Resource Crown Tundra SS Ubers Viability Rankings

Blissey, on the other hand, is incredibly abusable and passive, gets hard trapped by Goth and can also be easily worn down by hazards (while Etern can mitigate hazard damage with HDB/Black Sludge), fitting best on more passive, stally teams.
Correction here, Blissey is not trapped by Goth if it has teleport, which is much more useful than Eternatus running DTail (which is weak and useless against the fairies). If Eternatus does not have DTail, it must have Shed Shell which makes the hazard point moot since no HDB. Blissey can also spread rocks, paralyze with TWave or poison with Toxic. Only thing it lacks compared to defensive Eternatus is TSpike, otherwise Blissey offers superior role compression. Blissey can also support team with Wish+Port combo I guess.

I agree that Blissey is passive, but defensive Eternatus also struggles to handle other wallbreakers not named Kyogre, thus I much prefer Blissey as Kyogre check (Blissey can also switch into specs/scarf Calyrex using Astral Barrage and prevent a sweep, if necessary).
 

FatFighter2

zacian waifu :flushed:
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
Correction here, Blissey is not trapped by Goth if it has teleport, which is much more useful than Eternatus running DTail (which is weak and useless against the fairies). If Eternatus does not have DTail, it must have Shed Shell which makes the hazard point moot since no HDB. Blissey can also spread rocks, paralyze with TWave or poison with Toxic. Only thing it lacks compared to defensive Eternatus is TSpike, otherwise Blissey offers superior role compression. Blissey can also support team with Wish+Port combo I guess.

I agree that Blissey is passive, but defensive Eternatus also struggles to handle other wallbreakers not named Kyogre, thus I much prefer Blissey as Kyogre check (Blissey can also switch into specs/scarf Calyrex using Astral Barrage and prevent a sweep, if necessary).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't taunt Goth prevent Teleports (Unless you teleport on the switch)? And even trick variants completely cripple blissey with a choice item, even if it can't trap it. In addition, Wish+Teleport is incompatable, sadly.

Eternatus can also serve as a nice knock off absorber, as Yveltal, the most common mon in the tier, loves spamming knock off.

However, I do agree that Blissey provides some very nice utility (another one you didn't mention is aromatherpy), which compensates for its lack of offensive presence (although it does suffer from 4MSS). Certainly, it has its advantages, on certain styles of teams.
 

Fusion Flare

i have hired this cat to stare at you
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't taunt Goth prevent Teleports (Unless you teleport on the switch)? And even trick variants completely cripple blissey with a choice item, even if it can't trap it. In addition, Wish+Teleport is incompatable, sadly.

Eternatus can also serve as a nice knock off absorber, as Yveltal, the most common mon in the tier, loves spamming knock off.

However, I do agree that Blissey provides some very nice utility (another one you didn't mention is aromatherpy), which compensates for its lack of offensive presence (although it does suffer from 4MSS). Certainly, it has its advantages, on certain styles of teams.
If I recall correctly, one can seismic toss repeadetly until gothitelle is forced to rest, in which case you now are free to teleport. Note that this can backfire, and it’s pretty hard to fit all your moves, so tread carefully in the builder.
 

Manaphy

Throughout heaven and earth, I alone am family guy
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I myself have been arguing for Blissey to go to A rank for awhile and Eternatus to go to A+. I am kind-of known for having a Blissey fetish, but to be honest, I just think the mon is underexplored by the majority of the playerbase because people are just used to NDM/Etern/Yve cores and not thinking after that. It’s a lazy way to build and makes the tier stale.

IMO, Blissey does indeed offer superior role compression, and it’s utility options like any status, Teleport, or Aromatherapy greatly help with it’s supposed passivity. Confide is a huge niche as well, greatly keeping you safe against Xerneas and CM Ogre. Let’s take a typical core of, say, NDM/Yve/Ho-Oh/Etern, or the big 3 + Lunala; this core gets absolutely soloed by Ingrain Xerneas. If CM Ogre happens to be the last mon, it’s a great threat and Dtail will not do anything. Offensive Etern is also a huge threat to typical NDM/Yve/Etern cores and Blissey is a full-stop.

I think a point that doesn’t get enough focus for Blissey is it’s ability to free up your teambuilding. With Blissey as backup, you are much safer running a set like Blackglasses, Scarf, Phys Def, or Band Yveltal. Blissey allows your Eternatus to go offensive (some builders try to use Ferrothorn instead, but their teams get murdered by any Specs Ogre), or something that doesn’t get appreciated enough as well is Physically Defensive Eternatus, a great check to dangerous breakers like Offensive Ho-Oh, Marshadow, Urshifu; and even Zekrom in a pinch. Aromatherapy is perhaps the single best move for balance teams atm and Blissey can use it, freeing up the moveslot on other mons like Calyrex or Xerneas. In pair with NDM, you have a foolproof defense against Xerneas, meaning you have more room to build there as well (I always carry at least two checks to Xerneas on my teams). Hell, with Ice Beam Blissey can even become a decent emergency check/lure to Zygarde.

