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Defining the NU Tier

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weatherelitefour said:
For now the hypothetical NU tier looks good to me, except I'm wondering if Uber viability is included in this.

In that case, Seaking should definitely be removed from NU.

If not, then oh well.

I don't really care, just pointing it out.
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Uber viability has no real meaning for tiers, Cherrim is commonly used in Uber Doubles with Groudon.

blasphemy1 said:
You do realize that Pidgeot is more offensively capable than Fearow, right? Sure, it has Featherdance to work with, but STAB Brave Bird is nothing to forget. Fearow must work with Drill Peck...

I also have no idea why Golem is NU? With all the bug types, its 110 base attack and STAB rock attacks is going to be way too powerful. 130 base defense is very good, too good for NU. There are pokemon who do its job similar, like Steelix and Rhyperior(if BL is allowed in UU), but Golem has a few noteworthy options. First of all it has a much better attack stat than Steelix, and its advantage over Rhyperior is Explosion. There is really no reason to move Golem down to NU as you are just allowing him to sweep everything with Rock Polish. Who cares if he isn't used much in UU? Isn't that what the game is for? Using subpar pokemon?
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Then it would go to the NU banlist. Rhyperior will never be allowed in UU by the way. Also, once NU is made, testing will be done to determine if things are broken, because therorymon can only go so far. That being said, I agree that it seems a bit broken, but maybe the number of special-based waters will balance it out, like Gorybess and Huntail.
 
You can't exactly say Steelix is a completely welcomed member to UU that everyone wants to stay...

Rhyperior has the highest HP and Defense of any Ground type, and an unboosted Attack score rivaling some of the highest attack stats in UU. That's a pretty solid "NEVER GOING TO BE UU" for Rhyperior.

Hint: There's no way one could consider Sudowoodo NU-banned but Golem NU-allowed. that's just wrong, really. Sudowoodo has much worse stats in exchange for a slightly better typing.
 
Yup, I aggree with Chris, why would Sudowoodo be banned when Golem is allowed? Also, is Bibarel weak enough for NU? With some BP Support, it can sweep teams.
 
Chris is me said:
Sudowoodo has much worse stats in exchange for a slightly better typing.
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You forget Wood Hammer, which differentiates Sudowoodo from Golem et al as Golem's UU counters are mainly bulky ground, grass, Blastiose and Solrock/Lunatone. Wood Hammer allows the tree to hit all of those except for bulky grasses. I also belive Rock Polish is the prefered option for both pokemon (although more for Sudowood) as it gives them enough speed to outspeed the majority of the teir while still being able to change between attacks and deal heavy damage.

Now let's take a look at what could pass for Golem/Sudwoodo counters in NU.

Aggron
Ampharos
Armaldo
Banette
Bellossom
Bibarel
Cacturne
Camerupt
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dewgong
Dodrio
Dunsparce
Electrode
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Huntail
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kingler
Linoone
Lopunny
Lunatone
Luxray
Mantine
Mr. Mime
Muk
Noctowl
Octillery
Pelipper
Pikachu
Politoed
Phione
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Raticate
Relicanth
Sandslash
Shiftry
Shuckle
Solrock
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Torkoal
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vigoroth
Wailord
Walrein

Notice out of the 5 I picked out, only Bellosom resists Wood Hammer.

Of course, Golem is still very strong. But my point was that Sudowoodo is not inferior as it can break potential counters so much easier than Golem and is not to be underestimated.
 
You forgot Bibarel.

Max Attack Life Orb Bibarel's Waterfall vs Max HP and Def Golem: 95.33% - 112.09%
Max Attack Life Orb Bibarel's Waterfall vs Max HP and Def Sudowoodo: 54.94% - 64.53%
Max Attack Life Orb Bibarel's Waterfall vs Standard CB Sudowoodo: 71.60% - 84.26%

Bibarel outruns both of them too. You hurt it's feelings!
2rf6mf7.png
See?
 
No, he'd beat the tree with some prediction I guess. Or, come in and revenge kill. Or at least scare it away. You hurt his feelings again! :(

Plus, it can come in on CBTree EQ: 54.18% - 63.88%
That's with Max Defense, no need for +Def Nature or HP EVs. 252 Atk, 252 Def, 6 HP on Bibarel would work great. You'd have to give him CB to get rid of Sudowoodo though. Or give him Lefties. Or someone could give the beaver an new EV spread which let it attack and defend at the same time.

