Definition of an uber

[Azrael]

Iunno if you were being sarcastic, but that is my point. Why are Ubers banned? Because the presence of Ubers in a metagame considerably narrows your options in that metagame. At this point, banning Groudon/Mewtwo/Rayquaza/Lugia/Mew is hypocritical since they don't limit your options in Ubers any more than Garchomp does in OU.

Are you out of your mind?

Firs toff, Garchomp doesn't have any sort of recovery move or trait that he can use to assure that he will get in 3 Sword Dances or 6 Calm Minds, etc. He also doesn't have the initial stats to already do a ton of damage to your team.

There's also no point in making OU the standard metagame then, since OU pokes already have their own tier all to themselves :/. Also, your definition of "standard" is incorrect. Standard is whatever tier is deemed to be standard :/

Um, what?

Standard play has always been the "OU tier." That's why I said this isn't a discussion of tier, because it's understood by many that standard play is anything with the exception of ubers.

I don't want to sound like a "troll" again, but please read my post before you reply to it :/ :/ :/

I know that there's a seperate metagame for Ubers. What I'm proposing is that the seperate metagame for ubers is made the "standard" metagame (which you'd know if you took the time to read what I'm typing ^_^!).

Don't expect that putting a weaboo face is going to strengthen your post, especially when you don't get it.

Standard play is anything with the exception of ubers. This is understood by many of the initial posters in this thread. The inherent problem has always been that uber is loosely defined. That in this gen, there is a trouble in defining what should be uber. Thus, this thread is designed to assure that there is a list or step-process to decide what Pokemon is uber.

I don't think you guys are getting the point I'm trying to make. Stop thinking in terms of RS tiers and just imagine that everything was legal. Why should fifteen or so pokemon be singled out and banned? They don't constrict the metagame and there's plenty of viable pokemon around with them legal, so why does everybody have this urge to ban them?

Because they do constrict the metagame? I've seen Pokemon like Flygon be used in OU in R/S successfully, even though he is BL UU.

Skarmory makes Solrock useless let's ban Skarmory etc etc

Don't simplify my definition. I clearly meant that an uber will replace a plethora of other options. Tell me how Garchomp limits your ability to use other physical sweepers such as:

Metagross
Salamence
Tyanitar
Rampardos
Weavile
Heracross
Aerodactyl
Etc?

While someone like Groudon essentially can dominate over all of those with his already high speed, defenses, attack, and trait that weakens one of his weaknesses.

With ubers the standard game has like 30 to 40 pokes in use,Without ubers the standard game has about 50 to 100 usable pokes.Simple as that

Precisely.

We are talking about standard play?Why use Blissey over Miltank?Why use Swampert over Quag,Whishcash?Hell why use Inferape over Blaziken?Why because they are better.In fact you brought up the best point why use Dragonite when their is Salamence.The better poke is always used more lesser poke

The question should be can common pokes game consistantly stop the poke and does and does poke eliminate a large majority of other pokes from standard game.

I don't understand how you could say your previous statement and then say this and oversimplify what I was trying to elaborate on of what other posters have said.

Ubers tend to eliminate A LOT of other options, not just one.

Imagine, for a moment, that everything considered OU were suddenly uber, and the current UUs were the regular metagame. How many of your arguments against making ubers the "real" metagame and banning anything that still proves completely unbalancing would hold? If your argument doesn't still work, then you must either advocate banning all OUs as uber, or agree that "ubers" should be allowed.

The fact that you already know that OU is considered standard play really just debunks all of this. OU has a lot more options than the uber metagame does, period. There's no discussion to that.

Yes, why use Garchomp with Groudon allowed? I mean, this is why we've banned Salamence and Dragonite, because they make Altaria useless. And why Fearow, Swellow, Dodrio, and Staraptor have been banned, because we should be able to use Pidgeot. That's also why we've banned Swampert, it outclasses Whiscash. This argument can regress until we're down to Ditto, Unown, and Beldum, and then we decide that Beldum's typing is uber, and Ditto has the advantage over Unown because of Metal Powder. Unless you can say why the reasoning stops at the current definition of ubers, this reduction to absurdity holds and is, essentially, the position some of you support if taken to its logical conclusions.

Except ubers ban a lot more options than OU Pokemon do. These are very weak arguments.

Rather than defining uber, how about we define "standard"? In fact, I'd rather define "standard metagame". The standard (OU) metagame is the rule set that will be considered standard, obviously. I say it should allow as much as possible without becoming unbalanced.

