SPOILERS! [Crown Tundra!] List of Movepool Changes

Probably not as impressive as it sounds considering it's terrain boosted, banded, and Adamant off one of the highest base attack stats in the game. Also it requires Rillaboom to set up the terrain. Compare it to the busted shit that is Urshifu...

252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%)
Yeh, I think Grassy Glide Kartana is overrated as heck. Not only you have to invest a moveslot in a conditional attack which is otherwise pretty mediocre, but it also requires someone else to set terrain for it.

And Koko /Lele are looking to return in full force with their own terrain moves so not like there won't be constant competition on terrain setting
 
Yeh, I think Grassy Glide Kartana is overrated as heck. Not only you have to invest a moveslot in a conditional attack which is otherwise pretty mediocre, but it also requires someone else to set terrain for it.

And Koko /Lele are looking to return in full force with their own terrain moves so not like there won't be constant competition on terrain setting
Until they get quickbanned
 
Just like Dugtrio, Dracovish, Magearna, and Cinderace.
Quickbans are still plausible, since Koko and Lele would have the same presence as Dracovish (Click one button and kill everything), but instead they won’t have any guaranteed counters and are way faster.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight in Psychic Terrain: 171-201 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 322-381 (45 - 53.3%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 154-182 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Psychic Terrain: 156-184 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Same idea for Koko. There might not be any point in a suspect test to see if the meta can adapt to their presence. Frankly, I don’t think it’s possible to adapt to that.
 
Quickbans are still plausible, since Koko and Lele would have the same presence as Dracovish (Click one button and kill everything), but instead they won’t have any guaranteed counters and are way faster.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight in Psychic Terrain: 171-201 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 322-381 (45 - 53.3%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 154-182 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Psychic Terrain: 156-184 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Same idea for Koko. There might not be any point in a suspect test to see if the meta can adapt to their presence. Frankly, I don’t think it’s possible to adapt to that.
Don't get me wrong I'm completely in favor of a quick ban and I expect it to happen within a few days. But given the council's choices lately I'm feeling pretty pessimistic about the upgraded Tapus, Ultra Beasts, Lati twins, Genesect, and even stuff like boots Dragonite getting injected into the meta all at once. Even if a few things are quick banned historically speaking we're going to be suspect testing for years before Smogon can catch up. Even now we have suspects like Pex, Clefable, and Urshifu that were probably worth looking at that probably won't even be touched until the DLC releases.

Considering the OU forum has had multiple discussions closed lately I don't think the council is willing to talk about it much, so who knows where we'll be in 6 months.

In any case I eagerly await using LO Koko and Specs Lele for 24 hours post release before their ban.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn in Electric Terrain: 157-186 (44.6 - 52.8%)

aww yeah that's gonna be a good 24 hours.
 
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Am I the only one worried about Scorching Sands/Lava Plume Heatran? That is terrifying for any physical attacker to switch into.
Quickbans are still plausible, since Koko and Lele would have the same presence as Dracovish (Click one button and kill everything), but instead they won’t have any guaranteed counters and are way faster.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight in Psychic Terrain: 171-201 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 322-381 (45 - 53.3%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 154-182 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Psychic Terrain: 156-184 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Same idea for Koko. There might not be any point in a suspect test to see if the meta can adapt to their presence. Frankly, I don’t think it’s possible to adapt to that.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 532-627 (131.6 - 155.1%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD typeless Mew in Psychic Terrain: 420-495 (103.9 - 122.5%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Electric Terrain: 393-463 (97.2 - 114.6%)
Uhh, hold your horses a bit here. Koko has only got a 140 BP move backed by 95 SpA *1.3, not a 170 BP move backed by 90 Atk *1.5 that can be further amped up by Rain. And it's totally dependent on a field effect that can be easily cleared by another terrain setter or even a Defogger.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 153-180 (44.6 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
These calcs don't look so impressive, do they? Plus both of them have a complete natural immunity to their moves that Dracovish totally lacks. Koko without Hidden Power Ice struggles to pressure Grounds, especially with a Choice lock. Lele can obviously hit Darks, but Choiced it becomes very prediction-heavy and a potential momentum sink.