Maybe 52 HP/200 Atk/252 Def would work.

I'll run some calcs.

Assume the Bibarel is Adamant, 52 HP/200 Atk/252 Def and the Tree is the Standard CBer.

Waterfall vs Sudowoodo: 57.41% - 67.59%
EQ vs Bibarel: 51.92% - 61.22%

With Lefties, Beaver would heal back and threaten the tree with a 2HKO.
 
Isaac Cruz said:
You forgot Bibarel.

Max Attack Life Orb Bibarel's Waterfall vs Max HP and Def Golem: 95.33% - 112.09%
Max Attack Life Orb Bibarel's Waterfall vs Max HP and Def Sudowoodo: 54.94% - 64.53%
Max Attack Life Orb Bibarel's Waterfall vs Standard CB Sudowoodo: 71.60% - 84.26%

Bibarel outruns both of them too. You hurt it's feelings!
2rf6mf7.png
See?
Click to expand...

Actaully I left a few "bulky" waters (Phione and Politoed come to mind) off the list as I wasn't sure how well they could whether repeated attacks from both of them. Biberal's base defences and HP are lacking (79 HP and 60 Def) so I doubt it could reapeated attacks using the offensive spread you presented. It's definatly not a counter.

When I was going through the list in my mind, I was using Rock Polsih Sudowoodo/Golem as the set of choice. CB makes it too easy to pick while after a Rock Polish Sudowoodo outspeeds almost everything in the teir apart from Jumpluff (Which is under debate regarding whether otr not it should be UU or NU) and Electrode.
 
Ah, yeah. Bibarel only beats the two if they don't run Rock Polish. I did some calcs on my above posts.

Weird, I've gotten the urge to try and use Bibarel so much. *shrugs*
 
I wasn't trying to say Sudowoodo was NU and Golem was UU. Wood Hammer really makes all the difference in this gen. But still, that doesn't make Golem a worse Pokémon...

Isaac Cruz said:
Yup, I aggree with Chris, why would Sudowoodo be banned when Golem is allowed? Also, is Bibarel weak enough for NU? With some BP Support, it can sweep teams.
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This applies to any usable Pokémon, though Bibarel does have Simple. I think Bibarel makes more sense in NU than, say, Mr. Mime or Pikachu, but we'll have to see how he does in actual NU play rather than just saying that he's a good BP recipient.
 
Are some of you looking at the wrong list? The one I posted a few days ago was what was for the proposed UU BL, meaning everything that isn't in the hypothetical NU and not part of UU's 75%. The real NU list is, iirc, page 5, which I will repost after I sift through a couple of other posts. Golem, Sudowoodo, and Bibarel are all excluded from NU for now, or if god forbid, there is a reason to include them (though I find Bibarel a bit fragile to be able to set all of that up).

And I never saw Obi's thread, but I think I'm now somewhat convinced that there could be something like that, based on this quote:

Look at UU usages. The top 75% are UU, the rest are moved down to NU. However, because NU so far was created entirely on usages in UU, it's not necessarily balanced. So we create a new tier (let's call it... Limbo) and ban those Pokemon that prove to be impossible to have in a balanced NU tier.

The reason we'd need this Limbo tier is the same reason we need the BL tier rather than just banning Pokemon to OU.
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That was the list I posted.

This is the real NU list.
Arbok
Ariados
Bastiodon
Beautifly
Beedrill
Carnivine
Castform
Cherrim
Chimecho
Corsola
Delcatty
Delibird
Ditto
Dustox
Exploud
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Flareon
Furret
Girafarig
Glalie
Illumise
Kecleon
Kricketune
Ledian
Lumineon
Luvdisc
Magcargo
Masquerain
Mawile
Mightyena
Minun
Mothim
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pidgeot
Plusle
Sableye
Seaking
Seviper
Spinda
Sunflora
Swalot
Trapinch
Tropius
Unown
Vigoroth
Volbeat
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Wormadam(all forms)
Xatu
Click to expand...
 
Just thought I would say this is shaping up an awesome NU tier so far. It looks awesome to play. Good job you guys.
 