Suicune and Milotic have always taken on Ho-oh easily, and Sacred Fire being physical might make that even easier, as the possibility of Thunderbolt or Solarbeam is reduced, and if it is present, will be weaker. Most Rocks with Rest (talk), Aromatherapy, or Heal Bell also stop it. Add in the omni-present threat of Stealth Rock and Ho-oh has to Recover every time it switches in (loses 50%), so no CB / CS / etc. for you, and your counter basically gets a free switch, unless Ho-oh wants to go Kamikaze, meaning suddenly your list of counters can increase to restless things that can OHKO and are faster, like an Aerodactyl. It's walled even better by Kyogre, and Lugia does a good job at stopping it.

How about Kyogre? Latias can stop almost all, unless it's unlucky. Lapras always wins if Kyogre doesn't have Thunder. Quagsire always wins if Kyogre doesn't have Ice Beam. Blissey beats those without Substitute / Rest, so how many moves does that mean? Without Surf, the list of counters suddenly increases a bit (only has Thunderbeam, really). So it needs Thunder, Ice Beam, Surf, Substitute / Rest to counter Quagsire, Lapras, and Blissey, but without Calm Mind, suddenly it's not a threat to Blissey anyway. There's the threat of Choice Specs Water Spout, but if Kyogre takes 25% damage (3 layers of Spikes, maybe? Switch into most any damaging attack?), Blissey is 3HKOed with 252 SDef and Calm (4 HP). Add in Water Spout's low PP (8), and Kyogre's going to have a bit of trouble. There's still, as I said, Latias.

And this limits the metagame to, as Luck said, 15-20 Pokemon instead of 30-40.

A lot of the problem comes from people assuming OU and questioning ubers. They say "If we ban all current ubers but this one, will anything change? If so, keep it banned!" and then go down the list. The problem is, you're eliminating a lot of the counters by arbitrarily removing a bunch of Pokemon from the list of potential counters as you are considering those same Pokemon for unbanning. Whenever you think of an argument against this position, first replace OU with UU and uber with OU. If "only ubers can counter ubers" is your reason to keep them banned, try countering Tyranitar, Salamence, and Metagross with UUs.

It's no arbitrarily. We already know the definition of an uber to be something that lowers our usage of many Pokemon. Ubers do that significantly more than OU Pokemon such as Metagross and such. And OU/UU tiers are also defined by their usage. Venusaur was somewhat viable in OU R/S/E, but there were other options that were used a lot more, so Venusaur was labeled as "BL-OU."

In ADV, we have a list of what, 16-17 Ubers. Today, the ADV Uber metagame has stablilized to were every uber has a counter. See Obi's example of Kyogre having three counters, two of those being non-Uber. Sure, stuff like SD Groudon takes a Lugia to counter, but doesn't CG Mence practically require every team to have Blissey, Cresselia, or Empoleon? You give me an Uber that cannot be countered at all, and then I'll say ban it. The only one I can think of is Arceus, simply because it can be 17 pokemon at once. But wait, doesn't Arceus tell you what type it is? So wouldn't you counter a Ground Arceus like you would Groudon? Look, Arceus already makes there be 17 usable pokemon in the "uber" metagame.

The discussion is what an uber is. The topic initally established my three points, and the added point that it overcentralizes selections (read: Not just replacing one Pokemon with an uber, but replacing many with an uber, and limited counters)

Thus, if you believe CGMence is uber, this topic is open to discuss that. If it really does have only 3 counters, I call BS and think it should be a consideration for uber status.

Also, isn't Uber Metagame an oxymoron? An Uber is something that overcentralizes the metagame, yet a metagame exists with Ubers?

Then in that context, "metagame" refers to the OU gameplay. Don't pick at semantics.

 

[Luck]

I
A lot of the problem comes from people assuming OU and questioning ubers. They say "If we ban all current ubers but this one, will anything change? If so, keep it banned!" and then go down the list. The problem is, you're eliminating a lot of the counters by arbitrarily removing a bunch of Pokemon from the list of potential counters as you are considering those same Pokemon for unbanning. Whenever you think of an argument against this position, first replace OU with UU and uber with OU. If "only ubers can counter ubers" is your reason to keep them banned, try countering Tyranitar, Salamence, and Metagross with UUs.

You have stated what i have been trying say but their is fact that people are power whores will use Kyorge,Arceus,Palkia,Digala,Giratina,Groundon.The theory is sound but some sort limit is needed they are not many combo that can go agianst teams built like that.My suggestion is one uber limit on standard teams that should create best mix.

 

[Surgo]

Hi folks, let's get back on topic. THIS IS NOT FOR THE DISCUSSION OF WHY UBERS IS NOT STANDARD, OR WHY STANDARD IS NOT UU, OR WHY TIERS EXIST, OR WHATEVER. This is about what makes an uber an uber. So stop.

 

[obi]

Are you out of your mind?

Firs toff, Garchomp doesn't have any sort of recovery move or trait that he can use to assure that he will get in 3 Sword Dances or 6 Calm Minds, etc. He also doesn't have the initial stats to already do a ton of damage to your team.