When building with Blissey, there’s a couple of things you want to keep in mind. Firstly, as I learned in my last seasonal set, you’ll want a way to consistently deal with TSpikes, as Etern can just spam it on you otherwise. Running your own poison type like Offensive/Phys Def Etern, trapping their Etern with Dugtrio/Goth, or having dual defoggers are decent methods to deal with this. You’ll also want to make sure that you pack a Ho-Oh switch-in, since Etern usually is the default go-to. Zekrom or Kyogre are pretty decent for this. Having your designated knock absorber is important too, since Etern is usually the one to do this. But yeah, if you want to change up your teams from the typical NDm/Yve/Etern cores, I would recommend Blissey as a great mon to explore :-]
 

Garrett

Banned deucer.
I myself have been arguing for Blissey to go to A rank for awhile and Eternatus to go to A+. I am kind-of known for having a Blissey fetish, but to be honest, I just think the mon is underexplored by the majority of the playerbase because people are just used to NDM/Etern/Yve cores and not thinking after that. It’s a lazy way to build and makes the tier stale.

IMO, Blissey does indeed offer superior role compression, and it’s utility options like any status, Teleport, or Aromatherapy greatly help with it’s supposed passivity. Confide is a huge niche as well, greatly keeping you safe against Xerneas and CM Ogre. Let’s take a typical core of, say, NDM/Yve/Ho-Oh/Etern, or the big 3 + Lunala; this core gets absolutely soloed by Ingrain Xerneas. If CM Ogre happens to be the last mon, it’s a great threat and Dtail will not do anything. Offensive Etern is also a huge threat to typical NDM/Yve/Etern cores and Blissey is a full-stop.
This makes me wanna do it, so I'll do it. I'm gonna nominate Ferrothorn down to B+ since I agree that Blissey is deservedly better for role compression and should be A. I consider Ferrothorn strikingly less available on most kinds of teams than any of the mons currently in A-. Ferrothorn is chosen for simple reasons: "beat" Kyogre and most Zekrom while being able to get up Spikes. Specs Ogre shreds this thing, and running Umbrella means it's nowhere near as good at checking the other things it needs to. Ferrothorn immensely suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome in wanting all of:
1.) Spikes (obligatory to justify using this, otherwise you'd always run Blissey/Eternatus)
2.) Leech Seed (obligatory to heal)
3.) Curse (obligatory to beat Zekrom setting up)
4.) Knock Off (extremely useful utility)
5.) Gyro Ball (otherwise Sub Xerneas sets up on it for free, otherwise you'd prefer Blissey)
6.) Power Whip (otherwise Specs/CM Ogre stays in)

Increases in Tangrowth/Amoongus further invalidate its ability to heal with Leech Seed, which already banks on accuracy to get a small amount (not really enough to shrug off Specs Ogre, especially without Leftovers).
 

LBN

is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UPL Champion
Let me spit some noms right now because i see some things being very disrespected rn and also some things cosplaying as hot shit when they actually suck more ass than Seven deadly sins season 1,2 and 3.

A- to B+/B This mon never really feels like it does its job well. It's really passive when its not running an offensive set but that offensive set is Caly-G but bad. I will say Agility Meteor beam can be heater that does like 80% to yveltal, but like you need it low enough, confirmed not sucker, and need to get a boost to get those ohko's on things like xerneas, Kyogre an others even after small chip. Why would i ever use this when Tangrowth can do it's job but more well, and provide way more utility. Speaking of tangrowth...

B- to A- If Tangrowth has million number of fans i am one of them. if Tangrowth has ten fans i am one of them. if Tangrowth has only one fan and that is me. if Tangrowth has no fans, that means i am no more on the earth if world against the Tangrowth, i am against the world . I love Tangrowth till my last breath.. Die Hard fan of Tangrowth. Hit Like If you Think Tangrowth Best wall & Smartest In the world

This mon is so so good dude it's truly the hero of the new world order. A fantastic Groudon check, Zygarde check, Zekrom check, THE premier Zacian pivot, which is a near impossible task for just about anything else besides amoongus, which i also feel is under rated but tangrowth does alot more than it in most cases. A zacian pivot thats damn near perfect at its role, does NOT belong anywhere near fcking Giratina-Altered and highkey is a beautiful existence. Speaking of Giratina too...

B- to C Don't lie to yourselves, when's the last time this boy say use. Caly-G forcing yveltal on every team truly fcked this thing and it's superior cousin, and btw they shoulda given all 3 of the dpp mascots dragon dance dont @ me, u know im right. Btw what does this thing wall and setup on, and in what scenario will it ever win, please tell me cuz im looking and im not finding. Your brother by the way...

B to B- Similar reasons as its worse bro, this things best trait was its a fantastic don check and fogger, while getting an oppurtunity on a good amount of arceus forms at worst. No arceus, Tangrowth exists for don along w Buzzwole and ZyGOD. Also can't get dd, roost, scale shot or NOTHIN. IT DESERVES DRAGON DANCE MAN COME ON. Until then however... this mon kinda cheeks.

C to C+/B- Tangrowth but its (worse) roles change somewhat, Exchanges beating zygarde groudon and zekrom for a niche against xerneas and a 100% accurate sleep move, while still doing well on Zacian makes me say its better than trash ass lugia. Because lugia serves absolutely NO purpose.