Comparing Lele and Koko to Dracovish is totally inaccurate. Besides, Dracozolt hits harder than all of them and presently has no viability in OU. Dragapult outclasses Koko at 99% of its old roles, so realistically the new Banded set and special Dracozolt are its only niches. Lele might be more problematic but I would hardly say the metagame isn't capable of adapting to it.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 148-175 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Without HP Fire it's totally reliant on raw force or Focus Miss to break Steels.
 
Am I the only one worried about Scorching Sands/Lava Plume Heatran? That is terrifying for any physical attacker to switch into.

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 532-627 (131.6 - 155.1%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD typeless Mew in Psychic Terrain: 420-495 (103.9 - 122.5%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Electric Terrain: 393-463 (97.2 - 114.6%)
Uhh, hold your horses a bit here. Koko has only got a 140 BP move backed by 95 SpA *1.3, not a 170 BP move backed by 90 Atk *1.5 that can be further amped up by Rain. And it's totally dependent on a field effect that can be easily cleared by another terrain setter or even a Defogger.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 153-180 (44.6 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
These calcs don't look so impressive, do they? Plus both of them have a complete natural immunity to their moves that Dracovish totally lacks. Koko without Hidden Power Ice struggles to pressure Grounds, especially with a Choice lock. Lele can obviously hit Darks, but Choiced it becomes very prediction-heavy and a potential momentum sink.

Comparing Lele and Koko to Dracovish is totally inaccurate. Besides, Dracozolt hits harder than all of them and presently has no viability in OU. Dragapult outclasses Koko at 99% of its old roles, so realistically the new Banded set and special Dracozolt are its only niches. Lele might be more problematic but I would hardly say the metagame isn't capable of adapting to it.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 148-175 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Without HP Fire it's totally reliant on raw force or Focus Miss to break Steels.
Koko has 130 base speed, Dracovish has 75 and a move that requires it go first. Also Lele is much faster, and has 130 base SA with good coverage moves on top of its obviously OP Expanding Force. They're only comparable in the sense that a Pokemon has a single overwhelmingly powerful STAB move but other than that Koko and Lele are probably going to be found to be MUCH stronger than Dracovish. I would be shocked if they aren't both quickbanned.

Actually maybe not that shocked.

guys, I get that you may or may not be frustrated with what is happening in OU, but I'd remind you this isnt OU and isn't the place for this discussion.
There is, by design, literally no place on Smogon to discuss the performance and decisions of the OU council.
 
Koko has 130 base speed, Dracovish has 75 and a move that requires it go first.
Uhhh no, go actually run the calcs. Rend also doubles on a switch-in in case you forgot, and Vish is either going to be faster and/or forcing a switch in most instances.
Also Lele is much faster, and has 130 base SA with good coverage moves
Vish only really having one move is a point in its favour, since little prediction is required to use it. Lele is going to be really prediction-reliant, akin to a UU Infernape where it kills everything if it guesses right every turn but can easily go to waste.
obviously OP Expanding Force
This gen:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas in Psychic Terrain: 387-456 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Last gen:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas in Psychic Terrain: 334-394 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas in Psychic Terrain: 433-510 (102.1 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yep. Obviously OP. You do remember terrain got nerfed right? And that also means Psyshock is weaker so it's harder to break pink blobs and beat Calm Minders. Sure it's a net upgrade, but I don't recall Lele being anywhere near broken last gen?
Policy Review
Also IS too if there's a bigger issue.
 
Policy Review
New players can't post there and the people allowed in are hand selected. Also despite all the recent frustrations it seems like people there aren't very willing to talk about alternative options and those that are don't seem to get very far.

Thread suggesting auto-banning trapping. Locked.

Complaints about the slow actions of the council. Locked.

Rey brought up issues with the tiering process a year ago. No changes since.

More talk about the OU council.

Concerns about the transparency of the tiering process. Locked a year ago, still an issue.

Nearly year old post bringing up the coming issues of DLC.

Additionally the majority of posts there are about past gen or updates to tournament policy.

Anyway I have nothing else to add. Clearly this is an issue that isn't being addressed but this isn't the place to talk about it soooo....

Uhhh no, go actually run the calcs. Rend also doubles on a switch-in in case you forgot, and Vish is either going to be faster and/or forcing a switch in most instances.

Vish only really having one move is a point in its favour, since little prediction is required to use it. Lele is going to be really prediction-reliant, akin to a UU Infernape where it kills everything if it guesses right every turn but can easily go to waste.