And with the offense of something like Deoxys-F, Mewtwo can't guarantee that it gets 6 CMs. How is Groudon going to get in 3 Swords Dances when I switch to Exeggutor / some random new Pokemon with an Ice move?

Standard play has always been the "OU tier." That's why I said this isn't a discussion of tier, because it's understood by many that standard play is anything with the exception of ubers.

If this is your definition of standard play, your definition of uber cannot be those banned from OU, as that is circular.

Standard play is anything with the exception of ubers. This is understood by many of the initial posters in this thread. The inherent problem has always been that uber is loosely defined. That in this gen, there is a trouble in defining what should be uber. Thus, this thread is designed to assure that there is a list or step-process to decide what Pokemon is uber.

Standard play is the most commonly used rule set, yes.

Because they do constrict the metagame? I've seen Pokemon like Flygon be used in OU in R/S successfully, even though he is BL UU.

Without Tyranitar, many Pokemon would have more of a place. Allowing Groudon would suddenly make Jumpluff, Exeggutor, Vileplume, Moltres, Arcanine, Victreebel, and others drastically rise in popularity.

Don't simplify my definition. I clearly meant that an uber will replace a plethora of other options. Tell me how Garchomp limits your ability to use other physical sweepers...

If it weren't for Tyranitar, that Hippo, a whole bunch of Rock Pokemon, and others would be more useful. If you define uber as a Pokemon that causes 2 Pokemon to be useless (therefore reducing overall usable Pokemon numbers), then Machamp outclasses Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, and even Hitmontop, so let's make him uber, too.

The fact that you already know that OU is considered standard play really just debunks all of this. OU has a lot more options than the uber metagame does, period. There's no discussion to that.

Not at all. I recognize that some people believe alligators live in the sewers of New York City, that doesn't mean it's true. What's considered OU is just what people believe, the point of persuasion is to change people's minds. And there is discussion to that. Allowing more Pokemon does open up more options. Some of those options become less viable, but some new options are created in that place.

Why is it that when it comes to mod servers, there's a huge outcry of "I don't want to play a fan-modified Pokemon", but when it comes to tiering, people say the opposite: "Let's change the game as much as possible with an effort to maximize viable builds, except we're going to arbitrarily stop at some power level."

Except ubers ban a lot more options than OU Pokemon do. These are very weak arguments.

Actually, by definition, uber bans less.

It's no arbitrarily. We already know the definition of an uber to be something that lowers our usage of many Pokemon. Ubers do that significantly more than OU Pokemon such as Metagross and such. And OU/UU tiers are also defined by their usage. Venusaur was somewhat viable in OU R/S/E, but there were other options that were used a lot more, so Venusaur was labeled as "BL-OU."

Why use Walrein, Whiscash, Wailord, Lapras, Vaporeon, Slowbro, Slowking, Dewgong, Quagsire, Feraligatr, Blastoise, Kingdra, Crawdaunt, or Kingler when Suicune, Milotic, Starmie, and Swampert exist? Seems like you're blocking the use in a greater than 1:1 ratio.

The current ubers do significantly more than the current OU, yes. The current OU do significantly more than the current UU, too.




Surgo, this is about what makes an uber an uber. I define an uber as something that unbalances the game, and all things that can exist in a balanced game should be allowed, with the goal being minimal bans.

 

[Hyra]

Hi folks, let's get back on topic. THIS IS NOT FOR THE DISCUSSION OF WHY UBERS IS NOT STANDARD, OR WHY STANDARD IS NOT UU, OR WHY TIERS EXIST, OR WHATEVER. This is about what makes an uber an uber. So stop.

We are saying that nothing makes anything an uber. It's all relative. Metweo is not uber in comparision to Palkia or Groudon, while something like Entei is an "uber" in the UnderUsed metagame. Sure, if all our current Uber tier was standard, you would complain about not being able to use Garchomp, Salamence, or Dragonite because of Rayquaza. But what if I say Swampert is uber because he makes me unable to use Wishcash, Quagsire, or Gastrodon? Do I now have a legitimate case for banning Swampert from Standard play? No, the obvious response is go play UU if you want to use UU pokemon. Well, guess what, that is the same response to the Rayquaza outclasses X,Y,and Z arguement, you make a lower tier for them to compete in.

 

[Azrael]

And with the offense of something like Deoxys-F, Mewtwo can't guarantee that it gets 6 CMs. How is Groudon going to get in 3 Swords Dances when I switch to Exeggutor / some random new Pokemon with an Ice move?

Oh that's a good rebuttal.

But next time, try to use Pokemon that aren't used in RSE uber metagame. ^_^

If this is your definition of standard play, your definition of uber cannot be those banned from OU, as that is circular.

This screams, "I didn't read the full thread."

