Other Current Metagame trends

[DC-Shadow_Blaze]

AV Azumarril does a remarkable amount of work, often serving as an emergency patch to defensive cores in the case of a stray crit.

The ability to force switches into Knock Off is very valuable, especially when a poke's STABs are so threatening. Since I've been seeing less MegaVenu, Azu's utility has gone through the roof, especially in conjunction with support such as Wish (on balanced)/Healing Wish (on offensive) to give your little tank a new lease on life.

The CB set has fallen to a distant third in terms of usefulness (there, I said it, get @ me, Raptor) because once you run your protocol to remove the possibility of Belly Drum variant, it's almost a sweet relief when you see that it doesn't switch moves, even if it takes a bit of risk to achieve that solace.

Bottom line, if you want a hole puncher, go CB; those in need of a Team Player go for AV.

Belly Drum is for the tyrants among us.

As for trends, I've noticed far more balanced Rain. It's not just slapdash sweeping anymore, showing a paradigm shift back to Gen 5 sensibilities.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

Banded Extremespeed is on the rise.

 

[rob.]

More offensive Deoxys-S are being used as mid-game cleaners. Watch out for it, after a nasty plot it's a huge threat because of its blistering speed. Most of them carry Stealth Rock or Low Kick, Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, (Filler).

There's also a knock off variant that carry's knock off for defog latios/latias and utility since the move is op.

 

[Andrew]

Hey guys, I just want to bring this topic of "metagame trends" back up and speak generally about a couple of points (not specifics like "x pokemon is starting to carry y move"):

First off, I see from my point of view, the skill level of the ladder increasing dramatically over the past three months. Whereas I reached decent ranks with a couple of ordinary teams that *may* have been able to go further, I have now been playing commonly in the 1500 ranks while testing teams and changing them up p much every match to try to get the flavor of what I really want my team to do to have an enjoyable, exciting match. I've tried Bird Spam, DeoSharp, slightly original stall teams, and lots of balance/bulky offense teams, even some hyper offensive set up teams, and none of them imo are quite as enjoyable as a bulky offensive team that is able to turn on a dime to address threats, as well as to sit back and laugh at the opponents attempts to try to break through. This kind of team imo is hard to pull of, but very rewarding to play.

I see a lot of general offensive teams in the 1500 range, and I think it is bc a lot of people don't want to have to resort to birdspam, deosharp, or full stall to be successful. HOwever, I have seen some very cool teams, such as Itoi6, lil manaphy, unt joo, superpascal, randomspanishguy and lots of others. The ability to break away from the mold and create a team that deals with common threats is excellent and very underated, and I think in this point in the meta it is the driving force as the previously common archetypes have become common and then countered in their time, and now the counters must be countered by something new, yet familiar.

Sorry if this isn't making sense, my words are kind of leaving me, but if there is anyone who would like to test teams with me in a friendly environment without the violence of the ladder, please feel free to PM me. I can't guarantee I'll be interesting, but I think/believe that a huge part of the evolution of the meta involves playing helpful matches with friends in a context of learning rather than destroying. I think this is where the stallwarts of team creation get their inspiration (such as tfl, fingerscrossed, dice, masterclass, just to name a few off the top of my head) and this kind of learning environment shouldn't be ignored. Just my way of trying to kick myself into action. peace.
feel free to ignore this post as it's mostly bullshit q.q

 

[Chompy]

Call me a noob, but what is birdspam?

 

[Air]

Call me a noob, but what is birdspam?

Using two of Talonflame / Staraptor / Pinsir together to slowly break down the opponents flying resists, and eventually sweep.

 

[doughboy]

Andrew eh to be honest I think the metagame is getting really stale

First of all, the amount of Deoxys hyper offense teams on the standard ladder is getting pretty ridiculous, especially in the upper levels of the ladder. I played against it 3 times in a row against 3 separate people and its just so boring. But why not run Deoxys offense teams? You got so many great offensive pokemon out there that can tear teams apart (Mega-Pinsir, Charizard X, Lando, etc.). Top that off with SR+Spikes or dual screen support that can be pulled off consistently, you have easy to make teams that consistently win.