I already made a team, but I haven't seen garg on Shoddy since that one time. D:

Seriously, some of us should start making teams with the current list so we can accomplish more with actual play instead of theorymon. After awhile, we'll have testing grounds for some controversial ones, although some people have commented that no one wants a mess here like the BL/UU discussion....
 
Believe me, there is no way that Bibarel should be on the NU list (I know it's not on there right now, but some people might think it should be).

I use a very bulky spread, which can actually have things such as a 269 Special Attack Thunderbolt as a 3HKO when factoring in Leftovers. It's really not that fragile when you consider that it really doesn't need any offensive or Speed EVs at all if it's using the Super Fang set.

Sableye is the only Ghost in NU, so that means that everything else will get 50% of their remaining health sliced off by Super Fang. I use Unaware as my ability for Bibarel, so that means that nothing can actually set up on it, unless they're using Agility/Rock Polish. From what I see on that list, very few things can actually do those moves. This is just the Super Fang set. Very few things are going to be able to switch into the thing, and since a lot of the things on that list are extremely slow, they would have to take a Super Fang, and another hit before they can even pull off an attack, which wouldn't do a huge amount of damage either. This also means that it's hard for the opponent to use the slow support pokemon, because Bibarel has Taunt, which totally screws that up. In case you're wondering, the spread that I use now is 252 HP/160 Def/96 SDef with a Careful nature.

There's also the Charge Beam set with Simple that can mess up that entire list due to Bibarel's huge movepool. Remember, with just 1 boost from Charge Beam, with max Special Attack and a Modest nature, Bibarel reaches 458 Special Attack due to the double boost from Simple. Seriously, all this set needs is 1 or 2 turns to get the boost from Charge Beam, and it's ready to sweep the incredibly slow NU with Charge Beam/Surf/Ice Beam/Super Fang, Amnesia or Thunderbolt. The things that are already fast honestly can't do much damage to Bibarel anyway.

Yeah, so please, I could say more about Bibarel since he's been the pokemon that I've tested ever since DP was out, but I can certainly say that he DOES NOT belong in NU at all.
 
I think Kecleon should be removed from the list.

I use it on my UU team with Sucker Punch/Return/Trick/Substitute with a Choice Band, and it does just fine against fellow UUs.

If you let it into NU, that spread will most likely haunt a good percentage of the NUs for eternity.
 
Chris is me said:
You can't exactly say Steelix is a completely welcomed member to UU that everyone wants to stay...

Rhyperior has the highest HP and Defense of any Ground type, and an unboosted Attack score rivaling some of the highest attack stats in UU. That's a pretty solid "NEVER GOING TO BE UU" for Rhyperior.
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Actually, Steelix is part Ground-type, and its base Defense stat is 200. I agree with you though, that Rhyperior is a lot better in terms of HP and Attack. And it has Solid Rock, which makes it definitely banned from UU.
 
I have a freind who uses Absol. I don't care what you say that thing kills me!! He gives it Night Slash and the item "Super Scope" and it crits every other turn. He also knows taunt so I can't poison him. Also trick room makes him a monster
 
Lightsabre said:
I have a freind who uses Absol. I don't care what you say that thing kills me!! He gives it Night Slash and the item "Super Scope" and it crits every other turn. He also knows taunt so I can't poison him. Also trick room makes him a monster
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The item's name is Scope Lens. With Scope Lens, Super Luck, and moves with high CH ratios, Absol has a fifty percent chance of getting a crit.
 
So the current "NU" list stands at?

Arbok - Ariados - Bastiodon - Beautifly - Beedrill - Carnivine - Castform -
Cherrim - Chimecho - Corsola - Delcatty - Delibird - Ditto - Dustox - Exploud - Farfetch'd - Fearow - Flareon - Furret - Girafarig - Glalie - Illumise - Kecleon - Kricketune - Ledian - Lumineon - Luvdisc - Magcargo - Masquerain - Mawile - Mightyena - Minun - Mothim - Pachirisu - Parasect - Pidgeot - Plusle - Sableye - Seaking - Seviper - Spinda - Sunflora - Swalot - Trapinch - Tropius - Unown - Vigoroth - Volbeat - Whiscash - Wigglytuff - Wormadam(all forms) - Xatu
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And these are those falling outside the current UU/BL cut off, and as such are being considered for NU?