Surgo, this is about what makes an uber an uber. I define an uber as something that unbalances the game, and all things that can exist in a balanced game should be allowed, with the goal being minimal bans.

I don't think you get it. With ubers, you get maybe ~20 Pokemon that are usable. Without ubers, you get ~30-40 as Luck said.

Now no one has disagreed with the following:

1) Anything that has limited or no counters, and a counter is defined as Jumpman has stated.
2) Anything that has such a varied moveset option that predicting what it might have is next to impossible.
3) Anything that has the original stats to take out a good chunk of your team already.
4) Anything that overcentralizes the use of Pokemon in battling, which really, is the result of the previous three.

Now we know that a majority of Pokemon that have been uber in the past 3 generations have had a base stat total of 600+. I said that we should start from there, and see if its counters are nearly limited to other Pokemon within that base stat range. Then, we should check Pokemon with stats totals lower than that who may be already too powerful to take out with conventional (Read: Under 600 base stat total) means.

Edit: And once again, someone (Hyra) has overlooked ALL the point made so far in the topic. Can a moderator clean this topic up, please?

 

[Problem2]

An uber is a poke that is almost impossible to counter (or impossible to counter), has an extremely high movepool with the stats to use it, and is such a threat that if you don't have it, your most likely to lose.

 

[Fafnir]

An uber is a poke that is almost impossible to counter (or impossible to counter), has an extremely high movepool with the stats to use it, and is such a threat that if you don't have it, your most likely to lose.

Every single pokemon has a counter of some kind. Yes, even arceus.

 

[Hyra]

Okay, I'm goign to list all the Ubers.

1) Arceus Normal
2) Arceus Fire
3) Arceus Water
4) Arceus Grass
5) Arceus Electric
6) Arecus Ice
7) Arceus Fighting
8)8 ) Arceus Poison
9) Arceus Rock
10) Arceus Ground
11) Arceus Psychic
12) Arceus Bug
13) Arceus Flying
14) Arceus Ghost
15) Arceus Dragon
16) Arceus Dark
17) Arceus Steel
18 )8) Mewtwo
19) Mew
20) Lugia
21) Ho-oh
22) Latios
23) Latias
24) Kyogre
25) Groudon
26) Rayquaza
27) Deoxys
28 ) 8) Deoxys F
29) Deoxys L
30) Deoxys E
31) Dialgia
32) Palkia
33) Giratina
34) Darkrai

Those are the guaranteed Ubers if we play with our current definitions. Here are the debatable 600 BST event pokemon that were argued over and will be argued over

35) Celebi
36) Jirachi
38)7) Manaphy
38 ) Shaymin

And then we have Wobbuffett and Wynaut

39) Wobbeffett
40) Wynaut

Okay, next up are the Chlorophyll Pokemon (yes some of these outclass others, they still can be used if you want to):

41) Vilemplume
42) Victrebell
43) Executor
44) Bellossom
45) Jumpluff
46) Sunflora
48)7) Shiftry
48 ) Tropius
49) Tangrowth
50) Cherrimu (Flower Gift, but its close enough)

Now we have the Swift Swim Pokemon (Some are better than others):
51) Seaking
52) Omastar
53) Kabutops
54) Qwilfish
55) Mantine
56) Kingdra
58)7) Ludicolo
58 ) Huntail
59) Gorebyss
60) Relicanth
61) Luvdisc (eh it has Swift Swim)
62) Floatzel
63) Lumineon (See Luvdisc)
64) Toxicroak (Dry Skin gives it back HP at the end of each turn)

Okay, and now some ADV pokemon that were used in Ubers

65) Blissey
66) Forretress
68)7) Skarmory
68 ) Metagross
69) Shedinja
70) Lanturn

Hm... I count 70, not 20. You know what? I'll make it seem like Ludicolo and Kindgra are the onyl good Swift Swimmers and that Tangrowht, Executor, and Shiftry are the onyl good Chlorophyllers. That's 51 pokemon that can compete in Ubers. Okay, I'll remove the 17 Arceus forms and only have 1 instead, that's 35, within the bounds of your standard metagame. I'm excluding stuff like TTar and Heracross that can rape most uber teams. Do not tell me an uber metagame is too restrictive, based on the sheer number of Ubers it cannot be.

Also, I am arguing that nothing fits the uber criterea of:

1) Having limited or no counters- Surely there's one in the list I just posted
2) Has such a varied moveset option that prediction is impossible- I'll give you Mew. Arceus tells you its types and Deoxys E is really easy to counter no matter what
3) Too many base stats- If everything has in the range of 680~ base stats, than that amount of base stats is not too much. This really only applies to Arceus now.
4) Overcentrlizes the metagame- No single uber is so powerful that it takes a team of ubers to kill. This would be legitimate if we tried to unban things, not if we are considering banning things without a previous ban list.