These two combined make balance teams incredibly difficult, almost impossible, to pull off. So the most viable strategies are heavy offense, which packs all of these big threats, or full stall, which has just enough durability and slots to stop the big threats. You can also run full baton pass to punish teams that don't carry Prankster Taunt or Haze lol. Overall, this is incredibly polarizing to any other type of strategy you can run. I hate to make obnoxious fancy comparisons, but it is like disruptive selection where the factor is all these incredibly powerful pokes.

That being said, it is nice to see that defensive teams are diversifying from Skarm + Chansey + VenuTran + Quagsire teams. Charizard X, Mega Scizor, and even stuff like Gengar have had there time to shine on defensive teams. The same I can not say about offensive teams. The largest variation I have seen is dual screens used as opposed to Spikes to take advantage of phenomenal set up sweepers. DeoSharp teams and Pursuit support + wallbreaker (Lando-I, Charizard Y, Specs Keldeo) teams are as strong as ever.

Basically there are 3 pokes defining (not the most powerful necessarily) the metagame right now: Deoxys- D /S, Bisharp, and Chansey. The Deoxys formes define suicide lead offense, both SR + Spikes and dual screens because of there huge movepool options and stats. Bisharp defines hazard offense and trapping offense (latter also includes Gothitelle). It's Pursuit kills or chips away at Pokemon that only have a very small pool or one pokemon as a counter: eg. Chansey / Latias for Landorus-I / Charizard Y / Keldeo or Aegislash for Mega Medicham / Mega Scizor / Mega Gardevoir. Chansey is literally holding stall together being one of the only pokes that can hold its ground against Landorus-I, Charizard Y, and Tail Glow Manaphy.

Basically the major new stuff that has occurred:

• Taunt + Wisp Gengar with some defensive investment; Superpower Deoxys-D; Skarmory with no hazards with Taunt+Defog
• Deoxys sometimes using Dual Screens as opposed to SR + Spikes on HO
• Stall teams breaking away from Mega-Venusaur and playing around with Charizard X and Mega-Scizor
• Breloom has gone up in popularity; Rotom-W, Mandibuzz, and Manaphy have a much smaller presence in OU than before
• Baton pass being a huge bitch oh wait that always has been the case...

 

[koista12]

I agree. I have tried to make teams that aren't deosharp, but I always end up asking myself why I wouldn't use deosharp. Just jumping on the bandwagon here.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

You don't need Deosharp. You just need some form of Deo to get anywhere in this meta unless you're running stall lol. Also Deo-S' revenge killing set is so phenomenal mid game that I'm surprised not everyone is running it.

 

[Alphanex20]

You don't need Deosharp. You just need some form of Deo to get anywhere in this meta unless you're running stall lol. Also Deo-S' revenge killing set is so phenomenal mid game that I'm surprised not everyone is running it.

It's possible that offensive Deo-S doesn't see a whole lot of play since it is easily picked off. You still have tons of priority in the metagame with things like Bisharp (who can also Pursuit-trap you), Talonflame (Banded/LO hits sting, and it can always expect the switch and U-Turn/Roost), Mega Scizor (who is seeing more play on stall teams), Mega Pinsir (who's had his ups and downs but is still pretty good if you know what you are doing), and Azumarill (Deo-S cannot OHKO the AV set and Banded will probably wallop you).

TBH, I have been seeing stall teams with things like M-Scizor, Azumarill and even Talonflame (in my case) with the idea that you stall things down and use priority to pick them off. It's like how most stall teams packed Scarfers before for the same reasons, except with M-Scizor and AV/Lefties Azumarill you can change moves and are bulky as hell to boot (not to mention both have knock off utility). I will not lie, I have not once seen a single non-LO Deo-S since Pokebank came out, everyone uses Deo-D for hazards and it's not unbeatable since knock off ruins it (either killing it or removing its anti-setup item).

But you are right, the only team with no Deo that has worked for me is a stall team. Everything else needs either LO Deo or Suicide lead Deo + Bisharp.