C+ to C/C-/D This mon is undeniably terrible. Its so so passive it never accomplishes jack that any role it can fill can't be done by others but way better. Groudon Check? Tangrowth n zygod, while being able to drop it on tang instead of just fazing, while zygarde can neutralize and still cripple things with glare, while still not making necrozma want to come in to take it. Xerneas? Ho-oh and Necrozma would service you fine, while still being good. Rayquaza? Ain't nobody using rayquaza right now son, worry about the zekrom that will rip this thing so many new holes spongebob would be jealous. I truly would rather use naganadel over this thing. I might be reaching rn with a D rank potential proposal but seriously it's so bad it deserves a drop to C at BEST.

Now... For my big one.

A+ to S This pokemon can do so many things and do it all well. I may have larbered Tangrowth as a fantastic check but that doesn't mean its always free to easily beat it. but a subtoxic set could be evd to live uninvested grass knot with a sub and now your golden. Thousand Waves + Coil scaleshot/ DD arrows are absolutely terrifying and kinda can just cheat the game and skip to a win and there aint SHIT to do bout it really if it can trap free setup. This ignores alot of its other sets too.

Glare is the best move in the game by far, and thousand arrows is a close second. So this shitter casually has the two best moves in the game. Ain't got many great twave absorbers and glare is like that dialed up to 100. Truthfully this a pokemon that while its got answers, i think it's the most versatile threat in the tier due to how its checks usually change. Tangrowth is solid vs sub dd glare but sub dd toxic is a problem, and waves is a finished game without growth/leech. Phys def xerneas is a solid set but its hard to justify alot of the time, but it's just not common enough, but it beats all zygods without terrible luck, but everything usually has a generally almost perfect counter, don't mean its good. Man magearna is terrifying in OU but shedinja beats it! Also has the haze glare support which is really solid if you can get it to zygod and once its at full you wont kill it with a don anytime soon. It's so verstatile but it's in my eyes so good because unlike some others it doesn't feel forced into a role. Yveltal is easily the best mon to me but it being forced into a role holds in back alot. Zygarde isn't as effective as yveltal but it's really really good.


Personally i do feel we could use an S and an either S- or S+. I say S- because that feels more raw and it reminds me of Gliscor for some reason.

Either way i do feel it'd go like this

S



S-




Yes Zygarde is better than etern dont @ me. Also a couple things i dont wanna really talk but i can agree with it

S to A+
A to A-
B- to B

Now that this is done, i can finally go start worshipping cthulu for giving me the luck for getting Zydog reqs and tiering contributor for me.
Thank you for telling me to nominate Zygarde to S btw lord Cthulu
 

Manaphy

Throughout heaven and earth, I alone am family guy
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I disagree with the above quite a bit particularly on the issue of Zygarde, I think the mon is quite a bit overrated and I want to give my reasons why. Just to have a comparison point; while don is another mon I am known for liking, I do think it should be ranked higher than Zyg and I'll give some of my reasons why below:

To start off, Zyg is often considered by far to be the most "annoying" mon in the tier, and it's pretty easy to see why. It often relies on Glare to get things done, and losing to Zyg just because you happened to get parad when he subbed is a pretty lame way to lose. It can fish for subs a lot of times thanks to Power Construct. In addition, there is the "demon" zyg set consisting of waves,scale shot, coil and rest; this is another annoying set because it can often just autowin some games. You can easily feel robbed because you just happened to switch something wrong in on the demon set and autolost from there. Because of all of this I think the opinion of Zyg in general is often overblown simply because of how damn annoying the mon is. However, I don't actually think it makes the mon insanely good like others think.

For one, having a cleric greatly weakens Zygarde's ability to actually make progress. I think this point is particularly salient because many, many players skip out on having a cleric on their balance teams. It's kinda your fault if you decide to run Grass Knot for the 1 in a billion Tyranitar your Calyrex will run into and thus lose to Zygarde, when you could have ran Aroma which has utility against almost every team in the meta. Xerneas is another big cleric, and it in particular has a fantastic matchup against Zygarde, and no, I'm not just talking about the rare Phys Def Xern, as Aroma fits fantastically on Geo sets as well. Blissey can also easily fit Aromatherapy and run Ice Beam to force Zyg out. You can even run Heal Bell as a utility option on certain Gothitelle sets. And while Arrows does get neutral damage on the vast majority of the tier, it's really not a strong attack even when boosted; thus, it's not like you typically have to aroma many times before Zyg is no longer able to threaten you.

The second point I want to make is about defensive utility. I think this is another point where Zygarde's prowess gets overblown, as Zygarde seems like a mon that should have tremendous defensive utility given Power Construct and it's HP stat post-transforming. However, when you actually analyze it, it simply does not perform as well as you'd imagine. For example, let's analyze the Groudon matchup. Let's take the best case scenario and use the very defensive Coil Glare Rest set. This set seems great against Groudon, being able to paralyze and coil against it. The thing is that, LO Groudon has a huge chance to just OHKO Zyg straight-up with Precipice Blades:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 204 HP / 248+ Def Zygarde: 394-464 (96.5 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO.
Another very common set in the Lum Berry set, which will just eat away a Glare for free and proceed to get to +4 and kill you the next turn. If Groudon happens to have a Polish up already, even if you Glare Groudon, Groudon will still be faster. The best chance Zyg typically has in this scenario is to hope for Pblades misses. The offensive Zyg sets just lose outright. It's not like this is an uncommon scenario either, you can see this interaction with my game with Solo from MW.
Let's take another one of the most common breakers, Zekrom. It will blast through any offensive zyg set, and defensive sets will typically lose to LO sets. This is not to mention Draco Meteor which will batter any Zyg and is becoming an increasingly viable option as a way to hit Tangrowth.
I would say Zyg's best role is its ability to adequately check Marshadow, but this is really only limited to the defensive set, as the offensive sets which have no recovery besides lefties and construct can be broken:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 16 HP / 36+ Def Zygarde: 305-360 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is, of course, not to mention the other top offensive threats such as Zacian, Xerneas, Kyogre, Eternatus, and Calyrex, all of which can break through quite easily. Offensive Dusk Mane sets, while they don't love paralysis, can threaten to smash through Zygarde if Zygarde ever tries to damage it due to Weakness Policy. Even some more niche stuff like Caly-G, Darm, and Urshifu can put in work against it, opening up your defensive cores.
I am omitting the haze set which is quite frankly not optimal and seems like a worse Luna/Lugia.