This gen:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas in Psychic Terrain: 387-456 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Last gen:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas in Psychic Terrain: 334-394 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas in Psychic Terrain: 433-510 (102.1 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yep. Obviously OP. You do remember terrain got nerfed right? And that also means Psyshock is weaker so it's harder to break pink blobs and beat Calm Minders. Sure it's a net upgrade, but I don't recall Lele being anywhere near broken last gen?
Gen 8 is running at a much lower power level than gen 7 was. It's slower and MUCH weaker. In the past Specs 1.5x Psychic wasn't as crazy as say, +2 Kartana using a Z move or Mega Medicham jumping really high. Yes terrains were nerfed but even considering that the Tapus are going to do more damage than they would have in the previous gen. Tapu Lele 2HKOs almost every single Pokemon in OU right now with Specs Expanding Force + Moonblast. Even Chansey dies in two hits after Stealth Rock if it's at 90%, or you cleanly 2HKO it from full HP with Psyshock. Even Specially Defensive Ferrothron runs the risk of a OHKO after Stealth Rocks from Focus Blast. Lastly Pursuit is gone so picking it off after it gets locked into something isn't an option.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 265-313 (77.7 - 91.7%) *with gen 7 electric terrain

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Electric Terrain: 358-423 (104.9 - 124%)

That's a 35% damage increase. Also Koko has 130 base speed and a good movepool including Close Combat.

You compare it to Dracovish... but Dracovish was banned lol.
 
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Probably not as impressive as it sounds considering it's terrain boosted, banded, and Adamant off one of the highest base attack stats in the game. Also it requires Rillaboom to set up the terrain. Compare it to the busted shit that is Urshifu...

252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%)
Oh it's definitely not as impressive as it sounds, (wayyyy too many factors at play), but it IS a priority move with that level of power and Toxapex basically has to run max Defense to have a small chance at not getting 2HKOed.

Given Kartana's track record with moves I won't be surprised if it ends up not able to learn Grassy Glide, lol.
 
Gen 8 is running at a much lower power level than gen 7 was. It's slower and MUCH weaker. In the past Specs 1.5x Psychic wasn't as crazy as say, +2 Kartana using a Z move or Mega Medicham jumping really high. Yes terrains were nerfed but even considering that the Tapus are going to do more damage than they would have in the previous gen. Tapu Lele 2HKOs almost every single Pokemon in OU right now with Specs Expanding Force + Moonblast. Even Chansey dies in two hits after Stealth Rock, or you cleanly 2HKO it with Psyshock. Even Specially Defensive Ferrothron runs the risk of a OHKO after Stealth Rocks from Focus Blast. Lastly Pursuit is gone to picking it off after it gets locked into something isn't an option.
It's about to jump a HUGE amount, as many of those things that gave such a huge power level are coming back. Like I said, all this you mention is prediction-heavy and you can end up doing very little.
I can see it being handled kinda similar to Urshifu: scout the Choice lock, bring in the resist/immunity. You keep saying how it 2HKOs this and KOs that but the only way that happens in practice is if you get your predictions dead-on. Sure it's strong, but is it that much more stronger than Urshifu's Wicked Blow? Or Magnezone's Analytic Thunderbolt? It has literally no way to break a healthy Celesteela without HP Fire, and Celesteela carries Protect as standard to gain extra recovery, which also lets it stall out Psychic Terrain and/or scout its Choice lock. IMO the set Lele want a to run is going to be Life Orb so you can change up your moves but that causes it to miss out on several benchmarks eg: It always 3HKOs standard Corviknight.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 153-180 (38.5 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And the lack of Pursuit trapping hasn't broken Aegislash, Zam or Gengar, three mons who have also had movepool buffs this gen (I know Aegi got nerfed, but it would be Uber if it hadn't). Do we really need to be able to Pursuit trap Nasty Plot Gengar? Besides, Lele is neutral to Dark, so it's no more vulnerable to Pursuit trapping than any other average mon, and I've never heard anyone discuss Pursuit trapping keeping Lando-T or Kartana in check.
Basically, if it turns out to get Mystical Fire, then we've got an issue. Until then, give it a chance lol.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 265-313 (77.7 - 91.7%) *with gen 7 electric terrain