 

[Rotosect]

Andrew eh to be honest I think the metagame is getting really stale

First of all, the amount of Deoxys hyper offense teams on the standard ladder is getting pretty ridiculous, especially in the upper levels of the ladder. I played against it 3 times in a row against 3 separate people and its just so boring. But why not run Deoxys offense teams? You got so many great offensive pokemon out there that can tear teams apart (Mega-Pinsir, Charizard X, Lando, etc.). Top that off with SR+Spikes or dual screen support that can be pulled off consistently, you have easy to make teams that consistently win.

These two combined make balance teams incredibly difficult, almost impossible, to pull off. So the most viable strategies are heavy offense, which packs all of these big threats, or full stall, which has just enough durability and slots to stop the big threats. You can also run full baton pass to punish teams that don't carry Prankster Taunt or Haze lol. Overall, this is incredibly polarizing to any other type of strategy you can run. I hate to make obnoxious fancy comparisons, but it is like disruptive selection where the factor is all these incredibly powerful pokes.

That being said, it is nice to see that defensive teams are diversifying from Skarm + Chansey + VenuTran + Quagsire teams. Charizard X, Mega Scizor, and even stuff like Gengar have had there time to shine on defensive teams. The same I can not say about offensive teams. The largest variation I have seen is dual screens used as opposed to Spikes to take advantage of phenomenal set up sweepers. DeoSharp teams and Pursuit support + wallbreaker (Lando-I, Charizard Y, Specs Keldeo) teams are as strong as ever.

Basically there are 3 pokes defining (not the most powerful necessarily) the metagame right now: Deoxys- D /S, Bisharp, and Chansey. The Deoxys formes define suicide lead offense, both SR + Spikes and dual screens because of there huge movepool options and stats. Bisharp defines hazard offense and trapping offense (latter also includes Gothitelle). It's Pursuit kills or chips away at Pokemon that only have a very small pool or one pokemon as a counter: eg. Chansey / Latias for Landorus-I / Charizard Y / Keldeo or Aegislash for Mega Medicham / Mega Scizor / Mega Gardevoir. Chansey is literally holding stall together being one of the only pokes that can hold its ground against Landorus-I, Charizard Y, and Tail Glow Manaphy.

Basically the major new stuff that has occurred:

• Taunt + Wisp Gengar with some defensive investment; Superpower Deoxys-D; Skarmory with no hazards with Taunt+Defog
• Deoxys sometimes using Dual Screens as opposed to SR + Spikes on HO
• Stall teams breaking away from Mega-Venusaur and playing around with Charizard X and Mega-Scizor
• Breloom has gone up in popularity; Rotom-W, Mandibuzz, and Manaphy have a much smaller presence in OU than before
• Baton pass being a huge bitch oh wait that always has been the case...

As I mentioned in my post here I believe Deoxys-D is the responsible for the stale metagame we have right now.
Deoxys-S is nowhere near as reliable as Deoxys-D as a suicide hazard lead for the reasons I mentioned, so while I'm not outright advocating a Deoxys-D ban, it would be productive to have a suspect test without it and see how things play out.
Let's assume for a second that Deoxys-D is found to be the main reason behind HO's dominance and gets banned, as a consequence balance teams would become more viable, and since such teams usually can afford carrying disruptive strategies stall teams hate (such as Scarf Gothitelle) I think it would balance things somehow.
Honestly at this point a Deo-D suspect test seems inevitable.

 

[jbtc10]

As I mentioned in my post here I believe Deoxys-D is the responsible for the stale metagame we have right now.
Deoxys-S is nowhere near as reliable as Deoxys-D as a suicide hazard lead for the reasons I mentioned, so while I'm not outright advocating a Deoxys-D ban, it would be productive to have a suspect test without it and see how things play out.
Let's assume for a second that Deoxys-D is found to be the main reason behind HO's dominance and gets banned, as a consequence balance teams would become more viable, and since such teams usually can afford carrying disruptive strategies stall teams hate (such as Scarf Gothitelle) I think it would balance things somehow.
Honestly at this point a Deo-D suspect test seems inevitable.