As for the demon Zyg set, in its purest form it's a match-up catch. As I said before, the set is heavily dependent on what happens to come in on it. What if your opponent happens to go to their Whirlwind Ho-Oh on your waves? Now you've not only made no progress, but have also revealed what the set is and will likely not be able to do much with it for the rest of the game.

All of this typically leaves me big questions as to why I would run Zygarde on my teams over, say, Groudon. For one, don with it's lack of Dragon-typing actually checks Zekrom very well, and you will not be caught as hard from random Ice-type attacks. You can even have some defensive utility against Zacian. In fact, I would say Don just straight-up has more defensive utility than the offensive Zygarde sets. But most importantly, it'll actually be able to break through against balance teams with brute force instead of relying on status and luck, especially if the opponent has a solid cleric. Offensive Zyg sets suffer from a lack of defensive utility and being unable to break through solid defensive cores with clerics, not to mention having to be very wary of status due to lacking Rest, and while defensive Zyg sets do have more defensive utility, it still struggles to deal with the major offensive threats and breakers of the tier, and it has a very difficult time breaking through increasingly common defensive mons such as Tangrowth and Lunala.

To support my argument even further, I'd like to point out how Zygarde has had win rates of around 40% for quite a long time, which is honestly decently low considering how often the mon is used. Never have I seen a mon that is so hyped and simply just not having the results to back it up. Round 3 of SSNL had Zygarde at a 36% (!!) win rate, meanwhile Groudon was nearing 65% win rate. Round 4 wasn't kind to it, either. As I said before, I think the annoyance factor of Zygarde pumps up its image in people’s head. I think a major part of Zyg’s low win% is how Zygarde has absolutely no role on HO teams, which have been becoming more and more common as of late. I think S rank represents mons who you would have to seriously consider running on every team no matter the team playstyle/archetype and I don't think Zygarde fulfills this role at all. I believe Zyg deserves A rank and while I don't expect this opinion to be common or agreed upon by the majority of players quite yet, I hope my post will help give you a differing perspective on an often hyped and hated-upon mon.
 

AM

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LCPL Champion
:slurpuff: > :shuckle: Better Web setter can force stalemates with opposing webs due to Magic Coat, utility in Yawn is very underrated forcing free turns in your favor. Shuckle Webs also at the mercy of Taunt Gothitelle much easier to utilize Webs with Puff barring Scarf Tricks.

:eternatus: Down to A+ it's not better than the 3 others in S, the offensive variants are very good very strong but defensive sets are mostly Goth food barring Dragon Tail which exert no real offensive presence and at the mercy of other dangerous offensive threats. It's a shaky check to Kyogre as is with the inception of the Block / CM set and even then already shaky requiring some very good predictions to not get steam rolled.

B ranks: Not sure what's going here like Excadrill is just sitting there by itself and I dont think its that much better than most things in B like Tyranitar, Grimmsnarl, even Calyrex-Ice. Grimm holds screens together in one of the few offense styles that doesnt feel like its at mercy of a Ditto revenge kill and it was spammed a lot in Seasonal as well the Froslass squad. Perhaps just move them up in B+? Steelskittys old argument of not being able to use Calyrex-S is fair but Trick Room Ice dunks on all forms of offense and Ditto counterplay used to keep some nasty stuff in check. I dont think Giratina-O is very good granted Shadow Sneak is nice utility for busted Calyrex-S but kind of whatever here.

Speaking of Ditto it should be moved up as well as Tangrowth, with Tang being a more obvious raise. I didn't even know Lando-T was a mon in this tier until I skimmed through the thread for the first time. Zacian should probably be S because it's super constraining to the tier similar fashion to Calyrex and pretty straight forward to utilize but thats a personal stance dont care if it's in A+/S either way.
 

Lacus Clyne

Given-Taken
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I don't know if there is any point in posting here as the meta might change depending on the suspect test but I decided to do it anyways to give my input about the current VR.

B- is obviously way too low for this Pokémon but blowing it up to A- would be a bit exaggerated as they are a lot of ways to play around this Pokémon. Especially the Pokémon that its suppose to check can cheese it as Tangrowths SpD isn't that high or simply stall it out till it dies. Typical examples are Weather Ball/Magnet Rise Zekrom or Sub + Toxic Zygarde. In my opinion this Pokémon should be at the top of B+.

Dracovish deserves a slight rise to B+. In contrast to the other Pokémon in B it is actually more useful then you think. The typing lets you soft check Kyogre variants and punish/revenge kill you back. I don't think I need to talk about its sheer power as it is already obvious.