I see your points and say: Is Palkia uber compared to Kyogre? Is TTar Uber compared to Garchomp? Uber is relative. If I say there are enought Ubers that there is a stable and balanced metagame that includes them, they are no longer Uber because they no longer decentralize the metagame they are in.

 

[COalex]

Don't expect that putting a weaboo face is going to strengthen your post, especially when you don't get it.

^_^

This screams, "I didn't read the full thread."

Hi.

Hi folks, let's get back on topic. THIS IS NOT FOR THE DISCUSSION OF WHY UBERS IS NOT STANDARD, OR WHY STANDARD IS NOT UU, OR WHY TIERS EXIST, OR WHATEVER. This is about what makes an uber an uber. So stop.

Well the topic was made to see who should be an uber, so the question is actually "How about nobody is Uber".

I don't think you get it. With ubers, you get maybe ~20 Pokemon that are usable. Without ubers, you get ~30-40 as Luck said.

That's my exact argument except in revers; Ubers opens up room for many, many more UU and BL pokemon such as Shedinja and Exeggutor, wheras they simply aren't viable in OU. Also, in Ubers you don't have to have a precise counter to each threat except maybe CSRayquaza who is a fucking scary beast in and of himself but doesn't actually make Salamence obsolete because he has only 95 (!!!!) base Speed.

 

[Hyra]

That's my exact argument except in revers; Ubers opens up room for many, many more UU and BL pokemon such as Shedinja and Exeggutor, wheras they simply aren't viable in OU. Also, in Ubers you don't have to have a precise counter to each threat except maybe CSRayquaza who is a fucking scary beast in and of himself but doesn't actually make Salamence obsolete because he has only 95 (!!!!) base Speed.

Yay, so my last post wasn't entirely useless. I think the true number is like 20 or so UU pokemon can compete in Ubers, but they have to compete amongst themselves for team slots. Also, you're right about Rayquaza not outclasses Salamence/Garchomp simply because of Speed. I also believe he lacks Focus Punch, Dragonite's main selling point.

 

[Azrael]

Hm... I count 70, not 20. You know what? I'll make it seem like Ludicolo and Kindgra are the onyl good Swift Swimmers and that Tangrowht, Executor, and Shiftry are the onyl good Chlorophyllers. That's 51 pokemon that can compete in Ubers. Okay, I'll remove the 17 Arceus forms and only have 1 instead, that's 35, within the bounds of your standard metagame. I'm excluding stuff like TTar and Heracross that can rape most uber teams. Do not tell me an uber metagame is too restrictive, based on the sheer number of Ubers it cannot be.

~30-40 was an arbitrarily chosen number. Tell me you're not arguing a strawman. :\

It's nice of you to list those Pokemon without including team dynamics, although I suppose I should include that too. Do you really think that listing what appears to be an uber metagame proves anything?

Also, I am arguing that nothing fits the uber criterea of:

1) Having limited or no counters- Surely there's one in the list I just posted
2) Has such a varied moveset option that prediction is impossible- I'll give you Mew. Arceus tells you its types and Deoxys E is really easy to counter no matter what
3) Too many base stats- If everything has in the range of 680~ base stats, than that amount of base stats is not too much. This really only applies to Arceus now.
4) Overcentrlizes the metagame- No single uber is so powerful that it takes a team of ubers to kill. This would be legitimate if we tried to unban things, not if we are considering banning things without a previous ban list.

But then this is why I went with Cromat's post of setting 600 base stats as a first rule. Which you overlooked. The basis of every previous generation's uber status.

I see your points and say: Is Palkia uber compared to Kyogre? Is TTar Uber compared to Garchomp? Uber is relative. If I say there are enought Ubers that there is a stable and balanced metagame that includes them, they are no longer Uber because they no longer decentralize the metagame they are in.

Uber is relative among groups of Pokemon. It's pointless to say that Metagross in RSE is uber in the UU tier. /rolleyes

Edit: Shedinja can compete in ubers? I didn't know that status moves, SS, and Spikes were banned.

Hm.

Edit 2: And it still seems like you are all arguing for an uber metagame, which is not what this topic is about.

 

[Hyra]

Shedinja plays around those moves. It's call Rapid Spin, Weather Ubers, and Switching. He handidly coutners Kyogre and Mewtwo and Lati@s because they can't hit him.

Uber is relative. If our current ubers are no longer uber in relation to each other then there is no ubver metagame.

Banning 600 Base Stat pokemon is abitrary in itself. Okay, so Dragonite, Mew, TTar, Celebi, Salamence, Metagross, Deoxys, Jirachi, Cresselia, Heatran, Darkrai, Manaphy, and Shaymin are all banned even though half of them are currently standard. The realm of 600+ includes 600.