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Electric Terrain: 358-423 (104.9 - 124%)

That's a 35% damage increase. Also Koko has 130 base speed and a good movepool including Close Combat.
Yes, Koko has got buffed. That's the only reason I'm willing to discuss its existence without inserting a redirect tag to Dragapult. But I think your own sentence holds the clue as to Koko's problem. Isn't Close Combat physical? And isn't Rising Voltage special? Are you really going to be able to go mixed with enough investment to make those physical moves meaningful, and still be able to make those impressive on-paper calcs play out?
But there's more than a few problems with Koko. Oh dear, it appears this mon hits like a wet noodle when clicking anything but an E-Terrain-boosted move (something that was also true last gen). But the biggest issue for it? No Hidden Power Ice. How is Koko meant to pressure any Ground types without HP Ice? Especially one mon that may or may not be on 1/3 post-DLC teams or something like that...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 208-246 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Scarf Lando-T can hard switch into anything it does and OHKO it.)
It does get Grass Knot, but even Specs Modest Grass Knot has very disappointing damage output when your attacking stat is as low as Koko's SpA.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 124-146 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- 47.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Just in general Koko is going to be dead weight against every Sand team.)
I think overall Koko's best set is going to be a Boots pivot set much like Dragapult and Zeraora.
Tapu Koko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Naive Nature
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
- Rising Voltage/Wild Charge
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Play Rough
Rising Voltage doesn't need to be absurdly invested to put dents in offensive teams, and Koko has 0 chance of being a serious wallbreaker against sturdy backbones. It just does wayyyy too little when clicking moves not called Rising Voltage and struggles too much with Grounds.
 
It's about to jump a HUGE amount, as many of those things that gave such a huge power level are coming back. Like I said, all this you mention is prediction-heavy and you can end up doing very little.
I can see it being handled kinda similar to Urshifu: scout the Choice lock, bring in the resist/immunity. You keep saying how it 2HKOs this and KOs that but the only way that happens in practice is if you get your predictions dead-on. Sure it's strong, but is it that much more stronger than Urshifu's Wicked Blow? Or Magnezone's Analytic Thunderbolt? It has literally no way to break a healthy Celesteela without HP Fire, and Celesteela carries Protect as standard to gain extra recovery, which also lets it stall out Psychic Terrain and/or scout its Choice lock. IMO the set Lele want a to run is going to be Life Orb so you can change up your moves but that causes it to miss out on several benchmarks eg: It always 3HKOs standard Corviknight.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 153-180 (38.5 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And the lack of Pursuit trapping hasn't broken Aegislash, Zam or Gengar, three mons who have also had movepool buffs this gen (I know Aegi got nerfed, but it would be Uber if it hadn't). Do we really need to be able to Pursuit trap Nasty Plot Gengar? Besides, Lele is neutral to Dark, so it's no more vulnerable to Pursuit trapping than any other average mon, and I've never heard anyone discuss Pursuit trapping keeping Lando-T or Kartana in check.
Basically, if it turns out to get Mystical Fire, then we've got an issue. Until then, give it a chance lol.

Yes, Koko has got buffed. That's the only reason I'm willing to discuss its existence without inserting a redirect tag to Dragapult. But I think your own sentence holds the clue as to Koko's problem. Isn't Close Combat physical? And isn't Rising Voltage special? Are you really going to be able to go mixed with enough investment to make those physical moves meaningful, and still be able to make those impressive on-paper calcs play out?
But there's more than a few problems with Koko. Oh dear, it appears this mon hits like a wet noodle when clicking anything but an E-Terrain-boosted move (something that was also true last gen). But the biggest issue for it? No Hidden Power Ice. How is Koko meant to pressure any Ground types without HP Ice? Especially one mon that may or may not be on 1/3 post-DLC teams or something like that...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 208-246 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Scarf Lando-T can hard switch into anything it does and OHKO it.)
It does get Grass Knot, but even Specs Modest Grass Knot has very disappointing damage output when your attacking stat is as low as Koko's SpA.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 124-146 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- 47.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Just in general Koko is going to be dead weight against every Sand team.)
I think overall Koko's best set is going to be a Boots pivot set much like Dragapult and Zeraora.
Tapu Koko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Naive Nature
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
- Rising Voltage/Wild Charge
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Play Rough
Rising Voltage doesn't need to be absurdly invested to put dents in offensive teams, and Koko has 0 chance of being a serious wallbreaker against sturdy backbones. It just does wayyyy too little when clicking moves not called Rising Voltage and struggles too much with Grounds.
Lele is stronger than it was in the past in a meta where overall power levels are greatly reduced and common counter-play such as Pursuit trapping it is now impossible. I'm not saying it doesn't deserve a chance, but that it's almost certainly going to be too strong. But the fact that there's going to be 2-4 weeks wasted on a test augments my previous argument that these bans and tests take too long, and there's going to be a dozen or so other suspects in the meta all at once. By the time OU works out its issues it will be mid 2021 and Gamefreak will have already dumped another round of DLC on us.