Deo-S can actually have similar reliability as a hazard setter if you put a focus sash on it. Deo-D rarely gets up more than SR + 1 layer of spikes, and with a sash set on Deo-S, you can usually accomplish that same feat without also having to worry about being taunted or 2HKO'd by things like Gengar or 1HKO'd by Offensive Scolipede before you can do anything. Deo-S is also better at using Screens, so it can increase its bulk with them first before setting hazards to make it easier for a sweeper to then come in right afterwards and set up. Banning just Deo-D wouldn't fix anything, it would just shift straight to Deo-S who is nearly as good, and even in some cases better at the role than him as he's more unpredictable due to increased offensive capability and speed.

 

[vyomov]

Interestingly, I've always preferred Thundurus-I as a Defiant sweeper over Bisharp, simply because almost everyone is running some form of fighting-type coverage/bisharp counter, but very few actually run a counter for physical Thundurus-I - who is equally dangerous because of his higher speed tier and the pure surprise factor for most who haven't seen the set before.

 

[s_aman]

Interestingly, I've always preferred Thundurus-I as a Defiant sweeper over Bisharp, simply because almost everyone is running some form of fighting-type coverage/bisharp counter, but very few actually run a counter for physical Thundurus-I - who is equally dangerous because of his higher speed tier and the pure surprise factor for most who haven't seen the set before.

Yeah, i used Defiant Thundy and it surprised a lot of people. It got me quite high on the ladder (top 100).But, i restarted using Bisharp when i came to know about the AV set. It is better at pursuit trapping Lati@s. Yes, it struggles against defensive teams. But who cares when offense is so much more prevalent. AV gives him actual oppurtunity to switch into Latios and is also quite helpful against Aegislash. Defensive Defoggers can be managed with offensive pressure and Taunt.

 

[the-bumper-car]

I know it may sound repetitive, but I think the blame for the stale metagame falls squarely on BP teams. HO is the playstyle that requires the least amount of tweaking to win consistently against BP, while BP murders Stall and Balance.

 

[MegaMogwai]

You don't need Deosharp. You just need some form of Deo to get anywhere in this meta unless you're running stall lol. Also Deo-S' revenge killing set is so phenomenal mid game that I'm surprised not everyone is running it.

I disagree. I've never run Deoxys, and I do just fine. Deoxys Speed as a revenge killer is great though, no doubt about that.

 

[jbtc10]

I know it may sound repetitive, but I think the blame for the stale metagame falls squarely on BP teams. HO is the playstyle that requires the least amount of tweaking to win consistently against BP, while BP murders Stall and Balance.

Stall teams still have some decent weapons against BP and a well built one will always have at least a fighting chance against them. One of the best is arguably Ditto since it's also really good against offense as well, so it kills 2 birds with 1 stone, which is always something you want rather than diluting your team to deal with just 1 relatively uncommon (but threatening) playstyle.

Personally, I don't blame any one pokemon or playstyle in particular for the relative blandness that is the current state of the meta, I mostly blame Game Freak for giving us so few new usable pokemon in this generation. The only new toys OU got was Talonflame, Aegislash and Greninja. All the others (the megas) are just broken versions of old shit, so they don't really feel new and you could argue that most of them haven't really contributed in much of a positive way either, since many of them are so strong that they force you to play a very narrow number of answers for them. Yeah, there a few other things from lower tiers like Chesnaut which are theoretically usable, but they still don't have the level of influence they need to make much of an overall impact. BP is kind of annoying and many argue for a nerf (which I'm neutral about, don't really care too much either way), but even if it were gotten rid of, still not much would change in terms of fixing the stale state imo.

 

[Alphanex20]

Stall teams still have some decent weapons against BP and a well built one will always have at least a fighting chance against them. One of the best is arguably Ditto since it's also really good against offense as well, so it kills 2 birds with 1 stone, which is always something you want rather than diluting your team to deal with just 1 relatively uncommon (but threatening) playstyle.