I know 30~40 was abitrary. I'm just showing you that alot more pokemon can compete in Ubers than previously thought. Jumpman's threat list contains 36 pokemon. I believe 35 is one less than 36, therefore the metgame is not too constricting, it simply constricts to different standards.

 

[Azrael]

Shedinja plays around those moves. It's call Rapid Spin, Weather Ubers, and Switching. He handidly coutners Kyogre and Mewtwo and Lati@s because they can't hit him.

I'm sorry, since when was it proven that Shedinja can't compete in the current standard metagame? Your own argument is falsely based.

Uber is relative. If our current ubers are no longer uber in relation to each other then there is no ubver metagame.

This doesn't even make sense.

Banning 600 Base Stat pokemon is abitrary in itself.

No one said that.

I know 30~40 was abitrary. I'm just showing you that alot more pokemon can compete in Ubers than previously thought. Jumpman's threat list contains 36 pokemon. I believe 35 is one less than 36, therefore the metgame is not too constricting, it simply constricts to different standards.

Except that the uber metagame doesn't allow anything outside its "boundaries," I suppose. Go into the RTM forum and see how many teams without those 36 Pokemon can effectively counter them.

Then look at your list.

Big difference.

Really we just need to refine those 4 rules that I previously stated.

 

[obi]

Oh that's a good rebuttal.

But next time, try to use Pokemon that aren't used in RSE uber metagame. ^_^

Try and list counters to Tyranitar that aren't in the RSE OU metagame. I'm not listing many DP Pokemon because I don't know that much about it, but I'm sure I could make this list longer if I did. That being said...

Groudon:
Flygon
Skarmory
Exeggutor
Vileplume
Shiftry
Tropius
Victreebel
Sceptile
Jynx (only vs. Swords Dance)
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Kyogre
Gengar
Sunflora
Unown

Those are the Pokemon that come to mind immediately when I think of things that can counter Groudon.

This screams, "I didn't read the full thread."

I don't mean to sound ignorant, but how?

I don't think you get it. With ubers, you get maybe ~20 Pokemon that are usable. Without ubers, you get ~30-40 as Luck said.

And here I disagree. I've postulated previously that this is false, and now there is an actual list of potentially usable Pokemon, or at least those that increase in possible usage.

 

[Suikama]

Try and list counters to Tyranitar that aren't in the RSE OU metagame. I'm not listing many DP Pokemon because I don't know that much about it, but I'm sure I could make this list longer if I did. That being said...

Groudon:
Flygon
Skarmory
Exeggutor
Vileplume
Shiftry
Tropius
Victreebel
Sceptile
Jynx (only vs. Swords Dance)
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Kyogre
Gengar
Sunflora
Unown

Those are the Pokemon that come to mind immediately when I think of things that can counter Groudon.



I don't mean to sound ignorant, but how?


And here I disagree. I've postulated previously that this is false, and now there is an actual list of potentially usable Pokemon, or at least those that increase in possible usage.

Wow, Unown wins. I can no longer see him as the worst pokemon in the game.

 

[Azrael]

Try and list counters to Tyranitar that aren't in the RSE OU metagame.

If you feel that Tar is an uber, say so.

Groudon:
Flygon
Skarmory
Exeggutor
Vileplume
Shiftry
Tropius
Victreebel
Sceptile
Jynx (only vs. Swords Dance)
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Kyogre
Gengar
Sunflora
Unown

SD or CB? Some of those counters are supposed ubers anyway... we already know that Exeggutor can work in ubers anyway... AA, etc.

And Unown don't count. One lucky battle doesn't mean anything.

And here I disagree. I've postulated previously that this is false, and now there is an actual list of potentially usable Pokemon, or at least those that increase in possible usage.

Postulating on what?

 

[ekans dilos]

This thread has so many discussions going on at once...

Anyway, perhaps this belongs in a thread of its own but, a few people here have made very good points about a particular case: Salamence.

I always thought of an uber as a Pokemon who overcentralizes the metagame. In other words, gives you far less options for a team with good coverage if allowed. "No counter" is pretty broad and somewhat flawed in itself: look at Salamence. It has less options than Arceus, but with the three best sets it can pick (Dragon Dance, but more notably, Choice Band and Choice Specs) it can hurt anything in the game. Not to mention the Choice Band and Choice Specs set pretty much hurt about anything in the game anyway. The same goes to Tyranitar, Rhyperior, arguably Azelf and a couple of others. They don't really have counters, but they're not uber nonetheless. So you'll need a deeper definition.

Sure, stuff like SD Groudon takes a Lugia to counter, but doesn't CG Mence practically require every team to have Blissey, Cresselia, or Empoleon?

I ran into this problem myself recently. I made a team using no major standards and it covered most threats quite well. But then I realized that I had a CSmence could pretty much come in and hit & run my team into oblivion with ease. So I looked at my options for replacements: All I saw was the three above: Blissey, Cresselia and Empoleon. If our definition of an Uber more or less comes down to "something that overcentralizes the metagame," does this particular example not qualify?

