]

OH NO TOXAPEX GLIGAR. THE META IS DONE

65/85/195/45/155/75 base stats with Regenerator, Scald, and Reliable Recovery!

more datamine stuff

if anything I'd say the biggest threats from this data are Type: Null and cross-evolving into Solgaleo/Lunala. given that Type: Null has excellent stats in every area (excluding Speed, which can be patched up should you need it to) for the standards of a stage 1 Pokémon, I can see it being very versatile (probably not at the same level as Gligar in terms of versatility as it's a Normal-type by default and its initial movepool doesn't seem particularly promising, but still quite good in that regard) so it can fit on a lot of different teams; two sets that jump out to me immediately are with Arcanine (130/135/130/125/125/94) which is essentially a slower but more powerful and bulkier Extreme Killer Arceus (without Earthquake which is unfortunate, though it could run something like Thunder Wave, Morning Sun, or U-turn in its place), and Noivern (140/135/140/147/135/127) which is a direct upgrade over Porygon x Noivern in every way except for the lack of Ice Beam and Shadow Ball. meanwhile, the most relevant comparison for Solgaleo and Lunala that I can think of off the top of my head is Diancite in Mix and Mega, except you're still able to hold an item and you're not necessarily obligated to become a straight glass cannon since Solgaleo and Lunala both offer massive HP gains and typings with useful defensive properties, particularly Lunala since having a Ghost-type eases the matchup against priority somewhat. the first idea that jumps out at me when looking at their stats is Porygon2 x Lunala (181/164/48/213/71/120) which boasts not only an immense 213 Special Attack (with a decent offensive movepool; Moongeist Beam, Tri Attack, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Focus Blast are about all you'd want, though there are other options like Psyshock and Moonblast) but also a suitable Speed tier and a massive HP stat coupled with the excellent Normal/Ghost typing, Shadow Shield, reliable recovery in Recover (from Porygon2's movepool, Lunala doesn't get any recovery by itself as far as I could see), Will-o-Wisp to patch up the Defense stat, and Calm Mind to patch up the Special Defense stat (or Cosmic Power if you just feel like being a jerk). obviously you can't run all of those moves on the same set but it's a very powerful threat nonetheless

 

[Angry2]

@(Araquanid)
Stats: 74/80/131/34/146/25
Ability: Aqua Bubble
EVs: Varies widely dependin' on set
- Leech Seed/ Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Infestation/ Gyro Ball

OR
Literally any set Ferrothorn Runs, but does it much better

This Pokemon has very great defensive stats, which when combined with his AMAZING typing, Taking reduced damage from fire attacks and being basically immune to burn (Due to ability), Reliable Sleep (AKA Spore) and even poison (Not including Corrosion), and his Semi-Reliable recovery, This guy will be fairly found in stall teams most likely.

Also I personally think Incineroar will be fairly used for defensive/setting up purposes due to the bulk increase, intimidate, and multiple setting up ways like Nasty Plot, He also can give Darkest Lariat to those who are weak against set-up attackers which can be pretty nice.

 

[lightninging]

i have to go to practice soon so i cant rly do full noms but heres a bunch of my thoughts to generate discussion

doduo to at least b+. cross evolve w linoone for belly speed. murders shit ngl, gets knock for ghost, lacks other good coverage but steel wing 1hkos rhydon and other rock types so its at least situationally useful.

xern to a- maybe?? geomancy, specs, scarf are all viable. we gotta try block+rest sets too.

rufflet to B bc it breaks shit. same w deo-A.

cloyster to D bc shellsmash is just as unprepared for here as in ubers

cranidos to B. almost always sets up hazards, and memento is really fucking good.

staryu to c bc i dont like it and its too frail.

scraggy for D. mediocre bdrummer which has a hell of a knock off.

pdon to a bc its fuckin pdon

zigzagoon to c- or d. faster bellyspeeder w moderately less power. does get CC tho, and can use thief or knock depending on ur preference. i crossed with hitmonlee.

giratina-a to c+. its an OK stall mon.

murkow x fletch to c. lacks power and dies to espeed.

finneon to b+ bc its weak and i dont like it.

magmar to S bc its so good offensively.

gligar to S+ bc it is god in pokemon form.

tldr i am lazy but want thread activity so pls discuss
edit: this is post 420 omg im so happy it was me BLAZE IT YALL

 

[Ludicrousity]

I can now see Pikachu X Alolan Golem. 60/80/45/60/60/100 Galvanize Extreme Speed. Could be fun. athough it will still be pretty bad

 

[TimeZone]

Guys, i just found the most terrifying sweeper to ever be discovered, and guess what...the lil S.O.B has poison heal. prepare yourself, as I tell you the few things that can keep you safe from this beast.