Slurpuff and Shuckle are the only Sticky Web setter that are useful to me. The variety of utility moves + a momentum gainer in Misty Explosion is what seperates Slurpuff from the rest. With that reasoning it should be next to Shuckle in B-. Interesting could be Imprison Ribombee as a counter measure against opposing Sticky Web, but the lack of momentum gain except U-Turn makes it bad. Thats beside the point though.

A rather small nitpick but Lunala should move below Blissey. I don't think its better as its heavily reliant on its item and gets crippled once it gets any kind of status. I haven't seen any offensive variants as their is no need with Calyrex-S around. Having all the Pokémon with Knock Off around doesn't really favor it at all. Blissey on the other hand is literally a sponge with way more utility. It's defintely A- worthy though.

I don't know if it is considered a niche but I feel like people are missing out on this Pokémon. Garchomp's speedtier is actually amazing and pairing it with a move like Scale Shot just to raise its speed even further is really noteworthy. Not saying that it should place high in the VR as it lacks the natural bulk if you compare it with Groudon.
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
Yahallo!

Throughout the course of the past few months I've been laddering this tier for a while on the odd downtime I had from Anime, among other things.

A+ -> S

Top tier offensive threat that defines how majority of teams are structured, mandates Phy-def Necro-DM on basically every non offense team, to even somewhat deal with it,. CB Zacian rewards good prediction from the better player and a overwhelmingly powerful offensive threat and checks to it are rather flimsy. It functions in a similar vein to how Zacian-C did, but with more item freedom, lower speed tier and lack of steel typing, despite this its truly the top offensive monster along with Calyrex-SR and defensive backbones are centered around dealing with both these Pokemon and have a huge amount of pressure on their structures. Furthermore the combination of Xerneas + Zacian-H is honestly the most threatening offensive combo out there and people should try more teambuilds with it.

A -> Bottom of A+

Zekrom usually feeds off how teams have to be structured, being a very effective winning condition, and has a huge matchup advantage vs a good handful of teams, such as your generic balances, which exist for a reason. On top of this, Zekrom is a top offensive threat, an amazing pick for offense teams. I honestly feel like its more consistent overall than Gothitelle as a team member of removing specific defensive pokemon to allow others such as GeoXern or Zacian to win condition, providing better defensive utility and not as matchup volatile over Gothitelle. allow others such as GeoXern or Zacian to win condition. It also acts as a fringe offensive answer to Kyogre, due to its typing, which helps out offense teams a lot.

A- -> B+ (below Excadrill)

I really don't like Blissey as a defensive pick in this tier, it always leads to icky team builds where Spdef Eternatus + Yveltal is usually a superior core, and doesn't sink as much momentum and provides more offensive stick, especially on balance, Blissey has to really juggle items, Boots for hazards, Umbrella for Kyogre or Shed Shell to avoid being trapped. I honestly feel Blissey is a much more niche defensive pick than it is currently represented and most teams are better off using the other options (Ferro/Etern/Yveltal/ for the types of Pokemon it is able to check.

Final nomination: Swap Shuckle and Slurpuff

Both are Sticky Webs users and serve similar purposes, but I feel Slurpuff is honestly the most consistent sticky web user right now, being more consistent at keeping Webs on the field, which is the most important thing for a sticky webs team. Misty explosion denies defog and Yawn bothers switch ins, access to Magic Coat and Endeavor allow for less predictability. shuckle can final gambit, but it doesnt really have the speed tier and ends up losing webs to Defog Yveltal easier. ppl argue that shuckle can pack SR too, but it can't really afford SR imo and is kinda strapped for utility moves.
 
Yahallo!

Throughout the course of the past few months I've been laddering this tier for a while on the odd downtime I had from Anime, among other things.

A+ -> S

Top tier offensive threat that defines how majority of teams are structured, mandates Phy-def Necro-DM on basically every non offense team, to even somewhat deal with it,. CB Zacian rewards good prediction from the better player and a overwhelmingly powerful offensive threat and checks to it are rather flimsy. It functions in a similar vein to how Zacian-C did, but with more item freedom, lower speed tier and lack of steel typing, despite this its truly the top offensive monster along with Calyrex-SR and defensive backbones are centered around dealing with both these Pokemon and have a huge amount of pressure on their structures. Furthermore the combination of Xerneas + Zacian-H is honestly the most threatening offensive combo out there and people should try more teambuilds with it.
Even if i agree with most part of this points of this, Zacian have some serious problems when we talk about choice lock sets (aka banded cause scarf is such a terrible waste of pokemon that should be illegal) first Zac cant really spam hes moves to take KOs, what im saying? well imagine you have Ho Oh in front of Zacian and you have both Necrozma Dusk Mane and Tangrowth in the back, well what do you do? For both parts are kinda hard to figure it. Firts if you click wild charge and he changes to Tang, you take rocky helmet damage, wild charge recoil and the next turns you have the risk to get hazards damage, or you can predict and click close combat or playrough to take the ko... you see the problem? you click play rough infront of Ho Oh just cause you know he is gonna switch but this is a really bad situation cause you alredy loses momentum cause tang dosnt get KO by play roguh and then you can go for DM and you take a lot of chip damage cause Rocky helmet. This is the problem for choice Zacian, you cant really punish switchs or take KOs cause your moves arent the most spamable think in the game. And SD just have the same problem but worst, cause if Ho Oh decides to stay you take damage, from sacred fire, toxic and you cant KO tang with play rough at +2. And SD alredy suffers more from recoil as if you take the KO with wild charge, you are alredy dead waste for the rest of the game. I think Zacian is a scary wallbreaker but have some serious problems as she cant spam moves and she really hates any chip damage, and if you are runing boots... you lose A LOT of damage if you want to sweep.