Salamence (and a few others) need to have their position revised (or rather defined, since this is a new generation where tiers are not quite set in stone). Of course, then comes the question of "why use sala when you have access to rayquazaa?"... There's always the "Semi-Uber" tier idea -.- I actually like the idea. All the disputed ubers/highest OUs (Ho-oh, Darkrai, Garchomp, TTar, Mence, Azelf, Mew, Wobba, maybe Lati@s...) would settle in here. With these gone from the OU scene, BL could be broken up into OU and UU, and this new tier could become the new "BL Tier" but most people seem to be opposed AND it's still too early to really evaluate whether or not this new tier is needed.

Honestly though, if OU is going to have so many gamebreakers (because IMO anything with only three counters is a gamebreaker), it needs to stop being called "Standard," because as suggested Ubers and UU might make for more balanced, diverse and ultimately more interesting metagames.

And please don't give me the "Blissey and/or Cresselia are on every team anyway" response. That's a load of crap.

 

[Luck]

Why is there standard game and ubers game,why are pokes Banned?

The standard game purpose is to have as much competitive top level pokes as possible.It was clear when gamefreak/nintendo create curtain pokes mew2,lugia,etc they were created to be superpokes not on same level as other pokes,what was also clear to have the best balanced game these super lengendary pokemon need to banned game to keep balance.If you think no pokemon is uber,Even the game makers themselves have the uber ban in the actually game battle towers and some live tournament events.

The real problems appeared with 600 level pokemon where the they are pokes that mess with game like the 670 pokes and pokes that don't.They are couple solutions

1.Anypoke above 600 uber (except slaking and stupid regi).Allow 600 level pokes in play.This probably the simplest solution.They are only three questionable pokes Mew,Deoxys attack and Latias.The question will these three mess up the metagame ?

2.Ban All 600 pokes.Make anypoke that is 600 and above uber.Ends all arguements but elimates alot cool pokes.

3.When we get Diamond/Pearl netbattle/comp. allow 600 pokes in standard play have complete long process where we get rid pokes that are uber.Which what is going to happen anyway.

The real question is do Latias, Latios,Mew,Deoxys LG,FR,E,R, fit metagame because Arcues, Kyorge, Groudon, Ray, Ho-oh, Giratina, Diagla, Palkia and Mew2 aren't going to join standard play anytime soon and T-tar, Metagross, Garachomp, Celebi, Cressila, Manaphy,Jirachi, Heatran, Darkrai, Shaymin, All lengendary trios are already in ingrained metagame or start be ingrained, They pretty much are not going away.It really just group seven pokes to eight pokes determine the uber topic.

 

[Cromat]

Hi folks, let's get back on topic. THIS IS NOT FOR THE DISCUSSION OF WHY UBERS IS NOT STANDARD, OR WHY STANDARD IS NOT UU, OR WHY TIERS EXIST, OR WHATEVER. This is about what makes an uber an uber. So stop.

The two discussions are so close that it makes sense to discuss it here.
Back in RBY or GSC it was easy to tell which pokemon were Uber. Mewtwo and Mew were insanely powerful compared to the other pokemon.
But can we really say the same about Dialga? Dialga is also insanely powerful, but now there are another 20+ crazy powerful pokemon to go with it.
Isn't it absurd that we have 20+ pokemon that are insanely powerful and constrict the metagame?
If there are alot of overpowered pokemon, does it even make sense to call them overpowered?
The fact that when RSE came people started playing the "Uber metagame" seriously, and that an official Nintendo tournament was an Uber one, signals the end of that definition.
Here's another intresting point: during the RSE days there were endless debates about whether to ban Celebi and Jirachi. One of the arguments commonly raised was that Jirachi and Celebi aren't too viable in the actual Uber metagame but they are very viable in the standard one. If they had been banned, they wouldn't be used in either of the metagames. On the other hand, pokemon like Blissey and Metagross which no one thought about banning easily fit in the Uber metagame.
Is Metagross better than Celebi? In Ubers - yes. In standard - no. It's all relative.

When there are a handful of overpowered pokemon it makes sense to ban them and then enjoy a greater variety. But when the variety in the Banned tier approaches the variety in the standard tier, is there really any point to regarding it as the Banned tier?

Now i'm not saying that we should all ditch standard right now. But it is intresting to at least talk about it. I mean, the basic guideline when it comes to all the rules and clauses is that we want to play the game as close as possible to the real one, without it getting dull or just stupid.
There are problems with having Ubers as the main tier. There are alot of psychics and dragons, there's Aruceus and the metagame-staple Attract is all but useless. But it's still an intresting discussion.