Scyther =====> Breloom
70/200/100/55/80/140
Poison heal/Technician

-Spore
-Swords Dance
-Substitute
-Focus Punch

252Atk/4Def/252Spe+ W/jolly nature

First off, why the fuck was we using TECHNICIAN????

Lol, ok seriously now, this set here is your literal upgraded standard breloom set. this thing is arguably the best fighting type/wallbreaker in the entire meta. Behind a substitute it becomes extremely difficult to take down. spore makes this set just right down broken as it literally once again allows scyther to set up safely constantly, poison heal heals off the hp every time you use substitute, effectively keeping scyther healthy the entire game. swords dance is swords dance. Focus punch is just straight up wallbreaking.

+6 252 Atk Scyther Focus Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Spritzee: 289-341 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Who would of thought a SLEEPING milotic x spritzee, is practically becoming set up bait, and we all know how funny-acting sleep talk is :p. please do I have to speak up on gligar x gyarados? cause he's getting rekt too, unless you're going offensive where as i said, is going to be difficult time for you due to substitute . you need gale wings(before it Swords dance), unawere fairy/ghost(Or a ghost type in general) to keep this shit in check. Seriously, nothing can stomach a 150bp +2 Or more coming off a 200 base attack.

Btw, even with 252Hp on spritzee , it's a clean 2hko still.

edit 2: Faster Taunt user such as deoxys (s)also keeps it in check. anything faster than base 140 (this is why I love vivillon haunter) also keeps it in place BUT that's only if it's not behind a sub. Grass types such as tangela, keeps it in check but again, only if it is not behind a sub.

 

[lightninging]

Guys, i just found the most terrifying sweeper to ever be discovered, and guess what...the lil S.O.B has poison heal. prepare yourself, as I tell you the few things that can keep you safe from this beast.


Scyther =====> Breloom
70/200/100/55/80/140
Poison heal/Technician

-Spore
-Swords Dance
-Substitute
-Focus Punch

252Atk/4Def/252Spe+ W/jolly nature

First off, why the fuck was we using TECHNICIAN????

Lol, ok seriously now, this set here is your literal upgraded standard breloom set. this thing is arguably the best fighting type/wallbreaker in the entire meta. Behind a substitute it becomes extremely difficult to take down. spore makes this set just right down broken as it literally once again allows scyther to set up safely constantly, poison heal heals off the hp every time you use substitute, effectively keeping scyther healthy the entire game. swords dance is swords dance. Focus punch is just straight up wallbreaking.

+6 252 Atk Scyther Focus Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Spritzee: 289-341 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Who would of thought a SLEEPING milotic x spritzee, is practically becoming set up bait, and we all know how funny-acting sleep talk is :p. please do I have to speak up on gligar x gyarados? cause he's getting rekt too, unless you're going offensive where as i said, is going to be difficult time for you due to substitute . you need gale wings(before it Swords dance), unawere fairy/ghost(Or a ghost type in general) to keep this shit in check. Seriously, nothing can stomach a 150bp +2 Or more coming off a 200 base attack.

Btw, even with 252Hp on spritzee , it's a clean 2hko still.

edit 2: Faster Taunt user such as deoxys (s)also keeps it in check. anything faster than base 140 (this is why I love vivillon haunter) also keeps it in place BUT that's only if it's not behind a sub. Grass types such as tangela, keeps it in check but again, only if it is not behind a sub.

how the fuck is cm spritz set up bait when that thing is weak to fairy and only has 70/80 special bulk. also, espeed and taunt fuck it over, as do grass types to a much smaller extent.

edit: peep the calc
0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 356-422 (126.6 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Dunfan]

Since Water Bubble now doubles the power of Water-type moves, it will have some utility.

Araquanid (Totodile) @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ice Punch
- Aqua Jet
- Liquidation

Just a sample, it's probably bad.
But still, Aqua Jet with Water Bubble, Life Orb, STAB and Sword Dance looks neat.

Also, how cross-evolving with Silvally will work ?
Will you change your typing with RKS system ?