Personally, I don't blame any one pokemon or playstyle in particular for the relative blandness that is the current state of the meta, I mostly blame Game Freak for giving us so few new usable pokemon in this generation. The only new toys OU got was Talonflame, Aegislash and Greninja. All the others (the megas) are just broken versions of old shit, so they don't really feel new and you could argue that most of them haven't really contributed in much of a positive way either, since many of them are so strong that they force you to play a very narrow number of answers for them. Yeah, there a few other things from lower tiers like Chesnaut which are theoretically usable, but they still don't have the level of influence they need to make much of an overall impact. BP is kind of annoying and many argue for a nerf (which I'm neutral about, don't really care too much either way), but even if it were gotten rid of, still not much would change in terms of fixing the stale state imo.

Speaking of BP, am I the only one confused as to where the suspecting of it went?

Anyway, I personally thing that Deo-D is partially to blame for the staleness, since HO is, frankly, not that hard to build (Deo+Sharp+4 setup sweepers), and not that fun to face (I have beaten it a lot but my point still stands) since you NEED Knock Off + Rapid Spin/Defog to stand a chance. Even then, with defog you need to use skarmory or something obscure to not get smashed by Bisharp, and the only viable spinner for defensive teams I have seen is Excadrill (and a lot of HO teams run balloon Aegislash to spinblock it). Overall, though, it isn't really that bad of a meta, IMO, just the same things arranged 20,000 different ways.

And Ditto doesn't counter BP since they love to sub on you.

 

[jbtc10]

Speaking of BP, am I the only one confused as to where the suspecting of it went?

Anyway, I personally thing that Deo-D is partially to blame for the staleness, since HO is, frankly, not that hard to build (Deo+Sharp+4 setup sweepers), and not that fun to face (I have beaten it a lot but my point still stands) since you NEED Knock Off + Rapid Spin/Defog to stand a chance. Even then, with defog you need to use skarmory or something obscure to not get smashed by Bisharp, and the only viable spinner for defensive teams I have seen is Excadrill (and a lot of HO teams run balloon Aegislash to spinblock it). Overall, though, it isn't really that bad of a meta, IMO, just the same things arranged 20,000 different ways.

And Ditto doesn't counter BP since they love to sub on you.

I wouldn't mind an actual suspect test for BP tbh.

Mega Blastoise is also a good spinner and is really good against DeoSharp in particular because of how it destroys Deo, Bisharp and any Ghost they may have, and fairs pretty well against most of the other common members you see on those teams as well.

Ditto does help counter BP, because Stall has this magical move called Seismic Toss, which is guaranteed to always break every Sub except for Vaporeons, which doesn't matter too much either because every time Vaporeon makes one, it gets hit, and then when it BP's out, it gets hit again and broken, allowing Ditto to come in and do his magic if they decide to try and boost to kill your Chansey, and in the meantime, you just keep spamming Seismic Toss to wear them down which makes Ditto even more effective since they are being worn into 1HKO range for when you transform. Obviously, it's no guarantee and you still need to play smart and adapt to the situations in the game, but the point is that it does give you a very powerful tool to win against them with, and if you play your cards right, it generally will.

 

[Stoo]

the same things arranged 20,000 different ways.

yeah this is a pretty accurate description of OU atm, i feel like every other team im facing in 1800-1900 is sand rush drill with ttar lead to combat deosharp

 

[Jukain]

this isn't a deo-d/s suspect thread, but i will say these mons are definitely responsible for the staleness in offense atm. deosharp + keldeo/landorus + mega sweeper + 2 fillers is just so good, there isn't that much reason to run other stuff from a ho perspective at least. these teams are also ideal for the ladder because they make games quick and ridiculous offensive cores supported by hazards just dominate. i've talked to a bunch of people and there's a lot of sentiment that the deoxys formes, at least deo-d, are unhealthy for the meta, and imo part of why less offensive builds have more trouble. it's also a part of what basically requires hazard control in this meta, because without it you can't fight a team with sr + spikes up on the field and ridiculous offensive mons abusing them.