Yahallo!

A- -> B+ (below Excadrill)

I really don't like Blissey as a defensive pick in this tier, it always leads to icky team builds where Spdef Eternatus + Yveltal is usually a superior core, and doesn't sink as much momentum and provides more offensive stick, especially on balance, Blissey has to really juggle items, Boots for hazards, Umbrella for Kyogre or Shed Shell to avoid being trapped. I honestly feel Blissey is a much more niche defensive pick than it is currently represented and most teams are better off using the other options (Ferro/Etern/Yveltal/ for the types of Pokemon it is able to check.
For this... Yeah Etern plus yveltal is a really strong core but thats the problem... is a core. Blissey is really good by hymself and he can just blanck check any special atacker in the tier, keep momentum, set rocks, celeric support dam even have confide so he take out that infamous set from Kyogre block. Blissey is not the best pokemon in the tier, but is something that just fit on your team if you want to check top threat breakes as Meteor beam eternatus, Xerneas and Kyogre. Dont think deserves to be below A tier. Dam even blissey can soft chek SR if she uses trick or astral barrage.
 
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Garrett

Banned deucer.
Garchomp - Unr. to C-: Reliable speed tier for setting up rocks, and SD + Scale Shot sets are overlooked on Hyper Offense builds (Jolly +2 Life Orb can OHKO Lunala with 5 hits from full, somehow). Ground typing that's faster than Groudon and Zygarde provides a rare niche, so it should be ranked.

Heatran - C to C-/D: Fairly useless mon outside of walling Eternatus; it still gives free momentum to just about everything else in the tier. It's dead weight otherwise--its one role is overrated and it's extremely hard to justify this on a team.

Chansey - Unr. to C-: This smaller blob is a better special wall bar covering offensive Kyogre, and fulfills all the other roles Blissey does pretty much identically. I think its use in Flying Economy confirms that it's good enough to be ranked. I'd argue C- is a comfortable place for this "rare but acknowlddged" niche mon.

Shedinja - B- to B: Here's a more controversial one. Shedinja is good, resilient, and is the paradigmatic example of what role compression can be, taking on Kyogre, Xerneas, and most Zygarde, while "offensively revenging" Calyrex-Shadow. Love it or hate it, seeing this in team preview requires one to play smart and resourcefully.

Melmetal - Unr. to C-/D: It can serve as any of a Trick Room sweeper, a Physically defensive surprise (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-546753 lol), or a mon EVs to stop SD Zacian/Geo Xern dead in its tracks. I've really enjoyed running T-Wave Melmetal as it makes progress vs. NDM/Ogre and shreds the rest of the tier.

Operation fill C- is a go.
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
It seems my points about Blissey don't seem to be explained in the way I liked. The problem with Blissey is balance teams are strapped for slots and I don't like how it seems to overlap quite a bit in teambuilds. Maybe I'm potentially biased. Blissey has inherently always been a niche pick, its mainly for fatter teams, which have been traditionally more matchup specific team picks throughout the generations.

By teambuilding selection overlap, I see how balance and fatter teams are structured. Those kind of teams basically mandate Yveltal + Eternatus + Necrozma-DM (YEN) in my opinion, Blissey just feels like extra defensive security against Pokémon Yveltal and Etern already cover along with the niche of providing Aromatherapy/Teleport/confide and Healing Wish (one HO specific build) the problem with Blissey is Hooh, Zygarde-C, Winning conditions like Caly, Zacian, GeoXern etc are all valuable Pokémon on these structures.

I'd rather build a team personally with more offensive presence and more defined winning conditions than include a Blissey which will provide me with some defensive overlap and a momentum sink, Like I said maybe I'm just biased since I'm the kind of player who barely considers stall or Blissey teams in their tournament prep. hell, if you want extra Kyogre etc security, there's also Ferrothorn which doesn't overlap as much, provides teams with Spikes utility which is honestly huge and helps out Ur win conds, and leech seed.

idk it just doesn't seem to define as a A rank Pokémon to me, I think B+ is very fair for what it is. I think a good stall is also rather hard to build and be consistent in this tier. I'll be honest though I can really get behind Manaphys Blissey HO, that is one of interesting quirks I like and how it can be included into a team.
 
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Can we talk about this guys?

:tentacruel: C- to UR: I dont see any reason to use this thing at this point of the gen. Toxic spikes? Eternatus, Toxapex or Naganadel. Bulky water type? Kyogre, Toxapex and even Gastrodon. Some what special defensive mon? Just use Ferrothron, Eternatus, Blissey or even Shedinja. And no, Rapid Spin is not a real reason to put this in C-

:corviknight: C- to UR: After the DLC 1 i don think i see any utility for corvinight besides be a some what check to Groudon, Necrozma Dusk Mane and even Marshadow, but outside of that i think all of that mons can over pass this thing without to much effor. Also this is just a one trick pony, cant run some nice options on his sets like body press with iron defense if he needs to use roost and defog to have some what utility for the tier. Its heavily outclassed by Ho Oh and other physical walls like Buzzwole or even Tangrowth wich offers more utility for the team.