 

[ekans dilos]

If anything, blame D/P for introducing about 15 legendaries... Anyway, NO. I don't see ubers ever becoming the standard tier, and it should certainly not merge with standard. That's just ridiculous; most of that tier wouldn't be able to compete and would have to move down a tier... It defeats the purpose and throws everything off balance. Ubers are separated for a reason.

If we can all agree however that the ultimate goal is to have the greatest variety of usable pokes in every tier (diversity = good), and we agree that an uber is a force that overcentralizes the metagame, then IMO we seriously need to remove things like Salamence, who forces everyone to use standard walls just to not get completely owned. What if I don't want to use Blissey and Cresselia like everyone and their grandmother? Tough luck, as long as Mence is around.

Arguably TTar is also overcentralizing as every team has to be ready to deal with sandstorm just because he exists; and a few others such as azelf and the infamous garchomp could prove difficult to deal with. (probably not rhyperior ;P)

And yes, very interesting discussion.

 

[COalex]

If anything, blame D/P for introducing about 15 legendaries... Anyway, NO. I don't see ubers ever becoming the standard tier, and it should certainly not merge with standard. That's just ridiculous; most of that tier wouldn't be able to compete and would have to move down a tier... It defeats the purpose and throws everything off balance. Ubers are separated for a reason

Nobody is trying to get Ubers to "merge" with OU, but I'm arguing that Ubers should become standard. Why not? Every official Nintendo tournament has allowed Ubers, and I'm sure that standard with them would be less constricting than standard play that arbitrarily bans 20-30 pokemon.

The standard game purpose is to have as much competitive top level pokes as possible.It was clear when gamefreak/nintendo create curtain pokes mew2,lugia,etc they were created to be superpokes not on same level as other pokes,what was also clear to have the best balanced game these super lengendary pokemon need to banned game to keep balance.If you think no pokemon is uber,Even the game makers themselves have the uber ban in the actually game battle towers and some live tournament events.

Actually, all the Nintendo tournaments have allowed Ubers.

Why would playing with Ubers be "unbalenced" in the first place, as you're implying? There are plenty of pokemon that do well in Ubers that would never see the light of day in OU. I can't see Rayquaza being harder to counter in Ubers than Salamence is in OU :/

 

[Deck Knight]

SpecsMence could theoretically be countered by Stealth Rock + Protect + a switch. At some point you get up Stealth Rock, and then Specs Mence isn't really free to switch in. Then if you use something like Protect Vaporeon you can see what it uses and switch accordingly.

What are SpecsMence's numbers of a Heatproof Bronzong?

I only have Netbattle's Damage Calc, but Specsmence Draco Meteor on 338 HP(max)/361(max) SD Bronzong is 32-38%. Flamethrower deals 44-52%. Hydro Pump 56-65%.

Bronzong can SR and its a stalling whore so it can also have something like Hypnosis and Light Screen. If your foe assumes Levitate, you can switch it in on Specsmence and survive.

 

[Artillery]

I'm no pro at arguing but here is my argument. We want to have variation in the metagame. But there are so many ubers and standards that we have difficulty with it. So what would be the logical thing to do in this case? We find out what overcentralizes the metagame. We try to dig out pokemon that we 100% know are a defenite, too strong to play competitively without limiting the amount of pokemon. Arceus comes to mind. But what we also want to decide is, what stops it from being there, it's movepool, typing, stats, etc. , and analyze other possible pokemon in that category and ban them too. So what we should do is organize pokemon in the amount of variation that it allows. For example, with groudon, kyogre, rayquaza, and T-tar, we have four different types of teams: Groudon: Grass and Fire, which gets semi-countered by T-tar sandstream teams and kyogre teams that abuse the rain, yet not one is a definete counter to both. But then, Groudon can get KO'd by it's own pokemon that the team is based on. Exxegutor and Vileplume can do well when it comes to this. But where not here to decide on them on specifics, or should we? Should we annalyze the amount of pokemon that join standard play becuase we add one more pokemon until the variety dies down because of one specific pokemon? My 1/2 cent.

My attempt to do something logical here.

 

[Luck]

Nobody is trying to get Ubers to "merge" with OU, but I'm arguing that Ubers should become standard. Why not? Every official Nintendo tournament has allowed Ubers, and I'm sure that standard with them would be less constricting than standard play that arbitrarily bans 20-30 pokemon.


Actually, all the Nintendo tournaments have allowed Ubers.

Why would playing with Ubers be "unbalenced" in the first place, as you're implying? There are plenty of pokemon that do well in Ubers that would never see the light of day in OU. I can't see Rayquaza being harder to counter in Ubers than Salamence is in OU :/

Basically what you are saying Ubers metagame should be called Standard metagame, Standard be called uu . You realize basically arguing nothing,What you want already exists, you are free to play with what ever pokes want to play with in the uber play and guess what 20-30 pokes are only 1s that get used.