talking meta trends, deo-s is probably the best singular pokemon in ou right now. it requires literally zero support to function and is enormously threatening to offensive teams, while having versatility to handle all kinds of threats with varied movesets, whilst providing sr support for its team. it obviously has flaws but these are so few. there are also certain things that have seen some use lately such as a defensive rocky helmet deo-s and even screens that are, too, very solid. there's so much it does in one teamslot, as a supporter, revenge killer, and devastating offensive force that is dominating the meta atm.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Stall teams still have some decent weapons against BP and a well built one will always have at least a fighting chance against them. One of the best is arguably Ditto since it's also really good against offense as well, so it kills 2 birds with 1 stone, which is always something you want rather than diluting your team to deal with just 1 relatively uncommon (but threatening) playstyle.

Personally, I don't blame any one pokemon or playstyle in particular for the relative blandness that is the current state of the meta, I mostly blame Game Freak for giving us so few new usable pokemon in this generation. The only new toys OU got was Talonflame, Aegislash and Greninja. All the others (the megas) are just broken versions of old shit, so they don't really feel new and you could argue that most of them haven't really contributed in much of a positive way either, since many of them are so strong that they force you to play a very narrow number of answers for them. Yeah, there a few other things from lower tiers like Chesnaut which are theoretically usable, but they still don't have the level of influence they need to make much of an overall impact. BP is kind of annoying and many argue for a nerf (which I'm neutral about, don't really care too much either way), but even if it were gotten rid of, still not much would change in terms of fixing the stale state imo.

chestnaught, sylveon, goodra, and diggersby tho are all quite usable
Also few other fringe usable things: hawlucha, trevavant, barbaracle
That and besides mega lot of old pokes got new toys or ways to play with: weakness policy, boosted knock off

DeoxysS while good, I feel is lacking, it can't do much do defensive teams besides taunt, offensive teams beat it with priority (unless it runs extremespeed in which case lol)

Deosharp while not broken or anything imo is just boring, but I feel its less prevalent now then it was a couple months ago.

One thing I'm seeing a lot around 1600-1800 is Tyranitar, Talonflame, Excadrill along with usually Aegislash, Greninja, and RotomW, but occasionally something else.

 

[Pyritie]

Personally, I don't blame any one pokemon or playstyle in particular for the relative blandness that is the current state of the meta, I mostly blame Game Freak for giving us so few new usable pokemon in this generation.

Ignoring mega evolutions, I think most of gen 6's new pokemon are about on par with the gen 4 meta. Gen 5 brought a ton of power creep and I think that might be why so many of the new pokes are pretty mediocre in comparison, since a lot of gen 6 was about returning to old gen stuff (like the constant gen 1 pandering), and maybe GF was trying to tone down the power creep after the mess that was gen 5? Who knows

 

[Rotosect]

talking meta trends, deo-s is probably the best singular pokemon in ou right now. it requires literally zero support to function and is enormously threatening to offensive teams, while having versatility to handle all kinds of threats with varied movesets, whilst providing sr support for its team. it obviously has flaws but these are so few. there are also certain things that have seen some use lately such as a defensive rocky helmet deo-s and even screens that are, too, very solid. there's so much it does in one teamslot, as a supporter, revenge killer, and devastating offensive force that is dominating the meta atm.

Deo-S either runs a LO attacking set that relies on stat-dropping moves or a Focus Sash+entry hazards set that is ultimately worse than Deo-D's. It has a vast movepool but lacks the stats and typing to fully take advantage of it, so those two sets are the most effective. It is in no way the best pokemon in OU and certainly not any harder to deal with than the other S-rank pokemon such as Aegislash (who just needs to switch one move to completely change its set of checks and counters) and Deo-D itself.

 

[Duck Chris]

Speed really is the name of the game in HO. Sand rush excadrill, Tailwind on talonflame, fast sweepers like Deoxys-S and Thundurus are everywhere. Choice Scarf is back, and it's taking names. Seems like you need to be able to reach 420ish speed or at least have priority to sweep these days. I don't see Terrakion much at all, Volcarona is pretty much absent, a lot of mons that were once fast are now slow.