:xatu: C- to UR: I dont think this is the first option for some one when you think in a magic bounce usser... Cause Mega Diancie is not in the game anymore. Poor matchup against DM the main rock setter of the tier. 0 utility besides teleport (Wich as fragile as it is donst really work) To terrify from knock Off and the defensive utility he provides is close to 0. Legit use Espeon over this think, at least she can use Yawn to punish switchs and have mystical fire.
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
I honestly think Xatu is fine where it is for what it does. Thee problem with Espeon is it's bulk is virtually non existent, so it does not stick around for long and Xatu with Helmet is a nuisance for rocks NDM, and Max defense Xatu is rarely rolled by NDM, it's faster and can stall out sunsteels with Roost while NDM gets forced into moonlights from Rocky helmet Dmg.

Though I do admit there isn't much of a use for Magic Bounce right now, it's great for players who spam webs as it literally denies every webs setter from getting webs bar Galvantula really. it's got a small niche on CB Ho-Oh teams, like the team Pohjis used in Championship finals. Xatu has a very small niche and is kind of a matchup fish pick, but I don't think it's straight out unviable, it can be easily defined as C- and stay where it is.
 
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Audino - Unr. to C-: A Calyrex-S check I bet most of you have never seen. With Klutz, it's not vulnerable to trick like Yveltal, and completely stonewalls mono Astral Barrage Cal, without being crippled by trick like fellow blob Blissey. It can also provide team support with knock, twave, heal bell, wish and yawn. However, it possibly 2hko'd by specs psyshock and cannot ohko Cal with knock. Overall niche but effective pick.

252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 186-219 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Audino Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 224-264 (65.6 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
I think that after the ban of goth magnezone needs to be on the vr because 1. it does not face competition as a trapper with goth
2.ndm cand do shit to it
3.it can trap the offensive ndm too in unlike goth making it useful in some HO matchups
4.its niche doesnt not end in trapping ndm as it can trap ferro,check zekrom,check calyrex-ice and some groudon in some special cases(definately not good at this)
5.magnezone can also beat a specs dialga stuck at bad move
 

Maxomega

supra ludio
Hey everyone, I'd like to write some thoughts about the current Viability Rankings:

  • :suicune: From Unranked to C-/C
Thanks to a great 100/115/115 bulk and its ability Pressure, Suicune can do a pretty unique role in the Ubers metagame: a PP staller one. With the combination of Substitute and Protect, Suicune can waste opposing moves while being able to set-up thanks to Calm Mind. Moreover, having access to a single Water-typing and Scald, Suicune doesn't fear many Pokemon in the Ubers tier and can burn physical attackers, allowing it to set-up easier. Then, Suicune can completely 6-0ed teams which aren't prepared or haven't a strong physical attacker that can break Suicune's Substitute even after a burn.
Therefore, I think Suicune deserved a place on the VR.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Substitute
- Protect

The investments in Speed allow Suicune to outspeed no speed Yveltal and then burn it. The rest is put in HP and Defense to maximize Suicune's bulk.
However, you can play a 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD spread or a 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe to improve Suicune's bulk (while outspeeding no speed bases 90 for the second one).

  • :zacian: From A+ to bottom S
Zacian, as its crowned form before, is a metagame defining Pokemon. With the second faster speed of the metagame, a base 130 Attack raised by one stage when sent on the field (it's virtually a 220 base Attack stat), a 92/115/115 bulk allowing it to hold a large majority of non super-effective attacks (even with no investments), a useful Fairy-typing against Dark and Dragon-types, in addition to a great movepool (even though it's not large): Zacian is a major threat that everyone has to consider when building a team. Moreover, even its checks such as Necrozma-DM or Tangrowth can be 2HKOed if Zacian is Choice Band and locks itself on the right attack.
Therefore, I think Zacian deserved a place in the S part of the VR, alongside other metagame defining Pokemon.

  • :blissey: From A- to A
With the highest HP stat in the game and one of the highest Special Defense stat, Blissey stands out as an incredible special wall (if not the best). It is able to handle one of the most feared Pokemon for slow teams: Choice Specs Kyogre. This Pokemon can just spam Water Spout and clean teams that haven't a Pokemon able to outspeed Kyogre and weakening or KOing it. Thanks to the brand new item: Utility Umbrella (:utility umbrella:), Blissey is able to do what it isn't able to in past gens: walling Choice Specs Kyogre. In addition to that, Blissey is a great utility Pokemon, with access to Stealth Rock, Aromatherapy, Teleport, Confide (allowing it to wall GeoXern with Rest or CM Kyogre), Thunder Wave or Healing Wish (for HO teams). Then, despite awful Attack and Special Attack stats, it's able to do decent damages with Seismic Toss. Overall, Blissey is a wall to the large majority of special attackers which can be found in Ubers, and isn't just a wall as it's useful for the team.
Therefore, I think Blissey deserved a place in the A part of the VR.