Koko is obviously busted, I don't know how you can look at a Pokemon with 130 base speed and nearly as much power as Dracovish's FR and not see that. In addition Koko gets U-turn, CC, and Play Rough as well as some lesser but still valid options like Grass Knot, Nature's Madness, Roost, Taunt, and Dazzling Gleam. You list... what, Lando as a check? Of course it has checks, Dracovish had checks. Kyogre has checks! But it will force gross amounts of centralization and despite that still have the movepool to break through them. Koko isn't just going to run Specs, it's going to run either LO or HDB and just wear down its counters or even Scarf to late game clean up. Unlike Draco it doesn't need to run scarf to wipe out a team.

Landorus is 2HKOed by LO Dazzling Gleam and requires HP and sp def EVs to make it a favorable 3HKO.

Excadrill is OHKOed by LO Close Combat with zero attack EV investment.

Hippowdon is OHKOed by LO Grass Knot unless it runs sp def EVs.

There's plenty of checks for a healthy team but this piece of busted garbage cleans up FAR too easily compared to anything else. It's obviously something that forces you to run multiple checks to avoid instantly losing to and anything that does that shouldn't be allowed in OU. It's the Dracovish argument all over again, except Koko is probably even better than Vish.
 
Lele is stronger than it was in the past in a meta where overall power levels are greatly reduced and common counter-play such as Pursuit trapping it is now impossible. I'm not saying it doesn't deserve a chance, but that it's almost certainly going to be too strong. But the fact that there's going to be 2-4 weeks wasted on a test augments my previous argument that these bans and tests take too long, and there's going to be a dozen or so other suspects in the meta all at once. By the time OU works out its issues it will be mid 2021 and Gamefreak will have already dumped another round of DLC on us.

Koko is obviously busted, I don't know how you can look at a Pokemon with 130 base speed and nearly as much power as Dracovish's FR and not see that. In addition Koko gets U-turn, CC, and Play Rough as well as some lesser but still valid options like Grass Knot, Nature's Madness, Roost, Taunt, and Dazzling Gleam. You list... what, Lando as a check? Of course it has checks, Dracovish had checks. Kyogre has checks! But it will force gross amounts of centralization and despite that still have the movepool to break through them. Koko isn't just going to run Specs, it's going to run either LO or HDB and just wear down its counters or even Scarf to late game clean up. Unlike Draco it doesn't need to run scarf to wipe out a team.

Landorus is 2HKOed by LO Dazzling Gleam and requires HP and sp def EVs to make it a favorable 3HKO.

Excadrill is OHKOed by LO Close Combat with zero attack EV investment.

Hippowdon is OHKOed by LO Grass Knot unless it runs sp def EVs.

There's plenty of checks for a healthy team but this piece of busted garbage cleans up FAR too easily compared to anything else. It's obviously something that forces you to run multiple checks to avoid instantly losing to and anything that does that shouldn't be allowed in OU. It's the Dracovish argument all over again, except Koko is probably even better than Vish.
Just want to say I 100% agree with you about Koko and Lele. They both were already Great Pokémon and got even better now. While suspects are important, we really don’t need a month dedicated to finding out that Koko and Lele are obviously broken. Also, it’s not like they can’t be retested after the tier is cleared up a bit. Hope the council becomes a bit more proactive once DLC drops. They could do what the lower tiers did and ban immediately broken stuff via weekly council votes
 

RoiDadadou

My heart and actions are utterly unclouded.
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To speculate around the moves that we have so far :
- Fiery Wrath : I hope for some 90 BP or 30<= flinching chances. If it's a Dark Pulse bis, go to hell. If it's 100 BP (no chance of that), hell yeah.
- Thundurous Kick : 80BP, 90BP max, else it will be really busted.
- Freezing Glare : I hope for a good 90BP, like a good old fashioned Ice Beam.
- Dragon Energy : Obviously 150 BP.
- Thunder Cage : If it's a Fire Spin-like, lame. If it's an Electric Magma Storm, gosh will it be awesome.
- Eerie Spell : Hmm, 80 BP seems legit, but 85-90 isn't broken I'd say.
 