Aggron - Ampharos - Armaldo - Banette - Bellossom - Bibarel - Cacturne
- Camerupt - Cloyster - Crawdaunt - Dewgong - Dodrio - Dunsparce - Electrode - Golduck - Golem - Gorebyss - Granbull - Huntail - Jumpluff -Jynx - Kingler - Linoone - Lopunny - Lunatone - Luxray - Mantine - Mr. Mime - Muk - Noctowl - Octillery - Pelipper - Pikachu - Politoed - Phione
- Quagsire - Qwilfish - Raichu - Raticate - Relicanth - Sandslash - Shiftry - Shuckle - Solrock - Stantler - Sudowoodo - Torkoal - Vespiquen - Victreebel - Vigoroth - Wailord - Walrein
Click to expand...

Well there are certainly a fair number of pokemon on that list that could be easily incorporated into the currently proposed tier without upsetting the balance too much ...
 
Well a while back myself and a couple of others player our own version of NU which included

Banette - Bellossom - Dewgong - Golem - Granbull - Huntail - Lunatone - Mantine - Noctowl - Octillery - Pelipper - Politoed - Quagsire - Solrock - Stantler - Sudowoodo - Vespiquen - Victreebel - Vigoroth - Wailord

Several of these pokemon have been "dismissed" by others as being too powerful, however during our games none proved particularly overpowering or dominant.
 
Against each other, I can see why they wouldn't appear so. For example, Bellossom (whom I actually wouldn't have much of a problem with) proves to be an above average bulky grass that walls things like Wailord, Sudowoodo, and Golem.
A quick rundown on my (short) thoughts:
Banette: Can cripple entire teams in NU if used well. Sucker Punch backed by base 115 attack against special threats and WoW against likely slower physical ones make attacking to kill it difficult.
Bellossom: Never had a problem with it, I honestly forgot the argument against it.
Dewgong: Even though nothing except for Seaking (AN' LUVDISC, SI?) really benefits from Rain Dance in NU, there's nothing stopping it from making that team. And nothing really uses Rock moves except for Rock type Pokemon.
Golem: Despite many Pokemon having access to Energy Ball, Golem can prove to be a significant threat in an environment devoid of bulky Grasses and Waters.
Granbull: Either ability can prove to be a threat. 90/75/60 isn't the most pathetic of defenses if it chooses to run Quick Feet, although special HP Fighting that will be run for Bastiodon will hurt it.
Huntail: See Dewgong.
Lunatone: I honestly find Xatu to be a potentially superior Calm Minder (which tells you a lot about Xatu's movepool when I mention a lesser-used set). It will likely end up on the "for playtesting" list, along with Cloyster.
Mantine: Refer to last sentence of Dewgong. Minun would make a solid counter, but what else? Thunderbolt is relatively rare.
Noctowl: I thought you were one of the people who wanted it to stay in UU...? I might be mixed up though. xD I never had any objections to Noctowl and would bring yet another good counter to Specs Chatot, Mothim, etc. And people would stop complaining about Butterfree once and for all (who is absent on both your lists...what is your stance on it?).
Octillery: Would be broken with the many Agili-Passers available, as well as Plusle/Minun gaining Nasty Plot to pass to it.
Pelipper: See Mantine. Also gets better special attack than the former to keep out common and fragile special attackers.
Politoed: As I see it, it can prove to be a difficult wall to break.
Quagsire: Energy Ball is rampant, so maybe....
Solrock: See Golem.
Stantler: I argued for its inclusion, so I can't say much else. Perhaps sifting a few pages back will show some arguments for and against it?
Sudowoodo: See Golem.
Vespiquen: I typed a block of text on her that went beyond having "too good base stats".
Victreebel: Easy Psychic access could help its inclusion. Other than that, I really have nothing to say about it.
Vigoroth: It was on both of your lists.....it already is NU.
Wailord: See Golem, although it runs effectively the same set as in ADV and was considered NU then.
 
I think we should wait until we get an official list of NUs without moving any Pokemon up to the "BL of UU" tier. For every other tier, even UU, we've started out with ban lists. It would be a pretty big mess to unban all BL/ubers and try the same for UU/OU, but since we're just starting NU, why not? It will be pretty easy to tell which Pokemon are overpowered once we start actually playing the tier.
 
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