 

[dsm77773]

Nobody has commenteed on these noms so I will:

i have to go to practice soon so i cant rly do full noms but heres a bunch of my thoughts to generate discussion

doduo to at least b+. cross evolve w linoone for belly speed. murders shit ngl, gets knock for ghost, lacks other good coverage but steel wing 1hkos rhydon and other rock types so its at least situationally useful.

xern to a- maybe?? geomancy, specs, scarf are all viable. we gotta try block+rest sets too.

rufflet to B bc it breaks shit. same w deo-A.

cloyster to D bc shellsmash is just as unprepared for here as in ubers

cranidos to B. almost always sets up hazards, and memento is really fucking good.

staryu to c bc i dont like it and its too frail.

scraggy for D. mediocre bdrummer which has a hell of a knock off.

pdon to a bc its fuckin pdon

zigzagoon to c- or d. faster bellyspeeder w moderately less power. does get CC tho, and can use thief or knock depending on ur preference. i crossed with hitmonlee.

giratina-a to c+. its an OK stall mon.

murkow x fletch to c. lacks power and dies to espeed.

finneon to b+ bc its weak and i dont like it.

magmar to S bc its so good offensively.

gligar to S+ bc it is god in pokemon form.

tldr i am lazy but want thread activity so pls discuss
edit: this is post 420 omg im so happy it was me BLAZE IT YALL

Agree

Xerneas
Rufflet (should be B- imo, like Archen: longevity vs. power)
Staryu
Primal Groudon, maybe
Magmar (want more discussion on this)
Gligar (want more discussion on this)

Disagree

Deoxys-Attack: has proven, everytime I tested, underwhelming, has 4MSS since with Psycho Boost, Extreme Speed and two coverage moves it can't cover everything, it is destroyed by priority, and it is forced out by p much anything it can't OHKO.
Cranidos: the Hitmonlee set is better done by Archen, and the suicide lead set is beaten by other dedicated leads easily, best example is Deoxys-S. Really should be at the same level as Deoxys-S (Magic Coat vs. Memento), and both are suicide leads that only really fit on HO teams.
Doduo: It's not that reliable. It has cardboard bulk, is stopped badly by Unaware or pretty much anything that can survive a hit and KO back (considering Doduo's bad bulk and it being at 75% health at best due to Belly Drum, that's not that difficult), and while its absurd power (because it's at +6) somewhat remedies this, it has bad coverage and a predictable moveset: Drum/ESpeed/Knock Off/Steel Wing. Doduo should be ranked, but not that high.

Can't really comment about the others since I have no experience with them or I don't really mind their new proposed new rank. Murkrow should be a bit higher imo, granted it's not great but destroys offense, and with Band it's power is decent at worst.
If no one disagreees I'll go on and I'll move the ones that I agree with.

Guys, i just found the most terrifying sweeper to ever be discovered, and guess what...the lil S.O.B has poison heal. prepare yourself, as I tell you the few things that can keep you safe from this beast.


Scyther =====> Breloom
70/200/100/55/80/140
Poison heal/Technician

-Spore
-Swords Dance
-Substitute
-Focus Punch

252Atk/4Def/252Spe+ W/jolly nature

First off, why the fuck was we using TECHNICIAN????

Lol, ok seriously now, this set here is your literal upgraded standard breloom set. this thing is arguably the best fighting type/wallbreaker in the entire meta. Behind a substitute it becomes extremely difficult to take down. spore makes this set just right down broken as it literally once again allows scyther to set up safely constantly, poison heal heals off the hp every time you use substitute, effectively keeping scyther healthy the entire game. swords dance is swords dance. Focus punch is just straight up wallbreaking.

+6 252 Atk Scyther Focus Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Spritzee: 289-341 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Who would of thought a SLEEPING milotic x spritzee, is practically becoming set up bait, and we all know how funny-acting sleep talk is :p. please do I have to speak up on gligar x gyarados? cause he's getting rekt too, unless you're going offensive where as i said, is going to be difficult time for you due to substitute . you need gale wings(before it Swords dance), unawere fairy/ghost(Or a ghost type in general) to keep this shit in check. Seriously, nothing can stomach a 150bp +2 Or more coming off a 200 base attack.

Btw, even with 252Hp on spritzee , it's a clean 2hko still.

edit 2: Faster Taunt user such as deoxys (s)also keeps it in check. anything faster than base 140 (this is why I love vivillon haunter) also keeps it in place BUT that's only if it's not behind a sub. Grass types such as tangela, keeps it in check but again, only if it is not behind a sub.

how the fuck is cm spritz set up bait when that thing is weak to fairy and only has 70/80 special bulk. also, espeed and taunt fuck it over, as do grass types to a much smaller extent.

edit: peep the calc
0 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 356-422 (126.6 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not to mention that set cannot literally touch any Ghost-type, such as the increasingly common Doublade x Flygon, and Pumpkaboo-Super x Chansey. Mega Gengar, in particular, destroys that set.

Also, how cross-evolving with Silvally will work ?
Will you change your typing with RKS system ?

It depends on the ability's exact mechanics, but it is likely to be hard-coded to Silvally, and thus it won't work on other Pokémon but regular Silvally.