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(Just in general Koko is going to be dead weight against every Sand team.)
I think overall Koko's best set is going to be a Boots pivot set much like Dragapult and Zeraora.
Tapu Koko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Naive Nature
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
- Rising Voltage/Wild Charge
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Play Rough
Rising Voltage doesn't need to be absurdly invested to put dents in offensive teams, and Koko has 0 chance of being a serious wallbreaker against sturdy backbones. It just does wayyyy too little when clicking moves not called Rising Voltage and struggles too much with Grounds.
I normally agree with you on most things but koko is a big no-no. Koko is extremely versatile and they just gave it a nuke it can use on any set.

Just look at these.

Tapu Koko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Rising Voltage
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot / Toxic / Dazzling Gleam
- U-turn

Tapu Koko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Rising Voltage
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- U-turn

Tapu Koko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electric Surge
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Calm Mind
- Grass Knot
- Roost / U-turn / Dazzling Gleam

Tapu Koko @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Work Up
- Rising Voltage
- Close Combat / Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot

Tapu Koko @ Light Clay
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rising Voltage
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- U-turn
And this is without even looking into LO or specs sets. Koko is gonna be a monster.

Also just throwing it out there cuz I feel a lot of people forget but Rising Voltage is weaker vs non grounded opponents, so levitate users might be useful against it
 
So with only less than 3 weeks to go before the release of the Crown Tundra. Are you slapping moves on your Pokemon that you know it won't get when it gets transferred? I know I have to make room for a possible 5th Dragonite for Hydro Pump. I hope the tutor list and TM compatibility changes. I'm hoping for another HOME datamine with a revised TM compatibility list. I really hope Garchomp gets High Horsepower. I don't like EQ cuz I'm a doubles guy and I don't like to pair Garchomp with a Flying type/Levitating/Telepathy mon all the time. Absol I doubt will get Burning Jealousy although in a previous datamine Mightyena does yet it's not in the game.
 
So with only less than 3 weeks to go before the release of the Crown Tundra. Are you slapping moves on your Pokemon that you know it won't get when it gets transferred? I know I have to make room for a possible 5th Dragonite for Hydro Pump. I hope the tutor list and TM compatibility changes. I'm hoping for another HOME datamine with a revised TM compatibility list. I really hope Garchomp gets High Horsepower. I don't like EQ cuz I'm a doubles guy and I don't like to pair Garchomp with a Flying type/Levitating/Telepathy mon all the time. Absol I doubt will get Burning Jealousy although in a previous datamine Mightyena does yet it's not in the game.
Eh not really. Gamefreak successfully strangled 6v6 singles and VGC doesn't allow past game moves. For the most part trying to save legacy moves is pointless.

I miss 4th gen wifi :/
 
Eh not really. Gamefreak successfully strangled 6v6 singles and VGC doesn't allow past game moves. For the most part trying to save legacy moves is pointless.

I miss 4th gen wifi :/
I was never in the competitive scene but for those who play unranked battles being able to utilize moves learnt from past gens. I'm kind of worried how will certain Pokemon patched in will be to withstand Dynamax.
 
I was never in the competitive scene but for those who play unranked battles being able to utilize moves learnt from past gens. I'm kind of worried how will certain Pokemon patched in will be to withstand Dynamax.
Unranked friendly battles have never been of any balance interest. Doesn't look like GameFreaks remotely cares of you being able to body people with past gen ubers.
 
I am sorry if this isn't the right place, but I didnt know where to post it.

I really really hope the move pool changes are off, and Tapu Fini gets Life Dew. It just makes so much sense for it, and while it isnt the best recovery in singles, it is something. Plus, if they can give Koko something like Rising Voltage and Lele Expanding Force, Fini can get something too.
 

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