  • :landorus: From C to C+/B-
Thanks to a large coverage, its ability Sheer Force paired with the Life Orb and a good Attack and Special Attack stats in addition to a good Speed, Landorus stands out as a powerful wallbreaker in the Ubers metagame. It's able to destroy the majority of slow teams in Ubers, and paired with ParaSpam: it can also break teams with faster threats. However, it requires to have a good support and defensive core, as Landorus hasn't a good bulk and is therefore vulnerable to faster offensive Pokemon.
Therefore, I think Landorus deserved a higher place in the VR.
 
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Nominating :ss/victini: to C+/B-

This pixie might not be that good in ou but I am sure it's too underrated in ubers.

Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Final Gambit / Trick

Victini @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Zen Headbutt / Glaciate
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Trick Room

For sure one would think this mon isn't worth believe me I thought the same at first but then later I got to know that this mon is totally worth cause the trick room set 2hkoes anything in the whole meta except either eternatus or zygarde(if u run glaciate u are walled by etern and if u run zen headbutt u are walled by zyg) and yeah it's somewhat walled by zekrom. So like I think a mon which has just one wall in the whole meta is definitely good.

Q- And what about the 100 base attack?

A- it may seem to hit like a wet noodle at the first glance but the 100 base attack doesn't really matter much due to the huge powered moves. And of course sun+v-create is crazy 405 powered move which is scary.

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas in Sun: 357-420 (90.8 - 106.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 237-280 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 265-312 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Victini: 181-213 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian in Sun: 358-423 (110.1 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 238-282 (73.2 - 86.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes.

2 times stealth Rock damage and it's doomed.

252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Victini: 356-420 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Victini: 356-421 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 328-387 (97.9 - 115.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Sun: 369-433 (92.7 - 108.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 210-248 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 282-334 (82.6 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Victini: 351-414 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zekrom in Sun: 172-203 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 252-296 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

8 SpA Victini Glaciate vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 200-236 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Maybe that would be a 3hko counting the power construct but zyg no more walls this thing

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Ice: 378-446 (93.5 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO. Meh anyway dies after rocks

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Groudon in Sun: 229-271 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Groudon in Sun: 301-355 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk Black Glasses Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Victini: 366-432 (90.5 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 280-331 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So yeah the trick room set is great as a counter to xerneas and a one time zacian check. It also works as an anti web instrument when used at the right time. Victini appreciates sun a lot lot as zekrom doesn't wall it anymore. Last of this topic is that v create's speed drop helps sometimes as u can outspeed tangrowth after -1 in trick room.

Coming to the scarf set now victini uses its ever good scarf mon speed to outspeed gdarm and kyogre and revenge kill them. U turn is a ever good move. Tho the scarf set cant hit zygarde and eternatus for good damage it can make them of no use by tricking it's choice scarf same applies to zekrom. Scarf victini ohkoes zacian in sun and has a chance to ohko xerneas in sun after rocks. Final gambit has its uses like koing zekrom etc. Tho as per me trick is of much more use. The scarf set has some drawbacks like it's rocks weak and lacks bulk unlike the tr set but yeah it's made for revenge killing purpose so those things shouldnt matter much.

Q- Is this a joke?
A- absolutely not :)

Sure building victini might be a bit hard but it's worth it. I just started laddering 3 days ago with it so I haven't made it as far but yeah I have reached 1600 losing just 2 matches since 1300 and I am still grinding to reach the top 10!

 

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Aberforth

is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
Palkia down to B.

This thing is just a paper pokemon. If you get every turn right and hit all your moves, its quite threatening and a good stopgap kyogre check but in practice it just doesnt work well. Through most wanted it was brought twice, and didnt win, and i've gone through Fc's posts about Seasonal usage to conclude it has been brought 44 times from rounds 1-8 and only won 15 games. A 34% winrate over that many games is not what you'd expect from an A- rank mon.

I also dont think it actually does the job as a kyogre check all that well. Without recovery, it just gets worn down over time until it cannot answer Kyogre at all reliably, and just doesnt deal with it nearly as well as Eternatus does. Offensive Palkias on the other hand strongly dislike Blissey being good, as it means they need to drop a move for Focus Punch, and will get answered by any Eternatus very reliably, given how relatively easy Dragon Stab is to punish in a tier where Xerneas and Zacian love the thought of a free entry.

Even as a rain-abusing Water/Dragon type, I genuinely think that if its a tournament game, I'd almost certainly bring Dracovish over it.
 
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  • :zacian: From A+ to bottom S
Zacian, as its crowned form before, is a metagame defining Pokemon. With the second faster speed of the metagame, a base 130 Attack raised by one stage when sent on the field (it's virtually a 220 base Attack stat), a 92/115/115 bulk allowing it to hold a large majority of non super-effective attacks (even with no investments), a useful Fairy-typing against Dark and Dragon-types, in addition to a great movepool (even though it's not large): Zacian is a major threat that everyone has to consider when building a team. Moreover, even its checks such as Necrozma-DM or Tangrowth can be 2HKOed if Zacian is Choice Band and locks itself on the right attack.
Therefore, I think Zacian deserved a place in the S part of the VR, alongside other metagame defining Pokemon.
About Zacian-H I quite agree especially than with the nature Adamant + Choice Band he literally reaches 886 in attack. This Pokemon, it is more than capable of 6-0 someone if the of Zacian-H player uses the correct attack every time.

That's nice to hear, it's been more than 2 months since last update. Also hope to see Calyrex-SR suspect test asap.
I would also like a suspect test of Calyrex-S it could be nice.
 

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